Episode Transcript
You know what the good thing is about starting over is that we can start with a joke this time.
Oh, what do you got?
Oh.
I don't know.
Did you gather one while we were doing that?
I thought I'd put you all on the spot and see if anybody can come up with a joke.
There was nothing funny about what just happened.
Or about anything.
I'm trying to think if I've heard a good joke lately.
The only person I hear jokes from is my husband and he uses 12-year-old jokes.
We'll take it.
Like a little bit inappropriate.
That might be our target audience. I don't, we haven't really done a real market study, in depth.
They're mostly about tooting, including pull my finger kind of thing.
Well.
Okay, all right. Okay, all right.
Love him.
Well, we'll put it on his resume to be a panelist sometime. Maybe he can open with us. Well, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. My name is Chris. Dr. Jon is in the studio once again. We're joined with Robyn Nelson, Richelle Walker, and Christina Konrad. Welcome back, everybody.
Welcome.
We are reading in the book of John. We are in chapter 5, and our verses are verses 30-40. I'll read that out of the ESV, but our topic is "witness" today, and that's a word that Jesus mentions several times. So, we'll just keep that in mind as we do this opening passage and then we'll turn it around to the table for opening thoughts.
"'I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,'" and "'yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.'"
So, that was Jesus speaking in John, chapter 5. Our topic is witness, and we'll open it up with opening thoughts around the table.
All right. Yeah, so my opening thought, it kind of, it centers around something I read in, something that J.C. Ryle wrote. It has to do with kind of what you mentioned about, like, there is a lot of mention of the word witness. And so, he kind of goes off of that for a little bit. And he writes,
"In these verses...we see the proof of our Lord Jesus Christ being the promised Messiah, set forth before the Jews in one view. Four different witnesses are brought forward, four kinds of evidence are offered: His Father in heaven, [His forerunner] John the Baptist, the miraculous works He had done, and the Scriptures which the Jews professed to honor. Each and all are named by our Lord as testifying that He was the Christ, the Son of God. Hard must those hearts have been which could hear such testimony and yet remain unmoved! But it only proves the truth of the old saying that unbelief does not arise so much from lack of evidence, as from lack of will to believe."
And so, witness, it's kind of like witness and testimony almost kind of like go hand-in-hand in my mind. And what does it point towards? What Scripture says that the witness points towards Jesus. And so, if we know what is true but we don't say it, then that's something that, that's what witness is, is speaking truth. And I thought Jordan Peterson, he said something kind of interesting to this point, just brief, but straightforward,
“When you have something to say, silence is a lie—and tyranny feeds on lies.”
And I think that, like the Sadducees and the Pharisees, they're kind of a tyrannical bunch. And so, I think that this idea of testifying and witnessing to truth is something that people don't like. And it's not always going to land when we witness about what is truth. There's going to be people that just choose not to believe. That's just the way that it is. They can see all the evidence possible. So, it's not our job to prove to somebody, but it's our job to witness about what we know is truth. Yeah.
Okay. All right, good.
Very well said.
Christina, opening thoughts?
It seems like in the world we live in, a lot of people want to argue, right?
Yep.
And so, you know, we could speak our witness. We could share our testimony. And that can be powerful if there's open hearts. But I really love Saint Francis of Assisi when he said, preach the gospel always and use words if necessary. And I think we're all called to be witnesses as believers, and our witness is powerful, but it, I think, more important than the words we speak is just how we live our life and, you know, the fruit that we bear and the love that we show people.
That's good. Yeah. Good.
That was a shirt you had. You mentioned in a prior episode, too, wasn't it?
You know what's funny is, yeah, that's from the Christmas episode, this last one, is, that's the shirt that I, that was written on the shirt that I got from the Giving Tree.
Oh.
When my family was a little bit poor.
Yep. Yeah. So.
You'll have to check out that episode, Christina.
Synergy. It all comes together.
Alright, opening thoughts, Richelle?
Yeah, I definitely honed-in on John being very focused on talking about witnesses and seeing it reflect in multiple chapters in the Gospel of John. But also, he talks about witnesses in the earth. And, yes, that we are witnesses, but that everything is reflecting our Messiah in many ways, telling the story and whether it's in nature or it's in the testimony of our own lives. And so, the challenge does come back to how are we demonstrating what Jesus did? You know, Jesus saying,
"'I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.'"
And then, you know, in 38 [36], going on to,
I have greater testimony "'than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.'"
And so that challenged me to want to go, okay, why did you send me? And am I hearing you? And am I doing what I was sent for?
That's good.
Yeah.
I love a good mystery. And so, I watch a lot of them, I listen to a lot of them, I read a lot of them. And inevitably, there's always somebody who has to be called up for a witness statement. So, that's not where I landed after this entire study, but that was the first thing that I thought of, was just being a witness and the requirement for a witness really is to just tell the truth and to speak to their experience of a situation.
Sometimes an entire case can hinge on some somebody's testimony. And there's even a lot biblically in Proverbs that, I mean, there's some harsh words for people who give false testimony as witnesses. And so, for me, it just started there as, like, even the legal sense of being a witness is to just speak the truth. And similar to what you'd said is it's not upon, like, it's not our job to convince someone of something, but it is our job to just speak to our experience and live out our experience. And so, I think it takes a little bit of weird, I mean, removes the need to just be a weird Christian, say weird things to people. But I guess, like, you know, hopefully that we are living a life, like Christina said, that someone would be curious about, and then that we just speak to what our actual experience has been in the Lord. And another, I guess, like, kind of side quest that that took me on is that idea of that there are times in, I mean, in the movies and whatnot, where a witness is apprehensive to tell the whole story, because they may have been doing something that implicates them. And I think that similarly, in our walk with the Lord, like, we don't always want to share a full story because we're not always painted in the best light, especially in the beginning. Like, what God saves us from can be sometimes pretty hairy, scary stuff. And so, but it really, in the end, it really does glorify God in it. And our job really is the truth. And that's just kind of where I started. But there's more where that came from. So. Yeah.
And really quick, it's kind of interesting because, like, to that point, when Scripture says God works all things together for good for those who love him and are called according to his plan and purpose is like, yeah, even like, the stuff that you might be embarrassed about, it's like, once it's in God's hands, like, he can do amazing things with it. So, there's no shame in our story, because our witness, that's part of our witness, it's part of our testimony is how far he brought us to. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, he redeems us and gives us a new name or makes us a new creation. That past stuff doesn't actually matter.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
That's the testing, right?
Yeah.
And if we're not tested, we don't have a testimony.
Right. Come on.
Yeah. The word there, the Greek word for witness kind of has its roots in the word "martus" in Greek. And kind of like you're saying the legal implications of that judicially—is how Strong's concordance kind of defines it—kind of adds a little weight to it. And then, of course, where we get the word, English word "martyr" out of that kind of same root, that kind of adds to the importance of it, the gravity of it. It's not something to be taken lightly that somebody is a witness or that something is witnessing. It's a pretty heavy implication there. So, it really is something how Jesus is talking about there's all these witnesses that are supporting him. In verse 34, I thought it was notable that Jesus says,
"'Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.'"
He's referring to John the Baptist. He's saying, I'm going to mention John the Baptist because they're familiar with him. He was a visual example out in the desert, leading people to repentance. He was widely considered to be kind of similar to an Old Testament prophet. I think we've kind of talked about that before too. And Matthew Henry has a commentary on that where he says,
"Christ needs no letters or commendation, no testimonials or certificates, but what his own worth and excellency bring with him; why then did Christ here urge the testimony of John? Why, these things I say, that you may be saved. This he aimed at in all this discourse, to save not his own life, but the souls of others; he produced John’s testimony because, being one of themselves, it was to be hoped that they would hearken to it. Note, First, Christ desires and designs the salvation even of his enemies and persecutors. Secondly, The word of Christ is the ordinary means of salvation. Thirdly, Christ in his word considers our infirmities and condescends to our capacities, consulting not so much what it befits so great a prince to say as what we can bear, and what will be most likely to do us good."
So, what Matthew Henry's kind of saying in that fancy language there, he's saying, he's talking about John the Baptist because people might recognize him and he's doing it for their sake so that they will be saved.
Right.
It reminds me of what Paul says in Corinthians, 1 Corinthians chapter 9, starting in verse 19 out of the ESV,
"For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law...."
And he goes on. He's saying he does what is necessary for the sake of others. And Jesus kind of has that same approach there, where he has the testimony of the Father, the works, and he's gonna—not that he needs the testimony of John the Baptist—but because it might save some more people, he's gonna refer to John the Baptist. And that kind of, to me, that shows the importance of human testimony. Right?
Right.
What do people relate to? What sphere of influence do you have that's unique, to reach other people where that's very meaningful?
Right. Yeah.
Anyway, thoughts on that?
That's really, really good. We all have a kind of like, I guess, our unique brand and our own, like, sphere of influence that we have. And, like, obviously, God could have set this all up however he wanted to, but there's a social element to our existence with each other, and he wants to, he wants us to partner with him. And so, it's pretty amazing how he basically allows us to take part in witnessing and in the testimony because, yeah, we can, I don't know, again, he doesn't need to do this, but he allows us to use, you know, the gift and talents that he's given us, and our perspective and our experiences, to play a role in something so incredible as eternity. So, I just think that's another amazing thing that God allows us to do, is to partner with him.
I mean, our ultimate purpose is to reflect God to whomever in whatever we're doing. Right? So, our human testimony is powerful, but it's actually God who changes people's hearts. It's not our words. And I think it's important that whenever we're sharing testimony, or witnessing, that we reflect God and that Jesus is the hero of the story. Not like, tooting our own horn or like looking at our degrees that we have or the accolades we've accomplished or the titles we hold. Like, it's really how has God shown through that story?
Yeah, he came to be the way to show us the way. Right? And I love how he was such a good teacher. He was always putting them back out there. Now you do it. Now you show it. Right? And he came to be the exact representation of the Father. So, he came to be a reflection in the earth. And then he says, now you do it. Right? Now you reflect me. And so, I just, I think that it was always that he came. I mean, his ministry was so short.
Right.
So, it was always to equip humanity to be the witnesses in the earth.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, for me, it's like God really has been so good to me—like, better than I ever deserved and could ever even imagine. And it gets better and better all the time. And I just think, I want people I know to experience that. Like, I really, really want them to experience the same kind of love that I've experienced and the same kind of joy and just freedom that I found. And so, like, it does feel natural to talk about it, like, and to express to people, like, I know I see you in this hard spot, and like, I don't have answers for you how it came to be, but this is exactly like, God has been good to me and faithful in this area. And so, it kind of is almost just like a natural byproduct sometimes of what God has done. In any other area of our life, that would be a normal thing.
Right.
Like, I don't know. I look at a lot of reviews of things before I purchase. I like, you know, like, I think the power of shared human experience is pretty potent. So. Yeah.
Yeah. And just going back really quick to what you were saying about how witness is like the root, you know, we also derive martyr from that. I mean, if you were to replace every time that Jesus talked about "witness" and replace that with "martyr," I mean, that's another huge element to it. John the Baptist was here for a martyr for me.
Yeah.
And it's like that, the responsibility of witness is so powerful and so heavy, and that's, I mean, this is not a, an easy or simple or safe thing to do, to profess. Because I mean, look at all the disciples. They, like every one of them except for John, were, was martyred. And what were they martyred for? Well, for witnessing.
Yeah.
So that's, it's not, that's not a small thing.
Right.
And it can feel like that sometimes because we live in, like, such a safe place to do so. Like, I mean, theoretically, I know that there's backlash sometimes. And like, I might have a friend who's like, oh, you keep talking about Jesus. And it's more than that, you know, like, but, like, reality is like, I can talk about Jesus all day long, and no one has, like, the right to hurt me physically because of it. We live at a very privileged place. And so, but the reality is a lot of, like, I mean, most of the places in the world, this is a belief that's under attack. So.
This is the reality is martyrdom is unfortunately alive and well. Yeah.
And that reminds me of Peter when, you know that he was faced with that. Right? Right after his, who he thought was the Messiah has been killed. Right? And then he realizes for me to say that, yes, I am one of the witnesses, I am one that was following him, I may get killed.
Right.
And so, at first, he denies him. Right?
Yeah, that's true. It is kind of like going back to like, the idea of like a trial scene or like a movie that has to do with a trial. And you got like, like the mob that's saying, like, if you witness, if you say the truth, we're going to kill you. But then, like, there's the judge that's like, well, you have to tell the truth. And so, then it's like, well, what are you going to decide? Whose leanings? Or who are you going to come under the authority of, the mob, or the bad guys, that are saying, like, if you tell the truth, we're going to kill you? Or the judge that says, well, if you don't tell the truth, there's going to be a worse consequence than death? It's eternity. And so, that does kind of play a little bit of a role in my mind there. Everything goes back to movies to some extent. But, yeah, it's either you bend to the will of the mob, or you bend to the will of the judge, the Father.
Interesting. Yeah. Well, another takeaway from this passage here, in verse 35, Jesus says, referring to John the Baptist, he says,
"'He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.'"
And that kind of reminded me of like, there might be ministries today where people rejoice in certain ministries. They have certain things that they enjoy. They like certain preachers, they like certain preaching styles. Jesus is implying, though, that they enjoyed listening to John the Baptist, but they missed the point of who he was directing them towards. And my question is, maybe that's a possibility today where there could be ministries that people might miss out on what they're pointing towards, who they're pointing towards: Jesus. Is that as applicable today as it was back then? People rejoicing for a while in their light while they have the spotlight, while they're popular, or maybe while there's no persecution or while there's no cost to attending a megachurch in the west, as opposed to perhaps in a persecuted country? So, that's one aspect of it. Another aspect of it is, are people getting the point all along? Are they just along for the ride? Are they just going with what's popular at the moment because it's part of a social group or a social outing? Anyway, any thoughts on that?
Kind of makes me wonder, you know, when John was displaying things, it was exciting. Right? He's talking about the Messiah's coming. This is the one who's maybe preparing the way for the Messiah. But then when they had, they got a little, Jesus got more close and personal than John did. So, yeah, you're, you know, you're just in the midst of the glory of a big church or the revival that's going on, but nobody's putting the spotlight on your sin. And, you know, and so then it's like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, I'm out of here. Right? And Jesus kind of kept doing that with these guys.
Yeah.
Well, he raised the bar, right?
So, I don't think that they liked that.
I'm here at church for the coffee and the vibes, not for, like this sin stuff.
This was exciting. Like, wait a minute, you're telling us that we're wrong, that we are missing the point when we thought that we were the ones that were, you know, here to educate everybody once the Messiah was revealed. We're going to educate them and show them all the reasons why this is him.
Yeah.
And it's like, no, this guy's pointing out my sin. And I don't like this.
That's really, really good.
I was kind of thinking as I was looking at those verses about how people will follow like a preacher, and they get really gung-ho about that preacher, and that preacher has charm or like enthusiasm or whatever, whatever is drawing people in. And. And then, you know, unfortunately, a lot of pastors fall because they're put on these pedestals and there's not a lot of accountability around them. I'm not going to name certain names, but you can all probably think of a couple of them that, that have happened recently. But then what happens when we kind of idolize these preachers or a certain church or a certain movement, and then people say, well, I've been hurt by the church. And then they talk about how they are hurt or feel abandoned or whatever by the church, but it's really because they were putting their faith in that person and not Jesus as their savior. And I always feel really, I just get really disheartened and sad when I hear about that.
Yeah, I think it's interesting how there is the term "church hurt." You never hear "Jesus hurt." I've never heard anybody say, well, I'm no longer following God because of Jesus hurt. It's church hurt. And that's people. That's human. And so, yeah, if you're church hurt and that causes you to fall away from Christ, well, then, yeah, you put that pastor, that organization that ministry on an idol level, it seems.
Yeah.
Like you thought you were following Christ, but that wasn't Christ in front of you, that was the church.
Right.
Where was Christ?
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Well, and what came to mind also with that, that thought was the Parable of the Sower. And so just really quick, in Matthew 13:18-23, then Jesus explains the Parable of the Sower. So, you can go back and read the parable itself, but starting in verse 18 says,
"'Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.'"
And so, I think that kind of also helps us to understand, like why would it be that people will fall away? Or why is it that there's a misunderstanding or a misappropriation of what the important thing is in a person, in a church. It could be also just because, like where was the person's heart when the word actually got in?
Right.
What was, yeah, was it good soil or not? So, there's self-responsibility too. It's like if you say that you believe in Christ, but man. Well, I think it's interesting when that says when trials come up and like, and witness is connected with martyr, it's like, well, yeah, I think that's when the rubber meets the road is when you get a little pushback. You going to fold or are you going to dig in?
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a thought in this passage. Can I share? Okay.
Go ahead.
So, the verse 31 where Jesus says,
"'If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true.'"
This apparently stuck out to me a few times because I wrote it multiple times in my notes without realizing it. But it's this concept that of like the legal, like the legal term going back to that. Like, Jesus himself, who is truth, who is the authority, is declaring that even his testimony is not enough for people to just take his word for it. And so, it's this idea then, then he refers to four witnesses like you already, we talked about, J.C. Ryle listed them: His Father in Heaven, John the Baptist, his miracles and then the Scriptures. And the idea to me being that like even truth himself is open to being audited, in a way. Like, in the nature of truth is one that it can be pressed upon and then it can be questioned. Where like I think there's that, I might have,
"Truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."
It's like old idiom I've seen here and there and stuff like that. But I think that that concept remains, is like even Jesus, like who is God himself, who is the who is truth, is open to this idea of like, I understand that you're not just going to take my word for it. So, remember that there are these other, like, four witnesses that you can speak to that point to me being the reality. And so, even Jesus is saying like, if I alone bear witness of myself is not true. And I think the idea behind that, like the point I'm trying to make, I guess, is like that even like if you're someone who is like wondering if God is real, like God doesn't mind being questioned. And in fact, like, it is the nature of God to conceal things, and the nature of kings to search those things out. And so, I don't know, I just, was a thought I had and wanted to share with you guys. But.
That's good. Yeah.
It really is.
Yeah, it is good.
Well, and they were legalists. So, in the Old Testament it was, it's clearly stated that someone can't testify for themselves that it has to be in the testimony of two to three witnesses, let something be established. So, he's saying here's four.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah. He, he wasn't just: because I said so.
Exactly.
Right.
But was open to—
I would think that God could do that. I mean, like if my own mom could. Because I said so. Like you think that God would, I guess sometimes, and that would be my own heart, like, that I would feel that God would have toward us is like a, because I said so. And I think that, you know, God's authority is God's authority. But I do think it's just interesting and kind of beautiful that God's like actually like I understand that there's this dynamic here where, like, you still don't know who I am yet. And we're building this trust, and as part of that, this is what I can speak to, to kind of show this is who I am. You know, so.
Incredibly gracious that he would do that for us.
Right?
Right. Because, I mean, they had the whole Old Testament. Right?
Yeah.
And they, there was—
And they knew it.
Yeah. But Jesus came to be, let me show you what it really looks like. You're missing the mark here.
Right. Yep.
Kind of along this, this kind of following along the path of least resistance—something shiny, exciting—there's a chapter where it's talking about, like, why do I keep falling for unsafe people? in the book Safe People by Cloud and Townsend. And one of the reasons is called because of merger wishes, which ultimately is like, we attach ourselves to something that we deem desirable, but we don't want to do the work to actually accomplish that thing on our own. So, it's, I kind of thought about that concept with some people who go to church and do all the right good things, but they don't actually ever have a heart conversion moment. They're just kind of attaching themselves to this movement or idea because it seems good, but they don't want to ever surrender.
So, it feels like they're doing it. I'm bringing revival because I attend these things.
Yeah.
I didn't do anything but keep attending somebody else's events.
Well, I think that that's kind of on par with what you guys are talking about with, like, following a preacher. And then it's like this disillusionment when church hurt happens because you're following a church, not Jesus. I feel like that tracks that.
Well, and it goes to show you just how powerful emotions are, I mean, also. Because it's not all necessarily like, I have a plan that I'm going to be manipulative in the things. Right? But it's just like, but we can be swept up in emotion so quickly. And from the music to the, a dynamic speaker, and yet, yeah, that puts us off course just enough. But it feels right because I leave a church service feeling like, wow, I feel so amped up. But then like there has, well, okay, so why is it on Sunday you're living for Christ, but, you know, Monday you're living for the devil? It's like, well, because I might have just been all emotion. It's powerful.
I really want to see you amped up.
It's, it's impossible. God didn't give me that ability.
My pastor says a lot of the time, a faith that isn't changing you isn't saving you. That's something I kind of think about is like, am I being changed by the word or am I just hearing it?
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah.
Well, another takeaway here from this passage. In John 5:37, Jesus says,
"'And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.'"
Now, the implication there is that they would have seen the Father, they would have heard his voice, and they would have had his word abiding in them if he, if they did believe in the one he had sent. That's kind of how I'm reading that there.
And it reminds me of later on in John chapter 14, starting in verse 8,
"Philip said to him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' Jesus said to him, 'Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.'"
So, on the surface, it appears to be kind of like a circular reference kind of thing. Like, well, if you believe in me, you'll believe the Father, the witness, but you don't see the witness because you don't believe in me. And it, but there's something about that explanation in John 14 that I think provides a little clarity there, because it's like something clicks. It's like, instantaneous. It's like a matter of faith. It's like it all somehow, it's like a supernatural thing—the best I can understand it—it all comes together. You, when the person who believes in Jesus then sees the Father who's the witness about Jesus. And it just kind of all works together. It's tough to wrap your brain around it. But I believe that's kind of what the teaching is there.
And I think it has to be that way because, again, I mean, if we're to really, you know, talk about this not by our own works, well, it kind, it does, I think it has to be supernatural, like it has to, all the—
It's the gift of God.
The gift of God. Right. So, it's not because you, yeah, it's nothing that we've done, but it's like, but Christ does, God does something supernatural in us, like, which is why it doesn't really make sense. It's like, he's like, no, I got this. Like, once these things happen, then it all works together, like, I don't know, instantaneously, it seems like that's what that's saying anyways.
Yeah. I thought that was kind of fascinating, how those two passages kind of seem to work together there.
Yep. Yeah.
Yeah. So, questioning, what were you listening to when you were studying all these Scriptures? Somehow you missed it because you were maybe up in your head instead of hearing the spirit of the heart of the Father. So, they were so caught up, up here. And we hear very different from our head. Right? We hear so different from our heart. And they weren't listening from their heart. Right? Because later he reprimands them and he says, you whitewashed sepulchers, you know, you're clean on the outside. You've done all the rules, you've done all the ceremonies, you've been keeping all the law. But the letter of the law kills.
Right.
But it's the spirit that gives life. And I am here representing the heart of the Father.
Right. Yeah. The Scripture is, this is how much you need Jesus, is because you can't do all these things. And it's odd—not odd—it's interesting how that, it didn't, that didn't, it wasn't recognized, and it's still not recognized by people. It's like this is the reason why you need Jesus, because you can't do everything that this book says on your own.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of witness?
Yeah, I mean, I just kind of go back to how gracious God is to give us so many witnesses to point us towards Jesus. I mean, from the natural, like Richelle was talking about, you can just look around you and it's a witness towards God. The importance of the social connection and interaction, how we all have our own kind of brand and our own, like, mini missionary field to, like, God can speak through us, and that God wants to partner, allows us to partner with Him. I mean, that's just, it's so cool. But then I guess lastly, just the significance of how martyrdom is connected with witness. And it's like, yeah, when you speak the truth, people hate the truth. And in just, they killed Jesus, they killed 11 of the 12 disciples. And it's a significant thing. And that's how you know you're onto something good, is when people try to kill you for it. That's truth. That's what truth will get you.
I just keep thinking, like—kind of back, backtracking a little bit—but I was thinking about how, like, the people in the Old Testament and the people in the crowds around Jesus were looking for a conquering, powerful savior. They knew the word of God to the letter, but they couldn't see, like, the gift right in front of them. It is just so ironic because I think we all have the potential and capacity to miss the mark. And I'm so grateful that throughout Scripture, God uses people who are flawed and broken and messed up. Because it's a gift to us to know like I don't have to be perfect, I don't have to have all the answers, I don't have to know exactly all the things and why it is the way it is. It's really just about trusting him as my savior and trusting that the power that he puts in me and the wisdom of the Holy Spirit will help me every step of the way. And I don't have to be perfect. And that is a relief and a joy.
Good. Good.
Yeah, I just. I love that it's the ordinary person who can have a witness, but that God also left so much witness in the earth for the very intellectual, the scientists. I love that. You know, we didn't really, I didn't go off on my tangent, but I'm gonna tiny bit here. Just that the witnesses that John talks about, right? We've got the witness of the Scriptures and all the ones that we've talked about. But then in 1 John, he talks about the witness of the spirit, the water and the blood. And I just love, I love metaphor. I live in metaphor. It's my, what I eat for life. And I love when science reflects God. And it's like we are in an era right now where it's, you know, so John's talking about the water. The water reflects a story, right? Emoto studies where water, you know, when you're speaking something beautiful into it, it reflects beauty. When you speak awful things into it, it reflects something that's very disorganized. And so, the water is telling a story. The water in our body, the water in the earth, it's telling a story. We don't see it with our naked eye, but it is seen and it is telling a story. And now blood, now they're finding that DNA could be the greatest recording device. So again, it's saying that the blood, you know, it says the DNA, the molecule of life can be harnessed to faithfully store enormous volumes of data and provide powerful encryption, and that they've been storing digital data and DNA since 2012. And I just think not only is it the blood of Jesus, and we have sometimes these metaphor and these things that we know are true, but then when you get down to those little tiny details and you see, no, it actually really is reflecting the story of God because He is after everybody's heart. So, I just love that we do have witnesses all around us every day where we learn more about the character of God and who he is in our own life experiences and in nature and in science.
Yeah.
Very nice.
Closing thoughts, Robyn?
Okay, I didn't know you were gonna ask me this. Just kidding.
Shocker.
I'm just still sitting on, like, I guess, like, my closing thought would be to people who are, I guess, still searching or if they stumble upon this podcast, like, my encouragement would be to seek truth, because truth is okay to be questioned. Like, I feel. I just really believe that anybody who is truly looking, not for, like, a religion that fits them or looking for something that feels good, but someone who's genuinely searching for the truth is always going to end up at God. And I think that God is very comfortable with people's questions and likes to be pursued and likes to be discovered in that way. So, I think that, honestly, it's just simple, but my closing thought would be to pursue, pursue God and ask questions you think he can't answer, because I think that he can shock you and surprise you. So.
Excellent. Yeah. And I ended, on a little bit of a dark note, but it's like speaking truth can get you killed, but it is far, like Scripture says, don't fear a man who can destroy the body, but fear God who can destroy the soul. So that it's worth it to speak truth, even if harm comes your way because of it—far better to do so. So, anyways. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, that verse 39 says,
"'You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.'"
And so, you've got centuries of people reading the Old Testament and trying to find out the way to please God and to have life, and to miss what David was writing about was about Jesus, to miss what Moses was writing about was about Jesus. And then when Jesus appears, he's saying that the people refuse to come to him, that they may actually have what they've been looking for the whole time. And this probably leads into what we plan to be in another episode where we'll dig in a little bit more on that. But it's just amazing how I think if you read with anticipation, you come up with a person of Jesus as the result of the search, not some—it's not like some unfathomable mystery, you know, where if you go up in the mountains and, it's important to get away, but it's not like something that only a select few can crack the code. You know? Jesus is saying, like, here I am and he is what they've been looking for. So, I think that was great that he included that in there, so. Well, great episode, everyone. Thanks for joining us, panelists. Thanks for listening, listeners and—
Listening listeners.
We look forward to another episode soon.
Yes, take care, everybody.
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