Episode Transcript
Growing up, I always loved stepping into church the first Sunday after Thanksgiving. Outside of salvation, it was the biggest transformation to occur within its four walls. From steps to steeple, Christmas trees, garland and lights were positioned and hung with such care and precision, even Buddy the Elf would gape. And Christmastime of 1995 was no different.
Rushing in from the gray, cold parking lot that Sunday morning, I knew what lie ahead and I couldn't wait to see. I gave door greeter Beatrice a wide berth of 39 and a half feet and blew past her like she stink, stank, stunk. Admittedly, there's always a certain amount of risk in foregoing manners once inside the calendar snow globe—you know, that span of time between Thanksgiving and Christmas—but I didn't care. I didn't have time for her canned welcome or her holiday-infused bulletin propaganda. Like the Polar Express, my mind was on one track and one track only.
The worship team was still in the green room, but I could faintly hear the Hallelujah Chorus as I stepped into the sanctuary that morning. I was Clark Griswold spotting the perfect tree, Ralphie Parker peering into Higbee's window display, Kevin McCallister walking into Duncan's Toy Chest. I was in awe. Martha May Whovier herself couldn't have done a better job with the decorations. Perfection.
Except one tree looked a little out of place. While other trees in the room had lights, this one had cards. I walked up for a closer look.
"It's called a giving tree," a voice called out from behind me. Beatrice had caught up with me. "Here." She handed me a bulletin.
"What's a giving tree?" I asked.
"They're for kids in the congregation who are a little less fortunate, who could use a little help this Christmas."
"Oh. Well, that's sort of sad. How's it work?"
"Well, someone takes one of the cards and they buy a gift for whoever's name's on it."
"And then they bring it back to the church?"
"Uh huh. And the church gives it to the child for Christmas."
I stood there looking at the tree. Dozens of cards with names and ages spread across its branches like ornaments. I read a few of the cardboard cutouts, wondering why their names were added to the tree, what sort of need they had. And then, like a leg lamp shining bright on Cleveland Street, one name caught my attention. I moved in for a closer look. It wasn't just any name. It was my name.
It's not every day that the realities of your less-than-desirable socioeconomic status comes to light from a Christmas decoration. But that day, the little giving tree just couldn't help but give a little bit more. Like finding out your Christmas bonus is a one-year membership to the Jelly of the Month Club, I was taken aback. Apparently, of all the kids on the Polar Express, I was Billy. You see, my dad worked for The Boeing Company, and I guess Boeing's employment strike at the time was a bigger deal than I realized. But the funny thing is, I couldn't help but shake this strange excitement. Being diagnosed years prior with early onset optimism had its advantages. I couldn't shake the excitement of opening a gift given to me by a complete and total stranger.
In the Book of Matthew, we see another child being presented gifts from a stranger. Well, strangers. My nativity scene says it's three. Matthew 2:1-2 reads,
"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, 'Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.'”
Giving trees had a more celestial vibe back then. And part of their worship was giving gifts. Matthew continues,
"Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, 'Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.' After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh."
But these were not merely gifts. They were gifts wrapped in prophetic significance, significance beautifully highlighted by clergyman and composer John Hopkins Jr. in his 1857 Christmas Carol, We Three Kings. Hopkins writes,
"Born a King on Bethlehem's plain,
Gold I bring to crown Him again
King for ever, ceasing never
Over us all to reign....
"Frankincense to offer have I,
Incense owns a Deity nigh
Prayer and praising, voices raising,
Worshiping God most high....
"Myrrh is mine,
Its bitter perfume breathes
A life of gathering gloom.
Sorrowing, sighing, bleeding, dying,
Sealed in the stone cold tomb."
I wonder if the wise men knew what they gave, if they knew the message that their gifts proclaimed: Jesus' kingship, deity and death. Or if they knew that their gifts would be an almost perfect precursor to John the Baptist's later proclamation,
"'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
"'The Lamb of God'" relates to death and sacrifice. "'Who takes away'" relates to kingly authority. "'The sins of the world'" relates to priestly mediation.
Not exactly in song order, but myrrh, gold, and frankincense, respectively.
If John was
"'The voice of one calling out in the wilderness,
"Prepare the way of the Lord,"'"
then the wise men were the hands offering gifts as tribute, proclaiming, the Lord is here.
In Christmas of 1995, I received a neatly wrapped gift from someone I didn't know. Someone who gave their time and resources to help make my Christmas a little bit brighter. Appropriately, it was a shirt that read,
"Just live it. Go into all the world and preach the gospel. Use words if necessary."
And despite the fact that my newly acquired shirt quickly joined the rotation among my Kris Kross Looney Tunes tees, I didn't fully understand the importance of its message, the importance of the gospel. I do now.
You see, we're all in need. We can't do this on our own. Each of us are on the giving tree, and we're waiting for someone to take our name and give us that which we can't afford, that which we can't provide for ourselves. Thankfully, God did.
God took your name, took my name, and gave us the greatest gift known to man: his son, Jesus. Jesus, in turn, gave us the gift of his life, a gift only he as king, mediator, and ultimate sacrifice could afford and offer. Jesus was born to die on that rugged cross, the original giving tree, so that we may live. All we need to do is believe and receive.
Yes.
What do you call. What do you call a pastor in Germany?
Variety of answers on that one.
A German shepherd.
Dog jokes.
I love it.
That's pretty good. That's pretty good. How about this one? This is more on a little point with Christmas.
What did the disappointed Mozart fan infant say when he opened his gift?
Baby got Bach.
I was gonna say, take it back? But the infant, I see.
Yeah, yep.
What's the breast? Well, no.
A little faux pas there?
Wait a minute.
What are your thoughts on Freud?
We don't have an HR department here.
No, we don't. That was the joke.
We've got to get our minds set on what we're going to talk about today.
That's right. What's the best present you can give?
Wow. That can go a number of directions.
I know. A broken drum. You can't beat it.
That's good.
And how about this? A little more on point with the topic.
Three wise men came to the manger with gifts for baby Jesus. The first wise man offered gold. The second offered frankincense. The third, who was in advertising, little known fact, said, but wait, there's myrrh.
You guys are the worst.
Where'd you get those?
We're the worst?
How much does Santa pay for parking?
How much?
Nothing. It's on the house.
Oh.
She a punny gal.
Well, we better start before we all get signed to a comedy career.
That's right.
Well, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., holiday edition.
Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas, everybody.
Dr. Jon Troll is in the house. I am your host, Chris. We're joined once again with Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson, Mandy Michaels from Reach Ministry, and for the first time in the studio, we welcome Tom Johnson. Welcome, Tom.
Tom, welcome, welcome.
Privilege to be here.
Tom, you've got a background in radio, you've got a background in sales. Tell us more about yourself.
Well, let's see. I'm, I've been happily married for 5 years. I have a 22-month-old daughter and another child on the way due to be born next month, a little boy.
Amazing.
Congratulations.
Very happy about that. So, I, you know, I've got a varied career of all kinds of things, so. And I've known some of you for a long time, which is good.
That's right. We go way back.
Yeah.
We've done Bible studies for a long time and happy to have you contribute and looking forward to input from everyone here, so. Excellent. Well, today we are looking at the Christmas story once again. We're going to look at Matthew, chapter 2, and our verses are 1-11. I'll read that out of the ESV.
"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, 'Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.' When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. They told him, 'In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
'"And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel."'
Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, 'Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.' After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh."
So, the book of Matthew is the only gospel that includes this story of the wise men, also translated magi. So, that's our opening passage of Scripture. Our topic today will be the gifts brought and the significance of those and we'll turn it around for opening comments around the table. Dr. Jon.
All right. Yes. Merry, Merry Christmas, everybody. I love the fact that this whole story starts off—like the book of Matthew, basically, it's just chapter two—but it starts talking about basically three more prophecies about Jesus. The Old Testament, they say that there's over 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfills, and I love how this just starts off just three more, just for good measure. And the prophetic gifts, meaning gold, signifying Christ's kingship; frankincense, signifying his priestly mediation for us; and then myrrh signifying his upcoming death.
And then just to put in perspective a little bit too, I've heard this a couple times over the past month or so how they're, when it comes to 300, 300 prophecies, over 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfills, if you were to take eight of them, that would be 1 in 10 to the 17th power, which also would mean that's 1 in 100 quadrillion. And then if you were to put that into another perspective, perhaps you've heard this before, where that would be like eight of those, Jesus fulfilling eight of those prophecies, would be like filling the state of Texas two feet deep with silver dollars, painting one silver dollar, painting it red, putting it somewhere in that mix, blindfolding somebody and having them pick out that one silver dollar. And that's just eight out of 300. And so just the fact that starts off with three more prophecies, it's just like you can't deny that Jesus is who he says that he is. That's, that's. And then really quick, statistically speaking, over 300, it is statistically impossible. There's, there, there's no, there's no like what about like 100 feet deep, or what about a thousand feet deep of coins? It's like. No, it's, it's statistically impossible for somebody to fulfill over 300 prophecies.
By chance. By chance alone you mean.
By chance alone, yeah.
Is that 300 prophecies through his whole life? Or for his birth?
Oh, for his whole life.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Amazing. That's really good. I saw your Josh Howerton. I'm like wait, he's going to get there. I wrote out, down a few fun facts. First, David, King David was from Bethlehem as well and was called Ephrath. The wise men were also known as astronomers. And it was likely that there was actually a great company of them, not just three, as we may know. And then when Jesus was, when Jews were exiled from Judah and Israel centuries before, they were of course, sent west. Right? To Babylon. And so, there's a lot of people that believe that those, the magi, were actually descendants of those people that were exiled, who stayed in the, who stayed out west. And so, that's what they're, why they wanted to know Jesus and why they would have been so interested. Right? That and the teachings of Daniel and the book of Daniel, who prophesied and talked about the stars would have been passed down to them. So, they would have had a really great reason, you know, for following the stars and to go and find Jesus. And another fun fact that actually Josh Howerton mentioned today is that, that he thinks, and this is of course all conjecture, but he thinks that maybe because when they plundered Israel in those days and took all the plunder to Babylon, the significance of the gold was bringing that gold back to Israel, back to Jesus.
Yeah. Back to his rightful owner. Love that. Yeah.
Full circle. Very cool.
Yeah, you know, I, when I did the study, I obviously, the kings from the east, Persia, what might be known as Persia back then, they may have known some facts for when the Israelites were in captivity in Babylonia. Maybe they knew of some prophecies in that regard, but they were, yeah, astrologers—probably there was more of a tight fit in those days between astronomy and astrology, where they believed something was mystical. So, the star might indicate that there was a leader and a leader of the world. And I feel personally they might have been led by the Holy Spirit to take this faith walking journey to Jerusalem and then on to Bethlehem. And I found it interesting that when they get to Jerusalem, Herod, when he was asked about the king of the Jews, he, almost immediately, from the passage we can tell, he consulted with his chief priests, religious leaders, of the day. And right away he knew that it was equated to the Messiah. So, this whole idea that this would not be just a king, a political king of just Jewish people, but it would be a worldwide, make a worldwide impact. When the magi arrived at Bethlehem, it's interesting because they were told after they presented their gifts to go back a different way. And to me that implied that there was a transformation that took place. And a couple other things, I didn't want to hog the conversation, but regarding the frankincense and myrrh, they were used maybe like essential oils to be able to provide healing. One last fact that I thought was interesting, when Christ was presented something to drink, it was wine mixed with myrrh—could have been used as kind of a, shall we say, a stupefying effect, a way to kill the pain—and he refused it. And maybe he knew that he needed to take the full wrath of God's anger to fulfill Scripture.
That's interesting. Yeah.
The study that I did was, a lot of what you guys had already covered came up for me too. And I think one thing that I found really interesting was we all know that like King Herod is pretty bad, but there was a lot, I mean, he was brutal and very, very threatened by other possible authority coming into power instead of him. And so, like there was a saying that went around at that time that it's better to be one of Herod's pigs than one of Herod's sons because he would kill his own children for fear of like them taking over the throne from him. And so, the thought that this like new king was just born and they were recognizing him as a king, like they were offering—this was pretty common for that day, was to bring gifts to like a potential new authority or a new king. But they even were calling him King of the Jews when he was just a baby, when like historically they would have considered that like a potential prince because you'd never know, but he was already considered going to be the King of the Jews. And the fact that like, like Herod sends to have him killed and he still somehow escapes that and survives that, I think only like further like supports this theory that like Jesus was always intended to be the King, the Messiah, because I mean, statistically speaking, he shouldn't have survived even what he did and then to also fulfill all those prophecies is pretty remarkable, so.
Yeah, talking about Herod really quick is, that is interesting because it's like this is Jesus somewhat in a nutshell, which is the, he comes on to the scene being born and there are those who want to come and worship him and those who want to kill him, right off the bat. And it's like, talk about like how he's such a dividing force. And it's so interesting. It's either you love him and you'll die for him, or you'll try to kill him and you'll try to kill those who love him. That's just really interesting how even at this, at this story, in the story, those who came to worship him and those who want to kill him.
We see that in the world today, don't we? Where we just have such a pushback against Christianity, specifically. And it's fascinating people don't see this with all the religions in the world that Christianity is the one that always gets the pushback and always gets so much hatred thrown at it. You see in the movies, I don't think I've ever seen a movie where they haven't brought up the name of Jesus. Not in a good way, necessarily, but always. You know? He's always the one that they're always picking on Christians. In fact, in the upper room, the, Islam has just put a sign saying Allah is the only God. In the upper room, like in a very, very special place for us as believers. And the world is okay with this. If we had done the opposite to them, I mean, the world would be melting down right now. I just think it's so interesting that people don't, don't see this and don't recognize it, when I say, when someone says God, you know, in the bad word, they're talking about our God. You know? You would never say that about any other God. I just think it's always been that way. Right? It's always been that way. And it will continue to be that way as we go. But fascinating.
I wanted to say in reference to, that was really good, that he is, you either go, you know, black or white, hot or cold. And I was thinking of Revelation where the Lord said that he couldn't stand, he was going to spit you out of your mouth if you were kind of namby-pamby in between. Right? Lukewarm. And just, the society that we live in today, there's a real tendency toward trying to live in the middle and trying not to upset people and be, you know, nice people. But there can certainly be a different definition of nice versus kind, true godliness. And I think we need to understand that, that we can speak the truth, we can speak it in real love. But speak the truth. I think, one last comment, I think because of the situation with the assassination of Charlie Kirk, I think it's a reminder, all of us Christians, that we can stand up and that we can disagree without being disagreeable. But we can disagree, and we need to make sure that we speak the truth and speak it in love.
I love that. Absolutely. And I do think that there's, it's because of the truth. I mean, that is what is the polarizing bit. And I just, I was thinking about, as you were saying it, it's like, why is truth so, why is it so difficult for some? Like, why is it that truth is the thing that, well, you know, will, someone become murderous from it? Right? Well, because truth says that you're supposed to be something that you're not, like the thing that you want to be as an individual, as a human. It's putting ourselves in the God place when we say we want it, what we, how we want it, and we want to do it the way that we want to. But then Christ says, no, but I say, there's a better way. There's a better way to do it. But that rubs people so wrong because that intimately attacks their belief that they're God. Even if it's not explicitly believed that they're God, if they're doing it their way, then that is the, that's kind of what they're saying is, I know better than God does. And to say that you don't, well, then that just disrupts their entire worldview. And it's tough for people to admit that they're wrong.
Yeah, I heard such a good analogy for this today. People say, I'm a nice person, so I'll go to heaven. And the, this guy was saying, well, what if you showed up at someone's door and you said, I want to come in. And they say, you're a stranger, I don't know you. And they said, but I'm a nice person, so you should let me in. What does that mean? What does it mean anything that you're a nice person? And nice is relative. And then it also with the, with the only way to Jesus is through, you know, the way to the Father is through Jesus. I mean, the directions God gives us is so clear. So, if God tells us to go east on this road and take this turn and go this way, but we decided to go the opposite direction, end up way over here. And then we come to him and we're like, but I was a good person in life. Why didn't you, I followed my own way? And that's just what he's saying is, that's the problem. You followed your way, you didn't follow my way, so you ended up in a place where you shouldn't have been.
Reminds me of Jonah. Life of Jonah. Yeah. The pastor's sermon this morning, as a matter of fact, said if you're reading God's Word and it's not being somehow disruptive in your life, maybe you're not reading it the right way, because that's what Christ did. He came to turn the world upside down from the world's standards, and he turned it completely on its ear.
For the world's good.
Yes.
And that's the part people miss. Right?
Yeah.
Because they want to do in their own strength, thinking they're going their own way and they're bettering themselves in their own capacity, when God really wants to better ourselves from ourselves and the things that we think that are good and are bad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think anytime I've truly been convicted by the Lord about anything, in actuality, I feel very loved. Like, I, I've never, like, walked away from, like, a conversation with the Lord or, like, reading the Word and felt, like, actually shameful. I feel more like God is pointing something out because he loves me so much that he's trying to draw me away from something that is potentially, like, slowly killing me or just, like, if not physically, then spiritually, or keeping me from an intimate relationship with him. Like, when you really are actually able to have a, like a face-to-face with the Lord, I guess, as it were, it's not actually—like you're talking about, like, we don't like to admit that we're wrong, we don't like being told that we're wrong. And that can, I mean, if that hits at your pride and if you're someone that can't feel like being wrong, then that is really, really hard to come face-to-face with. But when it's with the Lord, it's never because he doesn't love us or because he's mad at us. It's actually because he's just trying to draw us deeper into relationship with him. And people don't, I think that people equate that, like, being told I'm wrong with being told I don't love you. And that's, those are two different messages, and those are two different things in actuality, and a lot of times they're one and the same. God is saying, you're wrong about this is him being like, I love you. You know? And, yeah.
There's such safety in correction if we allow ourselves to look at it that way.
Yeah.
It's like if you're at work and the boss says that you're, if you keep on doing it this way, you're going to hurt yourself or hurt somebody because you're going out of, you know, compliance. You know, you can grow cold towards that, or you can say, thank you so much for letting me know that. Now I won't hurt myself. That's very close to what I think the Bible really can be summed up to is just, this is so you won't be hurt, and you're not going to get away from Earth unscathed because we live in a sinful, fallen world. But it will help us navigate those times a lot better.
There's a Scripture, in, out of The Passion Translation in Psalm 94 that says,
"Even the sting of your correction can be sweet."
Yeah.
But it is that way, right? It stings, but it's so sweet.
I once had a boss who he, I was learning to be a teacher, and he pulled me aside once, and he just kind of started talking. And then after he left, my coworker's like, what was that about? And I was like, I think he just corrected me. But I was like, why do I feel like I'm also, like, the best teacher ever after he did that? Like, because it was so, he did the, he did this so well, he did correction so well that, like, I was like, I don't feel chastised, I feel like he was pointing something out because he really believes that I can do better. You know? And I think of that. I don't even remember what he said at this point. I just remember how, like, good that felt to be like, he's like, I really believe in you, I really think you're gonna do well at this. You need to do this differently. Like, it was, I wanted to learn how to be that kind of person.
Right?
It's a skill. Yeah.
Yeah.
And I just want to say what you said about being on the fence, I think that people don't really understand the fence does not belong to Jesus. The fence does not belong in a neutral zone. The fence belongs to the enemy. And so, anybody out there listening, if you're on the fence, you are not for Jesus, and you're not for, you know, what he stands for. You are definitely for the other side.
You know, I read something recently where it said, it repeated the old adage or phrase you've probably heard a thousand times in your life, you know, if I'm too heavenly minded, I can't do any earthly good. But it was interesting what I read. It's like, okay, if you're, if you're so much into the earthliness of this life—which we all live, you know, about 100 years or less, typically, and it just goes by quickly—if you're not focused on the Lord, but you're focused more on the earthly type things, how can you make those radical changes that the Lord wants you to make in this brief stop here on this planet? And the people that we are drawn to, I think in our lives, the ones that we really admire and respect—although at first, they may kind of bristle—are the ones that are making that huge difference. And I think that's where a nation and a world got kind of, you know, bristled a little bit at the death of Charlie Kirk because they realized, wow, this guy, you know, he did this, you know, he wasn't perfect, but for the most part, he would encounter people with their opposite views. He would do it out of love, but he would still disagree with them and speak the truth and try to speak it in love. And it's, I think it just shook a lot of us up and thought, we thought, gosh, that's reflecting on me. I'm not being the way that I really need to be when I'm with people. I mean, what kind of a difference am I making for the Lord? You know, I'm living this life and I'm living it in what I consider to be peaceful, but my life will soon be over. So, what difference have I made in this brief amount of existence on planet Earth? Right?
Yeah. Loving is not always agreeing.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Yeah. Today's society can be viewed as very polarized in a lot of ways. One of the interesting things about looking at the Bible story just as a whole is that, yes, God has his chosen people, as he says, the Israelites, the Jews. And yet the Bible is filled with times when he has brought in people from other nations, other countries to really fulfill his ultimate purposes. Like, for example, Ruth is in the lineage of Jesus. Rahab is in the lineage of Jesus. They are not Jews. There's an account of Naaman being healed. I mean, that's one of the most powerful healing stories in the Bible. And he was, I believe, an opposing military person, an antagonist potentially at times of the Jews. And then, of course, the magi. In this account here, we've got wise men from the east who are acknowledging that they want to worship the King of the Jews, which is pretty amazing because they do not have a political allegiance to the King of the Jews, at least not in that present moment. and yet their understanding of the Scriptures to that point put something in them that said we know it's the right thing to do right now is to actually worship the King of the Jews. And so, where they got that knowledge, well, it's very well possible they got it from, as it was passed down, the knowledge from Daniel, who studied the book of Jeremiah. And the book of Jeremiah, a lot of churches are well familiar with Jeremiah 29:11. But a little more surrounding context of that—and now think of the magi when Jeremiah 29:10-13 is read out of the ESV.
“'For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.'"
The wise men literally found Jesus when they were seeking him.
Yeah.
Isn't that interesting?
That's very interesting.
And so, that is very likely a Scripture, in my opinion, that could have been on their mind as they were pursuing what they understood to be the birth of the King of the Jews.
Yeah. That's amazing.
Yeah. There's a verse out of Isaiah that I discovered, Isaiah 60:3,
"Nations will come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your dawn."
So, it's the whole idea that people would be drawn from various nations, various backgrounds, to the Holy One, to the Lord. And the Holy Spirit draws those people to him. And there's something very attractive about his life and who he is, that people want to come and they want to learn. And with their limited amount of knowledge, you know, probably about the godly things, about the true God, they still were drawn. And when they got there, they, before they presented their gifts, they bowed low. They had a humility and a sense of awe as they, you know, bowed before the King and that, yeah, it's really good, good stuff that people would be drawn, Gentiles would be drawn.
Seek and you will find. Yeah.
I left with two questions, actually. My first was, in that day, people would have slept on the roofs because it would be so hot, in the summertime, especially, that they would have known the sky, and they would have seen something out of place. So, what was it that these men knew and understood that the people didn't see that was out of place? Herod didn't see it. In Jesus' day, planets were considered wandering stars. So, there's a lot of belief that perhaps it was two wandering stars that came together in eclipse.
Conjunction.
And that's what they were looking at, which would have been a normal thing. Right? But they knew exactly what they were looking for, specifically. And then the next question that I had was why did they not stay very long? You know, they made such a long journey. It was a big deal. Like we, when we read a few sentences and it's kind of, the journey's over. But there, for them it was a very long journey. It took a very long time. But they were in and out so quickly. And I'm curious about, I don't have an answer for this, but I'm curious about maybe because of Herod and trying to stay away from him. But I think it's interesting that they were there, gave the gifts.
Right. I mean Herod, he must have, like his character must have well-preceded him. So, when they were in his courts, when he was talking to them, I wonder if they were just like, yeah, this guy is just getting information so that he can come and kill the one that we're out to go worship. And so, but they already knew that it was in, they knew that he knew that it was in Bethlehem. And so, they're probably figuring, well if they're going to, they're probably not too far behind us if we don't go back. So, I don't know, maybe. Maybe it's just, they just kept on going. Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question though. Yeah.
I think it's interesting though that they were so open mouthed when they first got to him, told him a lot of information. Right? So, they clearly thought that everybody would be as excited as they were to meet the King of the Jews. Right? This baby. And probably were very sideswiped to find out that that wasn't actually the case.
Yeah.
Probably figured it out pretty quickly that he was a jealous guy.
Right. Yeah, true. Maybe they gave the information and then like, like, oh shoot.
Oops.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Maybe. I don't know. That's interesting.
You know, it's regarding this conversation's good that the magi, they were obviously, could be astrologers, mysticism, things that really kind of drew them to the spiritual. And it seemed like Herod, he understood that this was an amazing event that would take place with a birth. And he said Messiah. And he knew the prophecies. Right? So, this is a spiritual type of realm that he finds himself in. And yet, even with the impact of that, kind of a, I almost kind of sense that spiritual just kind of in awe that there'd be a prophecy that would be fulfilled about the Messiah, the ruler of the world. He was just so focused on an earthly type of thing. It was like, okay, this was a threat. And I would have just gone, wow, what were the prophecies regarding the Messiah? You know, I would have just been awestruck. And it seemed like even though these magi, they were probably not in the, in the sense of like a, you know, that time, like a Christian godly type character, they were still drawn from a spiritual standpoint it seems like more so than Herod. Herod wasn't there. It didn't seem that way.
Yeah.
In the Matthew Henry commentary, he points out how sure of themselves that they were that there had been in fact a king born. Because the commentary says,
"Their question is, Where is he that is born king of the Jews? They do not ask, whether there were such a one born? (they are sure of that, and speak of it with assurance, so strongly was it set home upon their hearts)"
So, they make this journey and they're like, where is he? Not has, you know, maybe, is there maybe somebody born?
Right.
They're like, where is he? We know it like a fact based on their understanding of the Scriptures. So.
Yeah.
Most likely, so. So, the wise men, they could have been very familiar with, yeah, the book of Daniel and the prophecy of the weeks. That could have been the time frame that they were looking at. So, it's a period of, I believe seven weeks is the first segment and then 62 is the second segment, which would put them at about the expected birth time of the anointed one, I think is how it's phrased in the book of Daniel. So. And then that leads us into modern day eschatology where we're wondering, you know, a lot of people think that that 70th week has not yet happened. And some people say, well, that can't possibly be a, there can't be a delay because that wouldn't make sense. But if the qualifier on that prophecy is that Israel has to be together, united as a country for the weeks to be progressing at all, because it started at the return from the exile or the command to rebuild the temple. And it, if the country was, had fallen, if Jerusalem had fallen, that would be the removal of the qualifier. Right? Weeks don't progress unless there's a temple built, which is why people are eagerly looking for the rebuilding of the temple, so that the weeks can once again hit the play button, basically and progress again. I think that's how people are interpreting the potential gap in the interpretation of the prophecy. So, there's other interpretations as well. Some people say that wouldn't make sense for there to be a gap. But if that's the qualifier, that would be interesting.
Yeah, that is.
Any other thoughts on the connection with the magi and the books of Daniel or Jeremiah?
I love this one. There's actually a documentary called The Star of Bethlehem and he goes deep into it, and he took nine qualifiers from the book of Matthew to figure out where the star was, what it was all about. I encourage anybody to go check it out. I won't go into it. But his conjecture was that they were from the fallen Israel and Judah of those days, and they would have been descendants of the people that were, that stayed behind and didn't return back to the land. And so, that's why they would have such interest in coming back to the king. And a second group would have gone later. But it's interesting that they brought gold because they would have plundered gold. Babylon would have plundered all the gold of the land. So, bringing back the gold was significant and that returning that gold that was taken.
Yeah, that's really good. I mean, it's a good question too, like, who are the magi? Because it's like all of a sudden it's like, "behold, wise men from the east came."
Right.
It's like, okay.
Yeah.
Why? And what's the, like, what led them? And obviously it said the star. But yeah, there's obviously a logical explanation for why they were so intent about seeking out Jesus. But, yeah, in the Bible, it just says, behold, and it's like, poof, here they come.
Here they come. Yeah.
But there's more to it for sure.
Yeah.
I want to make a real quick comment, not to get off track too much, but the idea about the gold that you were saying. Gold, as well as, like, myrrh and frankincense, I read where, like, even myrrh at times could be more valued, valuable than gold. And so, what happened to those gifts after, you know, the magi left? And, you know, some have thought that maybe this helped to finance Mary and Joseph's trip along with Christ to Egypt. And then before they came back and they ended up at Nazareth, they had this money that was available to them so maybe it was, you know, provision as far as the money was concerned for them. Finances.
Yeah, that's really good. That's really good.
I think that's interesting too, because the gifts were for Jesus, right? But his parents would have obviously utilized those gifts for his benefit. And isn't that how we give to Jesus? We give to others? And giving to others is actually giving to him? Do everything as unto the Lord? So, we still to this day give Jesus the gifts in the same way.
It's really so true because that was one thing that I thought of, like, what do you give to Jesus the King? Like, he has everything that we could, like everything. Anything that we have is because we've gotten it from him. So, like, the offering that we give him in response is like either that giving out to others or worship, like.
Well, it's like the Little Drummer Boy, you know, the song, it's fairly recent, that song. But what can I give? Right? Just play the drum. But you know.
For Jesus.
The Little Drummer Boy grew up, got a job, and hopefully brought some gold later.
And still holding it today.
Well, the sequel song isn't as popular, but.
Yeah, on his basement couch. Still playing his drum.
But you know what's interesting though, I mean, as you're talking about that, Robyn, is it's interesting because Satan can't hurt God by, like, directly, but indirectly by harming his kids. And similarly, we can, like you were saying, what do you give to God? Well, you give to other people. You give; you show Christ's love to others. So, it's interesting how Satan will try to hurt God by hurting his kids. And we can hopefully please God and be, do something that is a gift to him by loving his children also.
Right.
Yeah.
That's good.
Jon, in your blog you talked about receiving a gift from a stranger. And that can be, for some people, a difficult thing to do. There could be various hindrances to that. There could be for reasons of pride or reasons of embarrassment or reasons of feeling that you have to pay them back to receive a gift. So, just wonder if there's any thoughts about that idea of, have you ever received a gift from a stranger? Similar to how Jesus has given us the gift of his life, what is the, what is your reaction to being given a gift from a stranger?
Yeah, so I don't know if it'd be like a stranger per se, but I thought about this. It doesn't necessarily have to be monetary gift. The idea that, and I was just trying to relate it to my own personal experience, that sometimes I'll head to church, and about that time, for whatever reason, you know, Bethani and I might have a fight of some kind, my wife and I might have some sort of tension between us. And I walk into the service, and I believe that the worship team, I don't know if they could be considered like strangers, but the Lord is using them to offer encouragement to my life. They're inviting me to worship the Lord with them, and they're giving their gifts that, again, come from the Lord of their time and their effort, energy, their gifts, their talents of music. And I just want to go hide in the bathroom for the entire service because I don't want to come out because I feel so hypocritical. But I was thinking more about that. Not so much of a stranger, but my wife. And I'd just like to do kind of a little bit of a shoutout for her because, you know, I'm surprised by the gift of grace from times that I don't deserve it. I don't ever really deserve it, ever. But especially with Bethani, she tends to forgive quite easily and acts as though, you know, we just need to move on. And it doesn't, it's that slight, doesn't happen to her. So, I guess you might say that I'm surprised by grace. And for my wife, at times where I feel awkward, I don't feel like I deserve it. I haven't come to the point yet of apologizing. Maybe I have pride or whatever it is that's standing in the way.
Stay tough.
There we go. And she forgives and offers me, extends me that hand of grace and God's grace and that, so, yeah. I think those would be a lot of things that are in the way of me accepting that—the pride and the stubbornness and just feeling awkward and yucky and guilty and as I'll get out. And this can happen without, you know, my apology first, which is—so it's been, I was just thinking more about that and how it affected my life.
Yeah. And that's such the message of the gospel, too, is we don't deserve the grace. We don't deserve any of this. And that's why I do think it's tough sometimes to receive something so good. It's like it's in our human nature to clean ourselves up first to say, like, but I need to earn this. Like, I need, I need to earn whatever this amazing thing is. And yet Jesus is like, no, you don't need to earn. You can't, like, stop trying to earn this. Just, just accept this, receive it, and then, and then move forward. But yeah, I do think it's tough to receive something that's completely good and completely free because I don't think it's in our nature to receive it too well.
I can say one more thing on that. The second part of that question was, you know, how something the effect of how can you receive this in childlike faith? And those are the times that I really need to do that. And one thing my daughter has taught me a great deal. No matter what day it is, I can't think of one day that she hasn't gotten up in the morning and she takes her a few minutes to wake up. But after she wakes up, she's all about joy, all about playing with her toys, laughing, giggling. And even when there's things that are weighing heavy on my heart, getting up, she just brightens up my day. And so, I'm just thinking that's a childlike faith. I need to just be responding and not waste my time in kind of mulling over things. I just need to realize what God has done for me and is doing for me through others in forgiving me and then moving on. It's really good.
I don't know about you guys, but I think that in my own personal life, I look back on, there have been some situations where gifts given to me or money given to me has actually been used as tools of manipulation by people who don't have my best interests at heart. And so, that leaves a lasting impression, especially like when you're younger and then as you get older and people are genuinely just like, graciously trying to offer you something out of the kindness of their own heart, there's a lot of, like, skepticism behind receiving something, being fearful of, like, well, what are they expecting in return? And feeling like you owe somebody maybe something that you're not comfortable giving them, or, like, you don't have the means to or something. So, it is kind of like you're saying of like, is it like, is it going to be like a debt return? But I also think that sometimes gifts, especially if you're thinking of monetary gifts, and these ones in the Bible were monetary gifts, they can be used as tools for sometimes people's own personal gain. So maybe appearing that this is like just someone being benevolent or generous or whatnot, but a lot of times it can be tools for their own personal gain, ironically. And so, I've personally, like, had issues, I guess, like, with that kind of, like, receiving things and just being able to receive them without being like, okay, well, now I'm indebted to them. And like, almost like feeling like, like you're keeping, like a mental ledger of, like, what I owe someone in return. And I think that, I'm sure that that translates into our own relationship with the Lord, where, like, he doesn't keep a record of any wrongdoing. And so, he doesn't keep record, like, that of, like, what he has given us either. He just freely gives, and there's no, there is absolutely, like, no question of return. It's awesome when you do know the Lord. And I think that when you do receive from the Lord, it kind of creates this desire to give back. And, like, we're talking about, like, give back, especially unto other people, because you've received something and you want to, like, give it back. But I think that is, like, that paradox with the Lord is that he does truly, freely give with no expectation. And we are so foreign to that as human beings that it takes a minute to kind of like, it's a learned skill almost, to be able to receive something without feeling like I have to give something back. So.
The Schrute effect.
The what?
The Schrute effect.
Yeah. I actually was thinking of Andy Bernard and Dwight Schrute when I thought of that. So, yeah.
I'm gonna go totally conspiracy theory for a second, but.
Yes.
I love it. But you ever wonder about the saying that if it's too good to be true, it probably is? I wonder if that came up because of the salvation, because it's free gift that he gives us. And it is too good to be true and yet it is true. It actually is true. Right? But I wonder if there's people out there, like Satan, like, let's plant this seed into people's minds that this is too good to be true.
And that would be so, like, the enemy to sow those, like, sow that doubt. Like, did God really, would God really do that? You know? Like. Yeah.
Which may be why there's different ways that God describes the gift, you know, in some ways, he says, receive the free gift of eternal life, come to the water and drink freely, like he says in the Revelation. In other places, he's describing, he who has been forgiven little, loves little. He who has been forgiven much, loves much. And so, it's kind of like the same way of saying the same, or a different way of saying the same thing, in a way. It's like, well, if you have a hard time receiving a free gift, maybe flip it and realize that you actually owed more than you can ever owe and that debt was paid for.
Right.
Right.
So that's kind of the, there's kind of like a remedy, a Scriptural remedy for either mindset. If you're hesitant to receive a gift, well, God will say, well, you're being forgiven a debt. You know?
Right. Yeah. You did, actually. Fair enough. You did owe something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was paid for you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's no other religion on the planet besides Christianity that I know of where you're not having to try to do something to earn your way to salvation. It's just, it's.
No. Yep. And no other did God come down to earth to save the people. You always had to earn your way up to him.
No other with a guarantee.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've heard it said that there's a gap between the perfection that we all long for here, no matter what life you come from and what realistically happens in a day. So, when you get up in the morning, it is interesting, that obvious fact how we all miss that. We get up and we get into traffic, and we get upset at somebody that cuts us off. I mean, there's the, the idea was the perfection: I'm going to have a good commute to work and I'm not going to get cut off in traffic. But it happened. There's that gap. So, we all long for the eternity. We all long for the perfect, but it's never going to happen. And so, we need to kind of take that realistic view. And when it comes obviously to our salvation, you know, there's a longing. I would say there's probably a longing that everybody has for the perfection, perfect life. But it's like God has filled that gap for us as far as being able to get to heaven. And it's that easy. We accept the free gift of what Christ did on the cross for us, invite him into our lives, and it's a done deal.
Yep.
That's good.
So, looking back, I thought it was really interesting when we're talking about the prophecies, over 300 spoken about Jesus that Jesus then fulfilled, I was looking at it through the lens of gold, frankincense and myrrh. And Isaiah actually touched on those three, I think, anyways. So really quick, Isaiah 9:6-7, talking about gold and Christ's kingly, His kingship, it says,
"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore."
So, speaking about kingship in Jesus, I thought that was really, really cool. And then going on to the next one, frankincense. So, priestly mediation, again, like 700 years prior. Isaiah 53:4-6,
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."
So, the mediation between us and God. And then finally with myrrh. Isaiah 53:7-9. So, speaking of death.
"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth."
So, I mean, just 700 years prior, gold, frankincense, and myrrh was brought up from Isaiah. And then the magi bring gold, frankincense and myrrh. And then talking about John the Baptist, referencing basically kingship, priestly mediation and death. And so, this theme goes all throughout the Bible, which is kind of a trip. I never really realized that.
There's a graph that you can get that shows there's 66,000 references between Scriptures.
Oh, yeah, Cross referencing. Yeah. That's a really cool graph.
It's amazing. What other book in the world could you ever find that written by 40 different authors over 1,500 years?
It's mind blowing when you think about it.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that. In Solomon's day, frankincense was actually worth, it was the most costly item in the world, worth more than gold. That's why the Queen of Sheba brought him so much of it. Gift of honor.
That's interesting.
It's, it is always kind of cool to look at the Bible and where these elements also show up, these items also show up: gold, frankincense, myrrh. And like you said, they're mentioned in the Old Testament. They also appear in the New Testament in Revelation chapter 18. It's kind of a, kind of a different verse where all of gold and frankincense and myrrh show up, but it's referring to the fall of Babylon. And kind of the point I'm making is that it's not so much about the gift, but to whom it is given that it matters, right? So, in Revelation 18, starting in verse 11, it says,
"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her,"
that is, Babylon,
"since no one buys their cargo anymore, cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.
'The fruit for which your soul longed
has gone from you,
and all your delicacies and your splendors
are lost to you,
never to be found again!'"
So, when they are longing for the items themselves, there's loss, right? Now contrast that with in Psalm 63, starting in verse 1,
"O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you;
my soul thirsts for you;
my flesh faints for you,
as in a dry and weary land where there is no water."
Skipping down to verse 11,
"But the king shall rejoice in God;
all who swear by him shall exult,
for the mouths of liars will be stopped."
Bouncing over to Haggai chapter 2, starting in verse 8,
"'"The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, declares the Lord of hosts. The latter glory of this house,"'"
speaking of the temple,
"'"shall be greater than the former, says the Lord of hosts. And in this place I will give peace, declares the Lord of hosts."'"
So, there's a prophecy about the temple. Jesus also refers to himself, one greater than the temple is here. He says that, right, about himself.
In Matthew 23, Jesus says,
“'Woe to you, blind guides, who say, "If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath." You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? And you say, "If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath." You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.'"
So, it seems Jesus is clarifying that when they wanted to say that the gold itself is what is really important, he's saying it's not the gold itself, it's who it's to, it's the temple, that's what makes the sacrifice important. Similar to where David says they who swear by him, meaning, I think that means in the Psalm, those who swear by him, who are knowledgeable of swearing by what's important, God. God is the one who's important, right. That's what God is looking for is that heart posture that actually says their heart isn't tied to the, the item, the gold. They acknowledge that the one who's important is, is God. And so, there's just some other verses there that kind of tie in how these items are important to give and yet used in the wrong way, some people idolize them and such. And so, God is the one who ultimately, in presenting gifts to him, that's what kind of gives the items even more value, you know?
Right. Yeah.
And the act of giving these gifts to Jesus signified the value.
Well, and I think it's so fascinating there's such a parallel also with the three gifts and the temple itself, kind of like you were alluding to a little bit there. But if you read, I think it's in 1 Kings, how the temple is instructed for Solomon to build. So much gold. And then frankincense is used, if I'm not mistaken, for, I think it was with, for the priests and to sanctify items to make things sanctified and holy. And then myrrh was also used in the process as well. And so, it's, it is for the wise men, for the magi to be bringing Jesus these things, it's almost like a transfer, perhaps, maybe it's a little bit too much of a stretch, but a transfer of the temple is now moving to Jesus. And then obviously, Jesus, we were talking about this the other day, where Jesus says, destroy this temple and three days and I will build it up again. I mean, this is all, it's like a, it's a shift. It's this beautiful shift to Jesus and then we become the temple after that. And that is mind blowing.
Well, the temple was pretty central to what the magi could have understood the book of Daniel to be talking about. It's the construction of the temple or the destruction of the temple and then the command to rebuild it. Right? The temple is very much involved in what they were looking for as the cues prophetically to Jesus' birth. Right? And so, there's a lot there.
Yeah. The rebuilding of, the rebuilding of the temple, but with Jesus? I mean.
Blew my mind a little bit there.
Isn't that something?
I mean, dang.
Yeah, very. I will never look at that the same. That's amazing.
Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic today.
Yeah. So, one closing that I had, we talked about the prophetic significance of the gifts and then talking a little bit about Isaiah, how there's prophetic kind of like a, it was also prophetically spoken, as if talking about gold, frankincense and myrrh. And one last little bit that I thought was really interesting is when Jesus was on the cross, these three elements come up one more time, it sure seems, anyways. And so: gold, kingship; frankincense, priestly mediation; and then myrrh, death. So, the kingship is, he's wearing the crown of thorns, and then there is above his head, basically what he's accused of, which says, behold the King of the Jews. And then so, gold. And then frankincense, priestly mediation. Jesus cries out,
“'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.'”
So, mediating for us. And then obviously the death. And so, those three elements come into play one more time when he's on the cross. And I love how that just happens once again.
Wow.
And they do mix in myrrh with the vinegar.
Vinegar, sure. Yeah. Yep.
He refused it though.
Yeah.
And then the myrrh shows up In John chapter 19, in verse 38,
"After these things,"
this is the death of Jesus on the cross,
"After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took away his body. Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight. So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, since the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there."
So, Joseph of Arimathea, another case where there's someone like, kind of not super likely, like he was a secret follower, you know, and he makes it into the narrative.
Yeah.
Nicodemus, who approached Jesus at night—we can speculate, because he wanted it to be a secret—he also makes it into the narrative at the burial.
Yeah.
And the myrrh makes an appearance.
Yeah.
So, I think that's interesting how, that, it's not like they were ashamed of Jesus, like, I don't take that verse, whoever is ashamed of me, Jesus will be ashamed of them before his Father in heaven—I'd like to dive in a little more to understand the nuances of those terms there—because they made it into the narrative there, and yet they were secretly following him. So, I just kind of take that to be some kind of encouragement for the hidden church, you know? Those who are hiding, maybe in other countries, you know, for fear of getting killed, you know, there's something probably encouraging in those two accounts there, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, I would think, to be encouraged in their faith there.
That's good. Yeah.
I was thinking about how it wasn't just the wise men who visited Jesus, it was the shepherds. And I love that Jesus came for everybody. And how does that not encompass everybody in the whole world? Right? And just the beautiful symbolism that we all belong to him and whoever wants to come to him, no matter what your station, who you are, what's going on in your life, everyone is welcome. It's a very, very different people groups. Right? And both were welcome at that table.
That's good. I love that. That's good.
Any comments sans Tom?
No.
He has a very pregnant wife at home.
Behold, Tom was gone.
Were there not five of you? Where is the one?
Five will be podcasting.
Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Please like and subscribe if you're so inclined.
Be inclined.
Thank you, panelists. Thank you, listeners. We look forward to another episode soon.
Merry Christmas everybody.
Merry Christmas.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe, and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com.
