S1 E9 | "Follow" Part Two | Bible Study John 1:43-45

Welcome once again to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times. Psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll is your host today. My name is Chris, co-host. And we welcome once again Robyn Nelson, Special Education Teacher; Rogelio Navarro, LMHCA; and once again, Maxine Toh, Christian Life Coach. Welcome, everybody. Thank you. Today we are continuing our conversation on the topic of "follow" as is found in the book of John. Opening thoughts as we continue this discussion going around the table, Dr. Jon. Yeah. Well, so I think about opening thought is going to be more of a story. So, a buddy of mine was talking to me a little while back about the day that he and his girlfriend broke up. And he was saying how she was always kind of getting on him about his poor sense of direction, of all things. Kind of a weird thing to focus on, but they were always getting kind of lost and late for, late for parties and get togethers. And then she would also say things like, like, you know, how can I trust you to lead our relationship if we can't even, you know, get to, you know, from A to B? And so, he was like, man, I just, like, I heard about it on and on so much that I finally just right. This thing on? Yeah. Yup. All right. All right. Yeah. You're having a stroke? Oh, man. What's going on over there? It was a joke. Oh. Oh. So, I finally just right. Anyways, so moving on. I don't think we got it. Oh, man. I need it explained to me. I was so caught up in this story. I really was. I was like, she sounds awful. I was trying to guess who the friend was. Was I distracted? Should we just cue a laugh track, or? Yes. You have those. We'll cut to the laugh track. Holy Moses. No. Maybe our listening public doesn't think it was funny either. Or they didn't get it. It went over my head. Oh, it went over everybody's head. No, I thought. Say it again. He finally just right? He left! He left! What was the punchline? The punchline is he got so tired of it, he finally just left. But he has such a poor sense of direction that he finally just right. Oh. He finally just right. That is so good. It really is really good when you get it. That's really good. Thanks. Everybody's just looking at me. Oh, boy. I thought it was an anecdote. Kind of was. Well, anyways, I can keep on going with my opening. It wasn't just that. Okay. Please continue. It wasn't just that. Hold on, before you continue, is this a true story? Is this based off of. Oh. No, no. It's just a joke. Okay. Because you're gonna. You're gonna watch the recording. You're gonna see my face being like. The nerve. She's reaching. The nerve. We're like. We're like little kids. We're like, what happened to the girl? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, little Timmy. The girl, she's fine. The boy's fine, too. Happy ending. Did they get a new car? No, they broke up, little Timmy. Aw. Mercy. Okay, so. Okay, so with going back to the topic of what takes the most importance in someone's life, like, what's at the top of the hierarchy, going back to that, I think that in life, we can really tell what is most important in someone's life. Usually, like, if it's work, right? It's a workaholic. Always at work. It's a relationship. Always thinking about that person. If it's a drug, alcohol. Right? Always wanting that next hit or that next drink. Fast food, always finding another time to go through the drive thru. And so, I guess one thought I kind of had is, as believers, is it evident that we are following Christ? And so, like, do people, like, know, like, you have a "problem" with Christ in that sense, right? Like, you're always thinking about him. You're always, you know, doing things as he would want you to do. And I feel like that one of the more concerning things that somebody, like, a comment that someone can make about, like, a Christ-follower was like, "oh, really? You're a Christian?" Cause that's obviously, it just indicates that he might not be at the very top of the pinnacle there. And so, it's just kind of thought that I had there. Yeah. And I think that also Matthew 6:21 says, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." And so, yeah, I think that where our focus is, again, that's gonna be what's at the top of the hierarchy. And hopefully, people, it's not a surprise when they find out that you're a follower of Christ. That's good. Yeah. I love what you said about that because it actually reminded me of when you, you guys were referencing the scripture last time about follow me as I follow Christ. And so, I was thinking, a great question to ask yourself is, if someone decided to imitate you and your life, would that look like Christ? And if it doesn't, question mark. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But, yeah, one of my opening thoughts was around, like, really what it means to follow. And I think for a lot of us who are not just, like, brand-new believers or hopefully not even brand-new believers, but we're not really wrestling with those big issues of, like, "am I gonna kill someone today?" You know, or, like, things like that, right? And so sometimes I think we also need to go beyond the idea of just following, like, the Ten Commandments or right or wrong, but really, like, moving into—and this is kind of the season that I'm moving into with the Lord, is—what does it look like to really follow Jesus on a day-to-day basis, and not only in the right or wrong decisions, but just allowing him to influence how I spend my time, how I spend my energy, who I talk to. And so, one of the areas I'm moving into is this concept of, like, prophesying your week, your month, your year, your day. And so, what that could look like is just in the morning just saying, "Hey, God, here's like, what do you have for me today?" "What should I be on the lookout for?" "Who should I be reaching out to," etc. And just being nudged and allowing yourself to be moved by Holy Spirit and walking with him in that. So, maybe more on that later, but I'll start with that. I think that's a great theme of what does it mean to follow, because the Spirit, the Lord's Spirit isn't, like, necessarily, like, obvious or visible to the, to the eye. Sometimes it does take that still small voice to know, "What does it mean to follow?" And I like how you pointed out, to imitate is to follow. I think there's a lot of distortion around, I think, especially for people when they hear the word follow or follow this or this is what we follow, I think people can get the impression that it's people trying to get other people to just follow an agenda. You know, like, to follow me is to accept that I know better than you. And I think we can get lost in, like, sort of man, man's authority, fighting with man's authority. But really what it means to follow the Holy Spirit, which, of course, is gradual, and I can't even put it into words. And even just the limitations of, like, what, you know, even just trying to describe what it means to follow God like it, there's some real profound, even mystery there as well. But of course, like, we, we've been revealed at least, you know, in the sacred scripture. We've been revealed, you know, some of that mystery. But to follow Christ, I think it's worth sitting with that, just pondering with that. What does that mean? Yeah, there's just. I feel like that's a deep question. That's good. Yeah. I have been thinking a lot on, I think, about 21 years ago when I first started following Jesus, I don't think I could have ever fathomed that following Jesus or anybody—I guess the concept of following—would require so much of me laying down my own will. And it has been, I think it's like, finally formulating in my mind this, like, cognitive thought of, like, to follow Jesus is to do his will, which inherently means that I am not doing my own. Because if I was just going about following Jesus' will, and I had no contradiction with that, then it would just be me going about being me. But I also think it's interesting how often I hear, I guess, people talking about Christianity like it's a crutch, which I suppose there is an element of dependence, not an element, absolute dependence on Jesus. But there it is, like constantly choosing to lay down what I want and seek what Jesus wants, which means that I am always doing things that I don't necessarily want to do, which sounds—that's not really an advertisement for Christianity—but it means there's this natural tendency to do something my own way, and I have to decide, come to an active decision to follow Jesus instead, which inevitably, in every single time, ends up being worth it and ends up being me trading off something I thought I wanted for something that God actually wanted for me that was way better in the end. I mean, every single time, like, without fail, God has been good. But it's like, finally kind of really clicking with my mind that I have an active will against what God wants, and I have to be laying that down perpetually to follow Jesus. So, like, this idea of following God is getting broader and broader in my mind, and it's in some ways getting more and more challenging. But God is, I think, maturing my character and maturing, I guess, like, what I want at the same time, too. My desires look more and more like his at the same time. So, there is that trade off of, like, I'm not only laying down my will, but I'm gaining his will internally and, like, otherwise. Right. So. Yeah, well, it's like, for a season, it's like it's a daily reminder to take ourselves off the top of the hierarchy, because when it really comes down to it, it's my will, not yours, in conversation with God. And that will just lead down to hedonistic roads. Whatever makes us feel good. So, yeah, until our wills start to align where we do start to take on the identity of Christ more and more. And it's actually like, no, the things of the world, they don't taste as good they used to. It's like, you know, not drinking soda for, like, a couple of months, and then all of a sudden you drink, like, a Mountain Dew or a Coke. And, like, I mean, it. Yeah, it tastes good, but it's. There's something. It's not what it used to be. Like, it actually, it's not appealing anymore. Yeah. This episode is not sponsored by Mountain Dew or Coke. It's very true. Disclaimer. And if it was, we just lost the sponsorship. That's right. Mountain Dew sucks. No, actually, I drank. I used to drink it a lot in high school. And Reese's peanut butter cups. Well, Reese's peanut butter cups. But together, I mean, so that was gross. I'm not anti-Mountain Dew, but for your health, you probably shouldn't do too much of it. It's definitely a high school thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. But you're in. You're in good company here. Good. You know, no one's judging you. Safe space. Yeah. You know, there's something about following where, you know, it's like, the idea you brought up of, like, of letting go, of following my own thoughts or my own agenda. Like, I think it can be confusing for a lot of us. Like, to follow the truth means that, like, I'm gonna be, like, anti myself or something. And I think that's. I think that there's some distortion there, because I think to follow is actually to choose what's in the best interest of, like, what's good for us. To follow the Lord is, like, you know, like, to imitate Christ is, like, it's better for me. And it's sort of like this idea of, like, for example, like, sin, right? There can be some distortion there. It can be very rules based. Like. Like, sin is like, you know, you're bad or, like. Or like. Or, you know, just follow. Do what you're told. Like, it's just some oppressive force. But what we needed to remove the distortion there is that. Like, for example, with sin, it's like, it's really just to settle for less than what's best for me. Like, and if I. If I just acknowledge it that way, like, it's less than what's best for me. So, to not follow the Holy Spirit is actually less than what God intends for me, which is what's best. Like, it's like the best version of myself, the most whole version. Right? To follow from brokenness to wholeness. Like, it's an ongoing journey, but that's, that's what's needed. Right. And following isn't just like, oh, you just lose yourself. It's like. And also, because I know from experience how much I've lost myself when I've tried following my own thoughts and, you know, just a million different things that aren't what's needed. Yeah. It's like trading great for good in some cases. I think C.S. Lewis spoke about that, too, where it's like he was talking about some particular sins, and he's like, well, it's. There's obviously there is some good element to it, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it. But it's not great. It could be great. And so, I think we can really be deceived by good in this world. Yeah. I think for me also, one of the things that holds me back sometimes is just fear. And so having to overcome that. And so, one of the common questions I've learned to ask my clients when they're making a big decision is what's driving you and really deciding, like, is it just fear or, you know, or is it your core values that are really driving you? Or another question I like to ask them is looking back a year from now or ten years from now, or when you're 90 in your rocking chair, what decision would you have wanted to make and what story would you have wanted to tell? So those are some of the questions that I've learned to. That's so good. When you're 90, it's like nothing, quote unquote, "matters" what you did or didn't do in the sense of not taking that chance or not doing that thing that was scary. It kind of removed the emotion and it goes, okay, my core value, my ideal self would I wanted to do. One of the questions I ask my clients when it comes to anxiety is like, you know, it's pretty, pretty basic, pretty common, but, like, will this matter like, a year from now? Will it matter a month from now? Will it matter a week from now? We can stretch that out, you know, will it matter, like, ten years from now? Our grandpa used to say something a little bit more dark was like, well, in 100 years, we're all going to be dead anyway, so it doesn't really matter. So, it's like, what's keeping us back? Yeah, that's good. I love this idea that you brought up of imitating Christ, because I think that's a good way to look at what does it mean to follow Christ, to really want to be more like him, to become more like him? I think that's a powerful way to say it because, like, even in that scripture where, you know, it talks about, I don't recall it precisely, but where it says that Jesus didn't consider the position of God to be grasped at, like, he kind of, like, was willing to surrender that in a sense that the privileges of sitting on his throne for being on a cross. Right. He was able to let go of even that dignity, of, like, being seated on the throne. And there's so many things that, like, that we cling to and we really just ought to be more humble in that way and just coming back to that. Following humility. Yeah, it's like in 1 Peter, chapter 2, verse 21, "For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps." And that's a big part of the following of him is following in those steps. You know, it's hopefully that's in the back of everyone's mind when they, when they follow him, is that. And he was very clear about that, that this is the path that he's going. But the alternative is not following. And the alternative is the ways of the world, which there's not really much of a future in that. Yeah, it's like when people do comment like, Christianity is a crutch. It's like, well, following in Jesus steps, that's no path that a sane person would actually want to take just in natural circumstances, because he was killed and all of his disciples, minus John, were martyred. John was boiled alive and he survived. And it's like, that's not a crutch. To your earlier point about a crutch, yes. It can help us through some difficult times, obviously, but Jesus' footsteps are not easy. No. I'm wondering about this idea of how if somebody begins to follow Jesus, how does that change over time? For example, Robyn, I think you were saying, like, somehow as time progresses or you become more mature in him, that the choices differ eventually somewhat from the way it was initially. So, what are some examples, perhaps, of how the choices after following Jesus for a day vary from following him a year or ten years or 20 years? Are the choices, do they change at all, or are the examples any different? Are the challenges any different? Are the things that one might feel they need to let go of any different over time, or how does that change at all, if any? I think one simple way of looking at it is if every time Jesus is telling you to do something, you're, like, really excited or to do it. It might not be necessarily Jesus, if that makes sense. Like, I think you kind of get to a certain point where you're looking at, oh, I think that God is telling me to maybe take a job where I have a smaller salary or maybe take on something where I'm moving. Like, I remember moving to Los Angeles, and I am not a city girl, but that was purely, like, I felt for a long time that God was calling me to move to Los Angeles for a little bit there, but I have no love for the city. You know what I mean? Couldn't take the farm girl out of the girl. What is it? I am an aspiring farm girl, but. Not that. In Los Angeles. Yeah, but I guess I think that after a certain amount of time that you, like, you learned that, I mean, everybody's journey is different, but I think that for many years after I first met Jesus, there was a lot of stuff that I did that really, it coincided with what my thoughts were right, I guess. And after a while, I don't know if I just learned better or if I learned the Word better or I had better mentors and things like that, but it was really choosing a path of wisdom versus choosing just what I wanted to do in those moments. And that might just be maturity coming. But at the same time, I also think that in following Jesus, like, there's a scripture that talks about how he gives us the desires of our heart. And I think that one interpretation of that is that, like, we have these desires, and he grants us those desires. And the other interpretation is that he actually, like, he instills those desires in us. So, as we get to know him more and we're following him, our desires become his desires, and so we also change and pursue what he wants for us. Like, is that making sense? Absolutely. Yeah. Maybe you guys can help me out with this one. So is there. Where in the Bible does it say God gave them over to their desires? I think it was Romans somewhere. Is it that wording? Yeah, because I think that's really interesting. God grants you the desires of your heart. Another portion of scripture says he gave them the desires of their heart. Great point. Which was not following Christ. It was leading them down a path of destruction. But he gave it to them as he said that he would. Right. It's interesting that we can almost train our desires. If we're, like Mountain Dew. How to train your desires. Next book by Dr. Jon. There's probably a pruning that happens there. What are the genuine desires? Yeah. And then as you continue following Jesus, that mental idea, like, this is actually good. You got to keep reminding yourself that this is for the future, the unseen future in the heavenly realm and the treasure in heaven. This is not for the here and now, but the reward is later. And so, keeping that in mind, like, I'm identifying with Jesus now, following him now, because it was for the joy set before him that he endured the suffering. So, it's the same for us. It's that mindset helps you get through. It helps you actually turn that emotion into excitement, basically. Yeah. Following Jesus is like the biggest scale of delayed gratification to a certain extent, because instant gratification would be getting what I want right here, right now because it feels good in the flesh. But to delay all of that, even to things unseen, even to things post death, I mean, that is a massive form of delayed gratification. And, you know, it's kind of cool how we're not just following, like, what are the fruits that, like, I'm gonna get out of following Christ, like, you know, prosperity or whatever. It's not. It's because, like, even, like you were saying, in suffering or it's, like, in sickness and in health, it's like, who we're following. It's like this rootedness. Like, I like the analogy of, like, a tree, you know, where it's like. Like, even in, like, I was gonna say a storm again, where just, like, there could be no fruit, it could be dry leaves, it could be just, like, kind of destroyed, but, like, not. The roots won't. The roots won't be pulled out. Right. And so I like that idea that, like, in seeking more of a union with Christ, it's not really about, like, what am I gonna get? Like, in, like, a worldly way, it really is, like, sowing into, like, in a spiritual way. Like, what truly is the most loving thing. Yeah. Yeah. Because I also. In one way, I like to give voice to maybe, like, the non-believers that could be listening or who are considering what it means to follow Christ. And I think there's probably some misconceptions that it's, like, following. It's almost like wearing a badge of honor or something. Like, look at me, I'm following purity or some kind of a pride thing. And so, I'm really reminded of this verse. This is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, the 1 Peter 5:5, where it says, all of you clothe yourselves with humility toward one another because God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxieties on him because he cares for you. And I love that idea of following the one who cares for you. The one who cares for me. Yeah. That's about love. That's good. Yeah. It's like a sense of humility gives you focus on Christ, because it's like, I don't know it all. Yeah. That's good. I was reflecting on your question from earlier, Chris, and I think I alluded to this a bit earlier, but I think the season of life I'm in right now really is learning to just lean into the small, still small voice of God and those little nudges. And I think that when we first accept Christ, we have a decision about whether we want to just have him be a silent partner in our life and just go, cool, I'm saved. Or really, if we really, truly believe in who God is, it's like having, pardon the credit, but it's like having a life coach where you can ask him anything. And also, I think that he has all these wonderful assignments for us, and every day can become truly an adventure when we really listen to him. So, the other day I was driving, and I was like, hey, God, what do you want to talk about? A friend's name popped into my head, and I just thought, I could have just thought, oh, that's random, that's pizza, whatever. But I thought, maybe God wants me to reach out to her. And so, I reached out to her. I hadn't talked to her in, like, five years, and we ended up just having a really timely conversation, and I was able to really encourage her. And so, I think that's partially what it looks like for me. But the other part that I wanted to talk about is that my journey may be a little bit different, but I think there are other folks who can relate to this as well. I grew up in a Christian home, and for me, obedience was never really the hard part. I wasn't like a rebel. I was like a traditionally good Asian child, you know? And so, it really easy for me to obey, but almost to the point where it was almost like I was checking out of my own self connection and what I really wanted. And so, it was almost like there was a long journey, probably like a decade of my life where I moved from becoming a slave to a daughter, and there's actually a scripture where Jesus talks about, no longer do I call you servants, because servants do not know about their master's business, but I call you friends. And so that's been a big part of my journey as well. So, the example I think of is some number of years ago, I was thinking about going to a conference down at Bethel, and I just thought there's, like, five different conferences. And I started praying, you know, and I just said, God, which conference should I go to? The one on healing, the one on the prophetic, etc. And I could not, like, hear what he was saying, and I finally just said, okay, God, what am I missing? Like, what's the question I should be asking? And I just sensed this question come up in my spirit, and he just said, what do you want? And I was like, what you care about what I want? And so, it was just I had so lost touch with, like, what I even want. And so, I think about that idea of, like, you know, if you were a parent and your kid said, what should I do? Who should I marry? What should I do? You know, you just say, I love you, like, I made you and I gave you the desires of my heart, and I trust you, like, and so I think that there's a part of, as you mature as a believer, that becomes more of, like, in the beginning and kind of, like, in the Old Testament, there was a lot of rules because you were a kid, you didn't really know what to do. But as you mature in your faith, like, there's almost this co-laboring piece, too. And so, to end that story, I decided I was like. I'm kind of interested in the prophetic, and it just blew open this whole journey for me where I'm so passionate about it, and God's, like, so excited to partner with me in that because my desires became his desires or vice versa. Right. And so that's just been some of the journey that I've been on as well. So good. That's awesome. Very cool. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like, you know, as time unfolds, God works with the very thing that he created you to be. And as the hindrances are worked through and worked around and overcome, then it's not like he'll discard the desires that he put in you the way that he created you. He'll actually help you become more of that or grow into that, I guess, is another way of putting it. That's very good. Very cool. I love the co-participating. Yeah. Yeah. Well, closing thoughts on the topic of "follow," Dr. Jon? Sure. Yeah. So, I think it's kind of interesting how a lot of, like, our culture and society will use the phrase, "follow your heart." And then, like, the Bible is like, the heart is the most deceitful above all things. So, I guess my little closing thought is what we feel and what our heart is telling us might not actually be the thing that we need to follow and search after. And just always putting Christ at that top part, the one who we are following, the treasure that we are seeking. When he is at the top, everything else starts to fall into place. Yeah. In fact, everybody's following something, whatever's in their heart or whatever they, like, really hold dear. We will follow those things. And in a lot of ways, like, proper worship in the heart is what actually gets us to follow the Holy Spirit. And it sounds really nice, but also just acknowledging how broken that I am, that's why I need to follow. And I think that's always the starting point, is that I need God, I need his mercy, I need his grace, and I'm just utterly dependent. It's like I can't do anything by myself that's worthwhile or that'll last, or that'll achieve anything, really, without his mercy. So just one closing thought on that, too, is I actually just recently heard about sort of the scripture of King Solomon saying, like, it's all, like, vanities of vanities. Like, it's all vapor. Like, even. Even the wise, like, without the Lord, even the wise have the same fate as fools. Like, we're all just, like, trying to, like, make ourselves and be righteous for our own sake. But, like, when it really, it really comes down to giving God the glory, then that's, like, when we can participate in his righteousness and it's all about him. Yeah, that's great. I think for me, one of the things that I just want to encourage folks on is I think we all have really good intentions when we're trying to follow the Lord and we are asking him the big questions. But I think it can also be very stressful when you're not used to hearing God's voice and then you're trying to ask him about a huge decision where you're like, I have 24 hours to make this decision about moving across the country and taking this job. My encouragement to you is to practice hearing in the small things and just, you know, the things that are not so emotionally charged. Like, okay, God, like, should I do this or this and just really learn to hear that voice, because it's like my sheep hear my voice, they recognize my voice. So, as you learn to recognize his voice in the smaller things, it gives you more confidence to make those bigger decisions and know that you're hearing him, so. I have nothing more to add at this time. Fair enough. Something might come. What? Was it Paul who said, follow me as I follow. Yeah, let's get that in there. It wouldn't be a "follow" episode without talking about what Paul said. All right, well, excellent discussion. Thank you once again for joining us. Thank you everybody. We look forward to another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. soon. Take care, everybody. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to, like, share, subscribe, and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. 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