S2 E8 | "Bridegroom" | Bible Study John 3:22-30

Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times. Along with psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll, my brother, my name is Chris. I'm your host once again. Today we're joined with Mandy Michaels of Reach Ministry, Robyn Nelson, Special Education Teacher, and Rogelio Navarro, Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate. Welcome back, everybody. Good to be back, man. Hello. In this podcast, we've been mostly going through the Book of John ever since about episode two or so, with a handful of exceptions there. But we are now in John chapter 3, and we're going to look at verses 22-30 out of the ESV. And each episode we take a word to kind of focus on. We're going to focus in on the word "bridegroom" today from this passage. So, I'll go ahead and read our opening Scripture here and then we'll turn it around to the panel for opening thoughts on this topic. "After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized (for John had not yet been put in prison). Now a discussion arose between some of John's disciples and a Jew over purification. And they came to John and said to him, 'Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.' John answered, 'A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, "I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him." The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease.'" That's our opening passage there where John the Baptist, this is the first time that he refers to Jesus as the bridegroom or a bridegroom. And it's not the first time in Scripture altogether. There's Old Testament references and then there's later references in the New Testament, including Jesus himself mentioning that term. So opening thoughts around the table and we'll dive in a little deeper. Dr. Jon. Yeah, so it's, well, good to be here again with everybody today. And I think that it is interesting how John's disciples were feuding about purification. And then that kind of paves the way for John to start talking about the bridegroom. And I don't know, then I started to think about how the author of the book, John, how he just recently wrote about the wedding at Cana and now we're talking about a bridegroom and then water's involved also. And so, I don't think it's like. I think that it's a pretty cool mix between the imagery of the bridegroom and purification, because I—the wedding at Cana, Jesus turns water into wine. And the thing that, the thing that John does when his disciples, John the Baptist's disciples, are talking about purification is he points people towards Jesus. And it's almost like what Jesus does. Like he—when Nicodemus was talking to him—it's almost like he kind of flips the script and just starts talking about what is actually the most important thing in that moment. And John the Baptist does the same thing. He just like points right towards Christ and says, look, almost as indicating you want to talk about purification, he's the one that's going to be the one that can purify. No amount of water is going to purify the way that he is. And so, I just love the fact that he just kind of took what they were debating and then pointed them directly towards Jesus. So, I guess that was kind of my opening thought. Yeah, I love that humility he shows in that moment, right? Where he could take so much of that credit for himself, but instead he says, no, it's not about me. Right. What an incredible example of who we should be, right? In our lives, is to be less of us and more of Jesus in everything we do. Something that stood out to me is that throughout the Old and New Testament, there's such a emphasis on being the bride of God. You know, in the Old Testament is the, Israel was the bride of God the Father. In the New Testament, you become the church, becomes the bride of Christ, and then Revelation, it culminates to this wedding feast. It's such a beautiful analogy, and it's so real. Like, we're actually going to have this feast in eternity with Jesus, and that's what we're striving for. Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of passion about this topic, just from a personal level and talking about marriage and being the bridegroom of Christ and that analogy, because I feel like in society, a lot of folks, a lot of us have become a little bit calloused to the idea of having like this full on commitment from one person to another, this reciprocal, unconditional—or entering into the unconditional love that always comes from Christ and points toward Christ. And so, just this analogy of the bridegroom and then as it relates to us being the bridegroom of Christ, sorry, the bride of Christ, Christ the bridegroom. I really love that topic. So that's all I have right now. Yeah, I am probably pretty similar in that way. Bless you. Glad we got that on camera. That was me being dramatic. I'm so sorry. I didn't actually need—like there was something bubbling in there. It was more than bubbling. But I just feel like I cough so much that I was like, well, let's just go full on "bleh." So that was more of a dramatic noise than anything. It wasn't real. I wanted to because I feel like we already threw out a few different thoughts there. But I feel like most similarly I can relate to Rogelio. There's kind of like a personal passion that I have about this subject and I, I've really, especially in the past couple of years, the Lord has taken me through a lot of Scripture pertaining to this and I think he's really emphasized how important it is to him that he, like the institution of marriage in general, and why he's chosen that institution and that relationship to sort of like illustrate his love for us in and his commitment to us. And I think the one thing that I also really noticed in this like last night going through this is there are so many references to the bridegroom throughout the Bible, like you were saying. But there's almost like no space where the bridegroom is mentioned without the bride as if to like say that like they are, like we know this like in our head, like they are unified as one. But like it's as if like, God has his like skin in the game in this. And so like, anything that happens to the bride, his church also happens to him. And it really kind of, it really put, did a number on my head last night as far as like there is, there's no place that I can go or that I can do that like God isn't also going to go there with me. And like everything that happens to me, is also very much happening to him. Like he really is fully 100% invested in this and then fully 100% invested in his church and like the bride being his church and then that like you were talking about the purification aspect of that. Like there's, these are only opening thoughts. But I'm just like, there are Scriptures that also kind of came into circulation there too, as well, that would speak to that, so. That makes me think of the, when Jesus talks about being a shepherd, and if one of your sheep goes astray, wouldn't you leave the 99 to go after the 1? Right. It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember a preacher saying something like, be careful speaking against the church, because kind of like you're saying the bride and the bridegroom, they kind of go together a lot in Scripture. And so, to speak against the bride, the bridegroom might not take too kindly to that. Yeah. And a lot of people think that perhaps they get a pass at criticizing, you know, a, maybe call it a work in progress, in a sense. The church is being refined, I suppose, and the wedding day is not yet here, but God is at work, you know, making the bride ready, I suppose, in a sense there. Well, that was very graceful. Bless you. Yeah. Bleh. Bleh. Well done. He knows how to do it. I think we're officially at that point where I'm, like, way too comfortable with you guys, so I apologize. Each person gets one good cough. That's right. Go for it, Jon. Just let 'er rip. We're good. Yeah. It's interesting how it says there in that passage in John. John's disciples came up and wanted to talk about basically purification, or that was the, that was the initial topic was purification there. And then John basically takes this bridegroom thought and inserts that into the conversation, right? And it's like, there's what's happening and then there's what's actually happening. Like, what's happening is baptism in the water. Right. But what's actually happening, it is the baptism of repentance, right? And it reminds me of in Ephesians 5, where in verse 32, it says, "This mystery is profound...I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church." He's saying, I'm talking about marriage. That's what's happening. But what's actually happening is this is imagery reflective of Jesus and the church. And so, it's interesting how sometimes it can be missed, like the symbolism or the actions, what it is that they represent is like the more important thing there. In Ephesians 5, it says in verse 25, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word," And so, when we have John's disciples and a Jew talking about purification, we can kind of speculate as to how that conversation happened. It's like the Jew might be like, Well, hey, water, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we use that for ceremonial purification, huh? Well, we use it for baptizing and for repentance. Well, that's interesting, tell me. I mean, that's the commonality of the water. Water, huh? Big Gulps, huh? Welp. Might have been more profound than that. Yeah, but yeah. Anyway, that was the common thing, and they were both having a different approach to, you know, what does this represent? What is the purpose? Or what is the bigger purpose? Right. The Pharisees or the Jew in that instance, might have had Numbers 19:12 in mind. It says, just speaking of some of the law, an example of that, how the water comes into play there is, "He shall cleanse himself with...water on the third day and on the seventh day, and so be clean. But if he does not cleanse himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not become clean." This is Numbers 19:12 speaking of what the physical washing of the water, what some of them might have actually settled in their minds—it's all about the physical. Right. Whereas John's disciples might have had Ezekiel 36 in mind, verses 25-27, and "'I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.'" So that's the other backdrop is this understanding that it's more than just a physical cleansing. We're headed to a purification here. And the disciples of John were unique in that they were, they kind of saw more of the real purpose of the repentance. They weren't yet like Jesus disciples, they still had more to be revealed to understand what exactly is happening here. But at least they understood that it was kind of a matter of the heart a little more. So. Right. And so, they're this unique kind of middle ground disciple, kind of. Jesus is just appearing on the scene, and yet it seems like they've taken to heart a lot of what some of the Old Testament prophets were saying as to what actual matters of purification are. Anyway, any thoughts on how John's disciples were kind of like the initial, some of the people to first get, really take hold of that repentance is a matter of the heart, that God is purifying the church. Right. And yet the bridegroom, that was still a new revelation yet to be revealed to them. They had not yet maybe understood that layer of things, yet they did understand the repentance aspect of it, it seems. And it's almost like they get a little bit of a bad rap for asking the question. I mean, and they're just being honest. They're just like, hey, you know, they're, he's doing what we're doing. So, it's almost like they're trying to. Well, I guess it depends on how you read it. Are they trying to get clarification or are they defending their territory? And maybe it's a little bit of both, depending on what disciple was talking. But it is interesting how they're like kind of the first, the first of the disciples, like you're saying, to start to understand a little bit more like what this is all about. Because, yeah, for centuries, water was about purification. It wasn't about repentance. It was about, you know, cleaning yourself and ritualistically going through that. And now they saw it as something different. And then John's like, hold on. It's like there's actually something we're not quite there yet. Look at Him. This is going to be something that is going to be far deeper than, you know, even what we're doing here today. Yeah. I saw two things there. One is that it really speaks a lot to John's teaching because they would have been following what he was speaking out about Jesus, right? And it also, you know, really is impressive in the culture that is so soaked in religion and is so, they would have been raised up in this idea that you have to work for everything. And part of that working is to be cleansed, right? So, to be able to see beyond what their culture has said and see beyond what they grew up in is pretty amazing, actually. Chris, I love how you brought up that part in Ephesians where it says about how, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word," because the washing of water, it's like that purification process that even as we enter into relationship with Christ, as we, the church, enter into a committed relationship with Christ, there's also a cleansing that's happening within us. And so, I really love that idea of like, purification as you progress in intimacy with Christ. Yeah, that's super good. Actually, I'll just jump in really quick is because you said you kind of highlighted the cleansing of the water with the Word. So, Barnes' Notes on the Bible, he writes, "By the word - There has been much diversity of opinion respecting the meaning of this. Probably the sense of the expression is, that all this was to be accomplished by the instrumentality of the truth - the Word of God. By that truth they were to be sanctified...and in accordance with that the whole work from the commencement to the close was to be accomplished. It was not by external ceremonies, and not by any miraculous power on the heart, but by the faithful application of truth to the heart." And so, I mean, kind of just a little bit mimicking what you just said. But yeah, it's that line kind of stood out to me too, is the cleansing of water with the Word. And that's that was the moment I, okay, what is, what does that mean? Right. So, I had to like, okay, I need to go look that up a little bit. Yeah. Nice. I was just thinking, have you guys like, ever, in kind of like a practical sense, like, seen someone get into a marriage relationship and watch them change over time? Oh, yeah. And then sometimes for the better, and then sometimes not for the better. But I actually, I have a friend, I'm, I think of that I—I've known her for like 20 years—and when I first met her, she was a youth leader of mine and she was in this marriage. It was really, really, really hard. And she was kind of like, really. The way I remember her is she was very. She had like, a lot of walls. Like, she was really nice, but she just had like, you just kind of couldn't get close to her sort of thing. And then eventually some things happened in their marriage. They had to get divorced, but she remarried. And I still know her to this day. And I just remember thinking like a whole 'nother side of her came out, like, where she just was like, soft and she's like open with people and she just like, it's like you can see that she's been walking in healing in a way that she wasn't in prior before. And it. This is like kind of what I'm thinking of with this like, purification process almost is like, not just that, like, I'm clean of sin, but like I'm walking now. And like, clearly, she's been well-loved. Like, and not that God wasn't enough to love her, but I think that he operates in these, like, earthly relationships oftentimes to like, further that purpose. But I'm kind of. That's kind of the image that's coming to my mind with this process. Because I'm. If I'm being honest, I'm a little confused at, like, what this looks like in the earthly like, matter, because I can see Jesus purifying us. I'm struggling with the idea of a husband purifying his wife, I guess if that makes sense. Like, I'm not, like, it's not clicking with me what that looks like. So that in that image I'm thinking of. There's maybe more of a process for that. But if you guys have. Well, and the process, it would seem spiritually it takes place before the wedding takes place before the wedding ceremony. In Revelation, for example, like, it's after the wedding I would think it's a done deal. It's like the. Well, maybe we should go there. Maybe we should look at in Revelation. It's a Bible study. Let's see. That is a section that is easy, I think, to take a little bit out of context because it. It all comes right after the wives, submit to your husbands and everything. And so, I can totally hear some people using that as, like, see, it says wives need to obey everything the husband says. That's a very easy one to just pick out and completely take the wrong way for men, right? Like, see, the wife needs to submit, but that's not what it means at all. Because then it says, and husbands, you need to lay your lives down for your wife the way Christ did. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. In Revelation 19, verses 6-8, "Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, 'Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure'— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints" I suppose one is only clothed after they're clean. That's a good way to do it. You'd think that. Get that in order. Depends on how rushed you are in the morning. But yeah, it sounds like at that point the bride is ready. And so perhaps the purification takes place in preparation of it perhaps? Yeah. And I guess because you're asking about, like on an earth, from an earthly standpoint, what does that look like, and I guess as people that are preparing themselves for marriage. What does that look like? Guy number one in the story probably wasn't thinking too much about how I could be the best husband. And what does sacrifice look like in a marriage? Husband number two was probably more like prepared and saying, I know more what it means to love somebody. And then the response to that was, you saw the evidence of life versus death. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Who's guy number one and two? Oh, her friends. My friends. Oh, okay. It took me a second, too. You want me to name names or. Call them out. If that's you, leave your name in the comments. Identify yourself, please. What did they do? That's right. Well, I suppose since we're still talking a little bit about Ephesians also, because I imagine we might go away from that. And I had a few thoughts about Ephesians also. So, you've already read, you know, husbands love. Husbands loves your wives as Christ the Church gave himself for her and wives submit to your husbands. I'm going to finish that off, though, and I'll. I'll kind of reiterate what you said earlier, Chris. So, yeah, so, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband." And kind of like you were saying earlier, that's what stuck out to me too, is this whole Ephesians section about husbands and wives. It's all pointing towards Christ again. But then Paul's like, cool about it. He's like, but obviously, yeah, however, you know, love your wives and wives, you know, respect your husbands. But that's not what I'm talking about. But it seems like so many—I mean, I certainly included—I always thought that to be purely more about just a relationship aspect of husbands and wives. But to Paul, that was an afterthought. I mean, it was kind of like just like covering the grounds, like, yeah, I mean, so do those things. But this is what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah. And. And maybe to take it even further, Paul is saying, in that way, the two become one flesh. The two shall become one flesh. And then it also is saying, because we are members of his body. And so, we get this thought. A lot of the sermons make it sound like two different people. The husband and the wife. Husband and the wife. And there's two people. And you know, Paul is really saying it's really one. It's one. Yep. Because as he's saying in reference to a husband and a wife, he's saying that they're one and the same. Really. It's the same body. The two shall become one flesh. No one hates. No one hated. "No one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church," so that kind of puts away this thought like two separate completely, like almost opposing entities. Right. Right. Yeah. When you realize that it's the same entity. Right? Yep. Yep. Two are one. I mean, yeah, give me one divorce that you've heard of, where both parties aren't injured somehow. Right. Right? Yeah. You hurt one, you hurt both because both are one. Yeah. David Jeremiah on that, he says in his notes, says Paul concludes this portion of teaching with interpretation of Genesis 2:24, which reflects a mystery that is profound regarding the union of Christ in the church. This illustration goes beyond mere analogy. It is a statement of reality. Just as a man and wife become a new reality, one flesh, so the members of the church become part of a new reality, Christ's body. And so kind of mimicking what you just said, but yeah, we're talking about one flesh. Us in Christ is one. And that's massively powerful. A little bit more on that. So, with Ephesians. So, when I was reading through the Ephesians account, wives submit to your husband. Husbands love your wives. So, then I was thinking, okay, so if really what we're talking about here is husbands and wives as one, then we can kind of, the back and forth, the one on the opposite side is Christ in both examples. And so. And I know that sounds a little bit confusing, it's kind of confusing in my head. But. But. Stay tuned for. Stay tuned. Are you. Are you intrigued yet? Are you intrigued yet? Let's see if I can iron this out. Okay, so if husbands and wives in this passage, perhaps they should be viewed as one person. So, husbands and wives together as one is the believer. Okay, so some verbs from the believer to Christ to submit, to, love, to leave behind. And then Christ to the believer will be the believer will be sanctified, nourished, and cherished. And so, I think that that's probably the more accurate way, I suppose, to look at that Scripture is husbands and wives are the one and Christ is the other. And with those verbs, we are to submit, love, submit and love Christ and leave behind everything else to pursue Him. And what we'll receive in return is sanctification. And he'll nourish us. And he cherishes us. Yep. And so, yeah, the whole like, therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. Yeah. Leave everything from what you knew before you met Christ. That's no longer a part of the equation anymore. Leave everything behind and pursue Christ. Just as, I mean and then it goes back to, like, when Christ was collecting his disciples. And it's like, leave behind the other stuff. Like, follow me. And this is what it's saying again. Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff. Yeah. This whole thing about being one body, like a man and a woman become one body, it does go to that deeper reality, that profound mystery of us becoming one with Jesus. Because even as it was talking about how, you know, you love your own body and you love the other as your own body, it's kind of to that level of, like, well, God loves us as his own body, which is like, sort of we become one with Christ. Right. So, us as the body of Christ, we become integrated. Like, we become one with Christ. So, to the point that God loves us just as much as he loves his own Son. Like. Right. It's just. It's like. It just blows my mind. But, like. Yeah, just. Just that. Yeah. It's pretty, pretty amazing. It's huge, super powerful. Yeah. The Bible even says when He looks at us, He sees us, He sees His Son. Right. Yeah. Like, I can't imagine being put in the place of Christ in the sense of, like, God's perfect love extended to you and to all of us in the same way as His Son. Like, it's no different. It's just like. It's lifting us up beyond what, you know, you could imagine. Right. Yeah. And the fact that that verbiage and that talk goes all the way back to the second chapter of Genesis. Genesis 2:24. "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." I mean, so hearkening back to the beginning, I mean, that's like, it's just, it's beautiful how it's written, but also, it's not just because it's for how it looks' sake. It's because this is a current, this is a theme that's running through the Bible. Obviously, it's showing up at the very beginning. We're now kind of in the middle. And then obviously bridegroom is discussed in Revelation also. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's a theme through time. Right. And the Revelation is the completion of what was happening here. Right. Yeah. I love that Scripture interprets Scripture, and there's 64,000 references within Scripture, referencing Scripture. Wild. Yeah. Only God could do that. Yeah, that's true. Only God could do that. Yeah. People are like, "that book's just made up." It's like, there's too much, there's too much weirdness in this thing to be just a hoax. Yeah. I also love. Go ahead, go ahead. I also love that the sanctification process becomes the blood of Christ, right? And the Word, He is the Word. Yeah. So, he is his Word, his flesh, his blood is our sanctification today. Right. Yeah. You know, earlier when you mentioned Robyn, how, you know, it sounds a little weird in earthly terms, like, you know, like the husband, you know, purifies the wife with the Word. I also, I imagine, because it's like this, the circularity of, like, unconditional love where, like, the wife is also sanctifying the husband just as much. So, it's not necessarily that, like, oh, what, you know, pure, purity comes from the man or something. Like, obviously, it's like God. It comes from God. And, and so even marriage, like, belongs to God, and it's part of God's intention. So, that unconditional love, that's circular there, right, the wife purifies the husband in faith. And so, it's just this mutual reciprocal purification process in Christ. Right? And probably literally through the Word, I mean, speaking the Word over each other, speaking life over each other, the power of death and life is truly in the tongue. And when you're living in the Word and you're living through the Word, you're praying over each other, you're in the Word together. You're having that Bible study. You're living life out as the hands and feet of Jesus. You're sanctified through that process. Right. And there's a kind of an illustration where there's a triangle and you have the husband and the wife at the base of the triangle and God at the top. And the closer the couple go towards God, the closer they'll get to each other. And so, that's how it's, that's how it's all played out. Yeah. You get closer to God. You get closer to each other. Yeah. Yeah. And always putting God first, how your relationship grows. Yep, absolutely. That trifold cord is not easily broken. That's right. How would you feel about marrying someone who. Who doesn't love God more than he loves you? Not great. Deal breaker. Deal breaker. That'd be weird. One Scripture that sort of backs up kind of what you're saying, Ro. There is in 1 Corinthians, chapter 7, beginning in verse 14, "For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." So, it's kind of that kind of circular thing. It can go either direction kind of a thing. In the marriage on earth, kind of is reflective in that Scripture there, it seems, so. Yeah. In cases where one may not believe. So, very interesting there. Yeah. Yeah, the. Speaking of the, back to the disciples of John, there's another account in Matthew, chapter 9, starting in verse 14, when it says, "Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, 'Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?' And Jesus said to them, 'Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.'” So, here's another instance where disciples of John are talking to Jesus with a question, basically, and the response has to do with a bridegroom. It happens again. And then more revelation basically is made to, there's what's happening and then there's what's actually happening. Right. And so, Jesus is revealing the real issue here that is happening, and that is that he is with them now and he will not be with them later, and then he will come again. Is kind of what he's alluding to. Right. Yeah, I think. Well, I think kind of what comes to my mind just with that also is a little bit, not quite on point with what you're talking about, exactly. But it's revelation always seems to come with questioning. Right? So, there's a question, then there's revelation, at least in these instances. And I think it's kind of cool that it's kind of a reminder, I think, like keep asking questions. Have, you know, try to approach it with humility and with the right heart. But it's a great reminder that with questions can come revelation. So, don't stop asking God, don't stop asking Jesus for, you know, just your curiosities and your questions. Don't feel like that he doesn't care or that he doesn't, he's got better things to do. He, you might be surprised at what he might actually reveal to you in your questioning. Which is interesting because in Jewish culture today, it's very encouraged to ask God questions. Things that you and I would think, "I can't ask God that," you know, because in our culture it's not looked, doesn't look good to ask God, like, why would you do that? Why would you, why would you ask that of me? And it's interesting in that Scripture in Matthew 5:19 is that's when Jesus kind of introduced himself as the bridegroom for the first time and kind of also introduced himself as the Son of God, as God himself. That's powerful. Yeah. Speaking of marriage as God relates to his people in Hosea chapter 2, starting in verse 16. “'And in that day, declares the Lord, you will call me "My Husband," and no longer will you call me "My Baal." For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the Lord.'" So, of all the things that, you know, might come to mind of having a husband in that kind of arrangement, "What will he make me do?" Makes me lie down in safety. What's he gonna make me do? Make my dinner. The thought of, this domineering, any hesitancy of to what that looks like in a perfect situation, the things that he will do, it's, the "'war from the land'" will be gone, you know, speaking of a nation of a people group. Yeah. These are the things that kind of are in exchange for obedience in that relationship with God. It's good things that are. Right. You know what I'm gonna, I'm gonna make you be safe. I'm gonna make you. Right. You're gonna like it. Yeah. You might, you're gonna love it. Well, yeah, that's a little bit of the huge caution like today. I don't know, maybe it's just more Western where there's an attack on marriage where it's like people are growing more and more disenfranchised with getting married and being married. And it's, that's like a, that's a ploy of the enemy because it's like how many times have we been just talking about, just in the past, like whatever half hour, about how many times marriage is used as a relationship of Christ and his people. And if we can get to the point where we hate marriage or we're so disillusioned by the prospect of it, it's like, well, this is a huge part of the verbiage in the Bible talking about how important it is. And it's. I, it's just obviously, you destroy union, you destroy marriages, you destroy family. That's, you know, Satan 101. And so, I don't know, it's interesting that there's such a disenfranchisement with marriage and there's so much, so much verbiage about marriage just in like what we're talking about here today. Yeah. And the, the alternative, I suppose, is quite a step down. Jesus said at some point, and to paraphrase perhaps is, "No longer do I call you servants," Right. I'll call you friends. Like to not embrace what's on the table, the much better offer of covenant marriage with God would be, well, servant? Back to servant, right. Yeah. Be a servant instead? You know, you are being invited to become one with the Lord. And it really is beneficial to study what exactly all that means and how it's a good thing. And the alternative isn't, you know, it may also be good, but it's like next level. Right. It's not great. It's trading great for good. Yeah. Yeah, that was actually one thing that kept coming to mind when I was in the study is, like, there, like, we read especially talked about going back to. All the way back to Genesis and God calling this good. And I think sometimes if we can look at, like, what the enemy is attacking the most, we can see actually, like, God's original intention and how good that thing is. And so, if the enemy is going through such great lengths to keep godly men and godly women from uniting together to, like, further his kingdom purposes, can you imagine how powerful, like, not just one couple, but many couples could be at, like, disarming the enemy and getting and, like, actually bringing people to the Lord is, like, crazy to think about. Like, I think that we, like, we're reading these Scriptures and thinking that obviously, because this is an image of Christ's love for his church, but I think that just marriage in general, God loves it, and he's very passionate about it. And I think that the enemy is going through huge stakes, like, at this point. Like, I feel like it's almost like a generational thing that we're currently living in where people are waiting way longer to get married than they ever have. And there's also a lot more, I think, like, spiritual battles surrounding people getting together. That is just kind of crazy to really think about. And if we really tap into that and, like, expose the enemy for what he's doing, I don't know, I just think it's a really different world that we could be living in. And. Yeah. So. And as you were saying, the culture has changed and shifted marriage. And I see the culture as seeing marriage as kind of that honeymoon phase, right? As soon as that's over and that person is no longer perfect, out with the old, in with the new. Right. Yep. There's a union going on there with marriage where there's, like, a belonging aspect of it. And, you know, like, Jesus claiming us as his own. I mean, he's literally claiming us to have a, like, an exclusive, right, relationship with him. And so, it is exclusive. And it. Yeah, it means that we can't be half, you know, we can't be lukewarm. And it's like that as he pursues us, because I know he pursues us for greater and greater, right, like, affection or intimacy. And, like, in a spiritual sense, in a spiritual way, we're growing, like, we're all under this process of, like, deepening into our faith and, like, in loving others or being more, you know, selfless. All these different things. And so, as we deepen, like he's pursuing us, we're also kind of responding with this pursuing him back. And so, there's this like belonging in that union, like, but we're also becoming one. And I think that's such a, like, sacred thing that I think a lot of us have become a little, like, bitter about. Like, when marriages take too long to, even for people to get married, there can be like, just anger, resentment, or when people do get married and it fails or whatever, a lot of people can go, well, you know, "Well, what makes you think marriage is so special?" And I think that's something to protect as believers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another verse out of the Old Testament in which God mentions marriage in terms of his relationship with his people. Isaiah 62 verses 4 and 5, "You shall no more be termed Forsaken, and your land shall no more be termed Desolate, but you shall be called My Delight Is in Her, and your land Married; for the Lord delights in you, and your land shall be married. For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you." So, there's a contrast there between marriage and forsaken, marriage and desolate, and then my delight is in her. These are all terms that are used to describe God's relationship with his people there, as continues to be revealed in Jesus initially in this part in John chapter 3, there. And so why is that, you know, important to understand all these concepts? It's like, what, John's disciples were, they seemed very content with perhaps the baptism in the water. I mean, hey, they were, after all, disciples of John the Baptist. It's kind of their jam. It's in the name. It's kind of their thing, right? And yet Hebrews in chapter 6, beginning in verse 1, it actually says, "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits." It seems perhaps, yes, it's very foundational. And yet, Jesus is, the person of Jesus, like the next thing beyond that, you know. So, the disciples of John, maybe they didn't even, perhaps recognize, even at John the Baptist's own testimony about him, when he said he, that John the Baptist must decrease and Jesus must increase, they were still kind of like, you know, who's this doing the baptism? Right. And later, just maybe overseeing the baptism. Yeah. Not personally, perhaps, as it says later. We didn't read that part today, but. Well, yeah, I mean, even in. In, you know, verse 28, you know, John chapter 3:28, John says to his disciples, "'You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, "I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him." The one who has,'" Yeah. So, it's like. Like, this is the guy. Like, I've already said this to you, which is kind of also what Jesus kept on talking to his disciples. Like, I keep on telling you that I'm going to die, but I'm going to resurrect. This is. It's an interesting thing where John's disciples, like, he had to remind them what he's already told him. Right. Right. Yeah. So that the repentance, the baptism in water, that's a foundational thing, that's a starting point. And then, you know, beyond that, God's looking for fruit in the life. Right? Becoming the image of Christ. To focus only on the repentance only, it's like, okay, great, we've come up with things that we don't want to do anymore, right? Right. And that's important. That's foundational. Yeah. We are turning away from the sin. And it's important not to stay at that point only, right? There's, like it says in Hebrews, there's things beyond the foundation that God is looking for, and. What do you face after you've turned? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so let us grow and mature, as it says in Hebrews. Let's "go on to maturity," right? And that's really what Jesus kind of was, is that next step that hopefully John's disciples came to understand and listened to John the Baptist. Right. As he was pointing to Jesus the whole time, that they, you know, hopefully their questions were honest questions and that they were listening to the answer. Yeah. And that they didn't get kind of territorial in their ministry that was all well and good at that time and be open to the fullness of what God really wanted for them. Right? Yep. Any closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of bridegroom? I mean, yeah, I think for me it's how John used the image of marriage to point his followers towards Jesus. And I just love the fact that this is how, like, the beginning point of, I mean, the wedding at Cana was probably the first of the first, and I think that the author of John kind of recognized that, and I think that he probably, it seems like he might have put that, like, so close to each other because, like, this is the foreshadowing of a foreshadowing of a foreshadowing, which is the wedding. And then there's the conversation when John the Baptist is baptizing, and then it goes towards Jesus. So, I just love the fact that—I think you mentioned earlier, Mandy—that the humility of John, like, he knew that his ministry was going to eventually stop and he wasn't too proud to keep it going once he knew that his time was done. He knew his place, he knew his lane, and he said, nope, go after him now. This is the one. This is why I was here. I came here to not be here, which is kind of another foreshadowing of Jesus, which is kind of interesting. I came to die. My ministry started so it could stop, so that this could be the new thing. So, I guess that's kind of what comes to my mind. Yeah. Thinking about how we established in a previous podcast about John the Baptist, and he was kind of the end of the Old Testament, and his ministry kind of wrapped all of that up and allowed Jesus to start the New Testament. And I wonder if his disciples weren't just kind of so stuck in this, in that place, right? Where they were also part of wrapping up the Old Testament and kind of stuck in this idea of the revelations that Jesus would bring to the table over three years, you know, were so huge, you know, that they only had so much context to go on at that time. And I think that even today we can look at Scripture and think that we have all of the information, but we really don't. That revelation of Jesus will continue into eternity. And kind of what you were saying, that relationship we have with God, the Word says that God will reveal himself to us throughout eternity. All the different facets of who God is, and that marriage covenant will be an eternal one, an everlasting one. I really like this whole image of, like, our, at our foundation, that we are like Christ and that we're designed to, like, be a gift and, well, and to receive first of all the gift from God, which is Christ. And so, this idea that we are designed for love and, like, you know, without love, like, we're basically nothing, right? And so just to give and receive love really feels like it's at the core of our humanity and how God designed us and with that, it just reminds me of this, like, giving and receiving of love that happens in, in marriage, but also with God and how this giving and receiving of love, it's a gift. It's a gift giving. So, like, even like as the husband is a gift to the wife, the wife's a gift to the husband, which is really the same with like God's perfect gift to us, which is the Lord, and then, you know, even making us a gift back. So, it just kind of blows my mind that we become a gift even back to Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if. And this isn't really going to put like a nice little bow on it, because it's just a thought that came into my head, but with similarly that, when Jesus spoke in parables of his day, it was, he was speaking in parables that would have been relevant to the people of that time. So, we have to study them out because we don't necessarily live the same kind of lifestyle. And I'm like, marriage existed at this time and there were certain cultural norms and expectations that surrounded marriage at that time. And I'm wondering if there's like, if this was a context that was super applicable to them because they were living and walking this out regularly, like where now we have our own cultural standards for marriage, unfortunately, that are just different. And I'm wondering if back then there was like, if like John the Baptist kind of talking this way would have like immediately clicked in their mind and brought that kind of understanding. So. Sure. That's really, I don't know if that's like a closing thought, but just like that's kind of now like more that I would like to study out, I guess. So. Sounds more like an opening thought. There we go. Flip that thing and reverse it, right? Nah. Well, great discussion, everybody. Thanks for joining us again for The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Please like and subscribe if you're so inclined. Thank you for joining us. Take care, everybody. Hasta la vista. Can I add one? I just want to say there's a gentleman who's a dear friend of mine named John who's one of our biggest listeners, listen to all of our podcasts and we just haven't seen him in a while. And I just want to give a shout out that we love you, John, and we miss you. Yeah. Excellent. Alright. Right on. Right on. Thank you, John. All right. Have a good day everybody. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. The ESV text may not be quoted in any publication made available to the public by a Creative Commons license. The ESV may not be translated in whole or in part into any other language.