Episode Transcript
They say it takes a village to raise a child. Growing up, we had Value Village, a local thrift store that was very much a part of my childhood.
In the late '80s, I remember following my mom through the aisles of this hand-me-down mecca in her always successful effort to make ends meet. But back then, a trip to the thrift store wasn't just a bargain-focused errand. It was an adventure, and I loved it. I never knew what or who I'd find once I set foot on those dusty terrazzo tile floors. An ever-revolving door of games, toys, and transients, the experience was always mixed, and every experience started the same, with my mom telling me to stay close. And one day, at the young age of four, I learned why.
The trip started like any other, with my mom inspecting endless lines of clothing one by one. Ah, the sound of wire hangers sliding across metal rails still takes me back.
And like any other trip, the sweet siren song of used games and toys, they called to me. My resistance was usually strong, but this day was different. The soft come-hither tones of gently used board games and Glo Worms broke through my defenses and pulled me away from my mother's watchful eye.
In that moment, I traded my following for wandering. And in my wandering, I found myself lost. Clothed and afraid. Despite my Hansel-inspired popcorn trail, instead of backtracking, my survival instinct led me between the coats and behind the wardrobe. A world unto its own, it was my own personal ghetto Narnia. But I soon realized that even in ghetto Narnia, getting lost was a matter of survival.
Because in ghetto Narnia, floor popcorn was no Turkish delight and Transient Tom was no Mr. Tumnus.
As kids, we follow. We don't have much of a choice, really. The alternative is getting lost, and sometimes in unfamiliar lands. Following is not a matter of convenience, it's a matter of survival.
And growing up, survival was why we played, or trained, as I like to think of it. You remember. Every so often we traded in our foursquare ball and sidewalk chalk for a higher level of recreation: circuit training. And each circuit had its own objective and survival application.
Simon Says—it honed our listening and attention skills to better navigate interrogations conducted by our parents. Tag enhanced our stamina and endurance to aid in our getaways when foul balls met bedroom windows. And Red Rover sharpened our observation and judgment skills to better assess the strength, girth and mass of potential playground bullies.
But the circuit that proved most useful, the one that helped to ensure that no man was left behind enemy lines, or inside racks of used coats, was Follow the Leader.
Follow the Leader was always straightforward. Once you heard the name, you pretty much got it. And while everyone outwardly liked the leaders with clean shoes and minor cases of algophobia, most secretly waited for that rebel, that fourth grade John Bender, to take that leadership position.
Because we knew that whatever inner GPS guided his steps, it wasn't factory set.
And we were all too eager to see and follow the dangerous path that that chain-smoking, hot-tempered nine-year-old chose.
Because we all knew that if we could keep up with him, we could keep up with any fast-paced, bargain-hunting mother.
Of all of our childhood games, Follow the Leader remains the most relevant. For practical reasons, Red Light, Green Light comes in a close second. Because as adults, we also follow.
We don't have much of a choice, really. The alternative is getting lost, and it remains a matter of survival in unfamiliar lands. J. R. R. Tolkien once wrote, not all those who wander are lost. True, but I've grown to learn that all who are lost tend to wander. And wandering of this variety is typically off path. So, the question is, whose lead are we following? And perhaps more important, why does it matter?
Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines leader as something that ranks first.
So that which we follow is by definition, that person or thing that is first in our lives, that which we value most.
As psychologist Jordan Peterson writes, you can't have a value structure without hierarchy. They're the same thing, because a value structure means one thing takes precedence over another.
So, where there's value, there's hierarchy. It's interesting, then, that God warns numerous times throughout scripture to worship no other God but him, almost as if he knew that we as humans have an instinct, a need even, to place something at that highest place of the hierarchy. Philosopher and Catholic writer Blaise Pascal once wrote, what else does this craving and this helplessness proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace.
This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object. In other words, by God himself.
Or, as the band Plum put it, there's a God shaped hole in all of us.
Christ calling his disciples to follow was much more than a simple request. It was a call to worship, a call to put Christ first, the one atop the hierarchy. To one individual, he urged, let the dead bury the dead. To another, give everything to the poor, and follow me. In both instances, Jesus not only called, but challenged that which was held sacred, that which ranked first.
Ralph Waldo Emerson is attributed as saying, a person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will come out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful of what we worship, for what we are worshipping, we are becoming.
Two thousand plus years later, the call and caution remain the same: who will you follow?
The question has never been "if" something occupies that highest place, the question is, "what?"
Because there are no empty spaces in the hierarchy and value always rises to the top.
We're all led by something, and our decision in who or what to follow is anything but a game.
Welcome to the Cozy Justice Podcast.
Oh wait, that's a different one.
Robyn et al.
With "Dr." Robyn.
Dr. Robyn et al.
Welcome to another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists draw from their experiences in coaching, education, management, ministry, psychology and other backgrounds in order to seek hope and timeless biblical truths amidst the challenges and uncertainties of today's austere times.
I'm joined once again with my brother, Dr. Jon. Good afternoon.
Good afternoon. How you doing?
Very well, thank you. Today, the other et als are once again Mandy, Rogelio, and Robyn. Welcome everybody.
I'm happy to be here.
Today we're looking at the word "follow" and our scripture of the day is in the book of John, looking in chapter 1, verses 43-45, out of the ESV.
"The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, 'Follow me.' Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, 'We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'”
Dr. Jon, you had a blog, a vlog about the word "follow." So top line thoughts on your blog?
Yeah, there's a, there's a quote. It's unknown who said it, but it's something to the effect of be careful about following the masses because sometimes the "m" is silent. And so, I think that it's important that we understand that in life we're going to be following somebody or something. Something's going to be guiding us and leading us. And we have to ask ourselves, what is the thing that's guiding or leading us? And that thing is typically at the top of what we would call our hierarchy, the thing of most importance. So just top line thought is we're all being led by something, so it's important to know who or what that is.
Okay. All right, Mandy.
I'm thinking in these "austere times."
Get it.
I think the school of thought being pushed, the narrative is to be your own god and follow your own lead. Kind of, "You do you, boo" is kind of the saying that you hear a lot. And I think that it's a very dangerous precedent to set because you're going to fail yourself at every turn. And the people around you that you would put on a pedestal who are in sports, who are in movies, whatever, who you might follow, are going to fail you. And I am just really grateful to have Jesus in my life and have the predictable and the safety and the everything that Jesus brings to the table. There's so much joy in following a God who knows my every step, who has ordained it, and already knows what tomorrow brings.
Yeah. And I echo that even from experience. I think I've tried, like, following my own thoughts, my own ways, and I think sometimes I think in God's goodness, I think he's allowed me to fall on my face, but I think just that, wanting to follow our own agenda and following my own thoughts, even. I think I'm more and more aware, I think, in the pursuit of the goodness of the Lord. Like, I'm trying to learn to follow, follow what he puts in my heart and try to make my mind and my thoughts follow, you know, his light, and sort of, like, correcting me or finding my way by following my heart, not my mind. And I think that's an ongoing challenge for myself.
I once watched this movie, and there was this really great line. I don't remember the movie. I don't want to say the name of it in case I'm wrong, but it was a dancing movie. And one of the lines was, I know this is also why I'm not going to say it, because you're going to make fun of me.
We're going to cut this out.
No. The line was that it takes just as much strength to follow as it does to lead. And that has always stuck out in my mind when I think of this, like, well, a lot of things, but especially this idea of following sometimes gets a bad rap because it suggests that you're not a leader in your own right. But the reality is that it is a decision to follow, and it does take as much strength, I think, to follow, especially, like, Jesus, where he knows everything and I know very little. And I think of. I mean, just over the past, however, many years that I've known the Lord, there is a strength of character that I think has been developed in me because of having to submit to someone else, which is great. So that's my first thought. And wasn't as bad as you thought it was gonna be, huh?
It's not bad.
Okay.
It's not bad. That's a good line.
Yeah, it was good, right? A little cheesy, but it's not untrue. So, take that, Jon.
So, yeah, there's this thought that who you follow, you become. So, who you imitate, who you spend time with, you're going to become more like that person. And I would think in therapy, if anybody who's counseling adolescents, one topic that would come up would be, well, what crowd are you running with? Who are you following? Who are you becoming like? Perhaps you shouldn't follow those people. Perhaps you shouldn't follow that crowd because you're going to end up like that crowd.
Sooner or later, the distinction between the follower and the crowd becomes less and less, and the follower becomes basically part of the crowd. It's no longer like someone separate from the crowd. So how often does that come up? For example, in guidance and mentoring and counseling people to tell them, be careful who you're following, because you got to be very mindful of that. You're going to become who you're following.
Yeah. I mean, regularly. And sometimes it's the same over and over and over again, like from week to week.
Yeah. I forget what the exact kind of understanding or the truth is, but it's something like, show me your five closest friends, and I'll show you who you'll be in six months to a year. That's exactly like the path that the people that you hang around with, the path that you go down. So, it comes up regularly and frequently. Anybody who's in school, whether it's private or public, it's still a struggle for young people to know, "who I should be following." That's like a pretty, pretty normal junior high, high school. I mean, grade school struggle because everybody wants to fit in, and it's almost like everybody's following each other. So, it's like a, it's just like a snake eating his tail. It's, it's so putting Christ at the top of the one, like the one that we are to be following, that'll, that'll help us from eating our own tail.
Yum.
You don't want that. You don't want that.
Just so we're clear.
That's a bad thing, right?
That's a bad thing.
Well, if you have a tail, that's probably a bad thing to begin with.
Probably see a doctor.
Well, you mentioned this like a hierarchy. And certainly, it's ideal to put Jesus at the top. And then, like Paul says in 1 Corinthians, chapter 11, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."
It's possible to have mentors in the, in the hierarchy, basically, people who will lead you the right way. It's an important thing to, to make sure to be mindful of who's in that group there.
Yeah, yeah. Whose authority we come under and we decide and willingly come under. That's a really important decision to make.
And even, you know, we use the word follow a lot on social media. For example, like, who are you following on social media? It doesn't take, like, a personal relationship with somebody to actually become imitators of them and to become like them over time.
So, this would obviously apply not just to the junior high and high school, adolescents, but anybody who's being influenced by others, that could have a big impact on who they're actually becoming. And the strange thing, like, with social media and even entertainment, people can change over time. And their friends, the people who actually are physically nearby them, they can be like, "you're changing."
Right.
Well, they're not hanging out with anybody different. They're not. I know your circle of friends, but there could be, like, just online only, can be followers of somebody or some group, and that person can even change over time, for good or for bad. It could be either way. So, there's another layer there, I think, of who we can follow today, given the technology that we have and how far communication can extend in today's world.
Right. Yeah.
It's interesting because in church today, we were talking about social media being such a dark place that has actually been intentionally used to draw people away from Jesus, to paint him as this really bad guy that you don't want nothing to do with, to keep people who are younger, who are being influenced in order. All of us are influenced at some point from having a relationship with him.
Yeah.
The idea of following is really tricky, in a sense.
I remember in AA meetings, one of the main concepts there is kind of like, we weren't powerful enough to overcome this disease. So it's like putting your trust in God as we understood him. At least that's the language in AA. And what's interesting to me about that is this idea of, like, following God. It's hard when we're talking about people leading people, because there's always going to be some kind of confusion about, well, why should I follow this guy? Why should I follow that guy who has a million posts or even that, like, mega pastor, why should I follow that guy? It's like everybody's just in this, like, I'm just going to follow whatever I think is true kind of mode. And it's tricky because it's like, who are we really following? As you said, we end up following somebody or something. And whether I know it or not, I know, I know that's true. I've heard the saying that, like, the human heart is like an idol making factory. And I know that I followed, you know, things that I just, you know, whatever. I just followed something I wanted to follow without really knowing, is this good? Is this bad? Is this good for me? Or whatever. But I think the idea of following it can be a little bit tricky in that it's not like this perfectly clear-cut path. It's like, a lot of it is discerning and, like, you know, test it by its fruit. Like, you will know.
It's like, you will know by its fruit whether something's good or not. You know, it's like, taste and see the goodness of God. And sometimes it takes eating rotten fruit to be like, "Oh, I was following the wrong thing."
Sure. Yeah. And to know, like, to know the source, like, to know what is truth and what isn't. And that's why we all need to do our own due diligence to understand what the Bible says, right? Because we need to understand what truth is. So we can then butt that up against lies or, you know, untruths. And so, yeah, doing our work that we need to be doing, and then we can look at someone else's leadership and say, okay, this lines up with what I know. And then, yeah, it's. There's some trust involved. Sure. Absolutely. But, yeah, the fruit is a huge part of it. You'll know them by. Yeah. How they're operating their own lives, you know, how they respond in frustrating situations. Yeah.
Wasn't that like Paul? Was it Paul who said, follow me as I follow Christ?
So, did you just say that?
I just—
Read that.
Not too long ago. Yeah, but a little time's elapsed.
Anyways, anyways, when he said that, like, I think it's really great that because there's this idea—we want to follow Jesus, but, like, how do we do that? And then having people in our lives who have gone before us, and you're talking about, like, good fruit. And I think that's a brilliant thing. And one thing that you can look at is following people who are living a certain life that you would also like to live. And that would be true of, like, any area of your life. So not just following Jesus, but, like, if you were a business person and you wanted to know how to grow your business, you would look at someone who had a successful business. Like, if you were married and you wanted to have a fruitful, like, thriving marriage, you wouldn't look at someone who has a terrible marriage. You would look at someone who is living the life that you want to live and follow that, like, follow what they do. So, like, God has given us a very, I think, practical way of learning how to follow him into, like, the fruitful life that we want to live.
Yeah.
Just like Paul said.
Tell me about it.
Who was that tattoo artist that recently came to Christ?
Kat Von D.
Okay. Yeah, I think, and I think it was something along these lines. I heard an interview, and she just saw the difference, the differences in friends who were believers and who weren't. But it was enough for her to say, I can just see the difference, and this is enough for me to look more into what my Christian friends are all about. Yeah.
That's really incredible.
Yeah.
Sorry, Kat, if I got that wrong.
But, yeah, well, I'm sure she's listening.
I'm sure she is.
Next week on The Defined Podcast. Someday.
Well, yeah, there's. You don't have to see, necessarily, the end of the journey of people to know basically the path that they're headed.
You can see kind of mile markers along the way, like, wow, this person's getting more and more destructive or more and more chaotic, or, you know, if I keep following this person, this path, I can guess that it's going to go a direction that I don't like.
And Jesus, certainly, as he calls us, to follow him, the way to do that is leaving behind, as kind of you mentioned in the blog, there. There are things that need to be left behind.
Like in the case, like Jesus said, you have to let the dead bury their own dead. Leave your love of money behind, basically find your entire life, really, in him.
Leave your entire life behind, in a sense, so that your entire life following him is only in him.
And there could be little tests along the way.
You know, a lot of times we think that, or it's easy to think, I should say, that there are sins or weights or temptations that can kind of keep us from following God. But there's also, for example, promises that could potentially keep us from following God, because, like with Abraham, he was promised a son and a nation to come from him. And then God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac on the altar. And God, Abraham could have said, well, I'm promised.
I'm gonna hold to this promise. I'm gonna hold it real. You said, I have this promise. I'm gonna hang on to.
Yeah.
As if that. That could be, like, a way out of obedience, you know?
But he was trusting God enough to let it go.
He believed that God could still be honoring his promise by raising Isaac from the dead if it came to that. And Abraham being already a very old man, he must have reasoned within himself that could even happen after he dies. You know, even after he dies of old age, God still has the ability to raise up Isaac from the dead and keep his promise. And, of course, the account in Genesis says that God told him not to sacrifice his son, that God was testing him to see, do you—you're gonna trust a promise? Hold on to that really tightly? Or trust God?
Which one is it going to be? And Abraham came through the test.
Right. Chose wisely.
I've heard it put three times this way in the last week. Do—who do you love more, the promise or the promise keeper? I think that's where we get to, right? Is we get so hyper focused on what the promise is that we forget the promise keeper.
Right.
It's a really good point.
Yeah. And, like, similarly, it's like the miracle or the miracle maker, right? I mean, it's like, there's, so many times good things can take our focus and our attention, and it's like, as soon as we lose sight of Jesus, then it's like we're off. We're off course.
Something about not following Jesus, I think especially, like, in a time as a teenager when I wasn't going to church, I was like, I don't know if I believe anything. Who cares? And I just remember this thing of, like, I realized, like, even just saying, like, you know, I can follow my own, my own thoughts or my own ways. Like, there was something about that that was like, wait, that kind of. That would mean that I'm basically, like, making myself god. Because there's something about, like, if I say I don't believe in God, like, there is no God. That kind of makes me the highest consciousness. And if I'm the highest consciousness, that is to say that I'm god.
Right.
So even just the idea is just. It's just like, kind of delirious. To be honest. For me to deny that I'm following anything and I'm the only one worth following.
Yeah.
It's kind of a joke, to be fair.
Yeah. And that's, I think, where a lot of people are caught up, it is even unintentionally don't realize that they're making themselves god. Some believe, I mean, some say, yes, I am my own god, and they're fully content to go down that path. But unintentionally, there's plenty of people that unknowingly, they're making themselves god. And the way that you laid that out, I think that was great, because that is what's happening. If God's not there, something else is, and typically, it's us.
Yeah.
And one last quick thing about that is the idea of, like, us being led to something, it's very real and tangible. Like, it's not just like a spiritual concept. Like, if you think about it, we're all going somewhere. I mean, over time, there's a process, and we're going to end up at a certain destination. Like, we're changing and we're moving to something. So the idea that we're being led and even just leading down a path, I think that's, like, so real. I don't know anyone who can say, like, oh, there's no such thing as needing to follow something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting where scripture tells us that even though people will be their own god, God will still lead them in the direction he wants them to go and use them in the way he wants to use them. For example, Pharaoh said, he will not let the people go. Will not let the people go. Will not let the people go. But God still led him to that place where he eventually let the people go. And, you know, you don't get out of God's will, even if you don't think you follow him. I think that unintentionally we all do. To whatever degree that looks like, while we still have free will, we still end up doing the purposes of God.
Yeah, that's a good point.
God gives us, it indicates in scripture, he gives us the option of which side to choose. Choose the side of life or the side of death. But either way, he'll use that decision for his purposes, right?
Even if people are deciding to be, to follow something that isn't of God, God's plan to redeem others is still at top priority on his part. He still is wanting to save people. So, by many different mysterious means.
Yeah. Which is kind of comforting for those of us who do want to follow Jesus. And we're just like, sometimes mess up.
I'm not actually as powerful enough to totally mess up the will of God as I think I am. I'm genuinely, authentically pursuing Jesus and want to do what he wants me to do.
I've heard David Jeremiah say this more than once now, saying that being a Christian is falling down and getting up all the way to heaven.
And so, it's like, yep.
Failing forward.
And so, it's not to like, to just like, "Oh, whatever. I'm like, I'm always going to sin. So, I'm always just going to be trapped in sin forever." It's like, no, we can actually get to the point where we are sinning less and less and less and less. And that's always kind of an interesting conversation, too.
Yeah.
How little can you sin?
I mean, that's. I mean, it's a kind of a funny question, but kind of a serious one, too. If the new believer, you know, would be sinning a lot, the new believer or the old believer would be sitting less. So anyways, spectrum. But. But, yeah, it's falling down and getting up all the way to heaven.
I like that.
Running out of—tank's running a little empty.
Sun's getting real low.
Real low. Running on fumes.
So, explain to me, how sometimes the "m" is silent?
Oh, I'll tell you.
So, if you're following the masses, and the "m" is silent, don't do that.
Does your mom know you said that?
We have it on recording.
Mama's not here right now.
I was thinking, do you guys have any, like, personal experiences that you can think of where the Lord has asked, like, to follow him in a certain area, and you found it difficult to do so?
Like, that story of Abraham in the Bible with Isaac. Like, are there any personal experiences that God has directed you to where there's been like, "no, I don't actually want to follow you and do that because that sounds painful," or.
I think I find myself trying to guess what the next step after the step God wants me to do is. So, for example, like, if I was Abraham and put myself in that situation, and if God told me to sacrifice Isaac, like, my tendency would be to try to guess. Like, well, he's gonna say not to do it later, so I guess I don't really have to do it because step one is obey him and sacrifice Isaac. Step two is going to be, don't do it. So might as well not do it, right?
I have a tendency to try to guess what is coming down the road.
And like, for example, I think it was the prophet Isaiah was told to tell King Hezekiah you're gonna. You're gonna die. Get your house in order.
And then the guy, the king, repented. And then Isaiah had to go back and say, okay, you're not gonna die. You got 15 years. Like, well, if I would have known ahead of time, I probably wouldn't have told him the first. Now I look like I didn't know what I was talking about the first time. I gotta go tell him. It's not gonna happen. Anyway, my tendency is to try, to try to second guess. Like, well, but that, that doesn't mean, like, that's obedient. It's not obedient to try to jump three steps ahead. You gotta take it each step at a time. Like, what does God ask me to do right now? And what does he ask, you know, and then do that thing or wait till further instruction. That's just a general example, but, yeah, that's kind of the thought.
Yeah. Looking back on my life, it seems as though perhaps I probably should have been hearing more closely because the things close suddenly and abruptly, like the things that I stopped doing. Like, for example, when I was doing an internship in California, whether or not, you know, that was the right move to go to California, or I was supposed to stay in Washington and do internship and all that. Day three, the guy that I was learning from meets me in the parking lot, and says, this isn't going to work out. And there are some reasons for that because I called him out. He was doing his thing wrong.
His thing?
Yeah, he was. He was. It was testing and assessments and he, yeah. And so, he just didn't, he didn't like being called out, that I saw him doing it wrong. So, he met me in the parking lot, said, you know, this isn't gonna work out. I don't know. Just, like, different things that maybe I should have been doing things differently. And then, but God's, like, no, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna usher you into this new season, this new area.
Yeah. So, I don't know if I, like, willingly wasn't listening, necessarily. But it's interesting when a few times things have closed suddenly to where I have to make an adjustment quickly.
Mm hmm.
Like when the building burned down.
There was that. Yep.
You burned down a building?
I didn't burn down a building. No, but a building burned down.
Like how I did that?
The building in which he would go to suddenly was no longer available because it burned down.
That's right. Yeah, yeah. In the, the clinic that I worked at for a number of years. All of a sudden, right before Christmas, get a call, we're closing shop.
Yeah. So, a few things.
And here we are today because of it.
Yeah.
You know, it very well could be.
Yep.
It very well could be.
Yeah.
Well, any closing thoughts as we wrap up this episode of The Defined Podcast talking about the word "follow," Dr. Jon?
Yeah, I guess I'll just go back to kind of what I was saying before. Like, there's something. Something's going to be at the top of the hierarchy. Something, we will be worshiping something. And in the Old Testament, as God said, worship, have no other gods but me. It is like a signal that there will be something that will be a god to us. And God's like, look, be sure that I'm the one that you're worshiping, because something will get to that spot if it's not me. So be very mindful about what it is that perhaps you're worshiping if it's not me, you're being taken down a path that will lead to destruction. And so, yeah, it's being mindful of what's at the top of the hierarchy for me, yeah.
Yeah. I think I go back to that idea that there's that God shape hole in each of us because we were created to follow Jesus. He calls us sheep a lot because sheep follow the shepherd. And going back to what you said earlier, you will follow somebody. And the Bible is very clear about false prophets are going to be coming in these days, and having the word in you so that you can test them by their fruit, because it's going to be so easy for people to get led astray. It's going to be so easy for someone charismatic to come along and say, this is the way, and people are going to naturally gravitate towards that charismatic. But when you know the Word of God and you have it in your heart, you can test them by the Word and their fruit, and you can avoid a lot of heartache and pain in that situation.
I like how you said earlier, Mandy, how, like, sometimes even just following the wrong path, it doesn't stop God's will from getting done. And, I mean, the reason I like that is because I think we should all be trying to follow Jesus, like, at every waking second. But also, aside from, like, trying to be accountable, just, a having the reassurance that, like, yes, God's will gets done because of Jesus. But also, it's like even if we, if somebody doesn't cooperate or doesn't try to, like, follow, you know, what the Spirit is leading them to, the Holy Spirit. It's like, you can be an example of how not to live your life. You can be an example of, like, what happens when things go wrong, and you can fail and all this stuff. And God might still be able to use that weakness or that damage or whatever, like, for some other benefit, but it's still like, you might have to pay the price of, like, following rotten fruit. Right? Anyway.
One of my thoughts is to be mindful of who you're choosing to follow.
I think we already touched on that, but it's really struck me with the social media aspect of our lives right now and the influencer thing going on that I think because we're at our age, I don't know that we understand always how serious that is for the young people, but it really is a world they're living in where they're totally disconnected from each other, like, at least as far as this authentic sitting at a table and sort of thing. And they're very lonely because they're choosing social media a lot of time.
That is. That's just the reality of the world that they're growing accustomed to. And that was never the case for me. I had to dial up Internet if I wanted to IM somebody else, which is ridiculous. They don't even know what that is. Like, that's wild. They don't even know what that is. But—
And that was a bad experience.
It was terrible. Dial up. Yeah. Like, but I just, I think that, it's interesting to me that I think that right now the whole influencer culture is so huge, and yet it is primarily, like, pioneered by people who are very, very, very young. And not to say that they don't have life experience or wisdom, but they, generally speaking, don't have the same life experience or wisdom that, like, the older generations do have. And yet they're all taking cues from one another as if they did. And it's just a very, I think, sad and dangerous way to live. So that is, like, one of my first thoughts is, like, really be mindful of who you're following. And do they have the authority to lead you? Like, own your life and, like, recognize that it is worth something. And first and foremost, you would want to follow Jesus.
But I think my other thought on that is that following Jesus has been absolutely worth every, like, it's not easy all the time. Like, I think we talked about, like, you know, you follow Jesus and you're trying to figure out the next steps after that. After he commands you to do something, you're like, do I really want to do this? And I don't know. But it isn't always. It really isn't always easy. And sometimes you make choices that really hurt, like, a lot in the moment, but every single time, like, from personal experience, it's always been worth it. So that's my soapbox right there. Had a lot of thoughts on following Jesus.
Ask not how much it costs. Ask, is it worth it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This reminds me of Seth Dillon when he was talking about the experiment.
Oh, yep.
Oh, right.
Thirty people in the room, and 29 knew they were part of an experiment, and the 30th did not. And they were told to expressly say the wrong thing about a card they had in their hand. And the one person, that experiment was, what would the one person do when it came around to them? Would they say the wrong thing and follow the lead? Or would they come out and say the right thing? And was it 70-some percent of the time? People would just follow what the rest of the crowd had done?
If everybody was in unison saying the wrong thing, yeah.
That effect known as group think.
Yeah.
But if one person in that group said the correct answer, then it was 6% of the time that the person was being experimented upon would follow the rest of them and say the wrong thing, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
They just needed a leader to rise up, and then somebody followed that lead.
Yeah.
Interesting.
All right, well, thank you, everybody, for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon, et al. We look forward to another episode in the near future. Thank you.
Take care.
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