Episode Transcript
Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al, A Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
Along with psychologist and author, my brother, Dr. Jon, my name is Chris, your host, joined once again with special education teacher Robyn Nelson, and for the first time in the studio, Hunter Beirne and Riley Beirne. Welcome, everybody.
Hey, welcome.
Hunter, you are currently wrapping up at Seattle Pacific University.
Yeah, I'm wrapping up a master's in teaching right now, and I also did my undergrad there and played basketball there.
Excellent. All right. NCAA Division 2.
Yep.
How was the season?
It was good. Yeah, it was a, it was a nice way to wrap up my basketball career. So, I'm very fortunate to have played there and got my education there and definitely taking away some great memories.
All right, great. And what's on the horizon, next steps?
Hopefully getting a job teaching history to high school students.
Great. And also involved in Life Church 425, correct?
Yeah.
Excellent. Great. All right.
And Riley Beirne, welcome. Currently a pediatric dental assistant? Is that correct? How long have you been doing that?
Just a little under a year right now.
All right, excellent. And what's a typical highlight of your day working there? What's your favorite part?
I genuinely have, like, a love for children. So, knowing that dentistry is kind of a place where a lot of fears actually do come in and start, it's kind of a fun way to be able to, like, play a part in making things more comfortable or being able to show, like, love and compassion, which I've been able to, like, see often happen. But I do know that a lot of fears that carry over into adulthood with dentistry start very young. So, it is.
I can attest to that. I wish that someone like you or you were there when I was a kid, because my experience was messed up.
Yeah.
It was like torture.
And also involved in Life Church 425?
Yes.
Okay, excellent. All right. From mental health to dental health.
Come on now. Come on now.
Here on The Defined Podcast. All right, today we are continuing our study in the book of John. We are in chapter 3. We're going to look at verses 19 through 21. And our topic today is "works." And that word appears three times in this passage. It appears in each of these verses 19, 20, and 21. So we'll dive in a little more closely here. And reading out of the ESV.
"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
And that word used for "works" also translated "deeds" in the King James Version, the word is "ergon" in Greek meaning, "work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work."
And the works, according to this passage here, it could be works that are, referring to works that are evil or works that are true. So those are the two opposing views there of what those works could involve, so. And speaking of the word evil, that's the, that's the English word there that it's translated. It seems like, like evil is not a word that we use too much in our day-to-day. It, you know, you could watch like a newscast, for example. And you know, sometimes there's good news and sometimes there's bad news and there's crime and stuff like that. It takes a particularly heinous crime for them to say that was just straight up evil that happened. There's bad stuff happening all the time.
And yet that word, one of the words there for evil, the Greek word could also be meaning "worthless" or, you know, bad, but just kind of without value. And so, if we really lower the bar for what evil is, you know, you could perhaps say people don't like the light because they like things that are worthless, you know. And by doing that, I think it helps us to apply it to a, a greater portion of the population, right?
Because we, we tend to think like there's like 99 percent of people, like what's good, right? And just a little small sliver of people kind of are demented and like evil. But if we just say it's things that are worthless.
That are what?
That are worthless. But if we, if we use the word worthless for it, we can see how that's applicable to a lot more people, it would seem, right?
Yeah.
So anyway, that's kind of the, the opening thought there. We'll take it around the table for opening comments and then we'll dive in a little bit more. So go ahead, Dr. Jon.
That's actually, yeah, actually what you just said. I'll just kind of go off of that for a second because with the context of like what society says would be like evil, like, you said, something heinous, a lot of people would say, like, "Well, I'm not evil. I mean, that's not me, like, I'm a good person. I do this. I, you know, I give to charities or I help people, little old ladies across the street. I'm not evil." So, it is interesting if we, if we look at it on the right context, you know, at least that makes a little bit more, it makes more sense from a biblical standpoint about we're actually, what we're actually kind of looking at. So that was that. Yeah, that's interesting. So actually, I'm going to also start with just a little bit of a story that has to do with good works and good deeds. And so, the other day I was at the grocery store and I was standing behind this sweet, old little lady. And her bill, it came to like $73, $74. And so, when she went to pay for it, she only had like $70. And so, I offered to help. And she's so sweet and so, you know, just independent. She didn't want any help. But I finally, like, I insisted and, you know, we finally put her groceries back on the shell.
That's a deeds joke. That's a good deeds joke. Okay.
But in all reality, so the.
If you can't. If you can't pay for it, you can at least help her put it all back.
That's right. That's right.
So, I think one of the things that kind of stood out to me in this Scripture in particular was kind of in the context of which it was given. He was talking with Nicodemus. So, Jesus and Nicodemus having this conversation. And which, by the way, it's—I kind of for the first time kind of thought about this—like, how cool is it that Nicodemus got to speak with Jesus and he got to hear the John 3:16, "For God so loved the world," in a conversation just between the two of them? I mean, talk about, like, being like just a really kind of a cool, like, place and time. But what kind of struck me is this portion, it starts off with Nicodemus came by night to see Jesus. And in this particular passage that we're looking at, it's all about light and dark. And so, a man comes by night to speak with light because Jesus says that I am the light. And so, it's almost like there's so much, even like little things in this portion of Scripture that, like, Jesus does not leave, like, there's no loose ends or no, like, every little bit is, like, so really cool. And just the fact that he came by night to speak to light, and then this portion is just talking about light. So, I guess that's kind of kind of one of my first top line thoughts anyways, just the context is really interesting. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, when you were talking about what we consider to be evil and sort of that threshold that we set for what qualifies something as just bad or not good, we might not even classify it as bad. I think there's these different layers to which we classify something. But when we think about what the ground is like at the foot of the cross, it's really level, right? So, I think actually what we consider evil, when we give it a certain definition is a lot more than what we wouldn't consider. And so, when we look at works and we look at people's actions, I think that when this passage is talking about people who hate the light, I think everything outside of Jesus that we—like if we don't have Jesus in us and we're just living for self, then doesn't that classify everything that we do as sinful?
Right.
And so, I actually think the scope of what we can, could consider evil is much broader than what we, what we say, you know, counts as, as evil. But in that same, in that same sense, I think evil has such a definite, like a specific definition with that. I don't want to say like, you know, everybody's evil and everybody. But outside of Jesus Christ.
Right.
Right. Without Jesus, like, we're all in the same boat.
Yeah, right.
Exactly. Yep.
Excellent.
I think focusing on like intentionality with things and how we live the life that Christ has given us. When we put that translation from like evil to worthless, I think we can put into perspective how we choose to live our life. And obviously there's two types of people. There's ones that have Christ in the center of their life, which gives purpose and gives intention versus people that have life without Christ, which kind of going back to kind of the thought that you were having about like if Christ isn't the center, that, then doesn't that make everything away from Christ, you know? And so, I think putting that into perspective with how we choose to fill our time. You can be busy, but it can still be like unintentional or it can be busy and you can be progressing towards things. So, I think when we put it in that light, you can kind of start to see a difference in how it applies to a day-to-day.
Yeah. It's almost like in my mind I was kind of thinking like mindfulness, like being mindful how you spend your time, how you spend. Because yeah, you can like doom scroll for how long? I mean, that's kind of a waste of time. I think we all agree with that. And then. Yeah, just being mindful about how we're spending our day because it can be, like, worthless. Like, how we spend our time can be worthless. And there can be things that are. Yeah. Can fall in that category for sure. Yeah.
Yeah. Actually, my opening thought was, like, really in line with. Not to just repeat everything you guys just said, but, like, in really in line with what you guys were saying. I was thinking, like, I. With the word evil. And when we think of deeds and evil works and stuff, I think that sometimes our definition of that will change with culture unintentionally. Like, we look at, like, what culture would call evil, and then we are with that. But if they don't call evil anymore, then, you know, like, we have to be really careful that our own definition of that doesn't also change with that. Which means that, like, you guys are saying our definition of what God would call good and evil has to be defined by the Bible. And when that's the case, then, like, all of us fall short. And so, I mean, for me, like, even with what you guys were saying about, like, wasting time, we did, at a church. At the beginning of the year, our church had, like, a moment where the pastor had us all kind of, like, write down, like, sins that God was convicting us about, like, getting rid of. And we wrote it on a piece of paper, and then we went outside and we put it in the trash. And I remember, like, I'm praying about it. I'm like, I don't have any, like, major, like, poster sins like that. I would, like, qualify that. But I remember, like, God really convicted me about wasting time. And just like. And I remember thinking that was, like, a good humbling moment of, like, I don't have anything that, like, the world would probably call, like, a big deal, but, like, I do have, like, just like anybody else, like, when I'm looking in comparison to Jesus, rather than comparing myself to, like, my neighbor necessarily, like, I do still fall short. And God wants to, like, bring me more up to a higher standard, I guess, of living. So, my opening thought, I guess, was in line with you guys.
All right, great.
Yeah, that. That verse there. Another observation there is that it says, "For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
In that verse 20, the person who does wicked things, the verb for do for "does," "does wicked things." That's a different verb than "does what is true."
And so doing wicked is different than doing what is true. And the difference in those verbs. And I'm not a Greek scholar, but I'm seeing what I'm seeing here.
You can read.
I can read.
Brag.
So, the verb for doing something evil, it says the meaning of that word is, "To practice, to do, to perform, to accomplish."
The verb for doing the truth is, the meaning is, "I make, manufacture, construct."
So, there seems to be like—and a little bit more on the, this is just in the interlinear Bible that has this.
Sorry, can you say that one more time? The first one.
Yeah. The first verb has to do. So, the one used for doing evil, it says, "To practice, to do, to perform, to accomplish." And then it says the cultural background of that verb is, "In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of 'prassó,'" that's that verb, "was often associated with the idea of habitual practice or conduct." So, habits. The verb used for doing the truth, that the background for that verb says, "In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of 'doing' or 'making' was integral to daily life, encompassing everything from craftsmanship to moral actions."
Interesting.
So, it appears to be there's a contrast between worthless habits rooted in deception versus valuable craftsmanship rooted in reality or truth.
Right.
And so, some people love worthless endeavors, right?
Right.
Because they prefer the deception as opposed to actually building something of value rooted in truth or reality. And so, it just reminds me of the account in Matthew where Jesus says,
"'Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall because it had been founded on the rock.'"
So, kind of speaking of craftsmanship, building something, right?
"'And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.'"
So, that's Matthew 7:24-27. So, the thought of building something, craftsmanship kind of brought that to mind.
Right.
And that there are actions that we can take that are either of value or they're just wasting time.
Right. Yeah.
And you know, there. If there wasn't a draw to it there, people wouldn't do it. There is a draw to, to doing things that are, that are, well, just short term—I guess you'd call it—benefits.
Self-centered. Hedonistic. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So.
Yeah.
It seems like, yeah, to broaden the scope for things that are self-focused or self-centered or self-indulgent. That's, that's another element of, of the "evil" in a sense, right?
Right. Yeah. Well, I mean I just from that point it's interesting how like God is a incredible creator. I mean obviously that's how the whole book begins it's the creation account. And it's interesting how there's good deeds associated with creating something and basically taking the image of God and using that in, in on earth and in our relationships. And the opposite of that is essentially laziness, which is non-creation and, but then self-indulgent though, too. Yeah. And then the verse, consider the ant thou sluggard. I mean that's another, another kind of, you know, work versus lazy, you know, verse also. So. Yeah, it's really interesting.
Right.
Yeah, I think it's, it's God's character to create and when we don't create, we're not using that portion of what we have access to which is we're made in the, we're created the image of God.
Right.
So, to create is part of our makeup. Supposed to be anyways.
Well, and I'm thinking like similar to that, but like along the lines of like you're talking about habits, something we do absentmindedly, like and we're born into a sin nature. And so, if we have to, if what we're inclined to do are these useless, worthless deeds, I guess, then we have to have some sort of intentionality about doing something different. That's like where I'm seeing that, like in that creati— like the creative aspect or to create and to move towards something more fruitful. But really, it's also just, I'm inclined to go one way in my human nature, but what God is calling me to is to step out of that. And I have to, in order to do that, I can't just go with my own human nature. I have to intentionally seek something better.
Yeah, exactly.
That was really interesting.
Yeah.
I would never have known that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I was going to say, I think when you pointed out like the other like context for like does evil also kind of rooting into like performing. I was briefly thinking about how easy it is to just kind of like perform for our peers or perform for those around us and how that can oftentimes be very absent minded of what we're saying or what we're doing. And then Robyn, when you were mentioning like having that in like, intentional thought. Like, you have to think about those things first, and you have to kind of dwell on that or at least be able to humble yourself enough to hear what either the Lord speaking into your life or what he's convicting you of. And I think one of those things that I often kind of have also felt is that conviction of I'm not putting, like, thought behind it. I'm just kind of mindlessly doing it. And so, when there's, like, that thought process or even just like, that heart posture where you're like, okay, God, like, I know that you're speaking to me in this way, or you're wanting me to focus on this more, I just think opens the door for God to come in and then reveal that or work through you in that. But even that is intention in building versus with, like, performing. It's very. I mean, oftentimes we could correlate performing with also being fake and depending on the context that we're, like, looking at it in. But I just thought that that was kind of interesting with those, the different contexts between the words.
Very well said.
Yeah.
Any other thoughts before we.
The only other thought I had was just how many verses there are about laziness in the Bible.
Yeah.
And I almost wish I had just, like, a quick go to.
I just pulled one up, and I was like, I don't want to go down this road.
Well, I mean, but it's. Yeah. It starts to make a lot more sense why there's so much talk about, like, don't be lazy.
Right.
Don't be, like, the man who, like, puts his hand in the food and then is too lazy to bring it to his face. Right?
Yeah.
So, there's. There's just a lot about it. So, I mean, that just. Yeah. This whole portion of this makes it make more, even more sense.
Even then. Like, if you think about. Someone once said it this way with, like, King David looking out over at Bathsheba like, he was a king. He should have been at the front lines. But, like, he was, like, when that battle was happening. I'm just throwing a curveball in front of no one who. People who don't know that story. But basically, like, there was this, like, war going on, and he should have been at the front lines of battle, but instead he was at home and he's, like, sitting on his roof and then notices a beautiful woman bathing, and so leads into this insane sin that he goes into. And I think that what you're saying is like, so in line with that, like, a lot of times, like, it's our own just, like, idleness that will, like, lend us toward paths that we never meant to go down.
Right. Well. And so, actually, so a little bit in that line. So, yeah, verse 20, I thought, is the, is kind of the verse that stood out the most in this section. Again,
"For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."
And so, I was looking up a little bit of commentary on this. And so, Barnes' Notes on the Bible says about this particular verse,
"This is true of all wicked men. They choose to practice their deeds of wickedness in darkness. They are afraid of the light, because they could be easily detected. Hence, most crimes are committed in the night. So with the sinner against God. He hates the gospel, for it condemns his conduct, and his conscience would trouble him if it were enlightened."
And so, whether it's kind of like an idleness where you're kind of just, your foot's off the gas a little bit, or it's, you know what you're doing is wrong and you're doing it anyway. And I just remember, like, growing up in those moments where I knew I wasn't in line with what God was calling me to do in the behavior or whatever it was. And those were the times, I know full well, looking back, that I did not want to read my Bible. I did not want to talk to God. I didn't want to pray. It just like, it became. That became like, almost like a repellent. It's like it just. It just doesn't feel. Doesn't feel good. And I think that it was a little bit of a taste of. I don't think I ever got to the point where, like, I hated the light, but I do feel like I got to the point where I was like, I could feel a little bit discomforted by it. The exposure, it was just like, it wasn't, it didn't feel good.
So, yeah, I think it's just kind of interesting. Kind of really random. Sort of reminded me of, you ever seen Bench Warmers?
Yeah.
Nick. Nick. Nick. What's his name? His name is. Anyways, he's. He can't. He can't be in the light.
Really good story.
What's his name? Who's the guy that plays that?
I know who you're thinking of.
Nick Swardson, sorry.
Does that just come to you?
Nick Swardson.
Yeah, wow.
Yeah.
I think that what you're saying, though, too, that makes me think of, like, how often, too, when we're kind of living in a way that we know that we shouldn't, we'll avoid people that represent the light, too. And then, like, on the flip side of that, often people might avoid you for carrying that light because of what is going on in their own hearts and stuff. It just is like, something I was just thinking about when you said that, like.
It's like we're handing out sunburns.
It impacts your relationship. Oh, my gosh.
We're not trying to, but.
Right. Yeah.
It hurts.
They're getting burned.
Maybe a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and kind of along that thought of just expanding the applicability of it because, you know, it seems to be, at first glance, and this is the way I've really tended to understand this passage of John. There's basically believers and non-believers. That's how I kind of viewed it. You know, there's those who believe in Jesus and those who are opposed to God.
But if we kind of broaden the definition, you know, a lot of the New Testament, it's written to the church.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, Paul's letters. How does it open? To the church in Corinth. To the, you know, to the saints.
Right.
The warnings in there are for the people who already believe in God, right? And so, even Paul himself in Romans, chapter 7, starting in verse 21 out of the ESV.
"So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
So, he's acknowledging that—he uses the word "evil" there, right?—that even the apostle Paul would fall in the camp of potentially having to be intentional about staying in the light and loving the light and not being drawn to that side of him that actually, as he calls it, the flesh, that that's a real struggle there. So. So that expands the applicability of it to not just believers and unbelievers, but even the church needs to be very intentional about, you know, about remaining, as Jesus said in the vine in John 15:5,
"'I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.'"
Kind of like you were saying, Hunter.
Well, and I suppose it could be argued that it's first applicable to the church and then to those who are outside of salvation or the church. And it wasn't it Paul that said, I do the things that I don't want to do and I do the things that I don't want to do? I mean, there was a struggle there that—and I just love the fact that it's vague—that he says something very vague and he doesn't say what it is. Because I think that's more relatable to people who read that. It's like even Paul was struggling with something that he couldn't shake it didn't seem like. And he was very humble. Like in that passage where he's talking about, look, I'm just as susceptible as anybody else is why you have to be mindful about how you're living your life and what you're thinking about and what your behavior is, because every day is on the battlefield. And that's kind of just the world that we live in. But it's great to have something like Paul that wrote like a big chunk of the New Testament to say, yep, I'm right in there with you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was sort of thinking, well, first, I always appreciate reading Paul and sort of his stark honesty that comes across. I think it's really relatable that everybody, to everybody that reads it, and yeah, to see somebody that is sort of revered be so raw and honest about their experiences in fighting their flesh, it's refreshing. I don't think it's something that you see all the time and especially across religions. And when we think about doing good or not doing evil, whichever way you want to look at it, I was thinking that sort of every philosopher in religion identifies that we're not naturally disposed to do good, that that is not our natural inclination to be virtuous or to do good. And so, an example of this would be Aristotle talks about being virtuous is this habitual inclination towards doing good. It's this, it's something that takes practice, and you have to do it over and over and over again until you develop it into your natural response. And then even to that extent, though, you see Paul saying, as far as I'm going, I'm still straining on. I'm still stretching to what you know, the standard that Jesus has set in his lifetime, I'm still straining towards that. So, it's something that I don't think you ever achieve. I think that's the difference between the Christian lens and the Greek philosopher's lens is that that's not something that we really achieve on this side of heaven.
And like it not being like the predisposition is like virtue, I guess, kind of comparing that or coupling that with the building up portion that we talked about earlier it is so much more difficult to build something than is to tear it down. And like living a life unvirtuous, that's self-centered, hedonistic, that doesn't take a lot of effort. It takes like no effort. Because like, if I feel like doing this, I'm going to do it right here and right now. But to live virtuously, that's like building something that, it can take a lifetime, I mean, of refining and continuing to, you know, look into how can I, how can I do it better the next day? Obviously, it's not a works-based faith, it's grace. But yeah, it's far more difficult to build something than it is to tear it down. And so, I think that's, yeah, maybe that's partially why our predisposition isn't to build and to be virtuous is because it's difficult stuff.
And I would say that's why you can't do it outside of the Holy Spirit. So, nothing we do outside the Holy Spirit, is truly virtuous because we don't know what our aim is when we're doing that. So outside of the Holy Spirit, our aim would be either self-gratification or presenting an image to, of how we look to people that. You know, I was thinking about it, this sounds silly, but there's an episode of Friends where Phoebe and Joey are sort of going back and forth about can anybody do something just for the sake of it being good? And he's like, they can't. And they go down all these, you know.
Yeah, altruism.
Yeah. And they're like, she ends up donating to PBS. She has this horrible backstory with PBS and she ends up donating. And then it gets Joey on TV and so she's like, oh, I really can't do something just for the sake of being good. And so, I think it just gets that point of like without Jesus Christ, without that being our aim, anything that we do falls short of that.
Yeah.
Of good. So, I think it really again goes back to much more I think can be classified as evil.
That's so funny. I think about that episode all the time.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's funny. I mean, kind of in that same vein, I had a quote from C.S. Lewis that might be appropriate here, but he said about good and evil, that,
"Good and evil both increase at compound interest. That is why the little decisions you and I make every day are of such infinite importance. The smallest good act today is the capture of a strategic point from which, a few months later, you may be able to go on to victories you never dreamed of."
And I thought that just with how you were talking about that, too, like, it didn't really occur to me until we were talking about the difference between, like, habits being evil works and then, like, intentional construction toward good works, that it's like an investment either way you go, you're investing toward one thing or the other. That nothing, none of it really stands alone, I guess, like, it all is leaning toward one thing or the other, depending on where you're choosing to put your works.
Yeah.
So.
That's good.
Yeah.
Well, what are your thoughts on this here? You know, Jesus, a lot of his words really does kind of redefine a lot of the current understanding of what it was, what evil was, for example, what good is. Like, he even said to that guy, like, "Why do you call me good?" There's no one good but God.
Yeah.
He said, "Good Teacher." Okay, so just to make sure we're all on the same page. Only God is good.
Right.
And so. But a lot of people think that their good works, you know, if they'll do them in the light, there's a caution against that even, you know. Like Jesus says in Matthew, chapter 6, starting in verse 1,
"'Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
'Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.'"
So, Jesus is saying, there's still things that are done in secret, and there's still things that are done in the light.
Right.
But he flips them.
Yeah.
He now says, whatever you intend to want to do in the light, and let people see and let people observe about you. He says, now do those things in secret.
That's awesome. He flips the script.
And the things that you used to do in secret, bring it into the light.
So, what are the things that would have been done in the darkness and they're brought into the light? Well, it'd be the sin, right? And so, Jesus says in Luke chapter 18, starting in verse 9.
"He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get." But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.'"
So, the second man brings his sin into the light, right? And that is using that term like, what is true? Like, it's true. He loves the truth. This is who he actually is.
Yeah.
And he needs God.
Yeah.
As opposed to deceiving oneself.
Right.
You know? And so, Jesus really raises the bar, as he does in many, like, in many, in many ways, that the truth is that the man needs God. He's calling on God and needs help. Right? So.
Yeah.
Any thoughts on that?
Yeah, just like, I've never thought about that before, which is really interesting. Just how it's just how you laid it out there. That's crazy how there are. Yeah. Things are supposed to be done in the dark, and there's things that are supposed to be done in the light, but it's not the old way of doing it. And so, I think that's pretty amazing. It's. Yeah, don't let people know your good works and righteous acts and deeds, but bring, but bring the junk to the light so that it can be dealt with and God can deal with it. But. Yeah, other than the fact that I've just never thought about that before. Yeah, that's really interesting.
In a way I think that the way that you're saying that is like, the good work then is the truth? Is, I feel like you kind of just summarized it that way in a way, like the man being honest about where he's at was the good work of that moment.
God definitely noticed it.
Right.
And so, it's a, it's an action that God took note of and, and the man ended up being justified because of that. It took the action of prayer. And that is a work in a sense.
Yeah. And maybe it comes down also to like, because one of the thoughts that I had during this kind of looking at this is, well, where does like, evil come from? Like, where do like evil works come from? And a lot of times in the Bible it talks about the heart. And so, like Luke 6:45, it says,
"'The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.'"
And then Mark 7:21-23,
"'For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.'”
And so, when we started to talk about, okay, so then where does, where does the behavior of like, well, at least I'm not like them, like, but look at me, like, where does that come from? Well, it comes from the heart. The man who comes beating his chest saying, I'm a sinner, where does that come from? Well, it came from the heart. And so, I do think that everybody taking a little bit of, you know, consideration, account of okay, what's actually coming out of us? Is it producing, I mean, you'll know them by the fruit of the, the fruit of their works, right? And so, I think that, yeah, also looking at where these behaviors come from, being reminded that comes from the heart, that's probably a good thing to keep in mind too.
Well, I think it's funny because a thought that just kind of popped into my head is like when we leave things in the dark, you know, that's when I feel like the enemy is more prone to attack those thoughts or to let us think these things that are ungodly or not of God. And in reverse, when we do bring things into the light, while it's in an uncomfortable feeling sometimes because we're being met face with our conviction, it's allowing like that to be worked through or to be acknowledged or for other believers or other people of Christian faith to come around you and like in. And it talks about, like, bring things to the light so that those around you and yourself can pray about these things so that God might. That's not the exact line of the verse, but to bring healing. And so, I think it's funny that we're told that our hearts are deceitful. And so, depending on if we bring things into the light to gain and seek wisdom from fellow believers and just also what Christ has to say versus letting things dwell kind of in a negative light or in the dark, we start to see more of those actions of what we're like building, like what we're keeping inside to continue to fester versus being seeking truth and being honest, like having an honest heart posture in that sense.
Right.
Humbling yourself to, you know, be that in that position of the tax collector saying, like, I need you, God, because it's not going to be me. Like, I need you. So, I think it's interesting when we get.
Yeah, and your point about community and just like the danger of isolation because that's where the devil does a lot of dirty work, right? And yeah, to separate ourselves from God. Like how we kind of talked about earlier, how this was originally written to the church. And so, the church needs to be the first that kind of takes heed, like, be careful about, you know, these things. I've kind of thought of it like, so God's covering, like when you're saved, I mean, you're saved and there might be some discussion about if you can lose, you lose your salvation, stuff like that. Fair enough.
But it's like, I've always kind of thought of it as it's raining out, and so we have an umbrella. And the closer the umbrella is to us, which is God's covering, the more protected we're going to be from the rain. But as the umbrella goes up and remove ourselves from God, it's not like the covering is not there anymore, but a lot more rain is getting on top of us. And so, I think that's kind of the cautionary tale also, kind of to your point, about like, isolation and removing ourselves from healthy environments and healthy insights from others, other believers, is that we're going to experience a lot more difficulty because we're isolating ourselves. And it's not because God wants to push us away. It's because we're willingly removing ourselves from that protection.
And at the same time, here's, so Galatians, chapter 6, starting in verse 1. So, you're talking about isolation and people removing themselves from others. It says here,
"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness."
So, the onus is on this case, it's on the church to go to the isolated one or the one who. Well, they must be isolated, right? Because. Or at least some aspect of their life has become isolated or at least brought into the darkness, not into the light, right?
Right.
And so, there's sort of this charge for the church to be the one who initiates the bringing of that one back into the light, right?
Right.
It says,
"Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."
And then verse 3,
"For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself."
So that word deception, deceives, shows up again.
Right.
So.
Well, then it's like, do like Jesus, like leave the ninety-nine and go after the one. Right? It's kind of like that, it's in that same vein. Is if some, if you see somebody that is, that's drifting, it's like, well, don't, "it sucks to be them," Right? No, you go after them for sure because, yeah, it's not going to get better for that person away from, if you want to call it, the herd.
I think it's important that that verse sort of suggests that everybody would bring what's in the dark to light, right? Because if you have a group of people in the church, like this is the issue we saw with the, with the Sadducees during Jesus' time and the Pharisees during Jesus' time, because they were sort of here looking down on everybody and saying, well, you need to bring your sin into the light. We're good.
Yeah.
We're okay. Because we're comparing ourselves to this, how we see you. And so, we don't actually have anything to bring to the table. And so, I think part of having people bring what's in the dark to the light is really modeling it for them, especially for new believers to see there isn't this upper group of believers who have achieved this certain level to where they don't have anything to bring to the table. And sort of getting back to Paul being really honest in his writing about his struggles, I think when we read that, we see the comfort that we experience from that. And so, to then go and replicate that and share how that applies in our own life I think is really valuable. And I also think it gets back to the point of like who do we attribute our good works to? And if it's anything less than Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit working in us, then I think we might have an issue of pride there. And so, I was watching this video not that long ago where Brooke Ligertwood talks about when we harvest the glory that's meant for God, whether in secret or in public, it sort of rots us from the inside out because it's something we were never meant to hold. And so, I think that what you were saying, that bringing the dark into the light and the light into the dark, it shows how well God knows us, that it needs to be a continual practice of saying, okay, anything that I think is good about myself, I need to attribute that to Jesus working in me, to the Holy Spirit molding me to be more like Jesus Christ. And anything that's not great, that's my flesh. That's the part of me that I need to bring out and keep working on and keep bringing into community for prayer and growth and healing and all those things. So I like, I like that.
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I know at the end of the day, if it's good, it's from God.
Right.
If it's bad, it's from flesh.
Yeah.
That's just what it comes down to. Yeah.
You know, I think it's interesting that you make those points because it's also how we're—again, if we're going to go back to intention and works or just how we live our life—if we're not constantly seeking out the Word or in this case, truth, then it is very easy to like, let those, what are like, I guess, our nature kind of, I'm trying to think of other words to use, but to kind of rule over that or domain, like have that domain there versus when we're speaking truth into what, like who Christ says we are, but also like how we're supposed to act on things, having that constant, like, truth speak, spoken into, like life is, then what gives the ability to make, like, have action on those things. But then it just, it's like a reminder of that it needs to be something that daily. And if it's not daily, then that's opening things to, you know, let yourself like, let your flesh kind of take over.
Right. Kind of makes you wonder what was going through Satan's mind when he started to think that he was going to be equal with God. Right? I mean, just, I mean, and this is something that I think that we have to fight against on a daily basis is ourselves becoming equal with God or greater than. Because if he's not at the top, then we are, or whatever god that is. And it's usually us, it sure seems anyways. But yeah, I mean, that's the, that's like the tale as old as time is, is thinking that we're like God or can be equal with or greater than.
So, one thought that came to mind. So going back to verse 20,
"'For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.'"
And so, I started to think about like, all the verses that have to do with people hating us as Christians. So, it's kind of like, so, Jesus is kind of setting that up right off the bat, just like, just so you know, like, people that love darkness will hate the light. And so, like Matthew 5:14-16, it reads,
“'You are the light of the world,'" speaking to believers. "'A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.'"
And so, Matthew 5:14-16 kind of has a lot of those key words in there, light and works and hate. And so, I think that's one of the things to kind of keep in mind is like, he's not like joking when he says that, like, you're going to be hated.
And how he sets it up with Nicodemus is that people hate the light. But then Jesus is like, but you are the light, so people are going to hate you. John 15:18-19 reads,
“'If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.'"
Matthew 10:22,
"'and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.'"
And then Matthew 5:10-12,
"'Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
'Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.'"
So, just kind of interesting that Jesus tells Nicodemus that people are going to hate the light. And then Jesus comes around and says, surprise, you're the light, so you're probably going to be hated too.
He really set him up.
Yeah.
So, we kind of talked about how the word evil could have a wider application than we tend to use in everyday English.
Another couple words I want to kind of look at is, we can look at is the word "hate." You know, those, talks about those who hate the light. And once again, just broadening that definition to make sure that we aren't saying, oh, that's those people over there and that's not us over here. That word "hate," it says, it's the same word that Jesus uses in Luke 14:26 out of the ESV.
“'If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.'"
So, the word "hate," it says here in this, in HELPS Word-studies,
"Note the comparative meaning of" this word "which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another."
So, this meaning can include to love less.
Yeah.
So, people, now let's just apply that to that verse in John.
If anyone loves less the light, they just love less the light than the darkness. They don't have to necessarily hate the light.
Right.
They just need to love it less.
Yeah.
It's almost like the conversation about what's evil. Like, we think that hate is like just going all out, like, I hate you and I'm gonna just do all evils to you.
Right.
Right. But it's just love less.
We use that word.
It's an issue of priority.
It's another extreme.
Yeah.
Yeah. We use like, "evil" as an extreme word. Some people use "hate" as an extreme word. Some people use it all the time, but. You know, "I hate that." "I hate you." Things like that. But generally, it's kind of an extreme word.
You get that a lot?
Ever since I saw Jim Carrey's The Grinch, I don't know. He stood out hating the Whos.
But if we just say it's to love less. And that's the real challenge. This is kind of where this challenge comes into these New Testament letters to the church, right? Make sure you don't love the light less than the darkness.
That really broadens it out and makes it more applicable, I think. Any thoughts on that?
Yeah, just the threshold is much lower.
It's much lower, right?
Yeah, it's a lot, lot lower. And again, the thing that strikes me is just out of the extremes, how I think that our English language and how we like, even perhaps our western culture, that hate and evil are looked upon as like, we think we know what it means. And I think that's the caution about reading the Bible in the context of the time, the era, the culture that you grew up in, because you think you know what it means just based off of your own understanding. But it's really important to understand the context of which it was written. And yeah, to that point, it's like hate doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.
Right.
The old Princess Bride, that word, you keep on using it.
I like that, lowering that threshold of hate, because I think it's sort of become common to position ourselves in this war against, at least in America sometimes, this war against everybody. You know, that Christians are being persecuted, that our values are being persecuted, that we're being attacked, that we're being hated. And I think to anybody who doesn't know Jesus Christ. I've had this conversation with my parents before. I think that there's a lot of people who think they're doing the right thing. Like, if they've never. If they've never read the Bible, if their worldview has really only been shaped by their experiences, by the people that they know, then they really think that what they believe is right. And so, I think approaching it from that point of view, instead of saying, "they're so against us, they're so, they hate what is good." Well, what's their perspective of good? How do they define—they think they're doing good. And so, I think taking it back a couple notches and really approaching it for what do we have in common? How do you view what you're doing as loving those around you versus how do we view what we do as loving those around us? I think it bridges these divides that I think can be viewed as really hard to speak across and find common ground. I was. I mean, I go to a Christian university, but that doesn't mean that, most people I would come into contact with probably don't identify as Christian, at least in sort of the groups and that I was in. And a lot of them, I'm like, man, you're good. Like, you're a good person. You're compassionate, you're empathetic, you care about the people around you. You put yourself second, and you don't even know who Jesus Christ is. And so, what does that say about people who do know who Jesus Christ is, who struggle to do those things? And so, when Jesus says on the cross, when he says, “'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.'” That level of humility of realizing that that hate isn't something that's just horrible and completely separates us from everybody. But if they don't know, if they don't know what good. Like, does that make sense?
Yeah.
Sorry, maybe that doesn't—
As if they shouldn't be pursued because they don't believe or think the same way or understand truth, then maybe. Right?
Yeah. I think that, like, with what you're saying, we kind of all are after the same thing in a way. We just maybe have a different idea of what good is. And I think really, anybody at their life, like, I can't say this on the whole, but at whatever point we're encountering someone in their life is just a window in time and we are all doing our best with what we have. Like, I just have to choose to believe that anybody I come in contact with is like, really doing the best they can with what they know, with what they've experienced, with what they've been exposed to, what their belief systems are. And I just so happened that God caught me at a certain time in my life and he's been able to transform my mindset. And even now, I'm still a huge work in progress. Like I can't really look at someone else's where they're at and condemn them for where they're at when I have been afforded the opportunity to know God and they've yet to maybe experience that, so.
Yeah, as you're talking Hunter, one of the things that came to mind, something I looked up, Matthew Henry's commentary. So, and we can kind of take a note again, going back to the context of this interaction is Jesus and Nicodemus. Matthew Henry writes,
Nicodemus "was afraid, or ashamed, to be seen with Christ, and therefore came in the night. When religion is out of fashion, there are many Nicodemites....But...Though he came by night, [Jesus] bade him welcome...and hereby taught [us] to encourage good beginnings, though weak."
Yeah.
And, "though now he came by night, yet afterwards...he owned Christ publicly."
So that's a really cool, just kind of reminder too. Is even this interaction, him coming by night. Maybe it was because he was ashamed or afraid or because of his status in the synagogue. And yet Jesus gave him a hey, let's meet wherever you're at, I want to meet with you. And that interaction, yeah, Nicodemus then proclaimed Christ publicly afterwards. Yeah.
Yeah. That's so good.
Well, in addition to, we talked about evil, we talked about hate. One more word that we could probably, if we can, we'll take a quick look at the word "love" also, because they loved the darkness or rather than the light, it says, now. Just speaking of deeds, we've talked a little bit about how, you know, other religions are pretty much on board with good works. And then we've also talked about how Jesus tends to raise the bar or change the definition completely to, at least challenges the current understanding. So, with regard to love, In Luke chapter 6, beginning in verse 32 out of the ESV,
“'If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.'"
Now that word "love" there, it's the agape love. Sometimes we think the agape, the self-sacrificial love, like oh, if I just do that to anybody, that's like the pinnacle, right? But he says if you agape love those who agape love you back, what benefit is that to you? If you're simply self-sacrificing for someone who has self-sacrificed back for you, he's saying that that is, well, he's questioning "'what benefit is that to you?'" Could it be worthless?
He's kind of indicating that there's not a reward, there's not a credit for that. That's not really worth what one might think that they're going to get something out of that. And so, yes, we need to be good to the, we need to be good to people. We need to be good, but we shouldn't, I think he's cautioning us not to deceive ourselves into thinking that we've actually attained the fullness of doing good the way that he wants us to, if we simply don't put ourselves out there to actually do good to those who may be persecuting us, right? That was probably like, I didn't know I was going to come across it that way, but I was reading this and that's just kind of where it led. I was like, that was probably the most surprising thing that the word agape was the word used there, the self-sacrificial love in that context there. What good is, "'what benefit is that to you?'"
Yeah, just a bunch of sacrificing back and forth, back and forth. Right.
And so.
Right.
Talk about raising the bar for what it is to do good deeds.
I mean, it's like.
Well, I think it's kind of interesting how outside of Christ we don't really know what actually these words are, right? Is, is what is good? I mean, we think we know what doing good works is. And yet like you just read, it's something perhaps quite a bit different. I mean, it's still good, but it's like, but it's not really benefiting you the way you think it might. I just wonder if sometimes people are left feeling empty even in their "good works," quote unquote. It's like, well, why is that? Well, because it's there's, there's no benefit to it. It's like, it's like empty calories. It's like you're not actually getting filled and you're not getting nutrition from something. It's just you're eating popcorn.
Yeah.
You have a popcorn diet and that's it. Or you're eating rabbit and you end up, you can't just eat rabbit into the wild. So, but that is interesting though, how we can misunderstand what, what we think we're doing, it might not actually be benefiting us the way that we think that it is.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, any closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of works?
I just think for me, it probably just kind of comes back down to the context that, that this whole conversation and then how Jesus was talking about works with Nicodemus. I just, I really do love the fact that Nicodemus came to Jesus curious, even though he came by night. And if the reason for that was because, you know, he was concerned, ashamed, whatever, nervous Jesus was like, it's all good. Let's have a conversation.
And the fact that like when the Bible says, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I mean the ultimate good act when we didn't deserve it, period.
I think that's just we, I mean, just take notes after notes after notes about how to actually do good works, what that means and just the beauty of, you know, this example between Jesus and Nicodemus I think is just, it's definitely going to be something I'll be thinking about for a while. Yeah.
Yeah. I was thinking of that same verse that you talked about.
Oh, yeah? Nice.
Yeah, that while we were still sinners, God sent his one and only son to die for us. And doing work, practicing works, letting the overflow of the Spirit in us pour out, and doing these things when you know you might not get anything back, like, that's when you know, that's when you know what your true heart posture is. That's when you really know where you're at. We talk about it all the time, practicing basketball at, you know, 20% or playing against somebody that you know you're gonna beat, that really does nothing for you. When you get to play somebody that's better than you or you get to a hard game, right? That's when all of these things come out. That's when you're, you figure out how prepared you are for a certain game. And so, if we're doing all these works and we're doing them knowing that they're going to be reciprocated or knowing that they're appreciated or that we're getting some level of gratitude or attention or whatever it may be, I don't think that really says much about the true posture of our heart. So, the example that God set for us of doing something even while we were still sinners, I think that says everything for how we should practice what we do in our own lives. That it's, yeah, you got to do it even when you don't get the outcome that you would hope for.
Yeah.
Yeah. Just definitely taking, like, a moment to kind of, like, digest it all. Because there's just so much, like, when you think about all the different things you can derive from just a word, you know, it just opens up like a crazy, like, understanding of all the context we could put it in.
Right.
Which then kind of makes it applicable for many different situations we find ourselves in or how we find other people.
But I think in this, like, kind of how I'm taking this personally is more so just like one, like, finding that intention behind how I choose to seek and act. Because truly the only thing we have control over is, like, our own actions or how we decide to act on things. But we don't have control over situations or things that, you know, come our way, but it's solely how we act on those things. And so when I take, like, the word act and, like works, you know, making sure that that's like, on that foundation of who Christ is, to then be able to implement those things or to bring things to the light or know when there's kind of a stopping point to, like, hold back a little bit or to, you know, quiet our hearts. And I often think back on, I believe in James, yeah, like being quick to listen, being slow to speak, and then again slow to anger. Like, when, there's a time, then there's a place to speak, and there's a time and a place to act. But then there's also times to keep to yourself or to have, like, that more so personal conversation with God, but not in, like, a public setting. So, I think that there's tons of different things to gather from it all.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah. For me, the, when I was first, our original scripture John 3:19-21, I read it in ESV and then I read it in another translation that kind of made me think of 1 John 4:18, where it says,
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love."
And this idea that, you know,
"'For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.'"
And I think the other translation said for fear that their works should be exposed. And that connection, for me, for 1 John 4:18, of like, really when—and you touched on this earlier in the podcast—was when we expose these works, evil works, it's for the sake of healing. Like, really, it's to come into the light. And the light brings us healing. And the ironic thing sometimes is that you don't really understand or fully can experience that until you've taken the risk of exposing those evil works to ultimately the Lord, but also to, like, a caring, like, community that can relate. And so, that was kind of a final thought for me is that, like, it's worth the risk, I guess, and to encourage people to make that, to take that step if they haven't. So, I'll end there, but.
Good. My closing thought will just be 1 Corinthians, chapter 3, verses 10-15. And just kind of continuing with this theme of building or craftsmanship, Paul uses that language here. Says,
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
So that seemed relevant, seemed applicable, how we are living and building and, you know, building something. There's choices every day that, that are either choices of value or, or choices that because of deception, because maybe self-deception, we believe something that isn't true, we think it's valuable. And there's just a lot of admonitions about what to pay attention to and be mindful of what's worth doing, what's worth putting your resources into and not to be deceived into thinking that certain actions, deeds, are contributing, when in fact they're not. So.
Yeah. Well, and I guess really, really quick is when Scripture says, you know, some will go to heaven and they'll say, you know, I did works in your names. And yet, you know, God will say, I never knew you, depart. And like, with this, what you just read is kind of like the person, they'll make it to heaven, but they might get up there saying, like, I did a lot of great things, like good works. And they're like, no, like, that's, that's burnt up, that's burnt up, that's burnt up. And like, how many of us may get to that point where we think that we've, we've built up treasure in heaven, but the actual, the works that we did down here weren't actually accurate to what the Bible said? Like, these are actually the good works.
Yeah.
And when Jesus says, I never knew you, I just wonder sometimes if that. It's like, I never knew you. I never heard you tell me about the real you. Like the man who said, I'm a sinner. Like.
Oh, yeah.
I just wonder if there's a connection there. Like, oh, yeah, you told me all about you. I know who you are. You told me. As opposed to the person who keeps it in the darkness and then doesn't tell Jesus who he is.
Yeah.
And then it's like, well, I never knew you. You never told me that you were actually a sinner. You told me you were like a, an amazing person that gave and prayed and fasted and all that.
Yeah.
That. Those things. So anyway, I just wonder if there's a connection there. Well, great discussion. Once again, thanks for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al.
Can I tell you guys my joke?
Yes.
Okay.
You don't have to listen.
Where do bad rainbows go?
I don't know.
Prism.
It's a light sentence and gives them time to reflect. Get it?
I get it.
I get it.
A light sentence. It's really on brand, right?
That's pretty good. That's pretty good.
I did not come up with that.
Yeah.
How much does a rainbow weigh?
I don't know.
Not much. It's pretty light.
It's pretty light.
It is pretty light.
I think we'll keep that in. It went, that went over pretty well.
It went pretty well?
Was it all of our raucous laughter that gave it away?
It's all I was hoping for.
It's pretty good. That's pretty good.
Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care, everybody.
Thank you.
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