S2 E18 | "Likewise" | Bible Study John 5:19-23

This is separate, but in the future when we're doing intros—I know it's like two seasons in now, I've never asked this question—but when you introduce us, are we supposed to say, like, "hi" or anything? Whassup? Let's bring that back. Whassup? Trademark infringement. Something. Copyright. Just do it. Make it your own. Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times. Along with psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll, my brother, my name is Chris, your host. We're joined again once again with special education teacher Robyn Nelson, educator and former missionary Josh Ferguson, from Reach Ministry, Mandy Michaels. Welcome everybody. Good to be here. Thanks. Welcome. Hello. Welcome to our season finale. Season 2 almost in the books. Looking forward to season 3 already. Make sure you like and subscribe so you'll know when that season begins. We do not have a definitive date on the calendar, but when it shows up, if you click the notifications, you will know when we know. You know? That's how notifications work. Season 3's going to blow your mind. We are looking at the word "likewise" today as it appears in John chapter 5. And our topics that we hope to touch on is: What does it mean that the Father is in Jesus as he's present here in the Old, in the New Testament, doing his miracles; also, what does it mean that Jesus, you know, is present in the Old Testament? A lot of scholars say that he's present there. So, likewise the Father and the Son, the Son and the Father. So, I'll go ahead and read that here in John chapter 5 out of the ESV verses 19 through 23. "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.'" We'll go ahead with opening thoughts around the table and continue the discussion. Dr. Jon. All right, yeah. So, it kind of piggybacking on that idea of Jesus in the Old Testament, God in the New Testament. And I just, I do think it's interesting how we tend to say, I hear it quite a bit, how Jesus in the New Testament is different than the God of the Old Testament. Like, God in the Old Testament is like vengeful, wrathful, this, more of an angry representation. And then Jesus comes on the scene and now it's all love and grace and mercy, almost as like as if they're two different people. And there's a couple reasons why it's very logical that the representation, it looks different, I think in the Old Testament to the New Testament, even though we're talking about the same God. Of course there's, the Israelites were being formed as a people, so that's a context. And then before kings it was a theocracy. And so, God was the head of the people also, from a legal standpoint, from a moral standpoint, like rules and guidance. It was from God through the high priest to the people. And so, the context, I think matters. The thing that I think is kind of most, not most interesting, but it's just kind of, it's, it ends up being a little bit interesting how we compare God represented in the Old Testament to Jesus in the New. God in the Old Testament, it spans about 1,500 years to 2,000 years. And the comparison is Jesus in his ministry, which spans about what, three years? And so, we're comparing three years to upwards of 2,000 years. So, I did a little quick math, and the percentage of 3 years compared to 2,000 years is 0.15%. And so, what I think is kind of interesting about that is I was thinking about like my own father. And so, there were times when growing up I would be punished. There were times when, fortunate enough, that we were able to go to like to Disneyland a couple of times as kids. And I think it would be interesting if I were to, let's just say, compare all the, like, the Disneyland dad as like, that's his whole character, is like, that's all that he is. Or I guess likewise, it could be— Hello. Hello. It could be like the times I was punished, right? If I were to say that that was all who he was, then that wouldn't encapsulate who his whole character is either. And so, if I were just to take just a year span of time, kind of like I was going the 2,000 years compared to 3 years of Jesus' ministry, 0.15%, in one year's time, we're talking about just over 13 hours. And so, if I were to use one year about my dad's character and to encapsulate his whole character, 13 hours of an entire year, that wouldn't be very fair to do that. And so, it's interesting how we've compared New Testament Jesus to, well, God in the New Testament to God in the Old Testament, as if they're two separate entities. So just a couple of thoughts there anyways. I liked what C.H. Dodd had to say about, in the verses 19 and 20, there being a parable where Jesus in his childhood would have learned carpentry from his earthly father Joseph, and in that way imitated him as a father figure. And, you know, a lot of people say that you see God as you see your dominant parent. And I don't think I agree with that. I think that you see God as you see both your parents, especially if you're growing up in a very healthy environment where they're emulating who God is in your life. And I think that's a really beautiful way that God created family. That's good. Nice. Yeah. I suppose my opening thought would be that the word likewise seems simple enough of like, to do something in a similar manner. But I was thinking about the impact of what we do likewise. Whatever we're copying or following after is going to dramatically change our life and people around us and in fact be, like, have eternal consequence. So, the likewise that we follow after basically determines everything. So, I was thinking how the word seems simple and yet the effect of what we are like is going to be dramatically important in our lives. Yeah. Yeah. I think I kind of went on a similar train of thought as you guys with this. Like when it said whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. I, this is probably the first time I really thought of it as like Jesus is doing what his Father would do. And I was thinking of all my students and young children and how the best way that they learn is by imitating their adults and like, their educator, their parents and whatnot. And how detrimental it also is, like, I mean, a lot of the students that I work with right now, their age range is like kindergarten, first grade, and so, they are what we would call like COVID babies or post-COVID babies and a lot of them grew up with adults having like, masks over their faces and so they couldn't see our faces and they're, a lot of them are lacking even that ability to understand what we're trying to communicate because they didn't have that experience where they got to see through imitation what we were doing. And so, like, that's kind of where my train of thought went, is that Jesus is able to communicate to us as people like, what his Father is doing, because otherwise, without this picture of Jesus, we wouldn't know what the Father is doing. And so, I've always heard that, but, like, I think it really hit me this time studying how, like, without Jesus walking the earth, we would have no frame of reference for who God is, really, like, in my personal experience. But yeah. Dive more into that later, but yeah. Yeah, up to this point in the book of John, Jesus has basically done several miracles here. He turned the water into wine at the wedding at Cana. And then he met with the Samaritan woman at the well and told her everything that she had done, right? And then just before this passage here that I read, Jesus had just healed the lame man at the pool of Bethesda. So, these are three things that Jesus did. And then Jesus says here, "'I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.'" So, this thought that the Father was involved in those miracles, changing the water to wine, speaking to the Samaritan woman, that he saw her and knew her, and then healing the man who could not walk, just this thought that the Father was involved, directing those actions, how does that change our understanding of these miracles at all? If any way? I definitely know how I kind of, how it struck me anyways, is—now this is conjecture—but I almost think that, like, God was like, I can't wait for Jesus to come on the scene so I can display my power in an intimate setting, in intimate ways. He showed his faithfulness and he showed his love and care in plenty of ways with the people, with the Israelites, whether it's getting them out of slavery from Egypt or providing for them in the wilderness. All these things are great. And then all of a sudden, Jesus comes on the scene, and then it's like, and now I'm going to heal this one person. And now I'm going to bring revelation to this woman that is going to help her with her shame. And now I'm going to provide wine at a wedding to keep the party going. Very intimate God. Very wants, He wants that connection with us. And I don't know, I just can't help but think that he was like, yes, now I can start to do these things in a different way. And so, yeah, to me, it's just the intimacy part where he's addressing people and their needs on a very personal Level. Yeah. And that's who he is. He wants to address our needs on a very personal level. So, the thought that Jesus, you know, when he was on the planet, it, the narrative will say, like, he travels from here to here, or he went from here to here, he got in a, he traveled this many days or got in a boat, you know, he's more or less, you know, restricted to being in a, one location at a time. Although he could have knowledge of things, you know, supernaturally. But the fact that he's doing things that the Father told him to do, it puts even all the more, I think, impact on the significance of him doing the miracle at the wedding of Cana, talking to the Samaritan woman at the well, healing the man at the pool of Bethesda. Because the Father, who is omnipresent, right, he sees everything all the time. And he told him to go talk to this individual. If it was just Jesus on his own, we could think, well, he randomly went and came across this guy because he could only be in one place at a time anyway. You know, he came up to this guy and talked to him. It might be kind of random, even though it might have a purpose. But the fact that the Father who is seeing all and is not limited by any, anything he, the Father was not in the flesh, or confined to a physical being, if you can say it that way. Well, the Father was directing him to do these very intimate miracles affecting one person at a time. And that is, it just adds another dimension, I think, to the significance of those miracles because the Father told him to do that. Right. Whereas sometimes we think like, wow, the Father's way up there. I'm so small. He's so big. You know. It just adds a little bit more, I think, depth to the impact of those miracles to those individuals knowing that the omnipresent Father, right, directed Jesus, showed him or did those things, you know, however you want to phrase it theologically accurately. Yeah. Any other thoughts on that question? No. No. No. No. She says. Hard pass. Well, I mean, I got something else. I got lots of arrows in this quiver. I can fire off another one if this one's going nowhere, so. No, I got another thing to say about that really quick. But I think for me, it just kind of goes back to my opening statement, which is the God of the Old, again, even my own verbiage, it's like, no, it's not the God of the Old Testament, it's God in the Old Testament. That's how ingrained, I think, that this whole idea of there's two separate entities in the New Testament and the Old Testament, but He is the same. And again, it's not a God of the Old Testament. It's God in the Old Testament that is just as loving and caring, but also just and merciful and holy. And so, yeah, I just think that it should shed some light, I think, more on the character of God as presented in the Old Testament. I think it goes to also the lens by which the Old Testament we read it, which is again, a lot of our understanding of God and the stories around his involvement with humanity is through the Israelites being formed and also as he is, once they are formed, he is ruler in their lives as the quote, unquote, king. Before kings, there was theocracy. And so again, through the lens by which he was operating, there's also plenty of mercy and love and kindness that is seen. You know, just read, you know, the wandering through the wilderness. It's like, how much did he provide and how often he, slow to anger through their grumblings and even their rejection of him? And different factions saying, no, we don't want you anymore? I don't know. I just. You can actually see everything that Jesus displays in the New Testament if you look for it in the Old. Right. It's the same God. And it's maybe different timing, different circumstances. Even like, if we could, I mean, continue with that analogy of like, working with actual kids in real time. There are times where my students see me as being a lot harder than other times. I'm not different in those moments, but I'm responding to a situation differently based on what the need is at that time. So, if that child needs correction, the appropriate thing is correction. If what they need is like encouragement or reinforcement or comfort, then I'm there to provide that. Very little are, like, are there times where like I am in my classroom and I'm just doing what feels good to me. It's what the child needs at that time. And I think it, like that would be a similar argument for what we see God in the Old Testament, is Him, like, Jesus wasn't on the scene yet. So, however he was dealing with the sin of his people or with his relationship with them is what was necessary, I think, for that time until he could bring Jesus on the scene at the exact right time. But I don't think it conveys that he was any different then than he is in the New Testament, it's just that we might be seeing, like, all of that is God is love. It is loving to correct. It is loving to, like, enforce discipline. Just like you're talking about your dad. Sure. Like. Well, and the inverse being, like, my parents weren't, like, opposed to corporal punishment. Right. And so, like, that's also, like, I don't think of either my parents as, like, the ones who provided, who gave corporal punishment, that's my whole idea of who they are. It's like, no, it's like it happened and it would happen when needed. But that's. But that's not. Or like, the parents who give timeout or the parents who, right? It's like, yeah. To be described as that's all that you are, any parent would be like, well, that hurts. Right. Yeah. That's not who I, I mean, loving parents, right? Yeah. Yeah. And likewise. Come on now. There it is. Yes, sir. I would add that, I mean, the flow of the Old Testament story—and now I understand why people can read the Old Testament and sometimes feel like it's more dramatic, more anger, things like that—but it's partly because of the context. So, if you're reading prophets, they were calling the people back from sin. Right? It's the warnings, because God does care about them. He also is just and cares about righteousness. And so, the Old Testament flow is this story of him creating people to bring about redemption, but they keep failing and failing, and he's calling. And I even think about myself in a classroom as well, that the beginning of the year, you're just getting to know the students. Now God knows all of us. But there's patterns of behavior that require different consequences. If you interrupt me once and I correct you, or a couple times, and then you figure it out, no big deal. If you do that every day over and over again, it wears my patience thin. Now, I'm not a full, I'm not God, obviously, and I'm only so godly and patient. But there's a sense that, like, eventually your behavior requires a bigger consequence and a more dramatic response. That's what they need to learn this. And so, there's times where you just open to some prophet or something, and it's kind of like, whoa, God's really mad right now. That's because for a thousand years, people have been turning their backs on him. And he uses the example even of, like, it's like someone being adulterous and unfaithful to their, you know, their spouse. So, it is dramatic. And then I think there's also a balance in reading through the Gospels, where if we're really reading all that Jesus says, I mean, even the same passage, he goes on to say, you know, if you believe in him, you have eternal life. You've passed from judgment, out of judgment, from death to life. But there's the converse too, of even in John 3, like, God so loved the world, he gave his only Son. Whoever believes in him who have eternal life. Keep reading that if you don't believe in him, you're under God's wrath. Like, so Jesus still preached that, like, here's the love and mercy and grace, but it's in me. I'm the resurrection, I'm the life. Like, you still have to submit to God, otherwise you're on the wrong side. And so, I do think there's also that balance of Jesus wasn't just saying nice things. He says a lot of difficult things like you're in or you're out, depending on whether you follow me. Right. Which are some tough, tough teachings. Just logical. That's the thing is he's just teaching logic. This is how it's all set up. Right? And even, like as you mentioned, the John 3:16 bit, if we were, I mean, I know it's, it takes place in the Gospels, and yet it is the quote unquote, Old Testament God. Before Jesus, God sent him to the earth. And so, an act of love and kindness is Him sending his Son knowing that He's going to die. Yeah. I mean that's, if that doesn't counter some perceptions about a, like a mean, ugly, nasty God, it's like, I'm not really sure what can at that point. Yeah. It's like, yeah. It's kind of like how we talked about before, like, John the Baptist can be kind of looked as maybe, like, one of the last Old Testament prophets. It's like, well, yeah, if you were just to put that John 3:16 just in like a few chapters back in the Old Testament, then that would be a great example of who actually God is, is loving so much also that he's going to send his own Son. Yeah. You know, I think I have a different perspective. I think that I have struggled with the Old Testament God versus the New Testament Jesus. Right? And I think that it does come from that parenting and that does come from that place of not really having that secure to safe teaching that you should have as child. And then you look at the Jewish people and how much they love God and they're still with the Old Testament God, right? They're still under that law and they still have all these festivals of what God did for them and how amazing God is and what God has, how he has brought them back and saved them so many times over and over and over again. And it's so interesting to see their faith and their love for the God of who we see as the Old Testament being so good and so merciful and loving and kind and, but we forget that because, maybe because we have the New Testament, to see the difference between Jesus and who we see the Old Testament God is. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Like different examples of his love that we see in the New Testament. But yeah, that's a great point, is Jewish people who don't believe that Jesus is God would still see God's faithfulness and goodness and mercy all throughout the Old Testament. Yeah. That's good. Well, at the time that Jesus was addressing people here, he was in a sense, kind of trying to speak to people who did not yet believe in him. You know, they did not believe. They, a lot of them could understand God or the concept of God. He himself was saying all the things that supported him. You know, like he says, like the miracles bear witness about me. The. Moses bears witness about me. Today we have, you know, it's pretty well-known, Christianity—you know, that word doesn't really appear too much in the New Testament—but now we, it's generally accepted around the world that Jesus Christ, Christianity, is a thing, it's legitimate. And now it's the, it seems like the Father aspect of it has been kind of almost a little bit sidelined. We don't hear as much talk of the Father as we do, in modern times, as Jesus. And yet Jesus is, so much of what he said was, you have access to the Father through me, he says. And so how is it, do you think that has transitioned over the years? Because I think that part of it is as humans, we have such a desire to see something to help believe it. And of course, when Jesus came, he provided tangible visual representations of God. And those tangible visual representations have been, have made its way into art, have made its way into culture. We have figurines of Jesus oftentimes like on the cross, or paintings of him with little children. Around Christmas time we've got the baby in the manger, we got the nativity scene, visual representations of Jesus. Those things help us to see him. And what he's saying is, when you've seen me, you've seen the Father. Something about us as humans, we need to see something. And it still is, seems difficult to grasp because even here in, so, in John chapter 14, starting in verse 8 out of the ESV, "Philip said to him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' Jesus said to him, 'Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.'" Anyway. So, Jesus is saying that he is showing us the Father. And something in today's culture, it just seems like the Father aspect is, I think, partly through that, our human need for visual representation, we see those aspects of Jesus in his earthly ministry, and yet I think that there's, that Jesus is pointing, he's making things, he's saying things that he is, likewise, he is representing the Father as he appeared in the Old Testament as well. I don't want to botch it theologically. Not in a Bible study. But Jesus, in the same way that the Father likewise is appearing in Jesus, right, in the New Testament, Jesus likewise is present in the Old Testament. Well, logically. Well, logically, they are one, right? And so, here's the verses that kind of support that. So John 1, verses 1 through 3. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." Okay, Genesis 6, verse 5. "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." We would oftentimes think of that as the Father. I don't know how we get that in our minds. That Old Testament, that's the Father. Right. But what if that's Jesus? Right? They're one. Oh. Jesus made them, and now he regrets that he made man on the earth. Later on, Jesus said that he was, I mean, one of the most clear examples that he's saying that he was in the Old Testament is when John 8, being beginning in verse 54, "Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, "He is our God." But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.' So the Jews said to him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'" Now, what is Jesus referring to here? Well, if you go back to Genesis chapter 18, when it says three angels appeared, one of them spoke with Abraham. He is talking about Sodom and Gomorrah. Right? And so, Jesus is involved in this judgment type action here. You know, like in this verse 22 of John chapter 5, "'For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,'" so, my question is, well, how long has this been going on? Sure. Right. Yeah. I think. Just now? The whole time? The whole time? It's been going on the whole time? It. A lot of people believe that Jesus was present, talking to Abraham there, talking about this judgment coming upon Sodom and Gomorrah. And then Jesus, he refers to Noah, a time of judgment. He refers to the, Sodom here in Luke chapter 17. He says in verse 26, "'Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise,'" Did you see that? Come on. I see it now. I see it now. "'just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.'" So, I don't know how we get this thought that Jesus is totally removed from these Old Testament activities here. There's a connection there. And he pretty, it pretty much gets all laid out there as we look at these specific examples. These are Jesus's words. Right. This is what he said. Right. Yeah. About himself. And he's connecting himself with Abraham. He's connecting himself with, I think, through Noah. This isn't hearsay, I don't think. He's not saying, like back when my Father was running things, these things happen. I think he's making it clear he was present with the Father in those instances. And then of course, a very similar thing happened with Moses also. Right. Yeah. Jesus connects himself with Moses at the burning bush. When he says I am, he identifies himself in those I am statements. And that's president, present in the book of Exodus as well. President Jesus. Yes. But the passage you were reading where Jesus says, was that John 8? Where he says, before Abraham was, I am? Where Jesus says, "'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'” He uses that divine title that God revealed himself to Moses with back in early Exodus, I think Chapter 4. And now you might, if someone is like, well, maybe he just said it in a funny way. The response, the next verse is, "So they picked up stones to throw at him," so, they considered this, like, usually when that happens to Jesus, they're saying, like, that's blasphemy. Because he'll say things where he equates himself with the Father. And they go, you can't do that. You can't claim to be God. Yet he does. And so, when he said, before Abraham was I am, he's using a divine title. And they respond with, let's get him. Anger. Yeah. Yeah. Big response. I wanted to add in Colossians, you know, Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says about Jesus, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Meaning, like the one with authority, rather than like, created, but "For by him all things were created," So, by Jesus. Right? So again, we see Lord of the Old Testament with Jesus here or together, one. "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him." And then it goes on to say, "in him all things hold together." So, this highly divine, like, he is God. And this is one of those passages that's helpful to connect Genesis 1, John 1, the Word in the beginning, and it's all together, God, three in one. That's good. That's really, really good. Yeah. Because there's also the same language in other places, I don't have a reference at the moment, referring to God with the general phrase of things were created by him and for Him. And that same language is used for Jesus. And I noticed recently—I'm on a roll here, no. Get it. But in Titus, it refers to Jesus our Savior, our Lord and Savior, and then God our Savior. It says this multiple times. And I always look for those connections because I like to see the clear Scriptural affirmation, like, God, Jesus, same titles. And I thought that was interesting. So, God our Savior, Jesus our Savior. Same, same title. Same. Yeah. Same verbiage. Same title, yeah. And the verbiage used in the account of Shadrach, Re. Shadrach, Remack. Windermere. RE/MAX. And John L. Scott. Couldn't think of another one. And Worcestershire sauce. Are you looking for your promised land? Call John L. Scott. But yeah, no. How Jesus also shows up in the Old Testament in the account of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, is, isn't it said that the fourth man in the fire appeared to be the Son of Man? Which is another title for Jesus. And so, another spot where it shows that Jesus is very much involved in the Old Testament as well. Yeah. And a lot of people think he was Melchizedek, potentially— Oh, right, right. —and that he walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. I mean, why not? Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. I like that in the Scripture, for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise, Trench says, "He is explaining also, by inference, the mystery of the Incarnation — that God The Son in becoming Man ceased not to be God, and that the Personality of Jesus is the Personality of God The Son." So really just portraying who he is as his own entity, and yet also the Trinity. Yep. And I also think it's kind of interesting that you see the kind of the full circle of Jesus in the Old Testament being part of what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah and those decisions, who he was in person, and then going to Revelation, we kind of go back to like, he's going to come back and with a sword, he's, fire coming from his mouth and— There's the judgment. —He's the same person in all of those. And it's just like we said, those different moments and experiences and. Well. And yeah, I think it's kind of interesting too, kind of going back to how we have this propensity to label God as different as, in the Old Testament than in the New Testament, and when Revelation is very much a part of the New Testament. And it's like the same individuals might forget that things get pretty intense when it all ends also, more intense than anything that was seen in even the Old Testament, including the Flood. So, yeah. Same God. Well, this page right here, you know, it divides them so much. Right? Yeah. To the point where we think we're talking about two totally separate. That little "New Testament" page in the Bible. This is not inspired, this page, right? Rip it out. Some guy put that in there. He was like, we need to separate these two portions of the Bible, New Testament, and everybody loses their mind. But, I mean, what Jesus did was obviously significant enough that we divide time, that's not to diminish that at all. But there's something about our understanding of it is that we are at risk of losing sight of how the two testaments are connected because of things like that, whether it's, for whatever reason, it's crept in. Yeah. It's something we should be on guard against because we might misunderstand things. Well, even the section titles. Yeah, exactly. That can also throw a little bit of a curveball, I think sometimes. It's nice to be able to, you know, put things nice and neat order, like, well, this is talking about this, and this is talking about that. It can be nice for referencing. It can be nice for just conceptualizing. But again, it wasn't, it was never written with titles and subtitles in each chapter also. So. Yeah. I think you can also see a bit of Jesus in his humanity when he flipped the tables. He was pouring out that wrath in that moment, but in a human scale, not a God scale. Yeah. And you know, that, if we look at Jesus being, you know, if not physically present, but at least in agreement with the Father at the burning bush with Moses, "the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses" you know, so we sometimes think that the turning of the tables, that might have been the first time Jesus got angry, but, well, not necessarily, you know. Absolutely not. You know, there's other examples where for the right reasons, that emotion could be present. Well, I was just thinking on some of the stuff that you guys were talking about here, and I think you posed this in the text you sent about questions, but I've been wondering, forgive me, if this is, like, out of line, but I just am like, are there distinctions then between Jesus and God in which they're different? I think you have to throw in the Holy Spirit too. Well, yeah, but I just mean for the sake of, like, there are some things that separately I was reading, not for this particular podcast, but just in my own studying, and like, literally the phrase, like, God cannot be tempted by evil, but then I know there is, Jesus was tempted at a certain point for, before, like, starting his earthly ministry. And so, I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I'm just like, how is it that God could not be tempted, but we know for a fact Jesus was tempted? And so, in my, like, very, like, linear thinking mind, I'm just like, how do I hold those two things together? And does that mean that there are distinctions between God and Jesus in, like, they are one, but I also know, like, just from how many years experience studying the Bible that, like, the Godhead like the triune Godhead is something we can't fully ever understand, you know? So, I'm just wondering if you guys had thoughts on that, or. I mean, when Jesus came to Earth, he put on flesh and blood, right? And it's flesh and blood that was tempted. Our flesh doesn't go to heaven with us. Our flesh wants to fall into temptation. His flesh was tempted. It wasn't the God, fully God side of him. It was the fully man. Yeah, that's kind of where I landed with it is like, is, it's, you know, because Jesus is fully God and fully man. If it was that fully man aspect of him that was tempted and the fully God aspect that was not overcome by temptation, but. And perhaps the God aspect of him was not tempted, but the man portion, if you can say it that way, the flesh was. Because there's another verse like, no temptation has overtaken you except that which is common to man. And so, it would have been common to him as well. It would have been a common temptation, that aspect of his existence. So. I mean, you could say the same thing about being hungry. Like, is God ever really hungry? You know? It was more of a fleshly thing then. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of, cause I wasn't meaning to go on a conversation about temptation. But it was more that broader, like, there was a difference here, at least at some point, but doesn't mean that there is a distinct difference between Jesus and God, that they are still one and the same. So. Yeah. Other differences, Jesus says the Father is greater than he is. Father is greater than I. That's an example. That other verse, the Father judges no one, but has given judgment to the Son. That's another difference. There's the people, the persons are different. Like in the book of Daniel when they're talking about the Ancient of Days and then another one like a Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days. There's two separate persons there, so. I think it's easier to flesh out God, the triune being of God when you see it in yourself. We are flesh, we are spirit, and we are soul, just as there's God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I think that, for me, to understand that better was to see myself as a triune being in that same regard. Yeah. Yeah. One, but three. Yeah. Each different roles, but the same. Like a holistic kind of. Yeah. There's another verse that kind of makes it difficult to understand it, how they're one and yet different is like some of those verses say, like, no one knows the, when the day or the hour will be, not even the angels in heaven, and then some translations, I think it says, nor the Son. Like, so how is it that Jesus would not know if they're one, right? And then I just thought, like, well, like they could, they can be in agreement, the Father and Son, that he would not know. Like, hey, I'm gonna throw a surprise party for you. Oh yeah, do that. Yeah. I don't want to know when. Like, surprise me. Yeah, okay. Like that can be a, they're in consensus about that. And it's generally like, okay, it's cool. This is when it is? All right. You know? Yeah. Not in opposition. Not in opposition, but like in agreement. Like, it'll be interesting to let some of that revelation unfold, perhaps. Made sense to me at least. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I'd like a surprise party sometime. Would you? We can plan that. But would you like to know? Kinda. Well, now I'm confused. It's not a surprise party then. I like to know that there would be a surprise party, just not when it's gonna happen. Oh, okay. You're always on guard? He does have a birthday coming up. I was just thinking that. I don't know what to get you for your birthday, so. If there. Now we do. A butter dish? What if we were to tell you there is a surprise party, but it never happens, and you just be forever excited? Oh. The best gift, really. Forever excited. Forever excited? Forever excited. Forever excited. It could be tomorrow. It could always be tomorrow. Oh, boy. Yeah. Another connection with Jesus in the Old Testament. There's famous prophecy by Daniel in chapter 7. Just before this, he's talking about kingdoms that will come, and we, you know, historians, scholars view them as specific kingdoms. But after that, then, you know, he has this vision. It's verse 13. "and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." So, after these earthly kingdoms would come one that appeared like a human, because son of man would mean human, but one that's got to be different because he's coming before the Ancient of Days and he's receiving dominion and glory and kingdom, and the people are serving him, and his kingdom shall never pass away. So, you have this like divine messiah, leader, king in the Old Testament, it's just kind of this shadowy prophecy—not shadowy in a negative way, but like, it only gives so many details—but sounds like a human that receives God-like response and whose kingdom never ends. And so, when Jesus takes this title—his most common title he refers to himself, is the Son of Man—is he just meaning I'm a dude? I'm a man? No, he's referring back to this. And then like in the end of John, when he's before Pilate, I believe, you know, he says, or to multiple people towards the end of the Gospels there, He says, like, and you're gonna see the Son of Man coming on the clouds and seated at the right hand of the Father. So, he's making a clear connection back to I'm that king that you've been waiting for. Right. Pretty, pretty intense and bold of him, but it's true. So. Right. He says it. That's very, very good. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an elaboration of that John 5:22, "'For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,'" And it's like, it ties into, to that statement right there, that whole Daniel scene in Daniel 7, right? Yeah. Which is interesting. So, yeah, I think I've even maybe mentioned this before on the podcast. An old quote by Billy Graham that says that it's God's job to judge, the Holy Spirit's job to convict, my job to love. And even when I remember hearing that back in the day, I always equated God's job to judge as God the Father. And, and obviously what we're talking about here is judgment is from Jesus. He's been given the authority to judge. And so, it's interesting also that, just that, which, I mean, which I think that Billy Graham knew that. Like, I don't think that it was a misunderstanding by him because Jesus is God. And doesn't it kind of change a little bit the dynamic of thinking of judgment of God when you think of it as Jesus, the one who was whipped and beaten and hung on the cross, as the one who judges? You know, like, for some reason, in my mind, it just appears different than the Father being the one who judges. I mean, he clearly says the Father doesn't judge. Right. It's the Son who judges, and he's the one who took the beating for us. And it's like, if you believe in him, you're good. Right. If you don't believe in him, he's the very one— Exactly. —who. Yeah. And it just seems like there's something to that. There's more of an intimacy. Yeah. A little bit. I guess there's a way to explain it. Well, and something about the way that you guys are saying that, it's making me think that the judgment isn't just like Jesus sitting on the throne judging us, but it is the very judgment that comes from whether or not we believe on him as the living God. Like, in a way, like, it falls, I don't want to say it falls to us, but like, if I believe that Jesus is who he says he is, then the judgment is that I now have eternal life with Him. But if opposite, I don't believe that, the judgment is like, he's the judge because, like, that entire punishment fell on him. Like, just like you're saying with the cross. Like, it isn't just a, because the way I think of judging, I think is like, he's like, that's bad, that's good. And then, but really, it's the judgment of what happens to us. Eternal life. And how does that change, if all, or help form, I guess, our view of who the Father is when we think of the Father sent His Son and Jesus was crucified and Jesus is the judge? Right? Right. And so how does that change our view—if we ever had a view of God the Father as a wrathful person—well, how does that change our view at all when it says the Father judges no one? He just, he offered his son. Right. You know, he gave. And it kind of, I think it takes the argument away a little bit that the Father was ever, like, how people just might describe angry. Right. An angry father. Right. I don't. Some. For some reason, people. And I can't pinpoint exactly where this thought comes from. I just see it pop up from time to time in conversations or maybe social media posts or just people kind of ranting about how, you know, this and that. But there, I'm just saying that there is a false perception of who the Father is or who God is. And then Jesus is saying that it's, He's a loving Father, that the Father is a loving person. And so, it just, somehow, it just, looking at his exact words, what he's saying here, and describing who God is, Himself included, it helps form, I think, and redefine our understanding of who God is and helps put away any false perceptions that just kind of creep in through culture, through tradition, through people just sharing their opinions, I suppose. Right. Well, and I think it should be an incredibly comforting, it should be incredibly comforting knowing that Jesus is the judge. Because, like, the way that we've set it up here in America is you're judged by a panel of your peers. Right? And Jesus came to earth, became one of us, became like us. And then he's the one that says, then that's going to judge us. It's almost as like, as if, like the plan was like, hey, I'm gonna make it so that the person that's gonna judge you is gonna have gone through everything you went through, and the person that's gonna judge, be the judge of you is going to have died for you. And it's like, it's the best judge that we could ever ask for because as there's a campaign, He Gets Us. Right? He understands us. And I would. And I think, like, in my mind, when I think of a judge, I think of someone who doesn't know me, somebody who's sitting with a gavel, that I've never met this person before, and yet I'm standing before him. And there's going to be this decision on whether or not I am free or I'm condemned with somebody that is, I've now just seen them for the first time. But that is not what the case is. The one who judge us, the one who's going to judge us is the one who understands us, that has lived the same life that we have, has experienced temptation and died for us. Couldn't ask for a better person to judge. So, we're saying at the great judgment, it will be the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit collectively judging each of us? Yeah. Or just God the Son? Whatever the text says. Referencing the Scripture you read earlier, right? Jesus as judge? Jesus as judge. The thought that I was thinking was, has it been that way all along? Since all of creation. All of the time, you know. Based on the text, you know. Right. They're one. And I don't know if there's any significance in. Or I guess I don't. I might not understand the full significance of the differentiation of the functions of the Godhead there. Right. Why it, you know. All, the fullness of the significance. Yeah. We're just a group of people doing a Bible study. Yeah. But I, but there's something there. We should probably take some time to look at the word judgment a little bit more closely because there's people who do not fall into, there's no condemnation, we know that, for those who are in Christ Jesus. So, there's aspects of these words that we're using that if we were to hash it out a little bit more, we could get a little more precise. I asked because I think there, I don't know where the Scripture is, but it references that God would pour out his wrath on those who don't accept his Son and what he did on the cross for us. And that wrath is judgment. Or they're already in wrath. They're already, already in that, positionally, they're already facing that wrath. So. Right. Because we're covered through Jesus, so the wrath is no longer on us. Right. Right, yeah. Yeah. Well. Likewise. Likewise. Likewise. Likewise. So, this is not totally like, it's more anecdotal, I guess. It's kind of an observation and just a thinking out loud if you guys had any additional thoughts on it. But the way that we kind of talking about this is like Jesus in relation to his Father. Obviously, that is the Scripture we're reading. And so, I just noticed that there, of all the relationships that they could have chosen to, like, paint this picture of Jesus's relationship to God, it was father-son relationship, when it could have been so many other things. And I think in some ways there are. But this seems to be like the biggest, like, identifying relationship between them and how when God is identifying this relationship between Him and His Son, the enemy, I feel like in our current climate, like, our current cultural climate, like, there is such an attack on our society at large, like, the biggest epidemic I think that there is, is fatherlessness. And it doesn't, to me, it just doesn't seem like, accidental or like, it just kind of is that way that this is, like, the primary functional relationship that God gave us to understand who he is. And that in our society at large, there is this breakdown of, like, the most vital relationship that kids—boys and girls—could have in their, like, growing and developing years. And so, I, I'm just like picking up on, like, what, how he's describing that the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing, etc. etc. And it kind of describes this relationship that they have and how, like, important that it is. And yet, like, to me, this doesn't seem like accidental, that this is also the breakdown of society right now. In my personal opinion, like, I just think that there's a lot of issues going on, but I think at the core, like, at the very, very, very root is this breakdown of, like, the biblical family and like, fathers especially leading their homes. And so, it's just something I noticed and picked up on and felt like this was like the, this is the podcast that we would talk about it, but, like, just wanted to bring that to light. So. Yeah. And there is, abuse is on the rise, isn't it? One in four now. Something really high. Well, it's weird that during COVID, like, that was one of the statistics that just shot up was abuse in the home. It's like, why would that be all of a sudden, the thing that, like, starts to skyrocket? So, if it shot up during COVID then, yeah, I mean, obviously it's been lurking in the shadows, but. But yeah, it's horrifying. It's terrible. Yeah. Terrible. And I think you were mentioning it before, Mandy, just the, our perception of God can certainly come down to, like, our perception of our earthly father. And so, if our earthly father is abusive, well, then that's going to be kind of how we feel like God's going to be. Right. If our earthly father is absent, well, then that's kind of going to be, well, God's probably absent, too. And so, yeah, I guess just to your point, it's like, Robyn, it's, I don't think it's by, I don't think it's just coincidence. The enemy attacks families, attacks the father-child relationship, attacks kids. All these things that are incredibly important, incredibly vital, that is very evident through Scripture that God loves. Right. And marriage and all these things that are so important. And you look around society and what are the things that are really struggling? Yep. Relationships. Fathers and their children. Marriages, family, kids, confusion. All these things are at play right now. Manhood and womanhood. Right. Huge hit on those two things. Yeah. Can I connect to that? Likewise. And this will do an Old Testament, New Testament connection as well. So, last verse of the Old Testament or last two verses. So, it's Malachi 4. And we know this from a New Testament perspective, he's prophesying about John the Baptist coming, but. "'Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.'" It's like last words before then, like hundreds of years of silence before Jesus shows up and John the Baptist shows up is, I'm gonna turn the hearts of the fathers to their kids and the kids to their fathers. And so then, it's not shocking that the opposite of that is what the enemy wants, is broken relationships. And specifically, it says fathers, like, which is interesting. And I don't think that's just using a masculine term to refer to parents. I think it would say parents. Right. But then we see that John the Baptist shows up in that role, preparing people's hearts, and that a key factor is that parental love and even towards the parents. So, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And then it says the opposite in the New Testament, doesn't it, where father will turn against son and mother against daughter? Oh, like Jesus saying he will divide? In the end days, in the end days, just there will be such a divide in families that we're seeing today. It said it would come. Well, and the message that Jesus brings, it does cut through everything, that there's going to be people that agree with him and then don't, it's going to create division for sure. And has. Yeah. Yeah. There's a cool verse in, if I can say cool, it's really cool. Super cool. It's rad. Kool with a k, k-o-o-l. That's about as cool as it gets. That's copyrighted. But Ephesians 5, Paul says, "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children." And oftentimes, young children will just mimic what they see their parents doing. And right before that, it's, you know, Paul's describing like life in Christ, even right before that, saying, forgive "one another, as God in Christ forgave you." So, kind of a likewise. As you've been forgiven now forgive. Imitate "God, as beloved children. And walk in love," and I think that idea that he's calling us to, God through Paul, is telling the Christian church to imitate God like Jesus did as beloved children, just as Jesus did. And I think it's important to think about the application of like, what do we do likewise? At the beginning, I mentioned the idea that like, this could radically change everything in our life, even our eternity. Because if we choose to follow the world or our flesh or what the enemy would have us follow, we reap corruption, right? We reap death. But the opposite is to follow the Spirit. What is God doing? And that's how we reap eternal life. Galatians 5 and 6 touch on those topics, that these things are in opposition, our flesh and the Spirit. And so, if we do likewise to what we see in the world or what we just go with our gut and our flesh, we're going to go down the path of destruction. Versus if we spend time in the Word, we see—what, how does, what does God want? How does he think? What is his heart? What are we commanded to do? And we follow likewise, we see the fruit of that. We reap what we sow. Right? And so, how a simple word, when we apply it to our life, it's going to make dramatic differences. I love that. Where we end up. Yeah. Yeah, it's what are we following? And, and yeah, to your point, it's like likewise. It is such a small word, but we veer towards the things that we are focused on. And if it's not Christ, it's going to be something. So, I love that. It's like, yeah, we're going to lean, wherever our focus is, that's what we're going to become, that's going to be, that's going to be our likewise. Like, what's your likewise? That's something that I think we could ask ourselves, for sure, is what is our likewise, the thing that we're imitating or the thing that we're becoming? And maybe that's one way of looking at it, is not necessarily like, what have I become or what am I becoming, but what's the thing that's either like, on my mind the most or what's the thing that I see slowly that I'm turning into? I think that that's a really interesting way of looking at it from a spiritual standpoint, but, like, psychological standpoint. Are you the same person that you were a year ago? And if not, how have you changed? And what are the metrics for is it a good change or a negative change? That could be a really good way just to look at what, what your likewise is. Yeah. I love that. I think to piggyback off what you were saying with kids and families, is that I think that the push is to have television be what is your likewise, right? And what you're imitating. And I got onto a streaming service one day and there was all these shows with teenagers and witchcraft. I mean, tons and tons. All these new shows. And I think there's just a huge push for that to be the imitation, to be following this path. Right. Yeah. Well, I definitely remember there was time before I, especially before I knew the Lord and even some time after, like there, I just thought that what I saw in television was what the norm was, like that somebody set the standard of what's normal. And so, like, if you saw it on TV or movies or wherever, in culture, like, that seemed to be the unanimous agreement that that's what should be. Right. Until—and then, and there, to some degree that might be true—until you are like in a relationship with the Lord and you decide, I want different than this. Because if you think about it, a lot of what we are, what are, we consider our likewise is, are considered pretty radical these days because they're so contrary to what culture is celebrating. So. Yeah. So, one kind of a different type of thought on this topic. So, verses 19 or just verse 19, it says, "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.'" So, there's something called the omnipotence paradox, and I just wanted to throw in there really quick. And so, it's this thought that's circulated for a long time of when it comes to an all-powerful being, can an all-powerful being create a rock that is too heavy for him to hold? And if he can create that, then he's not all-powerful because he can't lift it. And if he can't create it, cannot create it, then he's, he can't create something. Right? And so, this paradox. And so, I think it's interesting that in this Scripture it says, "the Son can do nothing of his own accord," and so, there was, this could be this thought, like, well, okay, so does that mean that Jesus can't do something? That God can't do something? And the fallacy of that is, if it's logical, that's what it's, that's what we're talking about. It's like God works in logic, doesn't work in illogical matters. And so, there's plenty of things that God cannot do. He can't lie, he can't sin. These are things that he can't do. And so that doesn't mean that he is less than, or he's not omnipotent. We can't make a square circle. That's not logical. And so just as kind of a clarifying element, yes, there are some things that God cannot do, but it's within the realm of logic in which he can't do it because it doesn't make sense. Right. It would defy who he is. Right. Yeah. All right, great. Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of likewise. Yeah, I just, I'll just go back to, I just love the fact that the more you look into just the idea of God being the same yesterday, today and forever, and just having a conversation about how the character of God hasn't changed, nothing has changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament to today. It's a very comforting thing to know that the same God that delivered the Israelites from Egypt is the same God that healed the man at Bethesda is the same God that can do a miracle in your own life. And I just think that that should be a very calming thing for everybody then, yeah, just his intimacy, how he showed his love for us, while yet we were sinners, Christ died for us, that the God that we might label as angry and mean is the same God that sent his Son to die for humanity so that we could have relationship with him. Very powerful. And I just, I love that. You know, going back to what you said before, I think it would be interesting to put into practice the timing of God's timing in our lives and how we get so amped up about where are you, God? Think of how long he waited to put Jesus on the earth to do those things. And he waited in his own timing. But a closing thought for me would be, you know, I think it's so easy to read Scripture, to read through the Old Testament and see the wrath come and the wrath come and the wrath come without really taking into consideration it was the thousand years. Because you read through the thousand years and suddenly you're at wrath. Right? You didn't walk it out in real life. And whereas in the New Testament we look at it and see Jesus healed and Jesus healed and Jesus healed. And I think that, back to the timing, you know, I think it's worth really taking a step back and considering as we're reading Scripture, that there was this huge blanket of time that God put in between this is what's going to happen and this is what's actually happening as we read it instead of jumping to wrath, jumping into the realistic nature of what happened in those days. Yeah, I guess my final thought would be just kind of being thankful that, obviously being thankful that Jesus came, but that we have records of what Jesus was like. We have the Old Testament as well to see God, his relationship with Israel and the encouraging stories, the judgment, all the things. But we have this picture of Jesus and then we have the rest of the New Testament with other believers trying to live that out, trying to do likewise. And they do it imperfectly. We see that in the Gospels and beyond, but we have those examples to read about and apply to our lives and grateful for that because otherwise we would be pretty lost if we're just going with our guts or our opinions or, yeah, without the word, we would be, we'd be struggling. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I was going to say something pretty similar to that. Like, I think just having the Bible in this day and age, and then, like, I just think we kind of take it for granted that we have this record of Jesus showing us who God was as a Father. And so, my final thought would be along that line of just really leaning into, I am able to see who God is because of how Jesus walked on this earth and that we have this, like, record of exactly who he is, and that shows me who God is. And so, leaning into that gratefulness and like, I have access to the Father. So. Yeah. Yeah, on that thought of access to the father. In John 14, in verse 6, it says, this is just before Philip said, show us, "'Lord, show us the Father,'" Jesus had said, in verse 6, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" And then in verse 19, "'Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.'" Verse 20, "'In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.'" I think it's interesting how he says, I'm in my Father. You are in Me, and I'm in you. He doesn't say you're in the Father. He says, you're in Me and I'm in the Father. He kind of clarifies that, He's like the, He's like the adapter. Right. If you want to come up with an analogy or something like that. You need Jesus to get to the Father. I mean, to bring us into relationship with the Father. With Him, yes. But let's not forget that he was saying that, you know, I'm the gate, you know. Well, beyond the gate is the Father. A gate for what? A gate for what? You know, keep on, keep on going to the fullness of what, of why he came, what he, what is it that he gave us access to? Yeah. It's. It is the Father. And so, I think he was excited to say, like, I've made a way to have you be in the Father through me. Yeah. Like, that's why he was talking about him so much, right? I mean, so I think it's important to keep that in mind that if he was excited about it, I mean, we should be excited about it. That's the, it's in the words that he said. And so. So, I think it's important to review that and be mindful of that. I think that we lose that because in our walk of faith, we always have access to God, right? But in his day, you had to bring a sacrifice to get to God. Or even today some people go to another man to get access to God. So, I think it's easier for us to take that for granted because we've always had that full access. Right. Yeah. We know no other way. That's good to take a moment and really reflect that that is actually really beautiful and amazing. How awesome is our God. Yeah. Yeah. Well, great discussion, everybody. Thanks for joining us for this episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Season 2 in the books. Heyo. Hey. We look forward to another episode later. Take care everybody. We'll be back. Likewise. Likewise. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. The ESV text may not be quoted in any publication made available to the public by a Creative Commons license. The ESV may not be translated in whole or in part into any other language.