Episode Transcript
Words are important. Not too controversial statement, but the day is young. Our ability to communicate largely depends on them. But words alone only make up half the equation of a message. The better, more attractive half is meaning. Because without meaning, words are like a man with two missing index fingers: pointless.
Without meaning there's no ability to communicate and really no sense in trying. That is, unless you're in a Thailand 7-Eleven trying to buy deodorant. I think we all can agree that toiletries are the unsung heroes of any trip, domestic or international. To paraphrase Commissioner Gordon, "They're our silent guardians, our watchful protectors. They're the heroes we deserve, but not the ones we need." Until we do. Until I did.
The year was 2007 and I was in Bangkok during the hot season. Just kidding. Every season is the hot season. With an average temperature of 92° and an average humidity of 82%, losing a toothbrush or a comb is forgivable. Losing deodorant, however, not so much. So there I stood, Baht in hand, before the young, Thai-speaking employee. I asked a one-word question in English:
"Deodorant?"
And that was about it. Shortest conversation of my life. All the young woman could do was politely smile—a kind response considering some foreigner just walked in, looked her in the face,
made a sound, and stood there expecting something for his troubles.
Still, I really hoped "plan a" had worked. I didn't like "plan b." "Plan b" it involves charades and I don't like charades. But the silence between us wasn't getting any quieter. So I begrudgingly grabbed an imaginary stick of deodorant from some nearby air and began to apply it first to my right armpit and then my left. I really do hate that the universal language is mime.
The young lady put her hands over her mouth and giggled as she hurried out from behind the counter to a nearby aisle. She pointed to two columns of deodorants. This was like looking at a restroom sign at a seafood restaurant: "Starfish" or "seashells."
I decided trying to mime "male" wasn't in my best interest, because whatever the smell came from that little deodorant stick, it was a guaranteed upgrade. Plus, spending the night in a Thai jail didn't sound like much fun. I've heard it's even worse than charades.
I wish words and their meaning were only problematic when traveling abroad, but sadly, this isn't the case. I'm sure I'm not the only one who in recent years has started to feel like we're living in the communication equivalent of a Bangkok 7-Eleven, where words are spoken but meaning is lost. But unlike a foreign exchange, where a word or a phrase becomes lost in translation, it's us as individuals who are finding ourselves lost in reinterpretation, an effort by some to rewrite the past
and control our present. But why this effort?
Author Spencer Klavan writes, "concepts like 'democracy' and 'liberty,' if rightly used, command a reverence that arises naturally from their true meanings.... Since totalitarians cannot produce such triumphs, they must ape them, using the cover of falsely redefined words to lend themselves an air of undeserved gravity."
George Orwell would have agreed. In his 1946 essay, Politics and the English Language, he wrote, "Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes. Now it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer." Or as psychologist B.F. Skinner stated, "Going out of style isn't a natural process, but a manipulated change which destroys the beauty of last year's dress in order to make it worthless."
But the manipulation of meaning isn't a method of control solely wielded by narcissist politicians and tyrants. It's also a method of control used by the enemy. But I repeat myself. Satan cannot create, he can only distort. And like other tyrants, the use of distortion is his means; destruction and power is his end.
American novelist Nathaniel Hawthorne once said, "Words - so innocent and powerless as they are, as standing in a dictionary, how potent for good and evil they become in the hands of one who knows how to combine them." Which begs the questions: To whose combinations are we listening? To whose meanings are we following? Because the enemy—whether it be foreign, domestic, or spiritual—wants to confuse, manipulate, and destroy. And we must respond. But how? To combat efforts to confuse and distort, we must seek truth, and we must speak truth. Both are necessary. Because truth in a vacuum is simply silence disguised.
Martin Luther King, Jr. once said, "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." So, let us speak truthfully, and let us do so boldly, and let us use our words, and do so precisely. Because meaning is valuable and words are anything but cheap. At the end of the day, whether we find ourselves fighting for meaning in the sacred halls of democracy, or fighting to understand in the aisles of a mini mart, this fact remains the same: It's not only about the word used, but how it's defined.
Welcome to the pilot episode of The Defined Podcast with Dr. Jon et al. Today, the et al is Mandy and myself, I am Chris, your host for the day. We are joined with Robyn as well, and Rogelio.
Let's just go around the room. Who are these people? Who are we and what's our background? I'm joined with Dr. Jon Troll, my brother.
How you doing?
How are you doing?
Good.
Jon, you are a psychologist.
Yes, sir.
Okay. How long have you been a psychologist?
A psychologist since 20--, well, doctorate 2014 and then psychologist since 2019. Private practice for four years, working at a clinic three years before that. So, yeah, I've been doing this for about, yeah, close to seven years.
Okay. Yeah. And you studied right here in Washington state at Northwest University.
Go Eagles, I think.
I think. Yeah.
Nothing like school pride.
He thinks so.
We're not sure.
Commuter student.
Commuter. Commuter.
What a cheer. "Go Eagles, I think."
We hope.
Sue Heck would be proud.
Also with us today is Mandy Michaels of Providence Heights.
Otherwise known as et al.
Et al.
Yes, one of the et als.
One of the et als.
Sounds like a band name.
And a life coach. And very involved in Reach Ministry as well here in the Seattle area.
Yep. The fourth in charge. Watch out.
Fourth in charge.
Power.
Out of 3,000 is not bad.
Oh, yeah. I'm impressed.
Right?
Color me impressed.
And Mandy, I believe, is another Eagles fan.
Oh yeah.
Is that right?
No, still not from Philly.
Oh, you're not from Philly. Sorry.
Steelers.
Ah, she's from Pittsburgh. Okay.
Yep, technically I'm from Virginia, but, you know, I grew up in Pittsburgh, so it counts.
You are an onion.
All over.
You make me cry pretty often. But you are a life coach in Seattle.
Yep. Or Bellevue.
Bel-le-vue
Also with us today. Rogelio Navarro, LMHCA.
Yes.
Dash A.
Dash A.
I don't know what that means.
Really, it's Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate, and I've been licensed since 2020.
Excellent. Excellent. Also credentials from Northwest University.
That's correct. Yeah, locally.
Go Eagles, I think.
I think so. I think. Actually, I know. I didn't really see them play. I still love them.
They're football, right?
Sports.
I think they got a volleyball team. Maybe. Maybe. Go sports.
If you're a sport fan, this may not be the show for you.
And also with us today, Robyn Nelson.
That's me.
Secondary education. Oh, I'm sorry. Special education.
Yes.
Wrong s-word.
Not the worst.
Special education.
Yep.
Excellent.
From Everett. Watch out.
That's right. I hail from Everett, the north side of Everett. Oh, wait. All sides of Everett.
Watch out. Be kind to her.
Well, welcome, everybody. We hope to be somewhat entertaining, somewhat educational.
Who are you?
Well, I need no introduction.
Clearly.
But I hold an MBA. Also educated at Northwest University and
Go Eagles, I think.
Go Eagles, I think.
Got our first merch.
Involved in the local church, a small group host for a time, and hoping to continue more or less through means of a podcast. Basically, we hope to bring some clarity and purpose and meaning in this world. Some would say we're living in austere times. We would hope to do this Bible study and help bring some clarity to this world and have some good application for life. Today we're looking at the word "defined." It's sort of our, I guess you could call it the thesis statement of the podcast here. We want to not lose the meaning of words, not lose the meaning of, of the intent of scripture, and stay grounded into what God's word is for us and know exactly how to apply it to have actual change and purpose in our lives. So, I just want to read our scripture of the day here 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, reading out of the ESV, starting in verse 7 through verse 11. "If even lifeless instruments such as the flute or the harp do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and
none is without meaning. But if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker a foreigner to me."
And of course, this context is some would say, speaking in tongues is the context. But even the greater context, if you back it all up to the beginning of the chapter, it's talking about edifying the church and saying things that will, as verse 6 says, bring "some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching." So we want to build up the church here. We want to do things, speaking of the church worldwide, say things that are, that will build each other up and give us strength in these times. So anyway, any top line thoughts? Doctor Jon, what's your vision for the show? And on the topic of "defined," what are we looking at today?
Yeah, I know for sure. So really the hope moving forward with this podcast, and each time we gather it really is to study the word. So that is for sure reading the Bible and kind of doing a deep dive into that. So where this first episode is about the word "defined," and kind of chatting about the importance of defining words—understanding, really ultimately, truth—moving forward, we'll be talking about going through the book of John and then moving forward through there. So really just doing a slow kind of deep dive into each chapter. And so, yeah, just taking one word at a time. Well, I mean, one word from a selected group of reading. So, and my hope is really, it's really talking about what truth is and the importance of understanding what truth is. Cause we're living in a society and a culture where truth is becoming, it seems to be becoming more difficult to come by. And so just really understanding what truth is, and we know what truth is ultimately, from the word of God, that is the ultimate truth. And so I just think that's a great place to start the conversation and to get some wisdom and knowledge from the One that put us here.
That's right. Yeah. Excellent. Top line thoughts, Mandy?
I would advocate that not only are we trying to get away from, get to redefining words, we're actually trying to take away definition altogether. Where up is down and down is up. You're actually just removing that altogether and don't even have a definitive direction in things anymore. You hear people throwing around words that, I mean, the meaning is so clear, but they throw them around as if they're just recasting them into a new light and have no meaning after that. And when you have no meaning in words, you really take away from scripture and all that scripture has to tell us, because scripture is truth, right. It is ultimate truth and the truth that we stand on. And when you try to take the meaning out of the words that are in here, you try to take the meaning out of truth in scripture.
Yeah. It's almost like relative. Yeah.
All right, top line thoughts, Rogelio?
Yeah, you know, It's kind of hard, because when talking about truth, obviously, whenever I talk about truth, it's, of course, there is an essential truth, and yet there's always sort of, like, what happens on the inside and what the listener hears on the outside. So, like, truth, it has some level of subjectivity. Not to say it is totally subjective, but it can be, in a sense of what, I mean, might not be what the other person hears. And so I definitely want to be careful to not sort of think of it as, like, in terms of my words, that they really are truth because they might come out wrong or the other person might hear them wrong. But I think that the search for truth is an ongoing focus.
Exactly. Robin, top line thoughts on the topic of defined.
I think kind of like what Mandy was saying with. It's not even like that we're redefining things, but, like, we're removing definitions altogether. And I think, like, broader
perspective is people trying to, like, in the name of inclusivity or whatnot it's "your truth is your truth," like, "do you" and all that stuff. But the problem with that is that it, I think in an effort to unite all of us so that we can all just accept everybody's truth, we're actually creating a lot of disunity because we no longer have like a common language, we no longer have a common understanding of what something means. And so we can't actually unite on that front anymore. Because if, you know, like, if Mandy says to me, "that triggers me," and I don't understand what that means to her. She's just saying, like, "oh, I'm triggered by this," and I don't understand that, then we are no longer sharing the same experience. And so I think that actually, this idea that everyone has their own truth or everyone has their own idea of truth is, ironically, doing the opposite of what we're intending to do, which is to bring unity together.
What are some symptoms of not having a firm grasp of the truth? I'd imagine anxiety, depression. There's got to be some root. In your own day to day interactions with people in your various places of work, ministry, the people that you interact with—whether they be patients or clients or students—what are some symptoms of the lack of definition, the lack of truth today? And do you see that on a daily basis? And as you work with these people, how does that remedy come into play as truth is presented to them and hopefully brings them some more peace and guidance? So what are some thoughts on that topic?
Yeah, I mean, I can kind of get the ball rolling with it. One of the things that I encounter a lot of in my practice is anxiety. And using the cognitive models are which basically, "thoughts lead to emotions," "emotions lead to behavior." And so if there's an inaccurate interpretation of what's going on or there's a wrong definition of what just
happened, that will create, or has the potential to create, anxiety. Right. And so maybe it's somebody—kind of a very, very mild example—if somebody doesn't say "hello" at work, and usually that person does say hello, and the thought is, "they must be mad at me. I must have done something wrong." That can start to lead to some worry, insecurities, uncertainties, and then we start to maybe ruminate, "what can I do different next time? Why is he or she mad at me?" And so there's clarity, clarity is so important when it comes to many facets of our life. And so that's something I see quite a bit in my day-to-day at work, is a little bit of a misunderstanding of perhaps what's happening. And so understanding what actually happened, what is the truth of the situation, is something that's pretty common in my experience.
Yeah. And coming at it with a somewhat humble spirit, I think, too, is very important to not think that you know all the answers right away. I'm looking at this passage here. Supplemental scripture here. Matthew, chapter 9, ESV, verse 13. Jesus says, "Go and learn what this means," that's the first part of it. Go and learn. He goes on to say, "'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." But his audience there is the Pharisees, people who had already supposedly studied, already thought they knew the scripture. And Jesus tells them, go and learn what it means. Go find out. Go research. Go to the source. Find the intent of the message, and figure that one out. You know, do the work, do the, put some effort into, and set your own assumptions aside and your own perhaps arrogance, or know-it-all attitudes aside. And in a spirit of humility, find out what God is saying. So.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. To be a student, and you have to be somewhat humble, because you have to admit that you don't know. You don't know things.
Mandy, on the streets of Seattle, as you do ministry. Is it a chicken and the egg kind of a thing? Did the lack of truth begin, maybe a false understanding? Did that lead to paranoia, which leads to worse things in some of these people? Or do you think, did that have a role to play in any current situations there?
For a few. I think that the underlying symptom that I see is confusion and confusion, and breeds a lot of fear because you don't have any kind of truthful foundation to stand on. And the confusion is in a place where people really, you ask them questions and they can't even answer the questions, because the confusion is so complete that there's literally nothing to stand on, no ground to stand on, solid ground to stand on in whatever their truth in the moment is. And I think that breeds a lot of fear in them, and some maybe turn to medicating themselves for that. But I think that overall, just that confusion, like, "I can't explain why I believe what I do, I can't explain why my life is defined by this. I can't explain why," asking the simplest of questions and they falter, and then they kind of lose that identity piece because they can't explain it. And there's no truth, really, no foundational truth for it, which kind of makes it worse, but also better because it makes them think about what they believe and what they have sold themselves into and what they've bought as their truth. And so it kind of helps them walk into the truth when you shine a light on the lies that they're believing.
Yeah. As I was taking that in, I realized there is confusion. And I think sometimes I have to be careful because, you know, speaking for myself, I know that I can have, you know, maybe half-truths of understanding or, you know, just everybody's own human limitations, how sometimes we, I think, we're in search for truth, but sometimes we really can misunderstand things, and a lot happens in miscommunication and between people and relationships. I might say something, and what I think I'm saying on the inside might be totally different to what another person is hearing on the outside. And, yeah, so I love this search for
truth. And at the same time, I'm sort of conscious that part of the nature of truth is there's also kind of an experiential side of it that in a way, each person's experience is real, and part of what happens inside of us is part of our own true perception of reality. And so I think I'm just. I try to be more sensitive about how other people take things or how we're all a little bit different and we're all wired different. And so it's okay to have different, I suppose, experiences of a truth, even though, like, yeah, I do believe in a truth, in a spiritual truth and the Holy Spirit of truth. I also don't want to reduce it to just, like, an intellectual understanding. I realize there's more to it. There's a very personal dimension of relating to the truth. And so I think it's, of course, important for us to be sensitive and respectful of one another. But there is definitely truth that we need to dig into here.
That's good.
Yeah, I think I'm seeing a lot among my students, especially is there's this real—I think it's great that we've advocated so much, especially in our nation, for, like, more informed, like, mental health services and like, that emotional well-being. But it's kind of gotten to the point where now feelings are considered truth rather than truth is truth. And while feelings are valid, like, they are based on our perception of something. And so, like, our feelings are informed by our thoughts, which are informed by our perception of something. So if our perception of something was wrong. Like, I walk in the morning and I say, "Hello, good morning, Jon." He doesn't say something back, and then I'm like, oh my gosh, he hates me. Then I have all these feelings suddenly of like rejection or whatever. But my reality is not actually my reality, it's just my perception of something that happened. And that is what I feel like is going on a lot with our students, by and large, is like there's a huge mental health crisis. And I feel like the problem is—I feel like, I feel like, I feel like—is that there isn't, we are not informing them of the truth of circumstances anymore, but that we are almost overly validating feelings that are based in lies or deception or whatnot. And so, yeah, that's one of the symptoms that I'm seeing with my kiddos.
Yeah, well, and if I didn't say hi to you in the morning, it is probably because I hate you. Just so we're clear.
Noted.
Just so we're clear.
We're a very loving podcast.
No, but that's a cognitive distortion is "feelings is fact." And so that's one of the very, very common ones where instead of thoughts lead to emotions, emotions leads to thoughts. And so if emotions lead to thoughts, then we're basically basing our reality off of how we're feeling. And like Robyn just said, that's like, that's never going to end well.
It's interesting that I hear the word, you know, the word "truth," and I wonder if even that word, some people are—they're substituting experiences as—they're defining truth by the word "experience." And this is a Bible study podcast, so we understand that Jesus is the Truth and Jesus is the Word, and these are names or descriptions of who He is. And so I just kind of think, like in, I don't know, in math, in geometry, there's those substitution things, you know, just swap the word "Jesus" for the word "truth," you know, and a lot of answers, I think, in society can be found to problems by making that substitution there.
Yeah.
As people are inserting other things in for the word truth, their personal experiences, their perceptions, that could go a long way in fueling problems and creating another subset of pseudo-solutions that bring on their own problems. When in fact, if we study how to apply, inserting Jesus into those truth searches, those searches for truth, and I feel like it's sort of an ambiguous task at the moment, but I'm sure as we dig in and dive in more, we'll discover exactly what that means and how to apply it to various situations here.
Slowly by slowly.
Slowly by slowly.
Or little by little.
That's our truth. Slowly by slowly.
Tomato, tomato.
Well, I want to circle back to this 1 Corinthians, chapter 14. I'm glad that Paul says in verse 19, "Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." And I know he's talking about speaking in tongues, but I'm glad he set the bar pretty low at five words. Hopefully in this half-hour or so podcast, we can eke out at least five words that are useful for instruction here. So let's start there.
That'd be great.
And build on this pilot episode from that point.
Five word.
Can we do it?
Surely there's five words we can string together that'll be helpful.
Invite our listeners on this journey with us. And may we somehow all be
Wordy?
Wordy.
That's right.
Loquacious? Get it in there.
Bravo.
Wow!
Go for the big words, guys.
But I suppose one last little thing that kind of came to my mind too is the idea of define is like, how do we find our reality, how do we find our experience, but also how do we define ourselves? And I think that's something also where I've just seen a lot also over the years that I've worked in counseling, how someone defines themself, it is make or break, that's for sure. And so also through the description of the word, that's also how we can understand "who we are," is—as the cliche goes—when we know "whose we are." And that's going to be something I think is going to be fun to unravel and take apart, too.
Yeah, maybe cliche, but it's true.
Most cliches are.
Take that to the bank.
Well, that wraps it up for us. I just want to say "hello" to everybody.
"Good morning."
"Good morning." Yes, "good morning" to everybody.
And in case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night.
And may we all think well of each other.
Except for Jon, apparently.
If don't say "hi" to you, you know why.
Until next time. Thank you for watching.
Take care, everybody.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to, like, share, subscribe, and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
The ESV text may not be quoted in any publication made available to the public by a Creative Commons license. The ESV may not be translated in whole or in part into any other language.
