Episode Transcript
Well, welcome to another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists draw from their experiences in coaching, education, management, ministry, psychology, and other backgrounds in order to seek hope and timeless biblical truths amidst the challenges and uncertainties of today's austere times.
I'm your host, Chris. Welcome once again, Dr. Jon. Welcome. Thank you for another episode here. The other et als today are once again, Mandy, Rogelio, and Robyn. Welcome everybody.
Thanks.
Good to be here.
Well, today we're looking at the word "baptize," and our scripture of the day is John, chapter 1, verses 29-34 reading out of the ESV.
"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.' And John bore witness: 'I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.'”
And then there's a parallel account of this in the book of Matthew, out of the ESV.
“'I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.' Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, 'I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?' But Jesus answered him, 'Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'”
And then one more passage of scripture I want to read out of the book of Acts, where Paul kind of summarizes this time, at another time. Later on in Acts, chapter 19, verses 1-7.
"And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' And they said, 'No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.' And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized?' They said, 'Into John's baptism.' And Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.' On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. There were about twelve men in all."
So, we've got, several different words keep kind of popping up in these accounts here. We see baptism, we see repentance, we see believe, we see the Holy Spirit, and then we see witness.
And it's kind of like a bundle. Like all these things are kind of in some way supposed to all happen at the same time, and they don't always all happen at the same time. But I think God's intent is kind of like for them all to, if not all at once, at least eventually.
All five of those things.
The bundle. The blessed bundle, if you will.
Anyway, thoughts on that concept of the blessed bundle?
The blessed bundle. Grow your bundle.
I never really thought about that before. That is interesting.
Well, reading the scripture about baptism thing that stood out was just the concept of fire. That was kind of the thing that kind of struck me and I thought it was interesting that—and maybe this is for more conversation—because, you know, there was these three different kind of accounts of baptism and the different words that were used because fire wasn't used in all of them.
It was only used in the, was it the, the, was it Matthew?
Matthew mentioned fire, yeah.
Yeah. And it's interesting, like in the upper room in Acts, they received the Holy Spirit and tongues of fire came on them. And so, I thought that was always kind of interesting too, because fire, it seems like in the Bible it designates God's presence. So, you have, like the burning bush, you have as the Israelites were wandering in the desert led by fire. And I just, to me, that's kind of an interesting bit just the fire because it's all consuming and it's like, it's like baptism in water, but different. It's like John baptized in water, which is, it's a submersion, it's a consuming thing, in a sense, but fire, it's a different type of consumption. And so, it does burn up everything. And everything that's not pure, it will get burnt up. And so, if that's not—if we don't have that, if we don't have Christ, if we don't have the Holy Spirit, baptized in the Holy Spirit—then I guess my thought is, so then our sin that remains, it will be consumed by the holiness of God.
And, I mean, that's just kind of what came to my mind.
Yeah. An all-consuming fire that, you know, something does remain after the fire. It's something usually the Bible talks about gold is what remains, something refined by the fire, something that has passed through the testing or the trial, the cleanliness, cleansing of the fire. And so, yeah, there's a purpose for it, and the purpose is to get rid of all the unclean things. So that something that God is making in you does remain.
Actually, that stood out to me as well. The Holy Spirit. I think he said, you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit and fire in Matthew. And I'm just thinking back to when I was baptized by water and then I was baptized later in the Holy Spirit.
I'm curious what that looks like for me. Like, I'm kind of asking myself, what does it look like for me to have been baptized by fire, and what does that look like in my life? And can I define a time or a moment when that happened for me? Or was it simultaneous, like you said, as a package?
I can say definitively I was baptized in water, and later I was baptized by the Holy Spirit. So, for me, it was in two different timeframes.
Right.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
I was struck by how John the Baptist says, I'll baptize you with the water for repentance. Because the idea of repentance and then being, well, receiving the Holy Spirit or somehow being in that kind of friendship with God, you were just talking about, like, God's holiness, like, being all-consuming. But it's interesting to me how there's kind of a—it seems like there's this kind of two-way street, two-way street of just repentance and then receiving God. There's something about that, because I think being forgiven by God also does require this kind of, like, posture of repentance. And I just, I just find that connection very interesting because I feel like God's always there to forgive and to, like, we can receive—the Holy Spirit can be received by, I think, just anybody with, you know, sincere, sort of like a sincere heart. And, you know, we all have weaknesses and failings and all that. But I think repentance is just speaking to me in that whole, as like a, the first thing that John the Baptist says.
Yeah. Oh, you have something?
I was just going to say, there's a woman we heard about who, I can't remember what country she's in. She's a missionary, and she's been praying over people who are addicted to whatever you, typically drugs. And she's been praying for them to receive the Holy Spirit. And they have walked away clean. Like that, clean. And the addiction is gone. And I just, I'm thinking about that cleansing fire, kind of stuck on that, and the idea that that does burn away those things in our lives that are not from God. And I'm wondering what part that plays and that testimony that she has.
Yeah. And if sometimes it is an instant thing or if it is over the course of time where things are removed, things are burnt up, things are taken out of our lives that aren't supposed to be there. For some, yeah, maybe it is instantaneous where it's just like, this is no longer a thing. This was a huge struggle, and now it's not. For others, it's perhaps it's a journey where it's little by little, things continue to be refined until you get to the point where you're closer to how God intended us to be initially.
I think you saying that even it being a process there.
When I think of baptized, I think back to my youth group days, and I feel like every youth pastor under the sun talked about how the word baptized, the root word is Greek. And then it's, the definition comes from this idea of, like, taking a pickle and putting it in water and vinegar and then it coming out as a pickle. And so it's like this process of going in as one thing and then coming out as another thing. And in my mind, all I can think is like, that is a process. And I know many of us have experienced the Lord and experienced a baptism and then have come out on the other side being very different than we were. And there's also, like, what you guys are talking about with being baptized and that cleansing us of even addiction, that can be a process over time. And I think that's been a lot of my experience with some things. Like, I met Jesus at 15, and there was a lot of things that, like, my life was changed in an instant, and now there's things like 20 years later, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm finally, like, I'm finally delivered of depression and seeing that how God, I feel, like, baptized me over a course of many years and whatnot.
Speaking—oh, go ahead.
Well, I guess one other thought.
The comparison of water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
So, baptism is kind of. It's not kind of. Baptism is, it's a reenactment of the death, burial, and resurrection. Right. And so, what is dying? Because something is dying in that moment. So, the man is dying. The old man is dying away, making place for a new. And so, then it's what is or who is the new person on top? Who's the one that is actually at the top of the hierarchy? If it's ourselves that are in charge before we accept Christ, then it is He that's in charge afterwards. And so, to die to ourselves is to then put our allegiance coming under the authority of Christ. And so, I just think it's interesting because it's, it's such an important bit—the water baptism means so much—but then, like, the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it's like, again, it goes back to all-consuming. I mean, when you're underwater, you're completely consumed and immersed in the whole, with the Holy Spirit completely consumed and immersed just differently.
Also, what a, what a fortunate—I can't even, like, really just express—like, imagine just getting, like, adopted into. Or adopted sounds too formal, but, like, just being taken into, like, the, into the life of Christ through baptism. It's like being kind of adopted into the life of Christ, the death of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ, as you were pointing out.
I mean, like, man, that just. It blows my mind. I can't really think about it too much because it's like being in friendship with God or being, like, atoned for and forgiven because you're baptized into, like, allegiance with Christ. It's just like, it's kind of too much to even think about in my mind, really.
Yeah. The Greek word in Strong's concordance says baptizó. I'm going to say that again.
Did anyone else just have, like, Nacho Libre, like, flash in their mind? Baptize you.
No? Okay, me neither.
Me neither.
Okay. Baptizó, I think is the pronunciation. Strong's concordance. Baptizó, to dip submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping, as in, I baptize. Thayer's Greek lexicon to dip repeatedly, to immerge submerge. It also has, metaphorically, to overwhelm is another way that they define that so it's as if to be baptized in the Holy Spirit is to be overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit.
And I think one thing of interest is how in that passage there in Acts where Paul asks those believers there, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And okay, they say they haven't heard of the Holy Spirit. He says, well, then into what were you baptized? It's like to him, to Paul, he was like, that is now what baptism is. Now baptism is like, what other baptism would I be talking about? It's the Holy Spirit. And 2,000 years later, now we use the word baptism the first thing that comes to mind is typically water baptism. We say baptized. Have you been baptized? Water baptism. Paul's like, what kind of baptism was it? Well, the Holy Spirit, of course.
Right.
You know, have you been, have you received the Holy Spirit? Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit?
Yeah.
We're still 2,000 years later trying to take hold of that understanding. And Jesus is the one who baptizes. Even John the Baptist, he was pointing all along to Jesus is the one who's going to baptize. So even John the Baptist said, the water baptizer, said Jesus is going to baptize in the Holy Spirit. And another thought here is John the Baptist, he was baptizing people in the water for some time and then Jesus came along. Up to that point, as Paul says in Acts, he says John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him. That is Jesus. So, these people who were being baptized in water, they were in need of repentance, right? They had sins. They were baptized. And certainly not to reduce it down to like a science experiment, but sometimes this helps us understand greater spiritual things. They're analogies, right?
So, what if somebody who had no sin gets baptized for repentance? Like what would happen? What would happen if Jesus, the one person who had no sin? Well, if the purpose of it is for repentance of sins and we baptize a perfect person, what's going to happen?
Well, this is what happens. The Holy Spirit comes down on him. But now we who believe in Jesus, we are now—in the same way, God views us without sin, right?
Right.
He has taken our sin. He takes away the sin of the— “'Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"
Right.
So, now we believe and are baptized. The Holy Spirit comes on us. As we follow Jesus, we do the things that he did. He was baptized. And it kind of indicates to us that he then baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.
Well, and it is interesting how he does, I mean, once you're saved, be baptized. I mean, that's still a part of the equation, which I think is interesting also.
It's not a suggestion, it's a directive. Be saved, get baptized.
And then, yeah, and then it's like a three-step process. It'd be like, get saved, get baptized, receive the Holy Spirit. And it seems like that that should happen pretty, pretty quick in someone's salvation process.
I don't think we're supposed to hang out for a while, being saved and not baptized.
Yeah.
There's something to—it's just like, okay, you're saved, get baptized.
It's like an immediate step of obedience.
Yeah, it's like the Ethiopian eunuch.
Hello!
Expound. Yeah, what?
Shalom!
It's just like in the Bible.
It's in the Bible.
It's like, well, I should be baptized. Yeah, you should be baptized. Yeah.
You know, I'm sitting here processing all this, and I'm thinking that a lot of people who are listening maybe think that what I've been thinking is that when you're baptized with the Holy Spirit, you speak in tongues. Like that's the fruit of speaking, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But perhaps, as that package deal as we've stated, when you're actually baptized, you have that it's just a gift and you haven't practiced, and you haven't been walking out.
It's an interesting segue here to another observation here.
So, it says there in the book of Acts, when the Holy Spirit does come down, and we'll just read that out here just into the record. Let's just find it here. Okay.
So, in Acts, chapter 2, verses 1-12, here out of the ESV, "When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, 'Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.' And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'What does this mean?'”
So, the holy spirit brings together the languages.
Yeah?
Pretty cool.
Go ahead.
Okay, so.
Mandy had her hand raised.
Oh, you did?
Pretty cool.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
And Robyn had her hand raised.
I didn't.
Okay, so, so I've thought about this before, and I haven't heard this from, I mean, I'm sure somebody has pontificated on this thought before, I just haven't heard it. But how the tower of Babel, everybody lost, like, the languages were scattered. And then it seems like this is a coming back together, like, through the work of Jesus, it's almost like bookends. What was scattered is now brought together. And I think that's. I, it just seems like a really powerful moment that seems to possibly get overlooked a little bit. If, in my mind, when I connected it to the tower of Babel, if that is a thing, that it's just an incredible moment in history where people could understand each other in their own language again.
Wild.
Yeah.
Yeah, in that account of the tower of Babel in Genesis, chapter 11, and the Lord says, "And the Lord said, 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.'" Because they all spoke the same language.
So now, as God's moving among the church, he's bringing unity together.
It stands to reason that nothing will be impossible for a church that is united as the Spirit leads by that Spirit, as indicated by, in language.
Right.
Right.
Now, it transcends all nations, it transcends all languages. That what can be accomplished in the church worldwide.
Yeah, it would stand to reason that that's what the, what they're saying or what is being said here, is that, yeah, there's nothing that the body of Christ can't do.
Especially in unity, like that. Like, it's interesting that we get baptized in, or baptized by the Holy Spirit, and we have access to the same, like, resurrection power that Jesus Christ has, which is like, if you really were to sit and think about that, it's infinitely powerful. And the thing that God decides to do with bringing, like, the Holy Spirit upon this group of people is to provide, like, unity again.
Right.
Like that. Like, of all the things that could have happened and transpired there, it was this, like. Like you said, just like, bringing people back together where they've been once scattered before. And that was his priority. That was his heart, to do that.
Right.
And what he intends to do with that, like, a unified united church.
Yeah.
It's incredible.
Which is kind of interesting, there's so many denominations. Like, I'm not saying that it's like a bad thing, necessarily, but it's just interesting how there is a lot of, like, micro disunity.
Yeah, micro disunity.
New merch.
Don't micro disunity. I don't know. I don't know if there's anything to that, but it's like. But it's—
Well, yeah. In 1 Corinthians, chapter 1, Paul says, "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, 'I follow Paul,' or 'I follow Apollos,' or 'I follow Cephas,' or 'I follow Christ.' Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
So, he's tying in baptism. He's tying in unity and saying that somehow the divisions have to do with not realizing the baptism. The baptism is what he's drawing them to for unity purposes.
Because when you're baptized, you're adopted into the sonship, so you are officially family.
Look at the people in this room. We're all part of different churches that embody coming together.
Yeah.
One more thought here on the, on the bundle.
Blessed bundle.
Sounds like a bundle of joy.
There's, in Revelation 2, there's a letter to the church in Ephesus.
And in verse 2, beginning in verse 2, “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.'"
So, here we have people who believe they're witnessing, they're doing ministry, and yet they're still in need of repentance.
That kind of makes me think of, like, Ananias and Sapphira. I mean, they were like leaders in the church, and they would have done all the things that was expected, and yet there was repentance that was massively needed, and yet they didn't. They didn't repent, and they didn't rectify what they knew they needed to.
She had a shot.
She did.
She. Yeah.
And, yeah, I mean, there's mercy. There's like. There's usually mercy there to be able to say, hey, like. And I think that in these times, it's like we're living in the merciful times right now, where people still have a shot. People still, like, it's not too late.
Right.
And it's almost like that little window that she had. Sapphira? Was that the woman of the two? Ananias. Probably Sapphira. That makes more sense.
And so that window was small. And, like, in the grand scheme of things, the current window was small. And we have a shot. We have a chance to repent. And it's like, do not sit on this.
It's gonna be found out.
There's a lot there. There's a lot there. We could probably go on and on.
And on?
And on.
Yeah.
I may have accidentally baptized my microphone today.
Are you spitting?
It's an unholy baptism.
Well, any closing thoughts as we wrap up this episode?
Dr. Jon?
I think for me, it will go back to just the all-consuming element of the Holy Spirit and how it's—and it goes back to also how the time is short—is without being saved by Jesus, we are exposed to the all-consuming love of God. And the love of God is wonderful and terrifying all at the same time because it is all-consuming, and nothing will be left. Nothing will be left in its wake that isn't covered and pure. And so, it's one of those things where it's like, the imagery of fire is one of those things where it's just like, it just gonna stick with me for a while.
I have that song, Refiners Fire playing in my head.
Oh, it's old school.
It is.
Don't know that one. Go ahead.
I'd sing it. If we wanted to keep the windows intact.
And listeners.
Yeah, I think I'm just left with that vision of fire, Jon, that can't be put out. Because it's all-consuming, it also can't be put out. And that's, I like meditating on that.
There's a lot that's, especially with what you're saying about the fire is really getting my brain thinking a lot more. But there's a lot I don't want to comment on because I don't want to steer people the wrong way. But it's very interesting to me, so I'd like to dive further into that. Yeah.
Well, thanks for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon, et al. We will look forward to another episode soon.
Take care.
Bye.
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