Episode Transcript
William Shakespeare once said, "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them."
While the jury's still out on the latter two, I know I don't qualify for the first.
I wasn't born great. The whole thing really could have gone a bit better.
My birth was like online shopping gone slightly wrong. The delivery was on time, but the item did not match the description.
Namely, I was blue. My parents didn't order a blue baby. And not like a mopey, "Gee, I really wish I would have been born in the spring" kind of blue. Like, "struggling smurf" was my nickname in the NICU, kind of blue.
I was unresponsive—a typical co-adjective for us blue babies—and in need of saving. In the third chapter of John we see a Pharisee named Nicodemus also struggling with his birth and also in need of saving. But his struggle wasn't physical. Nowhere in Scripture does it say he was blue, but maybe check the Apocrypha. No, it was spiritual. According to Scripture, Nicodemus gets the opportunity to have a few undisturbed one-on-one moments with Jesus.
Think fanboy meeting his hero. And like many fanboys, upon initial introduction his mind went a little blank and he reverted to what he knew best: simple facts about Jesus. Namely, telling Jesus about who Jesus is.
Nicodemus said to him,
“'Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.'”
Jesus didn't respond to Nicodemus with pleasantries or clarifying questions. He knew why Nicodemus was there and he got right to the point.
"'Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'”
I love how Jesus answered a question that wasn't even asked. I also love how Nicodemus wasn't fazed by it. Apparently both men were in agreement that the destination was more important than the journey. And what better way to describe the change from one life to another than to paint a picture of birth? But Nicodemus didn't quite understand.
“'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?'”
Gross. Maybe at this point the hero status which Nicodemus had placed upon Jesus was starting to wane a little. But Jesus' answer was anything but wane worthy.
"'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'"
Apparently, Nicodemus sat speechless because Jesus' next words were,
"'Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again."'"
But why this reaction from Nicodemus? I think because between the lines of Jesus' words we see revelation taking hold.
Like seeing The Sixth Sense for the first time, Nicodemus realizes that the answer to the mystery was there the entire time. English theologian Matthew Poole puts it this way,
"Our Saviour instructing a Pharisee, to whom the prophetical writings were known, expressly uses these two words," water and spirit, "and in the same order as they are all set down there, first water, and then the Spirit, that the latter might interpret the former; for water and the Spirit, by a usual figure when two words are employed to signify the same thing, signify spiritual water, that is, his Divine grace in renewing the soul."
And the prophetical writings to which Poole is referring? Well, first Isaiah 44:3,
"'For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.'"
Ezekiel 36:25-27 reads,
"'I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.'"
Not long after the wedding at Cana, Jesus is signaling once again that he is the one whom the Old Testament proclaimed, the one who would be the final sacrifice for the purification and removal of sins. Purification no longer by water, but by his death and resurrection. Matthew Poole continues,
"Thus our Saviour plainly instructs Nicodemus of the absolute necessity of an inward spiritual change and renovation, thereby showing the inefficacy of all the legal washings and sprinklings, that could not purify and make white one soul."
Comedian Dennis Miller once said, "Born again? No, I'm not. Excuse me for getting it right the first time."
Me? I thank God for a second chance at birth. I was nowhere near getting it right the first time.
And while we may not all have life-threatening births, make no mistake, we're all in danger before we're born again.
We're all in need of saving. As Psalm 51:5 reads,
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me."
While I don't have anything to say about my conception—I have no thoughts on the matter whatsoever—being born into sin is no small problem. It's the soul's version of physical duress.
And that being the case, we're all born blue, unresponsive and in need of saving.
I thank God for doctors who can save the body, but I thank God more for Jesus who can save the soul. Because as Bishop J.C. Ryle wrote,
"A day will come when those who are not born again will wish they had never been born at all."
Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
Along with my brother Dr. Jon, I am Chris, your host. Once again in the studio, we're joined with Robyn Nelson, special education teacher, Christina Konrad, licensed mental health counselor, and for the first time in the studio, Josh Ferguson, a man who checks off many of the boxes that I just mentioned. He's an educator, he's been in ministry, missionary, and a huge background. So welcome.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Josh was instrumental in Jon and my first trip to Thailand.
That's right.
Clear back in 2007.
And we may have a picture eventually that will hopefully upload. Right about in this point here maybe we'll just upload it here and.
Yeah, probably something like that. Yeah.
We don't have it now for the audio version, but if you're looking.
Could you describe it, please?
Well, I believe we are in an airport.
It's an airport picture.
And there's Jon maybe right there.
Right there.
Me there. And Josh there.
Josh there.
Wow.
You'll see it.
In the airport?
Is there an elephant in the picture?
No.
Anyway, that was a lot of fun. That, that was probably the. My first international trip. And I believe Jon's as well. But Josh, you were just, I believe, at that time coming back from a trip and then beginning, I think a three-year trip to Cambodia. Is that right?
Yeah. Or a couple years. I lived two years in Thailand teaching English and helping out as a missionary and then two years in Cambodia. So, yeah, I believe that was right at the front end of going to Cambodia.
Very cool. I remember when we met with you, you said the line that I'll always remember, always have, is it was like, wow, $2,500. Like that's a lot to go on a trip. And then, you know, the line is like, well, you'll never remember what you spent the $2,500 on. But you'll never forget the trip. And it's 100% true. Never forgot that trip. And, you know, went traveling after that too. So. Good stuff. Yeah, good stuff.
Good.
And currently an educator working in the state of Washington here.
Correct. Fourth grade teacher.
Fourth grade teacher. Excellent. Also involved in ministry in the local church as well.
Yeah.
All right. Excellent. Okay. Well, welcome everybody. Today we are looking more closely once again in the book of John and looking in the third chapter and verses 1-8, reading out of the ESV.
"Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, 'Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.' Jesus answered him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again." The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"
So that's our opening passage there. I'll turn it over to Dr. Jon for opening comments and we'll circle around the table and get opening thoughts. Dr. Jon.
Yeah. So obviously, like the, the concept of being born again, it's kind of like the kind of the crux of the entire Bible, which is the importance of accepting Jesus and then being born again so we can have a relationship with God. So, this conversation with Nicodemus is pretty significant. And when I was, when I was writing the blog, the kind of thing that came to my mind was when Nicodemus was going to talk with Jesus, it kind of seemed like it was somebody that he was kind of like, well, this is going to be an interesting conversation. Maybe he's looking forward to it. Had some questions that he wanted to ask.
And I started to think after I wrote the post or just kind of thinking about this more recently is like, if you had, you know, 30 minutes to spend with Jesus, you know, what questions would you ask and what would you say? And then I started to think about, you know, what those questions might be and what I might ask, what I might say. But then it's interesting, because when Nicodemus, when he approached Jesus, Jesus responds to Nicodemus with an answer to a question never asked.
And so, then it's like, what if Jesus is more like, if I had 30 minutes with you, what would I want to tell you and for you to know if this is the only time that we had? And then he just goes into it and just saying, you must be born again. And so, I thought that was kind of cool. I think that Jesus is always kind of asking us, or like, If I had 30 minutes with you, this is what I want you to know.
This just totally just came into my mind. It wasn't anything I thought about talking about, but I took a class on Hebrews a long time ago. And one of the main things that talks about in the book of Hebrews is how Jesus is like, our stand-in between us and God. Right? And he is our great high priest. And I think, like, it's just important to recognize that Jesus is accessible and, like, he's actually always with us, and we can approach him whenever we want with whatever questions we have. And he will work through his spirit and answer when the time is right. I just think that's pretty powerful.
Yeah, for sure.
Josh, opening thoughts?
Yeah, I'll piggyback off of what Christina just said. Again, not something I planned either, but that picture of Jesus being our great high priest, and he's interceding for us. A few years ago, I was reading in Hebrews, and there was a phrase that just kind of jumped out to me where it says, he's not ashamed to call us brothers. Or something along those lines. I don't know the exact reference.
And at the time, I was dealing with a lot of just kind of shame or embarrassment, just feeling like I wasn't all that I should be. And when I read that, I thought, like, I don't think Jesus would be glad to call me brother. And it really spoke to just something in my heart. And so, when you're saying, like, what would, what might Jesus say to you, whether you had planned all these other questions? Because it seems like Jesus often answered the question they should have been asking or something instead of what they did ask.
That idea that at times we might have these hindrances in our mind, like, oh, if he did talk to me, maybe sometimes we might think it could actually get slightly condemning or things like that, at least in different seasons of our life. And that was a moment where he said he's not ashamed to call us brothers where I thought, wow, that's intense. If Jesus isn't ashamed to call me his brother, that's amazing.
Right. Right.
And it's because of His work that he did.
Yeah, that's good.
My thoughts are kind of, I think, correlate with what you guys are all saying, but I think it's this thought of especially you're saying Nicodemus approached him and said something, and then he just answered something entirely different. And I. If you're having a conversation with someone and you're kind of presenting a bunch of your own needs and things like that, but they're able to cut right into an issue. So, I wonder if it's not even like what Jesus, like, wants to talk about in 30 minutes, but it's like what you need to hear in that amount of time. And him saying, you need to be born again. Like, I don't know about you guys, but my experience being born again, I had no idea about this concept of being born again until I was born again. And until I had this encounter with the Lord, I would never have thought, like, I just don't think you can even quantify it with real words. Until someone experiences they don't know what that experience is li— is like.
Can we just toss this all out?
Nope.
So ADD today. You don't really know what that experience is like. It's like you don't know what you don't know until you come to realization of it. And I think that this interaction is probably similar. Like Nicodemus was just kind of approaching with a comment. I don't know if it was a need or if it was like anything like that, but Jesus is like, actually, this is what you need to know.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. He goes on to talk about the wind and how.
Well, there's this. There's this commentary by a guy named Albert Barnes. It's an old commentary, but speaking of that verse 8 there, he just mentions how,
"Nicodemus had objected to the doctrine because he did not understand how it could be. Jesus shows him that he ought not to reject it on that account, for he constantly believed things quite as difficult."
Saying that the effects of the wind is how we believe that there's wind. So, same thing with the kingdom. It. We might not know how this all works, but we see the effects of it, and that's how we really know that something actually is happening.
The commentary goes on to say we say,
"We see the changes produced. Men just now sinful become holy; the thoughtless become serious; the licentious become pure; the vicious, moral; the moral, religious; the prayerless, prayerful; the rebellious and obstinate, meek, and mild, and gentle. When we see such changes, we ought no more to doubt that they are produced by some cause - by some mighty agent, than when we see the trees moved, or the waters of the ocean piled on heaps, or feet the cooling effects of a summer’s breeze."
So anyway, it was, it was a great example there of how he was encouraging Nicodemus to believe or wondering how he couldn't or how, wondering how he was having a difficult time believing even though there was—in life, there's a lot of things that we just, just go with.
Right. Yeah.
Even though we might not know exactly how. So that's, that's the faith aspect of it.
Which it is curious, with there being so much of that in our life, how we can still be resistant to God and to Jesus because the examples are there. It's like, well, what else do you need to know? Like, what else do you need to see or to be proven to you that I'm real? I mean, just look around you and I think that is part of—and obviously what it says in scripture too—you know, man is, is not without—what is it? You don't have an excuse because, you know, God is evident in the creation. And so, and yet, you know, we can still choose not to. I think it actually takes more effort to not believe in God than it does to believe in God because like you just said, there's so much, there's just so much evidence for it.
So, in your blog, Jon, you talked about how there are, there's a, Matthew Poole that kind of refers to the water and the Spirit. And there are several different ways to interpret exactly what, what Jesus was referring to there.
One of the ways is that he was referring to the Old Testament writings here. Like Matthew Poole puts it. And so, just saying the combination of water and the Spirit, how there are references in the Old Testament, like in Isaiah, like in Ezekiel, there speaking of cleanliness of heart and the life of the Spirit and how those work together. So just wonder if we can comment a little bit about what born again, how that relates to those two aspects there, the water cleansing and then the life of the Spirit or the breath of God, the Spirit anew in us. So, any thoughts on those aspects referring to The Old Testament writings there of Isaiah and Ezekiel that may have been referenced there.
Right.
Well, so like Matthew. Matthew Poole, he was saying how he would have recognized what Jesus was talking about based off of. Yeah. What he had probably already known very well in the Old Testament. And so that combination of wording would have, you know, struck a chord with them.
Like, as far as. Like, what. What was meant in the Old Testament, I don't know.
Well.
Not to any great depth.
Okay.
But what I do think is fascinating is that. What I think is fascinating is that Jesus took an approach that was very recognizable to Nicodemus. And Nicodemus would have been, okay, like, this makes sense to me because based off what I know and my history, you're meeting me at a place that is, that makes it make sense to me. And I think that Jesus does that for all of us, that he will meet us where we are at, and he'll make it very clear to us based off of our own background, our own knowledge. We don't have to have a background like Nicodemus does, knowing the Scripture, like, inside and out. But Jesus will always find a way to be, like, he'll say something. He'll approach us in such a way where it's like, this makes sense to me, and then starts to pave the way a little bit more for us. It's easier to take at that point.
So, yeah, I guess that's kind of more my thought about that, is more the approach made sense to Nicodemus, just like his approach will make sense to us.
But Nicodemus was looking for it too. And so, Nicodemus was searching. And I think that's a big part of it too. We have to search. And then Christ will be like, okay, now I can help it make sense to you, but you got to want it.
Yeah. At that point, Nicodemus, he wasn't alone. There were several Pharisees that saw the miracles that were happening. And, like, he opened, he's like, well, we know that—not all of them, but some of us know—we know that you are from God because no one can do the things that you do. So, he was already believing that he was at least messenger of God.
Right.
And he wasn't disputing that Jesus' teachings were—that there was any error in it, he was just having trouble understanding himself. So, he was ready in that sense that he was open to what God had to say through him at that point in his journey. So.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting, you know, these promises in the Old Testament towards, God saying he's going to give them a new heart or a new spirit or he'll pour, put his spirit in the people. And my—without a deep study into it—my assumption would be that they might read that as the ancient Israelites would have understood it maybe as within the people, like the tabernacle, the temple, God's Spirit's among the people. And just like God tends to do, or we see in the New Testament, kind of a spiritual application of something of like the temple becomes the people. And so, this idea that we're born again is that even that phrase means so much more than like, oh, I ascribe to Christianity or I like the teachings of Jesus. It means that there's this life altering spiritual birth that happens which is, that's big language compared to like just follow me or something. And one of the things as I was just kind of thinking and praying about what to share that, I don't know, it's very compelling to me. But you have the tabernacle and God's presence among the people and then you have the temple. And in the New Testament you have Jesus show up and say he's going to baptize in the Holy Spirit or John says that about him. And this being born again is what creates the opportunity for us to be cleansed to the point that God's spirit actually resides in us as believers. And so, the Old Testament fulfillment didn't look probably what they would think it would have looked like.
It was this whole new thing. You have God pour out his spirit on the people and we become the temple. And I was looking in 1 Corinthians in chapter 3:16 and then chapter 6 and verse 19, Paul says like, don't you know you're the temple of the Holy Spirit? And he says it with the plural, like you all are the temple of the Holy Spirit, but he also says like your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And so, this idea that we're so transformed, such a new creation, then he can actually dwell within us and that that fulfillment ultimately isn't just his spirit somehow among the people of God in a temple or something, but we become that temple. It's pretty, pretty mind blowing to me that we get that privilege even though we can't earn it. It's just what he did for us. So, that's cool.
That's good.
That's a good thought.
Yeah, that's a, speaking of like the temple and that's a reference to, you know, times when in Israel's history they had a big temple, they had a kingdom. And some would, as I was looking into this, some would say that Nicodemus would have been mindful of Daniel's prophecy. And a little different angle here, but Israel had a physical kingdom and then they were taken over by the Babylonians and then the Medes and Persians and then the Greeks and then the Romans. And this is kind of the question, the unasked question on Nicodemus's part is, when is the kingdom of God coming? Because the final part of that Daniel prophecy is then came a, a stone cut out, not from human hands. It's the kingdom of God that, that finally smashes the, the oppressive kingdoms, more or less. Right?
Yeah.
That's the unasked question, is now the time that the kingdom of God is coming? And Jesus' answer is, you're not even going to be able to see it unless you're born again. And to him, he's like, what?
Yeah.
Like, what is, what is this? And now he's starting to connect the dots, probably. Like, how does this relate to the Daniel prophecy? And what is this kingdom then? And Jesus is making clear that, that the, if he was expecting it to be a, an earthly kingdom.
Right.
Immediately, at least that's, that's not what he's gonna—if that's what he's looking for, he's going to miss it unless he is in fact born again. So, interesting thought there, how it could have, how that Daniel prophecy could have come to mind as well.
Yeah. Which is maybe that's why Jesus just cut to the chase. Just like, look, unless you're born again, you're not going to see the kingdom.
Right.
Nicodemus is like what? Just like I wasn't expecting, like, to have this interaction perhaps. But yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So. And then to say that in other places that the kingdom's already here. It's like, so how can the kingdom, you know, already be here in the midst of the Roman oppression, right?
Right.
How can those things coexist? And so, and you know, the years have gone on and on since then and we've got other peoples, you know, now that the gospel's spread to other people groups as well. It's other forms of government and other dictatorships and things like that. Well, how can the kingdom of God still be existing amidst those?
Right.
In those cases as well? And so, it's as if the lesson is still, needs to be learned.
Right.
In all these circumstances, right?
Yeah.
And maybe even to like a more of a personal degree too. It's like, how can the kingdom of God exist when I'm going through something really difficult or, you know, how can. How can God be good if I'm going through pain? And it's almost like, to your point, like Nicodemus was in the middle of being, you know, the Jewish people, they were being ruled by Rome and, really, you know, persecuted by them to some degree.
And then, and then, yeah, Jesus, like, you know, it's already here. And so, I hear a lot of like in therapy and people asking like, how can there be a good God when bad things happen in this life? And I think that Nicodemus would have been asking the same questions, like, well, how can the kingdom of God be here if, yeah, if we're being persecuted?
But I mean, yeah, from, from a personal standpoint, I mean, I, I've had that thought before when I was, you know, growing up, like, how can there be a good God when something bad happens? It's like, well, it's again, like everything, it's not about fitting God into our circumstances, but fitting our circumstances into God and figuring out how can God still be good even when there's pain in the world?
And yeah.
We just had a sermon yesterday. The title was "From What-Ifs to Even-Ifs." And it was about. It was in Habakkuk. I don't remember the exact.
A lot of sermons aren't taken from Habakkuk. I respect that.
Well, we're actually going through Revelation, which I was maybe going to mention later. But it was basically talking about how God is good even when circumstances are not the best. It's not like. It's like that shift from thinking, what if this happens? And thinking like life could just end if the worst thing we can imagine happens. But when we are in Christ, even if the worst things imaginable happen, we're still saved and we still get to go to heaven and live eternally with Him. So, none of that stuff actually matters really. And it's so hard to wrap our brain around. It feels not an adequate explanation for a lot of circumstances, but that's the truth.
Right. Looking back at this time, you know, we've all probably heard it said at sometime or another that this life will probably feel like just the blink of an eye. Like this won't even feel like it was anything. And whatever pain that we experience here on Earth compared to eternity in the presence of God, it's, we have to keep things in perspective. But we only have the perspective through Christ. And if we don't have that perspective, then everything's going to feel like that we're being steamrolled with life's problems and difficulties.
Right.
But yeah. Christ allows us to rise above that though.
Right.
It's funny how your perspective changes when you're born again. I want to say. Not that you don't still have like dark thoughts sometimes or anything like that, but I really think that when I met the Lord, like life just suddenly looked very different. Like I remember thinking, like, looking back on my experience because I met Jesus when I was 15, so I had like all of my formative years basically living one way and it wasn't bad. But I just like, then I met God and I was like, holy moly. Like there's like this. It really is like your eyes are open to a whole spiritual world. And I remember thinking life before Jesus felt very 2D and then meeting Jesus felt very like, I don't know, I guess three dimensional.
4D.
4D and like just like colorful and bright. It just felt. I don't know how to describe it, but like my whole like, it's like my eyes were just open. It's a very different perspective. And life is still painful, but there is. But there's some longevity to it or like this, like enduring hope, I guess. And so, I do think that the experience of coming to know God can significantly change your mindset on the same things that you've always experienced. And perspective is just a huge part of that. Yeah.
That's good.
Can I share a, just some Scripture that I had written down and fits perfectly with what you guys are talking about?
Yeah.
Thank you. Just kidding.
Is it unanimous approval?
I'm sorry. You're denied.
I was waiting for that. Yeah.
All in favor?
Two works for me. This is one of my favorite passages because I think it fits so much with thinking eternally. Yeah. So, it's the end of chapter 4 in 2 Corinthians, and Paul says,
"So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."
And so that hope we have, even in the questions or the most difficulty, ultimately when we can set our—it's interesting how Paul says we like, we look at the unseen things. It doesn't even make sense in a physical way. But the eternal things are those spiritual things we can't see. And that's where being born again even happens. And so, this idea that inwardly or on the outside, we're wasting away, we're aging, we're injuries, illness, all these things. But on the inside, where true life exists, we're actually growing and being renewed each day. And that, he says, keeping, like fixing your eyes on the unseen, that's the eternal things, that gives us perspective for the, what he calls "light momentary affliction." And when you read the list of things Paul went through, it's, like, insane. Nobody's ever been through all that.
And he calls it light, momentary affliction. And I don't think he's joking. I think he's just. He's got that perspective of. Because it's like, I would ask the question, how could Paul do all that he did? Now, obviously, it was by God's strength and grace, and it was his specific calling. But this is like one of those keys in my mind of when we lose sight of the eternal unseen things because we can't see them. That's when we start to lose hope or faith or get distracted or the questions seem bigger than they really are. But when we come back to the unseen things, it puts things back into perspective.
Yeah. Yeah, that's really good.
Very good.
And that requires faith, because when Jesus goes on to say to Nicodemus, you're Israel's teacher, and you don't understand these things and these things that have analogies, earthly analogies.
Right.
How will you understand things that don't have earthly analogies? You know, other spiritual things that maybe, I'm kind of, maybe paraphrasing a little bit, you know, that might have kind of been an encouragement to have more faith.
Yeah, well.
Because not everything has an analogy that you can even understand.
Talk about, like, putting a chill up your spine. Like if you had, like, a boss or someone that comes around and they say something similar, like, "what do you mean you don't even know this?"
"You're in this position and you don't even know this?" And then it's like, "okay, I'm about to get fired." But thankfully, Jesus doesn't fire us. He invites us to learn more, and he'll explain it to us as we need to. But, man, what a—I'll bet you Nicodemus would have been like, oh, my gosh. Like, that's being called out pretty hardcore. Yeah.
You're teaching this and you don't even know it?
Oh, my gosh.
That's me 90% of the time, by the way.
Good to know.
I shouldn't say that. I'm relatively new.
For any clients that are listening, that's not me. I get it. I understand it.
I'm just joking.
I get it, I understand.
I mean, I think all of us are like, in process, right?
Yeah, Jon.
Spiritually, not professionally.
But if we're in a position of some sort of authority, like, we're just, we just have to be a little bit further along than the people we're leading. We don't have to have it all figured out.
That's very, very true.
I think I've got it down for what I'm teaching.
Like how to go to the bathroom and—we don't need to go back. Can you just.
Like, you just barely know?
I'm teaching life skills, okay? So, I know how to do these things is what I'm saying.
I don't know how it got back to the bathroom topic.
Good times.
I should have led with something else. How to line up in a straight line. Thank you.
That's good.
I think for me, the topic of being born again just kind of brings up a lot of the reminders of the, this, there's a bunch of Scriptures that talk about that we're a new creation and that we have a new identity when we become a follower of Jesus and he adopts us into our, his family.
There's so many, like, different pieces of that that different people will cling on to because of what their own experiences have exposed them to.
But I, really, I highlighted 1 John 3:1-2, and it says,
"See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared."
The unseen.
"But we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
It's like our vision perspective is changed when we become followers of Christ, but like, we can see him and we're set apart for him.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, we, we will be like him. And the way that Jesus first answered or spoke to Nicodemus, he was talking about, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I believe that Greek word born again could also be interpreted as born from above.
Sort of a double entendre, if you will.
I will.
Nicodemus went for the more natural version of that. But, and there's a, there's even another way to describe it. And that would be born from the first or from the, from the beginning.
And in 1 Peter, he talks about being born again.
In chapter 1, verse 3, it says,
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
And just going with that version of born from above or born from the beginning, it reminds me of when John the Baptist saw Jesus and he said, here comes, or the one who comes after me is greater than me because he was before me. It's like being born from the beginning, like from the One, the resurrection of the One from the dead, Jesus, he was also from the beginning. So, it's. God had that in mind even before we were born.
Right.
I just think that sometimes we get very caught up on the progression of our lives being like linear. Like, like I was born and I sinned and I messed up and then I get redeemed. And that might be all well and good, but there's perhaps this other thought that God had this all arranged before you were even born, that to be born from above through faith in the one that preceded even John the Baptist.
Right.
He was. He's greater than him because he was before him.
Right.
And I just think there's some renewed confidence in knowing that God had all these things in motion even before you messed up or were even conscious of your need of being born again.
That was actually. You explained that very well because that was a question that kind of was coming. I was going to ask you guys, like, do we think it's like a chronological event in our lives? To some degree. I mean, obviously I had an experience when I was 15, but I feel like there were like. Was it you who said that you said like your salvation prayer I guess with your mom at like 4 years old? Like, what could you have done before 4 years old?
I was an ornery 3 year old.
I should ask your mom. I bet she'd have a lot to say.
Terrible, terrible twos. Terrible.
It was the most terrible twos.
I mean every child is like stubborn and.
For sure, like, we have a sin nature to us, but I was thinking more along those aspects too. Then we are. We maybe have this event where we, we have at some point in our lives we make a decision for Jesus, but we still have a sin nature about us. We continue to like, I haven't been perfect since 15 years old. And so, it isn't just like one like chronological event in our life so much as. But the way that you put that, I feel like really answered that question of it's more about really being born again to the spirit rather than it just being like one event that happens in our life and then the trajectory is just straightforward from then on out.
Right. And yeah, to your earlier points. Yeah, no one's perfect. Even moving forward, we're going to sin and fall short. But that's not the point. Like, none of that's the point. Is it's all grace. It's always grace. There's nothing that we can do back then, now, that can get us to the place where we are acceptable in the sight of God because He is holy and perfect. Unless we're perfect, we're not going to meet Him. It's only through Jesus in his perfection and clothing us that we will. So, yeah, I mean, that's. It's a whole mind bender because even as believers, I think we can get caught up a little bit and like, oh man, I screwed up again. Like, obviously we're trying to live more Christ-like, but we have to be very careful not to get caught up in the idea that I need to do better.
Yeah.
That's like, no. Then we start to slowly inch away from grace again. But again, we don't abuse grace. So it's like, it's complex and simple all at the same time. But yeah, it's nothing that we can ever do. It's only grace.
I was thinking on what you guys were saying about being born again and then covered by the grace of God too. Like, he maybe if I move my arms, I can think better. But.
Stop.
I'm Italian.
Can I just get the thought going? No, there was something that you guys were saying that it made me think of this friend that I had many years ago who, before I knew them, they had come from like, a long history of substance abuse and living homeless and in and out of jail and kind of doing whatever they needed to do to get the next fix. So, you can think of all that entails sort of thing. And I remember this friendship. There was a lot of conversations surrounding, like, not feeling good enough to be friends with me and because I'm just like this sweet girl who's like, at best had like a PG13 experience in my life. Like, you know, and then they have this whole sordid past and they would talk about like, not feeling good enough to be friends with me and et cetera, et cetera. And I remember thinking, like, you keep talking about all these stories that you had that. But that's before I ever knew you. Like, I don't even know that person that you're talking about. And what I know of you is that you always show up for me, that you always are very inquisitive what's going on in my life. Like, you really care about me. I see all this care, and I see who you are right now. I never even knew that person you used to talk about. And it, it. Something about the conversation we were just having made me think of that. And I just wonder if that's God's heart toward us as we are covered by the grace of God. Like, there is a Scripture that says that as far as the east is from the west, he removes our transgressions from us. Like, he doesn't even remember them. And I just was thinking on that as you guys were talking, that I wonder if that's sometimes the same attitude that God has toward us is like, yes, like, all those things did happen, but covered by the grace of God. I don't even know that person that you're talking about, because this is who you are now. And being a new creation in Christ, that was, that's the phrase that got clicked in there. It's been a big Monday. I mean, it's been a big day.
Monday's okay.
I made it.
It's been a big Monday, the 19th.
Ah, geez.
Of August 2024.
I did a devotional one time when I was working at a women's shelter. We were required to do devotionals with the women in the morning. And I was refinishing a table. I got a table off of, like, Craigslist or something. And I was. It's the cutest table. Had, like, these really cute legs. I don't know the right words for them, but I was refinishing it, sanded it down and, like, had to clean it. And I think only toddlers ate at that table for however many years it had existed because it was so grimy and filled with gunk and sticky, and it was just gross. And I was like, as I was cleaning this table, getting it ready to, like, refinish, I was like, this is what God thinks of us. Like, like he sees us at our worst, like, when we're yet still sinners, right? And he's like, I see your potential, and I believe you can be these other things, right? Redeemed and forgiven and righteous. And I just think that's such a powerful picture. I kind of piggybacked.
Especially that one. Like, I'm just thinking of the refining process too. That table was probably in a little bit of pain.
It was pretty gross.
Yeah.
Like, it hurts to get sanded down.
But then it was so cute.
Yeah.
And I was like, see what God does to us? Yeah, he makes us so cute.
Love that.
It's like, it's like with the saying, saying goes something like, God loves us so much, he'll meet us right where we're at. But he loves us too much to leave us there. Right. And so that's another great one. I think it kind of depicts that. But I do think it's very true that, I think that God's like, what, like, I only know you from the, from being covered by Christ, by Jesus, by My Son. It's only us that tends to keep hanging on to, like, the memory of what we were. And then even if that "were" was five minutes ago, it's like, as long as it's covered, it's done. And so, I think that's something we need to be just careful of, is to make sure that we don't just keep our heads in the mud when we screw up. It's shoulders back, eyes forward as quickly as possible so that the enemy doesn't get the chance to keep us down and say, yeah, but remember this. It's like, well, if God doesn't remember it, why are we remembering it?
Right.
Yeah.
All right, closing thoughts around the table, we'll start with Dr. Jon.
Yeah, so there's a quote by Dr. David Jeremiah, that I think is pretty good. He says,
"Many Christians have the mistaken notion that eternal life begins when they die. But that is not biblically accurate. Eternal life begins when we are born again into the kingdom of God."
And so, when we are born again, that's when eternity starts. Eternal life begins. And so, I just think that's an important bit to remember, is we're not waiting to pass away before we enter into eternal life. We are already living in eternal life once we are born again.
Great. All right. Closing thoughts, Christina?
So, in Jon's introduction, he mentioned a quote by a guy named Bishop J.C. Ryle.
And it was,
"A day will come when those who are not born again will wish they had never been born."
And right now, our church is going through a series in Revelation. I'm not an end times like Bible scholar, so please don't like, judge me if I'm getting this slightly inaccurately, but the gist in, the gist what, what I thought of that connected to that was we had just gone through chapter 14 in Revelation, and so like, John's seeing these visions and, you know, there's like beasts and dragons and there's a point at which after, I believe, that the tribulation has started, like, even then—I don't know if you're a post trib, pre trib person. That's a whole 'nother conversation, I guess. But the gist is like, even after the redeemed have been taken by Jesus in the Second Coming, like in chapter 14, one of the angels, like, kind of gives, like, God's so gracious. God wants to, wants everyone to be saved so much that he gives people even another chance. Like, even at the very end, like, when. When everyone else is kind of like, oh, it's over, but like, there's still another time when, like, they gather up those who still believe. And I just think that's like, the heart of God is like, to not let any of us live apart from him, but. But we have to choose to believe in him, to be born again in him, to have that eternal life with Him.
Right. Yeah. It's like the Titanic is sinking, but it's up to us to get into the lifeboat.
Yeah.
Closing thoughts, Josh?
Yeah, it ties right into what Christina just shared. In 1 Timothy 2:4. It says that, it refers to God as our Savior and it says he,
"who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
And so that's God's heart, is that every person would be born again and would be saved, but it gives us that choice. This year, one of my goals as a teacher and just as a person is to, I want to have more of that heart for my kids, even though my students, though there might not be much chance to evangelize directly in a public school setting. I want to have that desire. God desires that every person would be saved. I want to have that desire for my students and for neighbors and for everyone, because that'll shape how I view them and how I treat them with dignity and respect, that, you know, God wants this person to be in relationship with them. So, just looking at that statement that God our Savior, desires for all people to be saved and to be born again, I want, I hope that God will grow that desire in myself and that that'll bear fruit towards prayer and when the setting is correct, you know, sharing the good news.
Yeah, that's good.
So, kind of piggybacking on what you said about that quote. David Jeremiah. Dr. David Jeremiah, excuse me.
He said, you know, eternal life doesn't begin when we die. It actually is now with being born again. And the thought I had on that is kind of going back to also that other thought where we were talking about—oh, my gosh, you would think that I don't communicate ever. Like, you just would think that. But it's like, this is my first time talking, guys. Welcome to it. Where we talked about, you know, the enemy will always try and remind us of our past and kind of bring us back to that. And God has already done the thing and paid the price. And it reminds me of—forgive me if I've already used this analogy, but I think about it often. I had a friend who bought me my first Apple Watch before, and it was a series two, which was a big deal because it was the first one that was waterproof. And so, I remember we were all in the Dominican Republic after we did our big missions thing and then we went out to the beach and he's like, "Oh, have you used your Apple Watch in the water?" And I was like, "No, I'm afraid to get it wet." He's like, "That's what I paid for." He's like, "I paid for it so you can get it wet."
And I think about that often. Like, I. God has paid the price and we, it's up to us. Like, I don't wanna say take advantage, but utilize, like, the gifts that he's given us. And so, walking in that freedom of not bearing shame of our past or of a decision we made five minutes ago and walking in the goodness of God and joy and peace and patience and all of these gifts that he's given us because he's already paid that price for us. And that's where my connecting thoughts went with all the things that you guys were talking about.
That's good.
All right. Well, excellent discussion, everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care, everybody.
Thank you.
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