S2 E11 | "Greater" | Bible Study John 4:7-12

Imagine I'm walking in the snow. Okay, I'm gonna close my eyes. Keep going. I can't unimagine this. It's all I can see. I thought you were going to tell a story with it. I'm like, okay, I'm in. Good segue for Ro's joke. That's right. Yeah. If you have a winter joke. Snowman. Yeah, yeah. What do you call a snowman's offspring? And a snow woman's offspring? Ice, ice, baby. One thing worse than, like, a bad joke is a politically correct bad joke. Oh, my gosh. Well, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times. My name is Chris, your host once again. Also in the studio, my brother, Dr. Jon. Howdy. And with us also today, special education teacher Robyn Nelson; Rogelio Navarro, LMHCA; and from Reach Ministry, Mandy Michaels. Welcome, everybody. Good to be here. Hello. Yeah. We are still in the book of John. We are still in the book of John, chapter 4. And we're going to take another look here, continuing our look at Jesus' encounter with the woman from Samaria at the well. Got a little more to say about that. And we're going to look more closely at the word "greater," which is found in verse 12 here. So, I'll just read verses 7 through 12 here in John chapter 4. Out of the ESV, "A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, 'Give me a drink.' (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) The Samaritan woman said to him, 'How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?' (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) Jesus answered her, 'If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, "Give me a drink," you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.' The woman said to him, 'Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.'" That's our opening passage of Scripture. We'll start with opening thoughts around the table and looking at the word "greater" there in John chapter 4. Dr. Jon. Yeah, this is such a fun passage of Scripture. And like I've said so many times before, like, the more you read it, read a passage of Scripture, the more you just kind of think about it, the more, I don't know, the more you get from it. So, I think the first opening thought that I just kind of have is, it's so awesome that Jesus will hang with us even when we're kind of being jerks or kind of being, like, sarcastic with him. And it's fun because, well, with that, because her response, it sounds sarcastic to me. But it's kind of cool how Jesus, it's like three times—twice he tries to get through to her one way, and then he goes a third time, a completely different approach. So, like, the first time, he's like, "'If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, "Give me a drink," you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.'" And then kind of goes on, and then, you know, verse 13, Jesus says to her, "'Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.'" And so, again, kind of like, get, trying to get her to this new, this new depth. And she still is just like, like, are you better than Jacob? Which is kind of interesting, because for hundreds of years that well has been there, and that's where everybody came to get water. And then he's like, I can give you living water. And it sounds like in her mind, she's like, have you seen any more wells around here? Like, this is like, Jacob dug this. This is where we've been coming to for hundreds, hundreds of years. And you're saying, so where's, so where's it at? Because no one else has found water like Jacob has. So, twice he tries to get to her, going to the deeper level. And she still says, give me this water so I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water. So, still not getting it. And Jesus is like, all right, go tell your husband to come here. And she's like, I don't have a husband. And then he's like, I know you don't. The person you're living with isn't your husband either. So, it's like God hangs with us. Jesus hangs with us when we're resistant, when we're defiant, or when we're not, just not getting it. And he'll keep nudging us, and then every once in a while, he'll kind of just go to the heart of it, and he'll get us there if we allow him to. And it worked with her, which is fantastic. Really cool. That's good. As I was studying this, I was reading that in Jesus' day, living water was actually a term people used readily, as a, because they bubbled up out of the ground, so they consider it living water. So that would play into her just kind of not catching on to what he was saying. And also, my thought around this was, I love that when Jesus comes to us, he comes to a place of spiritual maturity and understanding. Like when he talks to us, he expects you to gravitate towards a bigger understanding than you have now, right? Instead of coming at you like you would maybe a kindergartner or somebody with a lack of understanding. And I just love that approach. And he does it throughout Scripture. And I love it because there's such a confidence and a trust that you will figure it out, right? You will catch on and you will catch up to what he's saying. Yeah. Doesn't speak down to us. Right. Right. I love the way that Jesus talks about living water that essentially won't run out. Like everybody else will drink and then become thirsty again. And so, there's this kind of like a, like a spiritual fulfilling, fulfillment, or a spiritual thirst that is fulfilled by, right? The gift of God that is that, in a spiritual sense, that living water as well, is like his spirit and his, yeah, the way that he fills us up. And so, I just love that image that he's offering something greater, right? Than what people know, which is not eternal, is impermanent. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Where I kind of got stuck on this Scripture was that, I mean, she went to. Thank you. I can hear myself better now. Welcome. There was a button to push. That. I was. I said it a few times. I was like, maybe it's just me, but I can't hear myself. But I mean, she went to collect water in the middle of the day, which was not usual in this culture because it's really, really hot and it's really uncomfortable. But she, I think, was specifically avoiding other people because of her lifestyle and the shame and whatnot. And Jesus goes to find her. And I just. It also kind of dawned on me that the disciples that he usually is with were not with him for this. And I think that that was very strategic on his part, is that he found a time that he could find her and talk to her about these very personal things, but not necessarily to expose her. And I just really love that. I felt it was very, like. I don't know. Like, that's another gracious part of his personality is to call her out and to have, like, first is about living water, and then to get. Make it even more deeply personal to her and apply it there. But he did that in a way that was not public for everyone. Yeah. So. And he wasn't afraid to bring it up. Wasn't afraid. You know, he didn't shy away from the elephant in the room, as it were. Right. It was very direct. Put it right out there. Yeah. And which. That's how we need to act. Right? In our lives, in those shame places, you put it out in the light, and it can't, you know, it can't survive in the light. Yeah. I see the buffalo in the room here. I don't know if our viewers can see it. There's a buffalo on the wall. We don't do. We don't do elephants in the room. They can see it a little bit. We do buffalo in the room. We'd like to address the buffalo in the room. That word "greater," in Strong's Lexicon, "magas." "Magas." "Great, large, mighty." And it adds some cultural and historical background. "In the Greco-Roman world, greatness was often associated with power, wealth, and influence. The term 'megas' would have been understood in this context, highlighting the grandeur or superiority of a person, place, or event. In the biblical context, however, greatness is frequently redefined to align with God's values, where humility and servanthood are exalted." So, I look at this passage of Scripture, and Jesus asks the woman for a drink, and he says, if you knew who it is that's asking for you, you would have asked him for living water. She says, “'Sir, you have nothing to draw water with.... Are you greater than our father Jacob?'" So, it seems like in her mind, if somebody is great, he can at least get his own water. Right. Jacob was able to not only get it for himself, he gave it to his sons, and he gave it to his livestock. You don't even have a bucket to get the water with. How is it that he is greater than Jacob? Right? Jacob, there was no well to begin with. Well, yeah, he started from the dry ground. Right? And so. But, you know, and at first glance, we've talked about on this podcast before, like, unusually wrapped. Like, it doesn't appear like Jesus is great in this sense, but, I mean, basically, he's a stranger right now to her. Right? He just introduced himself to her. Yeah. Anyway, this is just kind of the things that are coming off the top of her head as she meets someone. And so. You don't got a bucket to draw with. Pretty much, yeah. And I was looking at, like, who. Who was a Samaritan? Who are the Samaritans? Right? And there's some interesting historical background there, I think. If you go way back in, way back. 2 Kings 17, verse 6. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria," so, this is an invading country, "captured Samaria, and he carried the Israelites away to Assyria and placed them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." So now, Samaria has been invaded, right? 2 Kings 17:24-28. "And the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath, and Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the people of Israel. And they took possession of Samaria and lived in its cities. And at the beginning of their dwelling there, they did not fear the Lord. Therefore the Lord sent lions among them, which killed some of them. So the king of Assyria," this is the invading nation, "was told, 'The nations that you have carried away and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the law of the god of the land. Therefore he has sent lions among them, and behold, they are killing them, because they do not know the law of the god of the land.' Then the king of Assyria commanded, 'Send there one of the priests whom you carried away from there, and let him go and dwell there and teach them the law of the god of the land.' So one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and lived in Bethel and taught them how they should fear the Lord." And this is the background of this Samaritan woman, which she seems very well aware of her history. She knows kind of what this background is. It seems. Later on, the Jews whom—this is the, what she, her people learned of, the Jewish God—now those Jewish people don't want anything to do with her. Right. How is it that you, a Jew, talk to me a Samaritan? And yet she kind of, kind of believes that, she knows that there is a Messiah coming, right? So anyway, we've kind of, I think look at that micro situation of hers and can obviously have compassion on her. But also, there's a macro situation where you can also kind of have compassion on somebody who. Right. Who is. Has learned all she can, given the situation. Some priest who had been removed was brought back, told the people what they needed to know, basically. And now she has a legitimate concern about where do we worship. You know, like we're told to worship and, and we're. The Jews say you can't worship here and stuff like that. It's like, she's basically doing the best she can, right? Given, what she can, what more can she do? Maybe a little fed up too. A little bit. So, when she says, you know, are you greater than, than our father? She's kind of by adoption, in a sense, kind of identifying with Jacob, the best she can. Right. Are you greater than him? And Jesus of course is. So anyway, yeah, a few thoughts there. I'll come back. But anyway. That is really interesting, for sure. Because I think you're right. I think that we do tend, like, I tend to look at this as a, more of a self-contained, without looking at the, like you're saying the macro story behind it all. And yeah, it's. I think that it is a testament to her, certainly. I mean the way that you put it. She, with what, she did as much as she could with what she had. And then there's somebody there coming to her and just giving her this, this new kind of thing to think about. And I, that was kind of the thought that I had is like she does seem like a little bit like, well, what do you like, what are you talking about? It's like, this is like, first, I, they say this and then someone else comes here and says this and now you come here, and you say something different. It's like what is, what is truth? What is, what are we talking about here? And so, that does definitely kind of put a different spin on it, for me, looking at the, looking at the history of it a little more in depth, that was pretty cool. It really makes it more poignant, you know, that Jesus would seek her out and like you said, he would intentionally send the disciples away because they didn't have a heart for Samaritan people. And they, I mean it was very clear as they were walking up to that place like, why are we here? And usually, they would walk around. Samaritan wouldn't walk through, right? So just everything about it, Jesus was so intentional about every step of the way. And how, I mean, just how beautiful, like how, how beautiful is God and redemption story and how can we relate to that? I mean, each and every one of us can relate to this so much that Jesus would meet us right where we're at, despite our circumstances, how we got there, whatever it looks like for us, whatever shame we're in, Jesus is right there to be with us and to love us through it. Yeah. And she's the one that ends up being the one to first proclaim Jesus here to the Samaritans. And somebody, again, this is like Bible time and time again is like, so a woman who was married four times and was living with somebody that she's not married to, she's the one's going to carry the gospel to the Samaritans. That's super cool. That's very cool. And even though she kind of set up these things, like, are you greater than our father Jacob? He drank from it himself, the well, the water from the well, as did his sons. If that is a way to determine whether someone is great, if they can provide for themselves and others. I mean, Jesus actually does all those things. So, if you look at John chapter 10 verses 17 and 18, "'For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.'” So, Jesus can, he's powerful enough to, within himself, he has life. And then John chapter 11, verses 25 to 26, "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?'” So, it applies to others too, right? It's not just him, but kind of like she's kind of teeing it up like, are you great enough like Jacob to drink for himself and others, and his sons? It's like in John chapter 1, like, "he gave the right to become children of God." It's kind of like all in there. I mean, it's. Right. I don't want to, like, read something too much that's not there, but it kind of, kind of, there's a lot of things that you can kind of connect some dots there. So, you know, the other really beautiful thing about that is like, whoever Jesus reaches out to, he lifts up and he makes greater. And so, in that example, like, as a woman, Samaritan woman, she becomes touched by Jesus in a way that she's now more, she's leading the gospel all of a sudden. And I think we have all these examples of how he turns kind of "nobody's" quote unquote, and you know, anybody from like Mary Magdalene who was, you know, who knows. But I mean, there wasn't, it wasn't a nice kind of lifestyle, what I understand is, you know, there was a lot of sin. And I mean, people like St. Paul even who were prosecuting Christians, a lot of sinful disciples, precisely were kind of brought in by Jesus because they seem to be kind of "other" or maybe outcasts. And so, I think that's really important too. Yeah. Yeah. And on, just on this thought of it extending out to other people, you know, it's like in the book of Acts, chapter 2, verses 38-39. "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'” So just on that thought of, is "greater" extending to other people, not just himself and his sons and his livestock, like Jacob, like she said there. Well, Peter indicates here his "'promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'” So, another similarity there how the Holy Spirit even. It's the greatness of Jesus in the gift of the Holy Spirit that, whom he sent, how far reaching that is. It's another indicator of how the answer to that question is yes. Are you greater than Jacob? The answer is yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, I know it's like one of those hold my wine moments where it's like, yes, like, can you feed your, can you give yourself water and your livestock water? He's like, yeah, I can do that. And I can also provide everlasting life for everybody in generation after generation after generation. And it kind of crossed my mind too on this line of reasoning with perhaps her mindset, I wonder what she was thinking like when she then heard that Jesus fed like 10,000 people? Like, so this guy who I was like, getting on him because he didn't have a pot to draw from. And now he's like feeding 5,000 people out of nothing. It's like, that's just cool. Two loaves. Yeah, well exactly. Yeah, right. So, pretty, pretty cool. So, one thought that I also had was, is pertaining to like the word greater. So, in Luke chapter 7:28 it says, this is Jesus talking, "'I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John."' John the Baptist. "'Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.'” So, that's kind of interesting bit too because greater is spoken of there and so, just kind of give a little more context starting in verse 24, says, "When John's messengers had gone, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: 'What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are dressed in splendid clothing and live in luxury are in kings' courts. What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written, '"Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you." I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.'" So, I guess first point, this is another instance where it seems like sarcasm pops up. And I kind of love the fact that Jesus is the one that's using sarcasm here a little bit because he's like what did you go in the wilderness to see, a reed shaken by the wind? So, what, you go out to the wilderness to see some bushes shaking? And then what? You think you're going to see some guy in a three-piece suit? In the desert? In the wilderness? Like no, you're going to see John. Like what did you think you're going to see? A prophet. Yes. And he's living in this wilderness. He's not going to look like he lives in a king's court. So, sidebar. I just thought that was great. But then I started to really think about verse 28 and what that, I don't know, it took me a while, I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are on this. Because Matthew Poole had a commentary on it that says, "Verily I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there hath not risen ... greater" and so, he goes to say, "that is ... a greater prophet ... amongst all the prophets of the Old Testament, God raised up none greater than John." And so, there's an idea here that it's among the prophets that he's speaking of, because that's whom the Holy Spirit would drop on, are prophets. And then the second part, "Notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Pool goes on to say, "Many ... think that by this phrase is to be understood, the least of those who shall preach the gospel after my resurrection will be greater than he, that is, as to their doctrine. John could only declare me to be come. They shall preach me, as having died for my people’s sins, and risen again for their justification ... The death and the resurrection of Christ were indeed great points of the gospel, which John could only prophesy of, not preach of, and declare us things in his time accomplished." So, that's kind of a really cool thought there because that means us. I mean that means that we preach the death and the resurrection of Jesus, where John could only prophesy that it was coming. And John died before Jesus died and rose again. Wow. And so, that to me sounds like we're called as greater than John the Baptist because we have the ability and opportunity to preach the resurrection and the death which John only was able to prophesy about. Yeah. So, they prophesied that the good news was coming. We prophesied that the good news has happened, and we can participate in that good news. Right. Like two sides of a coin. And we get to be on the side that, finished side. And not until the other John, with Revelation, can we also teach the last bit, that Jesus coming again. John the Baptist, I don't think ever got that revelation because there was John that got that revelation like years later. Right. So that's, that kind of blew my mind going down that path. Yeah, you're kind of blowing my mind right now a little bit. It's. Yeah, that's really interesting because you could look at like the death of John the Baptist and ask why, like why did that happen? But it's kind of like he had to die in order for that to be fulfilled. He couldn't have existed post resurrection. He couldn't be alive on the planet post resurrection because then he would have been in the place of being able to preach the resurrected Christ. Right. So, he had to die before Jesus in order for that to come to pass, to be true, that none, "none is greater than John" the Baptist, but those who preach afterwards would be considered greater than John the Baptist. Which, by Jesus saying those words, it seems like that was like a foreshadowing of you're not going to live. It explains kind of the purpose of it, in a sense. Yeah. His mission was to prepare the way. He fulfilled his mission. Yeah. Yeah. And I never thought of John the Baptist as like the last of the Old Testament prophets. And I believe it's the book of Hebrews that says, that speaks of the Old Testament prophets, saying that they shall not be, like, complete apart from us or something. Like, it, the Old Testament prophets and those who believe post resurrection, they're, there's like a, they're connected. Their work, though they did not see what they prophesied about in this life, maybe I should look it up to get the actual. But that they may not be complete apart from us who now believe today. Right. In what they prophesied about back then. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, look it up. But yeah, it's. Yeah. Again, kind of like not thinking of John the Baptist as an Old Testament prophet, but that John the Baptist has more in connection with like, more with them than the apostles. Right. And Paul. Yeah. Kind of the last. Yeah. Even though it was. Is in that middle, that middle time of the gospels where Jesus was on Earth but yet hadn't fulfilled. I mean. Right. I mean. Yeah. Jesus. Jesus was on Earth for 30 years before his ministry. And it—I guess that's another little bit too; but get off track—but it's like the fact that Jesus was here and he waited 30 years before he fulfilled what for thousands of years was being prophesied about. Come on, Jesus. Very patient. Very patient. Yeah, it's in. So, I was thinking of Hebrews, chapter 11, verses 39-40. "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." And that chapter doesn't specifically name John the Baptist, but. Right. In a sense he's kind of in that group of the prophets before Jesus went to the cross. Right. Yeah. Very interesting. He kind of wrapped up all of what the prophets were saying in the Old Testament. It was kind of the wrap up. Right. Where Jesus was the start of what was new. That's right. Yeah. The culmination of thousands of years. They were cousins. Come on now. Right. Yeah. I love, I love—kind of just getting off track here a little bit—but I love when they were both still in the womb that John the Baptist recognized Jesus because the Spirit was already on him. Right. There's so much about this. Can you just sit in this for months and just try to, try to grasp the magnitude of what Jesus has done here? Right. Yeah. Coming back to the word "greater," it reminds me a lot of when the disciples were asking Jesus about who's the greatest among us. And he talks about, like, the biggest servant among us is the greatest. And specifically, like in Matthew 23:11, it says, "The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." And there's something really interesting about that because it also connects to when Jesus talks about whoever does these acts of helping the poor, the sick and the lonely, and all of that. He says, whoever does this for the least of these, does it for me. And there's this really powerful link between, like, Jesus associating himself with the lowly, as we said, and, well, the sinners, us, and associating himself with the least. With the least. Right? And in some sense, like, being hung on a cross is like the least possible position that anybody can be in. So, there's this real paradox there around, you know, greatness and what it means to be great. Yeah, there's a lot that can be said right there. But yeah. No, it's true. Everything is opposite from what we think. And kind of like, we've been kind of bringing into the conversation a bit, it's like we think that, you know, the Savior would come in more extraordinary ways than in a manger. Like in Bethlehem with no one to know, except other than the fact that the angels told people, basically. Right? And then the person that ushered in Jesus as the Messiah was somebody who's living in the wilderness that people would never have recognized as being somebody "worthy," quote unquote, of speaking of the person is here that's going to save humanity. And then how humanity is saved is not, you know, through strength necessarily, in our sense, but through weakness, death on a cross, like you're saying Ro. So, I know, everything gets flipped on its head. Yeah. So, greatness could really be defined biblically as obedience to God, serving others, and humility. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Surrender. Yeah, yeah. Well, that is what the great commandment, the greatest commandments are. Right? In Matthew 22, Jesus says in verse 38, "This is the great and first," Or in verse 37, "And he said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.'” So, yeah, to love is the greatest commandment, right? Right. Yep. And, "'Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.'" And so, that's like speaking to how, like that is like the epitome of greatness in terms of what love is, is to lay your life down for somebody. Which again was completely exemplified by Christ. Yeah. Which can be done in the three objectives of obedience, service, and humility. Not actually dying for somebody, though, that counts too. Yeah. Dying to our will. Yeah. Yes. It's also really paradoxical because like greatness seems to be kind of like a surrender of power to like the one who really has power, who truly has power. Right? Obviously, like the perfect love of God. Obviously, like Jesus being the ultimate, the all-powerful, surrendering power to him who's one with the Father. Right? Surrendering that power to the one who truly has power. Love, love itself or the spirit of love Himself. Yeah. I think that just greatness, that looking at it that way, I think it's clicking in my brain right now. Just the surrender of, surrender of power as like true greatness in Him. Right. I Love Psalm 145:3 says, "Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable." Like how great is God that you can't even define it? Yeah. Wow. Unsearchable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's upon reflecting on God's love for us and his sacrifice for us that we can say great is the Lord. Right? That. That's one of, I mean, he's, he is great in and of himself, but his, the Psalms are filled with declarations of acknowledging his mighty acts, not the least of which are his sacrifice for us and giving us life, redeeming us. The, even the prophecies within the Psalms speaking of Jesus are things that we can reflect upon in declaring the greatness of God. Like there's, it's just a whole 'nother, like, dimension of what it is about him that makes him great. It, that he loved us and sacrificed for us, that we would praise him for that in addition to anything—he was great, you know, from the foundation of the world, you know, you can always praise him for that—but it's very cool that that can be a thing to have in mind in declaring his greatness. Right. Because when you read that Scripture—I mean, I've heard it before, we've all heard before that, you know, have grown up in the church or whatever—but it's like when we talk about the greatness of God, yeah, the first thing that comes to my mind throughout the years is not him on a cross. It's creating the universe. It's creating. It's mighty works, mighty power, which again, it's just. Yeah. The greatest act of power was for him to die willingly on a cross. Yeah. That's like. Yeah. That's like another one of those brain shifters where. Yeah. How we define greatness. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, with that in mind, if we're gonna—I don't want to say redefine greatness—but if we're gonna look at it through the lens of Christ, who would say surrender and obedience and sacrifice and laying down your life. To me, it sounds like the desire for greatness, then with that definition, is a godly desire. Yeah. And it's almost like, to like nail it home, it's—where is it that it says that if he wanted to, he could call down angels? Right. Where, do you recall where that's at specifically? Or what that Scripture is exactly? You mean like at the temptation of Jesus? No. Like, to save him from what he was about to endure. Yeah. Well, it's almost like just to, like, hammer it home. It's like, I could, and yet I'm not. Yeah. And I think that, Jordan Peterson kind of talks, like, psychologically in those terms where it's like to know what you're capable of, but to be able to show the restraint or to do the right thing in those moments. I mean, that's like. That's such a cool thing. Like Jesus, just before he dies, he's like, yeah, I could, I could. I could. I could wipe everybody out, but I'm not going to. I mean, that's. That's greatness for sure, is to be able to do something but know what the higher calling is and to do that instead. Right. Yeah. Well, going off of your, going off of what you were saying, Ro, who's the greatest in the kingdom. Another verse, Matthew 18:1-5, it says, "At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, 'Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?' And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, 'Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 'Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,'" And so, it's another example of what great is, is to be childlike. And Matthew Henry has a commentary on this. It says, "Christ spoke many words of his sufferings, but only one of his glory; yet the disciples fasten upon that, and overlook the others. Many love to hear and speak of privileges and glory, who are willing to pass by the thoughts of work and trouble. Our Lord set a little child before them, solemnly assuring them, that unless they were converted and made like little children, they could not enter his kingdom. Children, when very young, do not desire authority, do not regard outward distinctions, are free from malice, are teachable, and willingly dependent on their parents. It is true that they soon begin to show other dispositions, and other ideas are taught them at an early age; but these are marks of childhood, and render them proper emblems of the lowly minds of true Christians. Surely we need to be daily renewed in the spirit of our minds, that we may become simple and humble, as little children, and willing to be the least of all. Let us daily study this subject, and examine our own spirits." So, what it means to be childlike, to be like little children coming to Christ. It's another way of looking at what it means to be great. It sounds like in the kingdom of heaven. And how often as we were children, being taught, hopefully—by parents, teachers, adults—what to do, what, like, I'm thinking of 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, and how it kind of gives examples of what love is. You could also kind of view that as this is what greatness is. Like, greatness, it's all. "Love is patient and kind." Well, greatness is patient and kind. Right? Because this is who God is. Yeah. Right. "Love does not envy or boast." Greatness does not envy or boast. I mean, these are traits that are shared is what I'm thinking. "It is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth." Says, "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends." Well, greatness also could be many of those things. Right? I mean, that is the great commandment. So. Right. Yeah. It's like, you see, like a CEO or like a professional sports player or like, you know, whoever we might say on this earth is great. But you attribute all the opposites of that? Yeah. Of, it's like they're not, like, no one thinks that they're great. They're just jerks. Like, they don't know how to handle themselves at all, and nobody cares what they have to say or think. Because they're not patient, they're not humbled, they're arrogant. It's like, yeah, so you can have a status, but if you don't have what love is, then you're not going to actually be great. Yeah. So, if you don't have Jesus, you don't have greatness. You just got stuff. True. It's true. Yeah. Stuff. You know, I would add, actually, I think that there's so many Scriptures throughout the Bible about how great God is. I mean, it really is the definition of great, right? And we love because he first loved us. We're great because he's great first. We have grace because he had grace. I mean, just, we're exemplifying Him. The world would tell us, as we have said, greatness is having the stuff, greatness is being the pinnacle of success, is, you know, fame, fortune, notoriety. But with God, it's really emulating Christ and being that person that fulfills the will of God and, you know, searches out, making him great, making his name great, letting people know who he is. Right. That's different. I love that. I love that the Christian faith and the Christian walk is so against what society says. I really do. Because it's so unfulfilling what society says. But this is so fulfilling to make the name of God great in your life and in the people around you and your actions and words. Yeah. I mean, and like a, like a natural disaster, to put things in perspective, right? Whether it's hurricanes or fires, it's like your stuff, your things, your status, it can go so quick. And then you're left with, well, all my stuff, my status, what I thought was important in this life, perhaps—if, you know, someone was bent to that persuasion—it's like, well, what do I do now? And so, it's like, yeah, if we don't have Jesus, it's like, then we're going to be in a really, really tough spot because we're not promised anything. We're not promised that these things that we've built up around us, that this is something that is, you know, quote unquote, "great" in the worldly economy. It's like, no, it's, that can leave in an instant. Yeah. Yeah. We're not even promised tomorrow. Right. Yep. And when those disasters happen, it doesn't take long for the volunteers, those helping, to quickly come to a place of prominence in the minds of those that are being helped—and outsiders looking at them—like, wow, now given the situation, like, wow, these people are, it's great that these people are helping. It's great, these are great volunteers. These are great first responders. These are the heroes in that situation. And it puts a spotlight on that activity when the need is there. And when the need is not there, it can be easy to forget or easy to get distracted and think other things are great. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Self-serving things appear to be great according to worldly standards. Right. What, what's the list of Ephesians? Do you still have that up? In Corinthians? Corinthians, yeah. List of Corinthians. You mean the love? Yeah, just like looking at that from the perspective of people who go there to help or first responders or people that give of themselves, right? Yeah. 1 Corinthians 13, starting at verse 4. "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends." Yeah. Sounds like first responders and volunteers a lot. Yeah. Which I think is another good point. Even as you're talking about that, I'm realizing like none of that feels very great in the moment. Like it doesn't feel like anything significant. It doesn't necessarily. I mean, you might, you might like, you know, travel down to California or wherever there might be a great fire and feel like I'm about to save the world. But like, I think generally speaking, when you just show up and love day in and day out, it doesn't really feel like greatness. It just feels like life as it is or some things you don't want to do necessarily. But that it is, it does translate in the kingdom of God to greatness. Right. That's why we don't lean too heavily on our feelings. Right. Just because it feels a certain way doesn't mean that it isn't great. Yeah. Well, yeah, because to the person who's lost a lot or lost everything, that rescue, that help means a lot. Yeah. All of a sudden that impact is very significant to that person who is receiving the help. Yeah. Good stuff. Well, closing thoughts. Great stuff. Great stuff. Oh. Great Scott. From good to great. From good to great. Who wrote that? It's in my blog. I can't remember what it. Jim Collins. Jim Collins. Going to go Jim Collins on this. Let's write From Great to Greater. That's my next book. From Great to Greater. Yeah. From Greater to Greatest. Greater to Greatest. The epic conclusion. Of the Cheese Grater. Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of greater? Yeah, I mean for me, it, circling back around to the woman at the well. Just how, I love how Jesus just sticks with us, and he meets us where we're at. And to your point, Mandy, calls us upwards and is always there to not like, expect more from us in like a, I'm disappointed in you, but like, I know what you're capable of and we're going to get higher on this plane because I mean, that's where Christ wants us to be, is to be more like him and understand things the way that they are. So, it's just. Yeah. I love how Jesus approaches us and how he'll hang with us. And even if we get a little bit moody or we get a little bit like, frustrated, it's like, yeah, he's not just going to go away. He's going to stick with us. Can handle it. I was thinking about Jesus. We joke about 30 years of walking on the earth and not really stepping into the ministry yet, but really it just shows how patient he is. And his timing really is everything. I mean, it's so easy to become upset about the timing of God and the things that he, you know, we look for, pray for, hope for, and you don't have those yet. And yet his timing was very intentional and it was very perfect for when he did step into ministry and finding the men that he would walk with those three years and everything about it. And my other thought was about John the Baptist. This is kind of blowing my mind. John the Baptist being the last of the Old Testament prophets and just this idea that. Yeah. Really is. And just this idea that he really did fulfill the purpose and mission that he was put on this earth for. And we all have that in us. Right? God has put us all here because we have a purpose and a mission to walk out and fulfill. And as long as you're breathing, you still have that to walk through. Yeah, it's good. I don't have any, like, epic final thoughts, but just the idea of love as, as a force. I mean, love is power, like love as power itself. I think just imitating that because I think the greater love we have, because Jesus showing that the greater, he surrenders in love with perfect love to the Father. I think us imitating him in that way of just loving. So, loving as a way to greatness. I think that's powerful. It's good. Yeah. I think I'll also be thinking about that for a while, about John the Baptist and his timing, his fulfilling what he came to do prior to Jesus dying and being resurrected. I've never thought of that before and I think that'll be sitting with me for a while, I think actually. And I think also this idea of seeking greatness is like. I don't. I've never really thought about that. I don't think I've ever had a desire for like achievement or anything in that matter. But I am thinking on around this time of the year. I mean, we're kind of circling the beginning of the year. And there's always things that I want to do and there's new things that I want to achieve. And I just, I'm feeling really at peace about, like if I pursue, just surrender to the Lord and allowing him to do the things that he wants to set up for the do that, or set out to do, then we'll see his, like, his plans to come to fruition. So that's where I'm at right now. John the Baptist. Yeah, he. We don't know for sure, but we know that his parents were kind of older and we don't know if he grew up in the desert like most of his childhood maybe. Maybe his parents passed on and he just. I don't know how long he was in the desert, but his life. Get CPS in there. I mean, his life could have been. The life that Jesus described as there was none greater than John the Baptist among the prophets, that life consisted of living in the desert and then getting beheaded. Right. And what did he do? Well, he spoke, you know, spoke to the politicians of the time and got rewarded by getting killed. So. And of course, Jesus is sacrificed on the cross, again one of the least by appearances, not a great way to finish out a life what that would appear on earth. Of course, he was resurrected in glory as his life unfolded more. So anyway, the greatness is, definitely needs a redefining in our minds, I think, on what greatness is. These are examples of what greatness is. And it's a word that I'll probably try to use more carefully. Yeah, no kidding. In describing what. That cheesesteak was great. I mean, it probably was, but geez, no kidding. That's crazy. You know, I mean, greatness is, there are, the Bible has a different definition of greatness than our common use of the word it would seem. So. Yeah. That's for sure. Anyway. Well, great discussion everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode very soon. Take care everybody. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. The ESV text may not be quoted in any publication made available to the public by a Creative Commons license. The ESV may not be translated in whole or in part into any other language.