S2 E15 | "Signs" | Bible Study John 4:46-54

I heard a joke. Yeah? Okay. Let me see if I can remember it. I think it has to do with miracles. This is a really good start. I think it has to do with miracles. I've never told a joke before. It's a cold open right here. Cold open. So, there's a preacher. Okay, so. Is that a clue so we know how to laugh? Or, when? This is the funny part. Okay. So, the preacher looks at the man in the crowd and he's like, "And now, walk." And so, the man stands up and he starts walking. And then he's like, "What do you have to say about this miracle of God?" And he goes, "Well, I still can't see." I guess that is like a miracle driven one, huh? Yeah. You get it? I get it. Or it's like. Like when I broke my arm and I went to the doctor and I was like, "Will I be able to play the guitar now?" He's like, "Of course." And I was like, "I've never taken a lesson in my life." That's funny. Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including education, coaching, management, ministry, and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times. My name is Chris. I'm your host once again. We are joined, of course, with psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll, special education teacher Robyn Nelson, licensed mental health counselor associate Rogelio Navarro, and from Reach Ministry, Mandy Michaels. Welcome back, everybody. Howdy. All right. All right. All right. We are moving through the book of John. We're in John chapter 4, looking at verses 46-54 today. We're going to focus on the words, "signs and wonders." I'll read out of the ESV. "So he came again to Cana in Galilee," this is speaking of Jesus, "where he had made the water wine. And at Capernaum there was an official whose son was ill. When this man heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. So Jesus said to him, 'Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.' The official said to him, 'Sir, come down before my child dies.' Jesus said to him, 'Go; your son will live.' The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way. As he was going down, his servants met him and told him that his son was recovering. So he asked them the hour when he began to get better, and they said to him, 'Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.' The father knew that was the hour when Jesus had said to him, 'Your son will live.' And he himself believed, and all his household. This was now the second sign that Jesus did when he had come from Judea to Galilee." So, Jesus is at the place where he did his prior miracle and sounds like there could have been quite a following at his return there. People expecting things once again. So, we'll go with opening thoughts around the table and then talk more about this passage here. We're talking about signs and wonders in this passage. Dr. Jon. Yes, sir. So, my first kind of opening thought is I thought it was kind of interesting, like so many times Jesus' response is not in line with what the person says. First Nicodemus, then the woman at the well, and now this. And by, in this example, what came, what struck me is I'll just kind of reread it again starting with verse 47. "When this man heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. So Jesus said to him, 'Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.' The official said to him, 'Sir, come down before my child dies.'" It's, and so, and then "Jesus said . . .'Go;'" your son will be healed, "'your son will live.'" And what I think is kind of a little bit of a crack up is like the guy, the guy didn't seem like he even like caught on to where Jesus was even going. Because Jesus says this thing that seems a little bit kind of out of left field as far as he's concerned. And then he just says, okay, so come down and heal my son. After he says, you know, unless you see sign and wonders, signs and wonders, you will not believe. So again, Jesus is speaking to something, it, deeper than what the current situation is. And what kind of struck me is it seems that in this situation, Jesus is telling us that belief is more important than physical health, even of that of a child. And that just kind of like struck me a bit because you just go straight to belief when we're talking about a life and death situation. So yeah, wanting to see signs and wonders and then how believing, you know, unless you see sign and wonders, you will not believe. So, Jesus highlights that in the moment of this guy's probably most difficult thing that he's ever experienced. It's interesting I had the same, similar, that caught me, my attention too. It almost seems a bit harsh, the response. Like, unless you people see signs and wonders, you won't believe. And I love that in Jesus' day I bet there was so much a following of people that wanted to see magic tricks, right? They wanted to see Jesus do like he did with wine. You know, he did kind of what we would think is a magic trick. But his heart was for the man's heart. You know, it's kind of a two-for-one deal. Like, he didn't want to just heal the boy, he wanted the man's heart in the process. And to do that, that man had to get to that place where he could believe that Jesus didn't have to come physically, but could say it from 20 miles away. He's done. It's done. And I love, I love that the man's response was, I believe. Like, I believe that. What an incredible gift of faith and belief in that moment for him to just say, it's done. Let's go. Yeah. I feel like with signs and wonders, there's a lot of mystery in there as well, as far as, like, when God chooses to like, grant this man a sign or the healing of his son and which he's asking for. And I know like, Jesus chooses that. And so, I know the man isn't saying like, hey, Jesus, if you don't show me a sign and a wonder, I'm not going to believe you. He's not testing Jesus, but he is coming and putting his faith in like, hey, I think you can heal my son. And he's saying that to the Lord. And so, I think the Lord is, is kind of like choosing to show signs and wonders and to like, kind of confirm his belief. But I think I'm just kind of like reflecting on how like signs and wonders are still kind of mysterious in that they can't be demanded. So, it's still like the Lord's timing and the Lord's will. So, yeah, so I'm just reframing it. Like, I wouldn't ask, like, "Lord, show me this. If you want me to believe in you, I need to see this," right? That would be kind of the opposite of what's actually happening. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that Jesus is like approached with this request and then he makes it about something that it seemingly is not about. The way I read it is like this man is coming to him with a request and Jesus is saying, you wouldn't believe except for signs and wonders. And the man just doubles down and he's like, I just need you to heal my son. And the way I, the way I interpret this is that he's not looking for like, their magic trick or like, or even for Jesus to prove himself. Which I think a lot of, there's a lot of that that does happen in Jesus' time where there's a lot of people trying to catch him out or they're just want to see something. But he's really like, he's, I just need you to heal my son. And so, I thought it was interesting that Jesus took that opportunity because Jesus isn't wrong. Like, he's trying to make a point. Like, I'm inclined to be like, "Jesus, you're missing the point." Like, but he's obviously not. He's Jesus. So, like, I think he's using it as an opportunity to I think just kind of capitalize on, like, I hear your, like I hear your need here, but it, I'm about to perform this for you in a way that you aren't expecting me to perform it. Because he kept saying, come with me. And Jesus just sent forth his word instead. And so, it was just a different. I mean, it's kind of like in The Office. You familiar with The Office a little bit? I've heard of it. Yesh. Yesh. So, there's this one episode where like, Dwight is out and about. I forget why. And then Pam calls him and she's like, hey, while you're out, will you pick up like toilet paper or paper towels or something? And I'm like, he's like, well, I'm kind of busy and blah, blah. She's like, well, I just thought if you're. He's like, Pam, shut up. I'm obviously gonna do those things for you. And that's kind of what this reminds me of. Like, Jesus was always intending on doing it, but he's kind of making another point in the process. He's maybe just not harsh as Dwight. Right. Maybe a little more serious. I think that was word for word, actually. Was it? Yeah, it is, it is interesting. There's probably a lot of different players there, you know, in the, in this scene. There's the man who came, yeah, like Mandy said, from miles away. And then there most likely is a crowd, a crowd of people from Cana who are anticipating something to happen, a miracle, something to just. They're observers, they're spectators. Right? Most likely. And the word "you" that Jesus uses, it, in the notes here, it says it's plural. Unless you all. Unless y'all see signs and wonders, you won't believe, you know. Alabama Jesus. But yeah, the man with the child, the miracle is done through him. But it does appear that the larger focus, Jesus is more focused on belief being the end result from that. And it is cool how the man, he says, "The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him," but later on it says after the healing he says, "And he himself believed." So, there's like a difference between believing the word that Jesus spoke and then believing actually in Jesus. It seems like there's a progression of increased faith, like one thing led to the other. And I think that's what Jesus' intent was to happen, was that first believe the word, or as it says, in other portions of Scripture like, to paraphrase, perhaps, at least believe the miracles as a stepping-stone to believing in Jesus, in his entirety of who he is and what he offers. Yeah. So. Yeah, it seems, that struck me too because the word "believe" or "believed" is used three times in that portion of Scripture. And it seems like the middle believed is different than the first and the third. So, Jesus says, "'Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.'" In the second time is, "The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way." Then the third time is, "And he himself believed, and all his household." So, it's like the believed in what Jesus was going to do is different than the bookends believe, which is believe in the greater, the greater thing that's going on here. That's good. Yeah. In the Matthew Henry commentary, he says something like the man was leisurely going home because he did believe. Like, which is probably opposite from his time from Capernaum to Jesus. He's probably frantically coming to Jesus. Sure. But because of believing in his word, he leisurely went home. Right. And then the healing, he finds out, had taken place at the hour. So. I have to wonder, on his way, clearly, he went to Jesus for a reason. There is a 20-mile journey there and he went to Jesus because there had to be something there—some kind of, I don't know if you would call it belief or desire or just desperation of a father to save his son—but there had to be something to drive him there that was probably a lot of that catalyst as well to that belief. Yeah. Probably not too dissimilar, maybe, then from the woman with the issue of bleeding where all I need to do is get to him. And it's interesting that, this is interesting that Jesus' response in this situation was different than the situation with hers. And maybe it was because it's plural, the "you" is plural, and there was more of a teaching moment there. Yeah. He was likely not just talking to the man, but the whole crowd. Right? Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know what like strikes me? Like, I feel like in the world if we want to know something is true, we kind of like, look for evidence first and we have to see kind of hard evidence. But I kind of feel like it's a little bit the other way around with God. I kind of feel like when you believe, especially when you really put your faith in God, I feel like that actually opens, like, the ability to see more clearly. It's almost like you, like when you believe in God, you then you actually see more of, like, what he wants to tell you and who he is in Scripture. And it's like this increase in, like, perspective, right? Yeah. So, you have to believe in God first. So, faith is, feels like different than believing in things of the world in that way. Yeah, absolutely. I heard it—let's see if I can put it correctly. Someone said you can use a chair analogy where you have belief that the chair can hold you when you sit down and that faith is actually sitting in the chair and knowing that it'll hold you up. Well, and I think with this, I mean, he was an official of Rome, and so it's believed that he probably had a lot of money and he probably already exhausted whatever resource he could have in order to see his son healed and doing well. And I think probably similar to the woman with the issue of blood. Maybe she, I don't know her financial situation. I guess I don't know this guy's either. But, like, you know. Probably exhausted a lot of resources to try to fix it. Yeah. But done whatever you can. And then hearing that this guy, like, walks through town and he's performing signs and miracles. Maybe that's what Jesus was getting at too. Like, maybe he knew that he'd heard out his signs and wonders and whatnot. And then he's like, well, maybe this guy can do it, like. Right. And I think we've touched on that a little bit before, too. But even that can be its own measure of faith, of, like, I might as well. Like, what has he got to lose? Right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And how often, I suppose, is it in our lives where coming to Jesus is the last resort, where it's like, I've already spent my money, I've seen doctors, I've done all these things that I can do. Maybe I'll go to Jesus now. And it's like, I mean, and no, you know, nothing throwing out this guy or anything like that, but it's like, it's, because I'm including myself in that, which is, how many times have I been like, "Oh, yeah, maybe I should bring Jesus into the equation in this problem that I'm currently having." Wonder what would have happened if it was first. And the pendulum swings all the other way, right? Where we think he's like a vending machine. Like, "Jesus, I'd like X, Y, and Z, please." Put your coins in. Yeah. A little prayer here and there. Well, that's what I think is interesting about this story too, is like, you could argue that he, this official, was advocating something of Jesus that he didn't necessarily need, but he wanted really bad. And I, I mean, like, that's a hard line to draw. I think anybody would want their child to live, but it, like, necessarily needing. And I, I know for me, sometimes I'm like, "Do I really need this from the Lord? Should I even bother asking?" And it really is like, it, that isn't, that isn't the point so much as, like, I'm desperate for the Lord to intervene in this situation. So. Yeah. And I guess that would be the difference in my mind of like, looking at as like a vending machine thing. But it really is something that he, technically speaking, could have lived without, it just would have been awful. You know? Yeah. And I just. Yeah. I just come back to what I said before. Like, it's crazy how in the midst of this guy's like, most probably trying moment, Jesus talks about belief. Right. That's just kind of a trip to me. Right. He's like this. You're like, "As a therapist." It's just like, that's, that's pretty wild. Yeah. I think you find that throughout all of Scripture, right? Where you see what is on the surface, but God wanted to go so much deeper than the surface level. And there's always, everywhere, you find so much more out of the Scripture than what's, what's right there. I love it because it appears as if Jesus is like the worst at transitions. It's just like someone's saying something, it's just like, "What?" Yeah. But obviously it's like, mind blowing where he goes. Yeah. That's because his perspective is different than ours. Yeah. Yeah. And in that last part of the Book of Mark, chapter 16, starting in verse 15, says, "And he said to them, 'Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.'" So, this is like his main focus, right? "'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'" So, he's talking about belief. Evangelism and belief. "'And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;'" and "'they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.'” So, these are signs that are in support of the greater goal of proclaiming the gospel and belief, baptism and being saved. Right? That's like his top priority. All those other things are like in support of that. Right. Yeah. And those things have an end point, right? There's a temporary aspect to all of those signs. Those things are not eternal. It's like when Jesus sent out the 72 in the book of Luke. It says in chapter 10, verse 1, "After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go." Verse 17, "The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!' And he said to them, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.'" Right. So, he kind of puts the sign in perspective. And if he puts the sign of the demons in perspective—eternal life is more important—well, same thing with perhaps the other signs. Right? Right. The healing, the speaking in tongues. Those are tools to bring more people into belief, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, there's a quote. It says, "Most miracles seem to be focused on the physical and we're very physical-oriented as a people. It's almost like Jesus' response when it came to signs and wonders was his knowing how powerful they are and their ability to over-captivate those who witness them. It's easy for us to witness or experience the miracle and believe the miracle itself was the end and not the means. If a sign or miracle is the means, then Jesus is the end. If we're not careful, we may become satisfied with the good at the expense of the great." I have yet to see a pastor drink poison as a sign of miracle. You ever seen some snake handling? No, I don't want to see either. That's been a thing. But this reminds me of being in India on a missions trip. There was a pastor there that had the gift of healing. And the people of India have just a myriad—leprosy, the whole, the works. And he would have, the crowds would just come running and everybody, everybody he touched would be healed. And as soon as he got a crowd, he would stop healing people and start preaching the gospel. And he told us, like, God gave him that gift, not so he could spend his time healing, but so he could draw the crowd to tell them about Jesus because it was about their eternal bodies and not just the physical today. Yeah. You know, this, the healing with this blind man who can see and ends up testifying in the temple to the Sanhedrin, I mean, sorry, to the Pharisees and the parents come and they're like, you know, was your son blind? Can he see? Well, like Jesus heals his, I mean physically, his body and he can now visually see. But also, he says to the man, and go and sin no more. So, it seems like there's also this kind of more spiritual or more kind of long-lasting healing that has to do with more of the eternal healing of our soul. Right. And so, I think that can be maybe part of the, some of the miracles, the healing miracles there. Yeah, well, and it's like the lepers that were healed, right? And one of them came back to thank Jesus. But that's so human of us where it's like we're, we finally have the relief or we got the thing that we want and we're like, okay, cool. And then we're on to the next thing. And Jesus time and time again when it comes to signs and miracles, he's like, this isn't what it's about. This is again a means to an end. This isn't the end itself. But that's so like us just to get the miracle or get the, I don't know, we can get so excitable and then it's off we go. Yeah. Well, yeah, the regenerated life is a miracle in and of itself, right? Like living without sin anymore, that's, that's like, that's pretty impressive. I mean, you know, to go and sin no more, to do not sin anymore, the work of the Holy Spirit in a person to get to that point, sinning less, you know. Yeah. It's a good start. Although if there is sin, there's forgiveness. But yeah, the life that is following Jesus is like the miracle, the main miracle, right? Right. To your point, Jon, I feel like the miracle can almost be like, like the fascination of the miracle can be like a little idol or something. It's. Oh yeah. Like we forget like, I mean even like if somebody with, was a non-believer of, even if they saw a miracle, like that doesn't mean they would necessarily give their heart to the Lord. Right? So, we can become caught up in, like, oh, something incredible happened and somebody could still just walk away from that and be, and see a miracle, and it doesn't mean anything if their heart wasn't converted. Right. The Hebrews, as they left Egypt, how many things that they witnessed and saw and how quick they were to turn away from that and build a golden calf. Yeah. Quick. Yeah. That's how. That's how futile. What's the word I'm looking for? Maybe fickle. Fickle. That's it. Fickle we are. After everything they lived through and so. Right? Yeah. But don't we have the same thing in our lives? I mean, I've seen miracles left and right, and I still have that moment. Sure. Yeah. "Where are you, God?" Yeah. "Why?" Prove yourself to me again. Well, what do you think about this thought that the signs—and let me just read the Greek definition of that here. The word in Greek, it says, it could be interpreted, "Sign, miracle, token, indication." And it says here in the HELPS Word-studies, "a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. [This word] then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it." So, the end purpose, the end result. "Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the [New Testament] for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for." The sign of, like speaking in tongues. It happened at the time of, in the Book of Acts, a lot of people were saved. Right? Because they heard it was like a miracle for the purpose of evangelism. And that's a sign that tends to be—nowadays, I think, viewed within the church, it, I don't see it—or I just wonder if it's being exercised for purposes of evangelism the same way it was at the initial time. Same thing with healing. Is it being used for the purpose of evangelism in the same way it was in, like, this case with Jesus? Or is it more like an internal gathering of believers for the purpose of healing, which is also necessary. But I just wonder, is the main purpose of it, has it always been, to cause belief in those who were otherwise unbelievers? Well, yeah. Signs and wonders. It's not for relief. It's for redemption. And that's, I guess, what it ultimately is for. I mean, relief is a part of it, but the point is redemption. And if the relief doesn't go to redemption, then the relief falls flat. So, the relief needs to point to the redemption. And Jesus has compassion on those who— 100% Who are sick or have died like he wept when Lazarus died. So, he, God understands that. It's just the, in the list of priorities, you know, eternal life is, having your name written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that takes precedence over, yeah. Chris, I like how you mentioned the word confirmation when you were talking about signs. And they confirm something for the sake of testimony and evangelization and kind of confirm something about who Jesus is. And so, I'm still kind of breaking that down. Even the definitions, like signs, wonders, miracles. But something that, you know, a sign is, is that it points to something. And those signs point to the Lord being who he says he is. So, like some of those signs, it brings to mind, like when Jesus, like, heals the man who is sitting by the pool of, it's called, actually it's called the Pool of Bethesda. And anyway, so there's that man on the Sabbath who's like a paralytic, and he can't get to the pool, and so he heals him on the Sabbath, right? And then so later when, I mean, Jesus leaves and so like, the elders are questioning him, like, wait, who healed you? Like, who did what now? Like, on the Sabbath? Where is that guy? Like, that's unacceptable, right? Like, that just kind of gives more testimony again, like, and it's kind of confirmation of like, the Lord being who he says he is. And so maybe that's, that just helps me understand what a sign is. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. Yeah. And kind of random little thought, but it's kind of interesting that we've, that the word that we have to point us in the right direction on the road, in a mall, is a sign. Right? And so, it's, I mean, that's where the joke is, "Show me a sign, God." Then. Yeah. Whatever. But that's what a sign is. It points you in the direction of where you're supposed to go. And a sign and a wonder points us towards Jesus. Well, I'll just go back really quick, a little supplemental verse to what we're talking about, like the reason, like why signs and miracles happen. So, in John 20, verse 30, this is after Thomas wanted proof that it was Jesus. And so, I'll just read that account really quick and then I'll finish with the verse that I want to highlight. So, verse 26 says, "Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them," which is a trip in itself, "and said, 'Peace be with you.' Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.' Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'" Now the next verse says, "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." And so that kind of sums it really up right there, that verse 30, he gives these signs that you may believe in Christ so that you may have life in his name. I think it's interesting that the Bible says that he, the man believed. "The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way." Like, when I first read that, like, not even for studying for this, I feel like this was just a couple weeks ago, and I was like, serious conviction, because I don't think I even have that kind of faith half the time. Like, how many things that Jesus has spoken, and it would be nice to just take him at his word, but often we don't. And like you mentioned, like, this is like a probably a 20-mile trek that this guy had. And so, Jesus said, like, your son is healed. And he turns around and he just goes on his way. And it says that he believed him. Like, and I just wonder what that walk looked like between, like, Jesus said this happened and then it says he believed him. But I'm just trying to think of, like, if I were in that position, between I'm just leaving what Jesus said and then on my way to see the fulfillment of that, like, is the doubt creeping in? Is there like, and he doesn't have like a long history with Jesus either. Like, this is it. I've got like 22 years of knowing the Lord. And he's like, hey, Robyn, this is gonna happen. I'm like, well, okay. Walk back home kicking rocks. Well, maybe it will. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. And I'm looking for. And then even then, like, looking for more signs or like, more confirmation, more clarity on something. And I just think that this, like, even the Bible, like, the Bible says it so it must be true, that this man just walked away believing that Jesus, what Jesus said is going to happen. It's something. It's interesting you say that because I feel like the Lord's been convicting me that I'm always asking for, like the second and the third confirmation of things. Right? Just one more. Just one more. Yeah. And just really that, just that absolute belief, like, he said it's finished. He said it's done. And walk that out and speak that out and live that out. There's so many, it seems like when Jesus was calling his disciples, he would say, you know, come, follow me. You know, come with me. And then with this man that asked his son to be healed, the man says to Jesus, "'Sir, come down before my child dies.'" Jesus says to him, "'Go.'" So, in this case, obedience to Jesus is not to cling on to him and say, well, no, you, I need you to be physically here with him. It's to obey Jesus and just do what he said. He said to go. A similar thing happened when Jesus healed those 10 lepers. It says here in, wait for it. Wait for it. He has the gift of flight. He has the power to heal leopards. Did you say leopards? Yeah. It's on The Office. Who am I? It's The Office episode. All creative things. I've been holding back for quite some time. So sorry, Chris. That's okay. So, yeah, in Luke 17, beginning in verse 11, "On the way to Jerusalem he was passing along between Samaria and Galilee. And as he entered a village, he was met by ten lepers, who stood at a distance and lifted up their voices, saying, 'Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.' When he saw them he said to them, 'Go and show yourselves to the priests.' And as they went they were cleansed." So, another example where Jesus says, go, and the obedience is what was then followed up by the healing, it would seem, or instantly in the case of the man. Well, it seemed like with go, I don't know about the lepers, but with the official, he went, and then his whole household believed also. And so, I'm curious, I wonder, I would imagine at least some of the 10 lepers, they probably had an impact as far as being influential and people believing in Jesus also. And so, I think that goes back to what we were already talking about. The purpose of the miracle is to spread the word of Christ, to say, look, this is about belief, it's not about the miracle. So, it is interesting with those two accounts. It's go right after the miracle happens. Like, don't stay. Don't just stay here and just, like, just hang out and marinate in this, you know, cool thing that just happened. Like, go and, like, let people know, like, who did it and the point of it. Yeah. You know, I think it's interesting, just caught my attention is that he did get confirmation because it said on the seventh hour, the same time Jesus was speaking it. Yeah. So, it was, I think that what probably was that catalyst towards from that faith to that belief, right? Or the two different beliefs. That was probably the moment where it switched from, he believed that Jesus would say what he would say, and then the belief of who Jesus actually is and what he offers as far as salvation is concerned. Maybe that was the moment where he's like, it happened at this exact time that you talked to Jesus and that probably hit him different. Yeah. That's so cool. Which was sooner than the man possibly could have expected his child to be healed, as he began his journey. He actually thought he would have to take Jesus the 20 miles or whatever in order for the boy to be healed. Yeah. But because it happened well in advance of that, prior to the journey it would take to get back there, that is actually going above and beyond what the man's expectations would have been. Right? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You know what's hard about that example is like he believes and then he gets healing instantly for his son. But like, believing won't necessarily mean that we get instant healing. True. So, yeah. That's just an interesting one that, you know, really is kind of ultimately, I don't know, the mind of God. So, like, God has a timing around healing too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What's the song? I think it's called, "Even If," and that song in particular is, I feel like for the Christian, if they can grab on to a viewpoint in a mindset like that, like, even if you don't heal or even if you don't do things that I want you to do, you're still God. Like, you're, you're still worthy, you're still good. And so, I think that's, I guess, to your point, Ro, that sometimes we do believe that God will heal, but he doesn't. But again, it's not the point. It's towards the belief in Christ. And so, I guess that's what we can rejoice in, is knowing that we still have eternity and salvation, even though perhaps in the moment we're disappointed, the outcome wasn't what we want it to be. Yeah. And we can still trust that God wants to heal us, but maybe it'll be very different than how or when. And so that belief that we hang on to, we have guarantee of healing in Christ somehow, even if we can't see it or not, the way that I thought. Well, in, since, I mean, I think that's also why he makes it clear that in heaven there's not going to be pain, there's not going to be tears. And so, I think that that's, I mean, I don't think some people like to, it kind of sounds like maybe like for the unbeliever, perhaps, like borderline cop-out. It's like, okay, so you're good after you die. Right? But I mean, that's as much of a reality as this side of eternity is. They're both real. And so, if the choice of God is that you'll be healed on the other side, awesome. That's great. I think actually also it goes back to that man's walk back home. How many times did he say, is this for real? Is this? And that was part of his process of belief, is to hold on to that staunchly and to keep declaring it and keep holding on to that faith. And I think that as believers, that's our part. Right? And healing is to declare it and receive it and just speak it over ourselves. Reminds me of Pastor Wendell from City Church, who absolutely 100% believed he was healed from day one, to day, the last day, and that healing didn't come in the way that he expected. And yet he still got so many more years on this earth. Right. Because. And what would it have looked like if he hadn't held onto that? Right. How quickly would he have expired? You know? This is a really personal angle too. But like, for example, you know, with healing, things like emotional, you know, depression and things like that, sometimes in the medical field, they actually call that "spontaneous remission." When symptoms leave and somebody's like, no longer in a paralyzed state of depression, they might actually not really know why necessarily. And they can write spontaneous remission. And the same thing goes for physical illnesses. If they can't explain it, they'll say spontaneous remission. But, like, it could be a miracle. I'm not saying they all are, but when things aren't explainable, it's like, oh, the symptoms went away. And then do we just forget about it? Because maybe sometimes, I mean, at least in my experience, I know what it's like to be lifted from a crippling depression. Like, I, I'm not afraid to admit that I've been in that place. Sure. And so, to me, I give God all the credit and, right? And I can just forget about it. But I don't forget about it because I realize it wasn't just like a fluke occurrence to me, like, because I know what it was. And so, like, again, healing can happen not just in the early church, like back in the days that Jesus walked the earth. It happens now, and it does. But not to over sensationalize it, because that's the other extreme is like we can just say everything's a miracle just for the sake of display, like, right? Like TV miracles or whatever. But no. But there still are healings now. You know, cancer leaves some people, not others. But again, God knows why. Yeah. I would like to throw in that we at Reach Ministry have had 20 people, 20 people overdose in front of us and die. Or we've come across a body 20 times. Literally no pulse, no breath, they're turning blue. They're goners. And all 20 of them have come back. All 20. And that's because we've prayed for them, we've Narcanned them, we've called 911, we've done CPR, we've done our due diligence. But the first responders do not have a 100% success rate. There's a huge something there. Right? There's something big to speak into that, that you have all these people that have this absolute faith, like God, you can do it. Let's go. Yeah. I personally prayed for a gal who had her, her arm in a sling and she was having shoulder surgery that week. Prayed over her. And I, I'm brave enough to admit there was part of me that just didn't have this faith this nobleman did, right? And I had a little bit of doubt with that. And the very next week, she came and she's windmilling her arm and she's saying, God healed me. God healed me. I don't even have to have surgery. I mean God, God is amazing. He's so good. He really does want to heal us. I think that we get a part to play in that. Yeah. Yeah. And like the Word says, every good gift comes from God. So, if it is good, it is from him. And so, I mean. Yeah, to your point, Ro. It's like, yeah, we don't want to. It might. Some people might. When we say, like, well, everything, like it was a miracle. It's a miracle. It's a miracle. I mean, kind of. I think actually, it's like if it. If good gifts could even be described as a miracle, which I think, like the God that created everything wants to bestow on us something good. I mean, that's kind of miraculous just in itself. So, it's kind of. Yeah. I mean, every good gift comes from him. Every baby, every newborn baby is a miracle. Absolutely. Amen. It was almost, it was Jesus' norm. What is a miracle to us is just his norm. Right. Yeah, yeah. You know, something cool about that? Like the gift giver or like God—right? —who get, who performs a healing or a miracle. At the end of the day—right? —it should bring us closer to him and draw us more into his heart and to love him back. And it's kind of, it brings up this image of like being a kid. You know, when you're a kid and like maybe your parents give you a Christmas gift or something. And so, you're just so focused on the gift and you're like, whoa, yeah, I love this. And you just completely forget to even acknowledge who gave it to you. Yeah. Or to even say thank you. Like you just don't care. You're. And that can happen. Right? I think we talked about that. We can get, with the gift, we can get so obsessed with the gift and we don't even see the point of like. Right. It's not even about really the gift. It's like who, you know, it's who I'm in relationship with. Sure. Yep. Yeah. It's good. I think it's interesting that it's more than one time that Jesus seemingly gets annoyed at the signs and the wonders, like when he performed something, because the people's approach when they're kind of missing the mark. And so, bear with me for a second because it's going to be a little bit of a journey. Okay. So, in John 20, there's the account of Thomas. And Jesus' reply to him, was, “'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'” And then there's Matthew 12:38-40 says, "Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, 'Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.'” Which kind of a funny way, just to start the whole thing with, teacher, show us a sign, give us a trick. "But he answered them," he said, "'An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'" And then there's John 6:25-27. Says, "When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, 'Rabbi, when did you come here?' Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you.'" Which in that particular account was kind of funny because Jesus is like, you're not even coming here because of the signs, you're just coming here because you're hungry. I mean, that's like a step. You want more food. That's like a step lower. But there's always this. There's always this, like, come on, guys. Like, like, why, Like. And so, I was kind of curious, like, why is it that Jesus, I mean, obviously, other than the fact that people are not focusing on the point? But in the book of Exodus, I'm going to start with Exodus 3:18. I'm going to jump to Exodus 4. This is Moses talking to God when God is ushering Moses into becoming, you know the Moses that we know from the Bible, right? Says, "'And they will listen to your voice, and you and the elders of Israel shall go to the king of Egypt and say to him, "The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us; and now, please let us go a three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God."'" And jump into Exodus 4:1-9. "Then Moses answered, 'But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, "The Lord did not appear to you."' The Lord said to him, 'What is that in your hand?' He said, 'A staff.' And he said, 'Throw it on the ground.' So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent, and Moses ran from it. But the Lord said to Moses, 'Put out your hand and catch it by the tail'—so he put out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand—'that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.' Again, the Lord said to him, 'Put your hand inside your cloak.' And he put his hand inside his cloak, and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous like snow. Then God said, 'Put your hand back inside your cloak.' So he put his hand back inside his cloak, and when he took it out, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh. 'If they will not believe you,' God said, 'or listen to the first sign, they may believe the latter sign. If they will not believe even these two signs or listen to your voice, you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground, and the water that you shall take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground.'" So, there's this account that has belief and it has signs. And it's like you all are acting like what I had to do with the Egyptians to let your, to let you all out of there in the first place. The signs were meant in this instance to, you know, relieve you so that you could worship me. Again, it was like a means to an end so that the Israelites could worship God because they couldn't under Egyptian rule. And so, it's just interesting. It's like y'all are acting, like, I did this for the Egyptians. I did this to free you. And now you're bringing this in. Like, it's, you're off kilter. So, I don't know, it just kind of got, like, it kind of made sense to me, like, perhaps why Jesus gets annoyed when people are like, show us a sign. It's like, well, that's what the Egyptians wanted. That's what they required in order to finally take me seriously. It really brings to light that Scripture about without faith, it is impossible to please him. Like, and we're just seeing evidence of that. Like, he's pretty annoyed. Like, everyone needs a sign to confirm something that we shouldn't necessarily need a sign for. Well, it's like if you're alive on Earth and you're aware that you're alive, you look around you, this is the most complex, just crazy, I mean—if you want to say, "coincidence," which is ridiculous—from the positioning of the Earth to the fact that we have an organic computer between our ears. It's nuts. It's nuts. Yeah. I think it's interesting that, just a funny side note, that God wanted to take them home into the Promised Land. That was the goal. And he wants to bring us home into the Promised Land. Yeah, a lot of parallel. There's a lot of parallel there. Yeah. Yeah. Like, even the way that he performed this miracle, he did do it. And I'm wondering, I don't know for sure, but I'm wondering if this is like the first account we have where he performs a miracle where he's not physically present for it. And I wonder if this is just a kind of foreshadowing of him, you know, leaving us with the Holy Spirit, and then the next miracles that we see thereafter, he's not physically present with us to conduct those miracles. I don't think Jesus has a problem with miracles. I think it's that we, like, we misinterpret the heart behind, like, we've probably spent the last however long we've been recording talking about that, but. Right. I think that there was something significant there, that he was kind of setting them up for the future that they were gonna have without him being physically there, but. So many layers to every teaching. Yeah. Yeah. Because the guy was like, hey, come with me to heal my kid. And he, and then he responds with that, well, you won't believe unless you see it kind of thing. And he's like, just, please come with me. He doubles down like, please do this. And so, he did do it. He just didn't do it how the official asked him to do it. Right. Yeah. He also showed a sign of faith by doubling down, right? Yeah. He was like I know you can. I got to, you know, you got me, you can do this. I wonder if that pleased Jesus. Like, you know, like, I think that was an evidence of faith. Yeah. He came back. Like, I know you can do this. So. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, another thought about signs and wonders and a little bit of a different approach. So, in Luke 16:19-31, there's the account of the rich man and Lazarus. And the rich man dies, and then he meets Lazarus, who he neglected on earth. So, starting with verse 19. Says, "'There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame." But Abraham said, "Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us." And he said, "Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."'" And so, sometimes even a miracle, I mean, the signs and wonders, that's not the cure all. That's not going to be the thing. That's crazy that Abraham would say. Like, even if somebody raised from the dead, they wouldn't necessarily believe. And so what I kind of took away from that is if he, if, it was enough for him to have Moses and the prophets to be able to say, to be enough information to say, like, no, you had the information and now we have Jesus and we have the entire New Testament. It's like, how much more then, responsibility, do we have knowing everything that we know now? If Lazarus was, or if the rich man and Lazarus, if the rich man, it's like, hey, you've got Moses and the prophets. I mean, that's just, the standards just, we have so much more now and it's amazing that we do. I was just thinking, because I was on my way to church this morning, and I was praying and I had to like repent because I remember talking to the Lord about something that I was asking for clarity on. And I remember telling somebody else, like, even if God gave me clarity, I wouldn't believe him on it. Like, that's just where I was at on it and hadn't, having to like, repent to the Lord. Like, even if you were to give me this like, quote unquote "sign" or like "wonder" or you know, just like confirm something to me, I was just in that space where I was like, I just wouldn't believe it. And I think that's funny that you just brought that up right there. Like, like, it's like he literally could raise someone from the dead. You still be like, nah, like, it's just like where your faith is at, you know? Right. It'd be like doubting Thomas saying, well, even if I did put my hand in the holes in his side, I would, I mean he didn't say that, but it'd be like a step of, beyond that. I think the point being is, like, we, sometimes we're like searching, searching, searching, searching. And the reality is, like you're saying, like, Jesus already laid this all out. At some point, the, like, the onus is on us to take God at His word. It doesn't really matter all these external circumstances or extra signs or whatever. It's just that at a certain point, like, we're the ones that need to turn and recognize, like, what God did is enough. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's kind of where I was going with that. Not just so everyone knows that I'm a failure. But yeah. Why need another spectacle? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're already like, I. Like, I came to this realization. I was like, I literally said I wouldn't even believe him if he did it. Like. Well, this was for you. Or how easily we would try to write it off, right? Yeah. Like in The Chosen, which is conjecture, but they have the Pharisees with the story of Lazarus saying, oh, he was just hiding. Like, they just had him in the background to make this miracle up. Yeah. Right. So, I think we can make excuses instead of. And we can do that with literally anything. We could, I mean, any miracle that God could do, we can reason it away if we, if that is our mindset. And it's kind of like you're saying with the, like, we are predisposed to believe in certain things if that's where our mindset is. Like, we have belief, and then we have the evidence of the belief following that, you know? Yeah. Like hardened heart like Pharaoh did. Yeah. Yeah. No matter what God did, he wasn't gonna buy into it. Like J.C. Ryle said, he said, "In the things of the Gospel, believing is as good as seeing." Like, we don't really need to necessarily see it as much as we believe it. But. Yeah, that's good. And for the listeners, the two Lazaruses that I spoke of and then what Mandy just did, those are two separate Lazaruses, just FYI. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Lazari. Well, any closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of signs and wonders? Absolutely. I think, just my closing thought, it just goes back to the, what's the point and the purpose of a miracle, a sign, and a wonder? It is to point us towards Jesus, not to get caught up in the good thing that happened. But let's be sure that we're not trading great for good when it comes to miracles and the one who is the author of them. It's to point us towards Jesus and what he did for us and the redemption that he gives us in the forgiveness of sins through Jesus and his final and finished work on the cross. So, miracles are great. Signs and wonders are amazing. I'm so grateful if they ever happen in my life. But that's good. But Jesus is the great. Amen. I'm gonna say that I really truly believe God means for us all to be healed. I mean, it doesn't say that he took 39 lashes so that maybe you're healed or maybe you're not. It says that you'll be healed. But just like the story with this nobleman, he gives you an opportunity to partner with him in that. And so, I just, my final thought would be for anybody out there struggling, you know, just keep speaking it out. I love how Ms. Marlene says it, where she says that you ask God and then, you ask him once, and then you thank him for it because it is done, it is finished. And so, I'll just advocate for anyone out there to have the same kind of belief that this man had that it is done, it is finished, and it's for you. That's good. One of the more personal experience kind of reflections at the end of this for me is how believing doesn't necessarily mean that it'll happen my way. And so, just encourage anybody out there, too, who might be experiencing any depression or anxiety or whatever the thing, the distress is, that it can happen even if it's not now. I mean, or like, not, yeah, even if it's not right now. And I think that's important because I think we can all put pressure on ourselves. And even like, in a state of just feeling horrible emotionally or physically, we can put a lot of pressure on ourselves that, like, if we pray hard enough now or if we just, like, if, like all my friends at church, like, put hands on me and everybody prays hard enough, then we can do it right now. And that's not necessarily, it's not that Jesus doesn't want to heal people, but, like, God's way of healing people might not match the timing. And so, I think that's a big one for me. Because it's mysterious, right? I think at the end of the day, there's a lot of mystery in miracles. But. Yeah. So not to get discouraged. That it's not just a matter of, like, oh, I'm not believing enough or I'm not grateful enough, so I'm not affecting a miracle right now. And then just the other thing that I talked about was like, the whole confirmation thing really is sinking in for me, like that signs and wonders are a confirmation of, like, God's actions, his truths, and, like, who Jesus is, as you mentioned, Dr. Jon, and even not just that Jesus can perform miracles or that he can heal, but that he actually claims to be co-equal and co-eternal with God. I mean, he says it like, even, like, I testify to the Father, the Father testifies to me. I glorify the Father, he glorifies me. So just remembering that too, like. And even in the eyes of the people back in his day, it was like, no, this is a claim to divinity. I mean, even things like healing the paralytic, the other paralytic who he entered through the roof. That's the other example. Like on the Sanhedrin, how can you heal this man on, you know, and then he's like, well, what's harder to heal his sins or to say, get up and walk? Right? He doubles down. Like, this is who I am. And that's exactly what the miracles prove. Really good. And I, can I just piggyback off that? I think that from what you're saying about the miracles, I think that going back to the heart, you know, we, God, can heal in a second, but what does that do for your heart? And having the journey of healing really does speak to your heart. Like, this man had a journey home. Yeah. On that note, that's kind of my closing thought, is that I keep thinking about that journey back and he, him taking him at his word. And I wrote that, "Taking Jesus at his word means there's distance between what he spoke and when we see it with our eyes." And it could, I mean, it could be more or less instantaneous, but I do think that for many of us, like, a journey of faith is a journey of God, like, I told you I'm going to do this thing, and you now get the opportunity to trust me in that. And I have this quote from Elisabeth Elliott. Is that right? Nope. Mother Teresa. I think I had a quote from Elisabeth Elliot from a different one, but someone asked her, like, how she always had so much clarity on everything that she was doing and the decisions she was making, and she just said, I never had clarity, but I always had trust. And that I feel like is super applicable, at least for me in, like, this idea of, like, Jesus could have easily done something that would confirm it to him right then. And I think that he had the beauty of turning around and he said, go, your son is healed. And he turned around and he went. And along the way, he did get confirmation that this had happened. I still think, just the nature of Robyn Nelson, I would turn around and I'd hear that, okay, my son was healed. And then the next 19 miles, I'd be like, but did something happen? You know what I mean? I would, like, start to question it. And I think it's really awesome that, like, he even had that, that he had that space between, because it probably was a faith building experience, that whole, like, to ruminate on that, to think on what God did, to think on that somebody already reported back to him that it happened, and then by the time he came back, like, his son is still healed too. Like, I think that God works in those spaces so much, and where I want instantaneous confirmation, God is doing, like, he's like, bringing us higher. It's a higher level of faith or it's like a deeper level of intimacy with him, where I'm going after the one thing, like the answer to that prayer, and God is potentially, like, answering that prayer, but he's going after the bigger thing where he wants, like, my heart. He wants salvation for fellow believers to see, you know, like. I don't know if that made sense, but the sun just got really hot on me. And I don't often get to say that, so. I'm warm. Suns and wonders. That's right. Could be a sign. Could be a sign. Of what? I don't know. I don't know. Can I just speak to that real quick? I just wonder the nature of meeting Jesus, the Son of God, face to face, and the power behind that and how much that fueled his walk home, and what does that look like for us today—as we come to God and ask for whatever it is going on in our lives—the importance of really having that relationship with him built up? Because that's the catalyst of belief, right? It's knowing him first and foremost. Yeah. And I guess just really quick, is knowing him, it's like, so, for someone who's fortunate enough to have, you know, a father in their life who is loving and a little kid who can see their dad, like, you know, lift them up with one hand and they can fix a car and they can, you know, do all these great things, protect, you know, when there's, you know, like, a barking dog nearby, right? Save them. And if the child only cared about the things that that father did in those respects, I mean, that would, that would be, that'd break the father's heart. Because if there's no relationship from the perspective of the child to the father, it's like, so you just like me because of what I can do for you? Like, just those cool things? I really do think, like, the heart of the Father is like, I'm doing these things—well, like the Word says—so that you can understand how much of a relationship I want with you, I want a true and honest and beautiful relationship with my children. These are great things that I can do for you, but it's because I want the relationship with you. Amen. Well said. Yeah. Well, in 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, beginning in verse 8, it says, "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." And there appears to be a contrast between things that abide, like love—and Jesus has spoken of eternal life being the priority—contrasted with like signs, like tongues and perhaps you could even put in casting out the demons, you know, they're not eternal around here. Healing won't be needed forever, you know, we will be healed. And for those who want those things to happen in order that they may believe, like, perpetually, like having their belief dependent on seeing those signs, it seems like in a similar way that, how God could be frustrated with, like, that's what I had to do for the Egyptians, well, it sounds like he's saying, well, that's childlike thinking, you know, perhaps. It'd be nice to mature. It's like he's hoping that people will mature so they don't require all those things. Like, yes, we need all these things in this life. But if not, please don't be childish and depend your belief on a sign all the time. Yeah. He wants a mature people who have belief settled. In their heart it's settled. Right. And he is a good Father that wants to give us these gifts. But let's not have our belief dependent on a lifetime of do this now and do this now and do this now. And now, my, I'm in a faith crisis again. Right. Because it didn't happen again or it didn't happen the way I thought it was going to happen again. Right. Because God's got, you know, his ways and his priorities and a bigger picture. And so that's the, that's the main thing. And it's, that is I think what we're looking at as far as maturity goes. Even if you don't do it, my heart will say it is well with my soul. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So. Well, great discussion everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode soon. Take care everybody. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. 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