Episode Transcript
Welcome back to another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon, et al. My name is Chris. And psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll is co-host today. We're joined with Robyn Nelson as well. Special education teacher.
That's me.
And for the first time in the studio Jim Beirne and Christina Konrad. Welcome.
Thank you.
Jim Beirne is pastor of Next Gen Ministry and Contemporary Worship Leader at Mukilteo Presbyterian Church.
Well done on Mukilteo.
Awesome.
Yes.
I know it, right?
Holds a master's degree in Servant Leadership from Seattle Bible College. And were you a chaplain for the Seattle Supersonics as well?
Yes, fourth string chaplain for the Seattle Supersonics.
Okay.
There were four of us. I was the fourth. So when everyone else was sick and couldn't make it, there I was.
You were there. Okay.
The George Karl era.
George Karl era. Okay. Excellent.
Sports.
I was never invited to do anything like that.
Podcast has finally arrived in the sports.
You're welcome, everyone.
We've heard our listeners, we've heard the feedback.
Sports.
Here we go.
And Christina Konrad, owner of The Journey Counseling, holds a Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology, licensed mental health counselor. And fun fact from your website: dairy free and egg free.
Congratulations.
Yes.
So adapting recipes to be allergen friendly, what would like your greatest success be in that? Like, you didn't think it could be done, and sure enough, enough effort went in and like, wow, I could actually fool the Dairy Queen herself, if that were possible.
I mean, I think I've perfected a pretty solid dairy free and egg free buttermilk biscuit. That's pretty awesome.
That sounds incredible.
That sounds good.
Well, welcome, everybody. We are continuing our conversation on the topic of light from the Book of John and just kind of focusing on a verse such as John 1:9 out of the ESV, "The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world." Speaking of Jesus, and just some other thoughts on what that really means, what that means as far as revelation to the world and what that means in the person of Jesus Christ. So, any additional thoughts on that topic?
Yeah, so when I was talking in the vlog about nightlights and how one little light can really dispel a lot of dark, as a kid, that was really important because it didn't take much to make the room feel safe.
And I just think that it's amazing how as Christ lives in us and we are the light, it doesn't take too much for it to be visible.
I think the human eye can see one candle as far as 1.6 to 1.7 miles away. And so, I just think that's something to keep in mind, is even though we might feel like we're just one, we're powerful with Christ. Yeah.
Okay. Alright, opening thoughts around the room. Christina?
Just to piggyback, I was thinking about the song we all sang as children in Sunday school, "This Little Light of Mine," and how it says to "hide it under a bush. Oh, no." Right?
I think in the world that we live in today, it's so tempting to hold back and to, you know, not offend or to not really speak the truth or to couch what you really want to say with placations or whatever. And I think we have to continually be challenged to be the light and not be afraid to share the truth.
Yeah. Yeah.
Excellent. Opening thoughts around the room. Jim?
I'm just always very conscious of the themes through scripture of darkness and light. I think that, having spent a lot of time in my own head, you quickly grab ahold of what darkness really is, and you start to think and feel and internalize things.
And then this beautiful thing comes in groups, and this beautiful thing comes through community and fellowship—exactly what we're doing around this table, discussion—and takes those dark things, and it brings them out of the darkness and into the light and allows us to minister to each other and God's word to minister to us. So, I'm always really conscious of the analogies of darkness and light, and that light of Christ coming into the world changed everything. It was a huge game changer for everything.
Pretty big. Yeah.
For sure.
That's good.
Robyn?
Another thought that I had on light after our last conversation was, kind of what you're saying, that song, "This Little Light of Mine" was in my head this morning as I was driving here and thinking the light inside me has brought a lot of—to dispel the darkness externally, I guess, is the thought there. We could be surrounded by darkness in our circumstances, yet the light inside of us is giving us strength or hope or peace or joy, which is something that I think I struggled with for many years is that like looming depression a lot. But then Jesus. And how, even if my circumstances didn't necessarily change, there was like a light inside that really dispelled a lot of that outer darkness. Just really cool to experience over the course of my life.
Yeah. And looking at this word, light, I just opened up like an interlinear Bible just see what the meaning of the word is. And one of the definitions, according to Strong's concordance, when it says, which gives light to everyone that could be defined as I light up, illuminate, I bring to light, make evident, reveal.
And later on in John, chapter 1, verses 17-18, it says, "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." And so, this idea of illumination or enlightenment make evident, reveal, knowledge. Basically, it's making knowledge of God.
Again, in Matthew, chapter 4, verses 16 and 17,
"'the people dwelling in darkness
have seen a great light,
and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death,
on them a light has dawned.'
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'”
And so, it's as if they, with new knowledge, there's this call to repentance. I'm just going to connect a lot of dots here. Repentance is to change your mind. And I know Billy Graham has a lot more definitions and sermons about, really elaborates on it. He's certainly more experienced than I am. But just for purposes of this discussion, repentance, to change one's mind based on additional knowledge, it's like if you think you know something and then more evidence or more knowledge comes in like a courtroom or something, more evidence is presented. Well, now, can we all change our minds?
Right?
Yeah.
Have you considered changing your mind? Based on the new knowledge that has come in? Anyway, that concept of knowledge, Jesus is knowledge of God, that prior to his incarnation, it wasn't there. And so, people up to that point, they were in darkness. And now, as it says in Matthew, a light has dawned, so—
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, with new knowledge, we have to be open to receiving new knowledge. We have to be open to then using that. So, I think there's a humility that goes hand in hand with that. And so, to be trainable, to be teachable, to have a heart of a student, a heart of someone who is trainable, because we can hear truth and we can reject it, and people do that every day.
And so, yeah, I think it's like your courtroom analogy. It's like once the new evidence is presented, it's—the onus is on the individual who has heard now what is truth and what will they do with it? And they're responsible for that.
And so, yeah, I think just the heart of a student, the heart of being open to new information, yeah, that's something we could all benefit from.
Well, I think what you're saying is making me think that then if we are presented with truth—and it's, like, undeniable—we're actively choosing not to accept that, we are choosing deception, which is inevitably choosing darkness for ourselves. Like, at some point, you are kind of like, you're justifying your own actions, or you're justifying your own thoughts and your own wrong way of thinking. You are intentionally choosing darkness for yourself and what that can do to you, like, internally and the confusion that can breed for yourself and, like, those you love because you're living in a chosen world of darkness.
Yeah.
Thinking about, like, my line of work and what I do with my clients and so much of what they bring is living in deception and it's based in shame. And it's years and years of believing what the world or other people have told them. It's, like, so important that we know who we are in God and how Christ freed us and delivered us and gave us new meaning and a new name. And there's so much that you have to unpack, and it's really driven so much by shame, I think by a lot of people. Something you didn't mention in the bio about me is that I'm actually writing a book as well. And my main goal in writing is to bring to light things that people feel shame about, speaking about freely, and just to, like, illuminate it so that it's not so stigmatized.
When I think about our use of cultural slang, I think about when someone enters into a conversation with you, and maybe we're asking questions, maybe we're searching for answers, and they use this age-old term, "let me shed a little light on this for you." And truly, when somebody does shed light on a situation, just like Chris said, it illuminates it.
And I can't get over, you know, I work with so many—this culture that we're in right now—so many young people, they have no knowledge of Christ or the Bible at all. Where I grew up, there was a Bible in every household. We just kind of knew things.
But you think about this transformation that goes on in people when they're searching for light, when they're struggling. And it reminds me that you know when we talk about sin as Christians, we use this big, general word, "sin," covers everything.
But I think sometimes we have to remember that scripture tells us that Christ died on the cross for sin and shame.
Shame's huge. And so, when you're talking about shame, really, people need to be illuminated. They need to understand that that's all part of a bigger package of living in this world of darkness. But that Jesus came to, he's the light of this world. And that last piece at the beginning of John where it just says, the light came into the world and the darkness cannot overcome it. I just think about that all the time.
Yeah.
The light came into the world and the darkness could not overcome it. It's so great.
That's really, really good.
It's so great to think about.
Yeah. In my practice, too, shame, I had this conversation fairly regularly with clients where the shame really, it seems like that's the thing that will keep the cycle going, because as long as there's shame and as long as we feel like that our face is still in the dirt, it's like, well, "why not just do the thing again? Why not just do the thing that I know is hurting me?" But there's such a low feeling about oneself, and so it's, as quick as we can shed off that shame—shoulders back, eyes forward— it's like, we can move forward. And I think even some Christians like, "yeah, but I don't want to seem like I—" it's almost like a self-punishment, like "I deserve to be down here longer." It's like, well, who's keeping you down there? It's not Christ. And so, you're keeping yourself down there, and then it's like, "well, so I just receive forgiveness and keep moving forward?" Yes, absolutely. As quickly as possible. Receive the forgiveness, stand up, get up out of the mud, and keep moving forward.
And so, it's something that I think that it's unfortunate that a lot of people fail to realize that the forgiveness is there as soon as it happens. As soon as the thing happens.
Yeah. And making sure that the thoughts are—that's the cognitive behavioral model, right? Thoughts lead to emotions and emotions lead to behaviors. And so, I think it's great that the message in the gospel here—"Jesus began to preach, saying, 'Repent...'"—if we want to say, change your mind or purpose, that's the starting point. Change your mind about it first.
Don't initially worry about the behaviors. Don't initially worry about the feelings, but initially start with changing your mind. Change your thoughts. Come into agreement that the sin is wrong first. So that's—I just want to throw this, just want to throw this out there as an idea—that a lot of times that starting point gets skipped, I think. People jump to the behaviors or they jump to the feelings without just focusing, let's just at least come into agreement mentally that this is, that this is wrong.
Yeah.
Can you even agree that this is wrong?
Questioning your feelings. For sure. Yeah. Those feelings will take us all sorts of places.
Yeah, it's really fun.
Yeah, yeah. Been on that journey a few times?
Call me out right now.
Well, as Paul said, you know, take captive every thought. I mean, there's a reason why he said that.
Yeah.
The first cognitive behavioral therapist is like, because you need to understand that your thoughts is that that's what steers the boat. And so understanding what we're thinking and how that's influencing our emotion, our behavior, for sure.
Well, I want to circle back to this concept that actually Jim brought up about as we're all around the table and we're basically in community—that is light. That is light coming together. And it really amplifies, doesn't it? And just kind of piggybacking off this idea that one light is visible from afar off. I just wonder if, like, using that other concept, like a, a strand of, a rope of three strands is not easily broken. Like, if you multiply the light in community, just how bigger the impact is, it's like, exponential.
And so, just perhaps from your experience in pastoral leadership, how does that look as light, additional light comes into the fellowship, into the church body?
Well, I really think that the church has always been meant to equip.
And so, as people see the light of Jesus Christ, and really, really what we're talking about is transformation. As people are transformed, the byproduct of transformation is light.
Everyone around this table that works with people, there is nothing like we would say when the light goes on, or we use a lot of terms, but when transformation happens, light enters. And I would be more specific and say, when Christ enters and you see that Holy Spirit, Christ-like transformation in someone's life that no one can take credit for, that no one can explain, that is contagious. And people around that light, they see that, and inevitably they say, "I want that," because no one wants to live in darkness.
Why? And so as new people are coming into the church, transformation is going on. I think we're all —I'd use this term—"wounded healers," I think as we share the hurts, the wounds, the things in our lives and the way that God has shown light upon those and transformed us, we share those stories.
It begets more transformation. People are attracted to that. So once part of being equipping church is helping people identify how they can help others with their own past hurts and their own past troubles.
When light's been shed on that, it's really a testimony, sharing it over and over again, putting people in positions where their gift mix can be used in community to really bring light, whatever it might be. It could be something really deep and very solemn. It could be somebody who's just a fun-loving person that likes to have conversation, likes to meet people. What I love about God's economy or God's kingdom is there is a place for everybody in it, and so. And it is supposed to be a kingdom of light. Right?
I mean, we. It's why I'm there. I like the light, you know, I love it. I don't want to be in the darkness.
That's right.
But just equipping people, helping them find out who they are. And I think Christina talked earlier a little bit about identity and our identity—Christ is in us when we meet with Jesus, and when Jesus comes into our lives, he is in us, and therefore, we have that light in us.
Yeah.
So, it's always a little battle for a while to understand what we have available to us. And our old self gets in the way and says, you know, reminds us of our past, sin, shame, all the things that we don't want to talk about, being locked in a locker in middle school, whatever it is, we don't share those things.
But Jesus comes in, and he illuminates, and he lights, and I love that transformation. I love being part of a ministry that helps people find their niche. Where do I belong, and how can I use whoever I am, wherever I'm at, for the greater good of the kingdom of Christ? It's super cool.
Yeah.
I love it.
That's great. That's really good. I think it's interesting how just naturally, it's almost like God put in place from a natural standpoint, the difference between light and darkness and the effects of both. It's like, we know that in the darkness, mold grows and things get nasty, and, but we also know that in the light, like, growth happens. Like, plants can grow, trees can grow, and it's almost like God's like, I'm putting all this stuff in place so that when you read what I have to say on the matter about light and darkness, how much better light is. Just look around you. Like, look around. What happens in the dark? Look around. What happens in the light. It's night and day. It's like, "hello?"
In AA they say that secrets keep us sick, right? So, like, secrets are in darkness. Often they're hidden, and that's the stuff that keeps us stuck.
Yeah. Yeah. Living in the shadows.
I think the thought that I'm having, like—everything you guys just said, I feel like, ties into this—is, like, we are looking at light with, like, it's so comforting. But I also think if we're honest with ourselves, there's some degree of darkness that's comfortable because we are hidden. Like, you know? And there is a certain level of exposure and vulnerability that comes with being in the light. And the difference is that Jesus is, like, his presence is in the light as well. And so, I mean, like, can you just imagine being so fully known, like, so fully exposed and so fully vulnerable, but at the same time, so fully loved by a good God that in that light, you can experience that love of Jesus where that hiding in the darkness doesn't grant you that same kind of access. Like, it may feel safe, but that is, like, that's where the mold grows, and that's where terror reigns, and that's where there are threats that you can't see, you know, like that sort of thing. Like, I know this is a lot of conjecture right now as far as, like. But it just is the thought that what you guys are saying is making me think of that, like, there's a tendency to lean into the dark sometimes because it feels safe, but where we're gonna find true safety and acceptance, and all of that is in the light of Jesus.
Right. Kind of goes back to that concept of the toxic relationship. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
A lot of times in. In counseling, I've had the experience where somebody, after a while of working with someone, they'll share something they've been holding back for a long time, and then it's finally like, they put it out there, and when it's not met with a judgment or a condemnation, they're just like, "that feels so much better." It's like it's in the light now. It's not being held in, and there's such a relief.
And as it pertains to Christ, it's like he knows us and he loves us, and he's like, bring me everything. Bring it to me, and I'm going to make it better.
Yeah. I wonder if we can just connect this idea of community with being around fellow believers, and then this idea of wanting to, in a sense, remain in the darkness. Even if one is a believer, one has the light. But in some ways, they—if, as you mentioned—are experiencing depression or something like that, that might not make that feel like an enjoyable encounter, to be surrounded with more light.
Sure.
But what is the benefit? Can anyone speak to forcing oneself to surround themselves with additional light, additional community, additional support? How do other people help in that endeavor?
Wow. To be known is to be loved. If you really think about that, which one of us wouldn't want, I mean, truly to be completely known, judgment free. Completely loved, judgment free. It's just that our human minds and our sin nature, we can't wrap around that.
Right.
But the people who are close to me, who know me, they know the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Right.
My wife, my kids, right? And they still love me. And when I think about that, I think that's the light of relationship. It's not going to happen with everybody this side of heaven, obviously. We're not going to get to a place where all of a sudden, we just are.
Christ will take care of all of that. But to have a base of community around you, it takes. My wife and I have been married for almost 30 years.
It took a good portion of that 30 years for us to really know each other. And it took a good portion of that 30 years for me to really understand the love that my wife shows me, because she knows all of the bad stuff. She knows, you know, all my failures, all those things, but yet continues on. And likewise, for me. And I have to say, when I was 20, I couldn't grab ahold of this concept at all.
It's one of those things that takes time.
But community and relationship, that's how God wanted from the very beginning. He wanted community and relationship with Adam and Eve. Right?
Right.
Things got messed up, and now here we are today, and I'm still impressed how powerful light is. I don't know if you guys watched the eclipse. I was glued to the tv.
I watched some of it. I watched it.
What interested me a lot, what really grabbed me was once the full eclipse was, once it was on, everything was dark. It was night.
And it—as the sun moved or as the eclipse continued, that little sliver of sunlight was so bright, like, you could literally see the change on camera. And it was. It was just like a small piece of the pie exposed, which was way more powerful than the darkness. Like, I noticed it, just that little bit of light. And as the eclipse continued and the sun shone again, I was really taken by that because it really is that part about community.
Jesus Christ will make it all right one day, but right now, we have enough to illuminate everything we need. And so, you know, I try to encourage people, especially in this culture, to think about building each other up.
We could all break each other down so easily and so quickly. Once you get to know somebody, you know their weaknesses.
It's so much harder to just build people up, but it's so much more worth it. And that's the joy of relationship. And the light of relationship is people in spite of themselves, in spite of our faults and everything else, coming together and building each other up in the name of the kingdom, which to me is what light is all about, really.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tearing down is easy.
It is. Super.
Yeah, building up. Yeah, that takes some effort, obviously.
Yeah, sure.
I think going—what you were talking about, about why it might be important for people, even though they might not feel like it, to get into the light, to get into more groups of people that are maybe displaying, you know, just the elements of light, Christ, that might be healthy for them. It's like, like every predator, their MO is to isolate, to get the prey away from the herd. And I think that that's really important that we remember that community in Christ is really important because Satan will always try to get us from the herd. He'll always try to isolate us. And once he isolates us, then we can get wrapped up in our own negative thinking, our own thoughts, our own echo chambers. And so, the community of Christ can help us to understand what is lies and what is truth. And so, getting into a good Bible based community is massively important, for sure.
Yeah. I don't think we were—we were not created to live alone. We were created for relationship. And if we're isolated, we're like actually robbing God of an opportunity to love us through his people.
Maybe that's an extreme way of saying that, but I think, like, we're meant to be in relationship and we're meant to be in community. And if we're not, then we are missing out. And we're also not allowing other people to do what they're created to do.
And, like, through sharing our stories and our testimonies and encouragement and just like, I just had surgery and our community brought us meals for a whole month. Like, that was such a gift. And that kind of stuff just is what the community of God, the family of God and the kingdom of God was created for.
Yeah.
And when it comes to sin, the responsibility of the body of Christ is to speak truth and love. And so, when that happens, then that can help somebody to come out of the darkness because they're not judged. Yeah.
Truth is very powerful.
Yeah.
And I thank God for grace, a balance of grace and truth. A straight dose of truth can cripple somebody, especially our truth. We can really hurt people with the truth. But that balance of grace and truth that Jesus showed through his whole ministry here, that's pretty amazing. It's a great example for us as we encounter people, the way we deal with people, the delivery of our message. There's a lot to that. And it goes back to the building up or the breaking down.
You can take the same message and you could beat somebody with it, or you could deliver that message in love, in truth and love, and you can build somebody up in it. It's all in the delivery. But as humans, we struggle with the delivery because we get emotionally, you know, involved, where we probably shouldn't be sometimes. And we want to—we're fixers, we want to help—and instead of sitting back and waiting on the Lord and taking a deep breath and making sure we don't have a log in our own eye—all those things, right?—a lot of times we're in a position where we dive in. But—
Yeah
It's that, that grace and grace and truth balance is another example of light. It's another example of Christ alive in his people. And so, when we can deliver that way, praise God for it because it's not natural.
Yeah.
It's surely not our own.
Yeah.
Yeah. And that need for community, it could be anybody. It doesn't need to mean somebody that's trapped in sin or darkness. Like, even Elijah the prophet felt he was the only one left, right?
And so—
The cave was dark.
Yeah. And so, God told him, no, there's others. You're not the only one. But he felt like he was the only one. He felt like he was alone. And there's probably even people in leadership ministry that can feel like they are the only light left, in a sense. But the community would if they had a greater knowledge of those around them, then they might not have those feelings of, say, despair or something like that.
Right. Yeah.
All right, well, excellent discussion. Any closing thoughts as we wrap up this conversation of light?
Yeah, so I think it's interesting. So, John 8:12 reads "Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'" And then in Matthew 5:14-16, it reads, "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." I just think it's interesting how Jesus first says, I am the light, and then he says, you are the light. And so, being little Christs, as Christians, we are carrying the light that he is. And I think that that's just an amazing honor and privilege to be able to represent him in that way.
I think, too, like, he left us with the power of the Holy Spirit to illuminate that to whatever degree is needed in whatever situation we're given. So, to remember that he's behind us and in us and shining through us, that's powerful. And I think sometimes we walk into situations where we feel afraid to say the truth or to just be the light. Right? And I think we should just be challenged to, like, embrace that calling as we—as we are believers, we are all given that calling to spread the light and to grow the kingdom of God.
That's good.
I would encourage people, don't—not to be discouraged. Nothing is 100% this side of heaven.
But in our daily routines, we all have these opportunities to bring light, and we don't always do it. But the idea is a lot like what Paul said when he says, you need to forget those things that are behind you, and you just look to what's up ahead. Strain is the word he uses, strain towards what's ahead.
I think we have to be reminded of that as we try to be the salt and light and the light in the world. That the light is Jesus. We're connected to him like that vine is connected to the stalk, and the vine is connected strongly to it.
To be encouraged that he's working in us. It's not on our own, it's him. And to even be thankful for those opportunities that we get to make a difference somehow in somebody's life or in some kind of situation each day.
But not to get pinned down and feel shame when it doesn't work out the way we think it should, or when we make a mistake or when we just flip our lids sometimes, you know, it's part of, hey, you gotta let that go. Turn it over to Jesus. Focus on the light. Keep walking towards the light and walking in the light, and he takes care of the rest. He really, really, really does. I'm amazed how wonderful he is.
Good.
I'm trying to figure out what my closing thought is here, because I've got three. So, yeah. Because you guys said some things that made me think of other things. But I think the one thing was—the scripture that came to mind for me—this whole thought process made me think of that scripture that says, it's Proverbs 4:18,
"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn,
which shines brighter and brighter until full day."
And I was just, one, surprised that I hadn't thought of that the first time we had this conversation, but that we are people who, with the light of Christ in us, are walking further and further into light every day. And what that looks like and what that has looked like for me and for people I know is not necessarily that life always gets better, but, like, the light in us does get stronger, and that it, like, it is a burning fire, like an all-consuming fire. And how that could carry us and carry us through darkness and through dark times, which I think I probably already mentioned earlier. And then the other thought I was having was when you guys talked about and you read that scripture on not putting your light under a bushel.
And I've just been really surprised in the past few years about how many people, actually, I wouldn't have known I've had, like, camaraderie with, or share, like, a similar, I guess, thought process or way of thinking, or having that light in us. Like, I think there's been a lot of division that's been created over the past, however many years for different reasons and a lot of different things. But I've been really surprised also with the number of people that I can disagree with on very huge things. But we share a commonality still in Jesus, and I think that's a very beautiful thing. And it's a very, like, very incredible community to get folded into, for one. Like, on a broad scale community, but also, like, how that light is, like, the—I think the tool that we have to work out and suss out those issues and come out stronger on the other side in one way, shape, whatever that looks like for you to be stronger, but to really unified as a community. So those are my thoughts. Take whichever one you want.
We'll take both.
Okay.
Yeah, that's an interesting thought. That's one way, like, if we look at light—and let's say fire—light in the physical tends to dim over time, but that verse indicates spiritually that the opposite is true. The light tends to grow over time. Like, the closer we walk with God, the closer we are to him. As we mature in him, that light just gets brighter.
And it's not like—I mean, it's not like, at risk of going out. You know, it's not like going to—we wake up one day and, "Oh, no, the fire went out. I gotta— Where's the spark?" No. God is always at work behind the scenes and growing us and even when the environment can appear to be contrary—the darkness can appear to be strong, but the light, God's light, is always stronger, so. Well, excellent discussion. Thank you everybody for contributing to another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care everyone.
Thank you.
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