S2 E12 | "Thirst" | Bible Study John 4:13-14

I've always been a movie guy. As a kid, I couldn't think of a better Friday night than going to Blockbuster to pick out a title from the new release section, knowing that I would soon be transported to new adventures in worlds both foreign and familiar. Dreams incarnate; this movie wonderland was endless stories under one roof. In my bedroom, framed posters like Men in Black, Twister and Roland Emmerich's Godzilla—the best of the Godzilla movies; yeah, I said it—adorned my walls like guardians of my own personal galaxy, and an ever-growing collection of VHSs and DVDs filled the shelves discriminately designed for books. For the better part of a decade, I regularly paid tribute to Hollywood Video at their 4 for $20 bin. Two pleasant moviegoing memories are going to see Deep Blue Sea with my sweet grandmother and seeing my reserved grandfather laugh uncontrollably at the Harland Williams urine scene in Dumb and Dumber. Frequency will always remind me of my dad; the Sound of Music, my mom; and somewhere along the way, It's a Wonderful Life went from my least favorite to among my top three. For almost 30 years, I saved every movie ticket stub. And for as long as I can remember, making home movies with my brother has always played a role in my life. Classics such as Mini Vice, Phantom Nights and Larry the Learner, to name a few. Tim Burton once said, "Movies are like an expensive form of therapy for me." Growing up, movies were my inexpensive form of therapy. So needless to say, when planning a recent west coast trip with my mom and brother, spending a day at Universal Studios was a non-negotiable. And like every good story, this one came with a twist. It was a bright and sunny day. A red carpet welcomed us as we entered the studio gates as we began our day with some of Hollywood's greatest characters. The studio tram was first on our to-do list, and it didn't disappoint. From classic movie sets to original props, it was easily one of the day's highlights. We then took in Super Nintendo World and the Transformers ride, both great, but we definitely started with dessert. As the day grew hotter, my appetite grew with it. At about 2PM we found an open table at the eatery next to the Transformers ride, and I didn't hold back. I was Augustus Gloop and the food court was my Chocolate Factory. Anything edible seemed to make it onto my plate, and if there was a chocolate river, I probably would have had my snout in that too. But little did I know this culinary disinhibition would be my Road to Perdition. Somewhere between the ham sandwich and the personal pizza, the plot thickened as the contents of my intestines thinned. Cheese and pepperoni were the sun to my stomach's wings of wax. And like Icarus' wings, my insides started to liquefy. And as we know from grade school science, liquid always finds the path of least resistance. Apparently, whatever resistance a normal working body has, mine was suddenly malfunctioning. Like two dams simultaneously on the verge of structural failure, both my north and south were compromised. In Blake Snyder's book on writing screenplays, Save the Cat, he writes that there's a third act beat called "All is Lost," the moment when the hero's obstacles are seemingly insurmountable. This all is lost moment was about to be literal for me. As my vision started to dim, scenes of Stand by Me flashed before my eyes and I became certain of three horrifying truths: I was going to have my own personal Barf-o-Rama; I was going to turn my Fruit of the Looms into a fudge factory; and pass out—and not necessarily in that order. And worst of all, I would need to be wheeled out on a gurney past the Fast and Furious Plaza. If I was family, even Dom would turn his back. To avert catastrophe, I had to work backwards and quickly. I knew how this one ended. What I didn't know was how it began. My own personal Memento. Thankfully, the solution didn't have a two-hour runtime. Between the southern California heat, the large meal and sudden lava gut, technically speaking, the clues fell into place. I was dehydrated. It was The Perfect Storm meets Bullet Train. If I didn't act quick, not even a tag team effort of Pierce Brosnan and Tommy Lee Jones could save me from this impending eruption. Over the next 40 minutes, ice water was purchased, drank and poured on my head in a desperate attempt to reinforce the dam, to resolidify my intestines. An effort that thankfully worked. Not only did I manage to avoid the embarrassment of my own personal physiological purge, but I also avoided the embarrassment of being carted out in front of my childhood therapists. In the book of John, dehydration is also addressed, so to speak. In the account of the woman at the well, after a brief exchange, like the well itself, Jesus started speaking in depth. Whereas the woman has spent her life living in the shallows, Jesus was inviting her into the deep. And what better way to bridge the gap of understanding than to talk about water and thirst? Almost like Jesus was saying: Water. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. In his commentary of the woman at the well, theologian J.C. Ryle writes, "The truth of the principle here laid down may be seen on every side by all who are not blinded by prejudice or love of the world. Thousands of men have every temporal good thing that heart could wish, and are yet weary and dissatisfied." We all long for that which will truly satisfy. But do we really know that for which we long? Many do not. Psalm 107:8-9 reads, "Let them thank the Lord for his steadfast love, for his wondrous works to the children of man! For he satisfies the longing soul, and the hungry soul he fills with good things." And so, Jesus explained to the woman at the well. Jesus said, “'Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.'” Dehydration can have a cruel side effect. It can disguise itself as hunger. It's cruel because digestion actually slows when the body lacks water. That day at Universal, I thought I knew what I needed, what I believed would help. I was wrong. And worse, with every bite of food, I was unknowingly making my situation worse. I was the man lost at sea attempting to quench his thirst with seawater. Spiritually speaking, I believe that's where the devil does some of his dirtiest work, inside the disguise, within the deception. Because if he can deceive us to believe we're hungry when we're really thirsty, all he needs to do is sit back and watch us fix ourselves to death. Thankfully, I realized what I needed before it was too late, before my story ended as a tragedy. Like the movie Signs, water was the twist in my story. Perhaps water could be the twist in yours. Oh, we have to lean back and laugh. Yeah, that would. Ideally, yeah. Okay. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. How's that? One more time. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Again, please. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh, I already failed. Y'all are failing. I'm sorry. I'll try and develop a more dainty kind of laughter. Wait, let's Google it in Spanish real quick for Rogelio. How to laugh in Spanish? Ja, ja, ja, ja, ja, ja. That's right. You know Spanish. It is "ja, ja." If you want to laugh more playfully in Spanish, it's "je, je, je." Like j-e, j-e, Is that right? Yeah. Je, je, je, je, je, je. Yeah. Otherwise, it's ja, ja. That's. That's je, je, je, je. That's ja, ja, ja, ja. This may be my favorite conversation. Well, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times. Along with psychologist and author and aspiring photographer Dr. Jon Troll, my brother, my name is Chris, your host, joined once again with Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson, Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate Rogelio Navarro, and from Reach Ministry, Mandy Michaels. Welcome everybody. Hey. Hey, man. Welcome. Hello. We are continuing our discussion in the book of John. We're in chapter 4, still talking about Jesus meeting with the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman. And as we do in each episode, we focus on a particular word in the passage. Our word of the day is "thirst," as you had in your vlog there, Jon. So, I'll go ahead and open with our passage we're reading here. John, chapter 4, verses 13 through 14. Out of the ESV, "Jesus said to her, 'Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.'” And the word is thirst. And we'll go with opening thoughts around the table. Yeah, so I'm going to start with a couple of jokes. So, I'm going to just put out there. Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, it's in my contract now to give people a heads up when I'm going to tell a joke. So, the theme is thirst and water, but mostly water. R.I.P. boiling water. You will be mist. Oh. I never believed water could freeze. But now icy. A man walks into a library and asks for a bottle of water. The librarian says, "This is a library." The man says, "[whispering] Sorry, a bottle of water, please." I love that. And then did you ever hear the joke about the three holes in the ground? No. Well, well, well. What's the joke? Just kidding. So, my opening thought, it really has to do a little bit with what I mentioned in the vlog about. I just think it is interesting when it comes to thirst, how it can look like hunger sometimes. And my experience when I was at Universal, I thought, what I needed was food because I had the same, like, I had this, like, desire to eat something. And what I really needed was water. And so, it is interesting how thirst mimics itself as hunger. And I was. And I didn't even notice until I started writing the blog. And so, I was like, okay, so why is it that I thought that I was hungry? And so, here's just an AI response to that question, why does thirst look like hunger? Says, Both hunger and thirst are signals from the brain that something is needed. And these signals can sometimes overlap. There's physical sensations when you're dehydrated. You might experience tiredness, a grumbling stomach, lightheadedness, which are also symptoms of hunger. There's brain confusion. Your brain might interpret these shared sensations as hunger leading you to eat instead of drink. And then there's digestion and dehydration. Eating can further dehydrate you, as digestion requires water. So, I just thought it was really interesting when I started to actually do a little bit of research on thirst from the physical standpoint that hunger can be the thing that we think we're actually experiencing when it's really, actually we're thirsty for something. And so going back to this account of the woman at the well and Jesus interaction with her. She thinks that she needs water to, you know, for her physical body. And Jesus is saying, I'm going to give you something that actually your spirit needs or your soul needs. And so, I just think that sometimes it's worth kind of looking at. Are the things that we're pursuing in this life, are they the things that we actually need? Or are they hungry signs when actually what we are experiencing is thirst? That's good. I thought it was interesting that the four elements that you need to survive—food, air, light, and water—Jesus is all of them, right? He is the bread of life, as in John 6:48, the breath of life in Genesis 2:7, the light of mankind in John 1:4, and living water in John 4:10. Super cool. All-encompassing of all those elements. Love that. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about the water too, and how it's like this soul thirst and a longing, right? A longing and need for God to have that soul thirst. And how when Jesus is offering that to the woman, it's like a fulfillment thing. Like it's the spirit, right? Like the water and spirit. And so, the fulfillment of the Lord's spirit for us, for the woman, like that's really the eternal thing, the eternal spring of living water he's talking about. And it brings me to this quick passage in John 7:37, Rivers of Living Water. "On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, 'If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."' Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Yeah. That's good. I guess. Growing up, I've heard this phrase. I'm sure some people are familiar with it, but it's kind of a, it's kind of a derogatory term referring to some women as being like thirsty girls. And I, whenever I read this passage specifically, I think of that term. And I think of, it's, for those who don't know, it's kind of meant to describe someone, especially a woman who's like thirsty for a man's attention. Especially like, just any means necessary to get a man's attention. I just think it's kind of coincidental that this woman also has had five husbands. And so, there's this kind of history of needing some level of affection or comfort in that way. And there's a lot of speculation as far as what her history truly was like. But I, I've always hated that term. It feels so mean-spirited. And I think that the interesting thing about thirst is that we're all thirsty about something, one thing or another, and God created us with a need for thirst. It just so happens that like, he created us with like, it's a need intended to direct us back to Him. And so, while it's considered to be this like, upsetting or like a, like a bad thing to need something or someone, it's actually God's design but intended to guide us back to Him, so. Good. That saying may have an actual sexual element to it as well. It does. I wasn't, I didn't want to shock our, like, older listeners, you know. Okay, just. But it does. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I think that's fitting for this passage as well because there's a lot of, I guess, like you can draw a lot of conclusions, I guess, based on that, that don't explicitly say that's what she was doing, but yeah. Yeah, the verse, the word "thirst" in the Greek, let's give a quick overview of that, meaning to thirst, to desire earnestly. Yeah, that verse there that you shared Ro, it kind of provides a little more specificity on what it is that Jesus is talking about. A lot of times that verse, it can just seem very kind of ambiguous in general, like I'm going to give you, you know, water and then, but I like how later it clarifies like it's the Holy Spirit, a person, the person of the Holy Spirit, a very specific explanation of who it is that provides what we need. And there's some Old Testament verses that talk about water as well in this way. Isaiah 55:1, “'Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.'" So, this imagery of thirst has, is used in the Old Testament as well, drawing that connection there between spiritual needs and using that analogy in human thirst as well. So, you spoke of things that might be substituted as thirst, substitute things that you think are satisfying that thirst, but aren't, it, so just kind of to stretch that out into more examples, what that could look like. What are some examples of things that would substitute that desire in this life? Right. I mean, it's like, as I've said so many times in prior podcasts, it's like what is at the top of, the most important thing in our lives? What is at the top of the hierarchy? And so, and really it can be anything. Anything can be the thing that we think, it can be the hunger signals. The thing, that confusion could be really anything. It can be a relationship. It can be money, success, power. It can be whatever it is that we have our most, that we focus the most on. If it's not God, if it's not Jesus, then that thing can work its way up to the place of most importance. And so, in this life, right, we're, a lot of us, were trying to figure out what is it that will fulfill us. I really think that's a huge, huge piece of what every person is trying to figure out. Whether they kind of know that explicitly or not, it's, we all want to have meaning and purpose in this life and we want fulfillment. And so, that is why a lot of us will go find that somewhere. But what I think is so interesting, I mean, it's. The things of this world can only satisfy the physical. Only Christ can satisfy the soul. And the longing is from the soul, not from the physical. But we can confuse those things. We can think that I'm satisfying the physical and it gives it the idea, or it gives a, just a brief reprieve from the longing of our soul. But it's more of a distraction, I think. It gets us through the day, perhaps, but at the end of the night, when the next day rolls around, we're still having a longing. And so, whatever it is that we think that we need, if it's not Christ, it's going to, well, it's going to be eating bread, thinking that's saving you, but it's really making it worse. And so, again, it's like the man lost at sea who's drinking sea water, eventually it will kill you. Yeah. Jenny Donnelly was just in town and she was speaking about idols. And this is exactly what they are, right? Is something that you look forward to in life to fulfill you. You've had a long day and you're really looking forward to your show, and that's going to be what end your day and how you end on a high note. Or like, this woman, she maybe had abandonment issues and she needed a husband, you know? Whatever that looks like, that we're putting before God as an idol and that's what we're seeking out instead of that thirst for Jesus. And she was talking about how if you're in a place where you just can't connect with God, where you're in worship and you just don't feel that connection with him, it's probably because there's an idol standing in the way. And when you actually worship at that idol, you're actually giving strength to it and taking away from, as you said, from your relationship with Jesus and actually making yourself thirsty in the process. You know, there's this thing about kind of like, the loyalty of the heart to God and how we can kind of compromise that in just trying to find relief or, like, refuge in something when we thirst. We're like, well, maybe this will help. And, like. And one of the things that comes up in therapy, that has come up a lot, is affairs and betrayal and how it's like, somebody might say, like, "I thought I was just like okay doing this. And then I'd realize it's the worst thing I've ever done in my life." Right? And so, it's just amazing how our hearts are kind of prone to, like, be disloyal to God and how we need to keep coming back. And it's definitely a struggle to kind of keep pursuing God, like in the same way that he pursues the woman at the well. She actually has to say, like, hey, give me this water. Like, she has to. I mean, she chooses to ask for it. And at some point, her disposition could have been like, oh, yeah, that's great and everything, and she could have turned away or something. But we have to actively try to pursue and to ask God to help us. Yeah, only God can satisfy. But it's hard. I guess what I'm saying is struggling, I think, especially right now, is actually a good thing, too. I think the spiritual struggle can be real just in purifying ourselves in this season and trying to kind of worship God better and to be closer. And I just want to say, like, the struggle, I feel like, it's a good sign, I think. So, being thirsty is not bad, right? To hunger and to actually, like, have this inner battle of trying to figure out, "How can I satisfy this, God?" Like, maybe I just don't have good ways of doing it. I need help. And I think it's. I almost want to be like, when people say, "Man, I'm really struggling." Because I know, like, when I'm really struggling, I don't want somebody to tell me, like, "Good, you should be struggling." But I do tell myself that, like, "Good, I do, I should be struggling," because that's a key indication that, like, I need to turn back to the Lord. Yeah. I love that. I love that too, that when we're pursuing God, he's also pursuing us. Like in the story of Hosea. Like, this man who married a prostitute. Kept running away, and he kept, God's like, go after her, go after her, go after her. And such a representation of who we are in our walk with God. Right? As we turn away and we, in our struggles, God is actively pursuing us and trying to turn us back toward him in that same time. Yeah. And like you're saying, Ro, it's like, the struggle. Be grateful for the struggle. Because like, in any relationship, the killer is indifference. Yeah. It's like when you're indifferent, then the relationship is just about dead, if not dead already. But if there's struggle, if there's pursuing, if there's something there, then that's something worth fighting for still, for sure. It's an indication that they still care. Right. You still care. Yeah. And C.S. Lewis has a quote. I'm kind of piggybacking again off of what you said, Ro. If we get to that point, or when we get to that point where it's, "Okay, I do need something more than just what this life can offer," and that struggle is there, C.S. Lewis writes, "If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world." And so, I think that speaks to, there's a longing in our souls. It's something that we're desperate for, and we'll do whatever we can to try to fill that void. But if it's not Christ, then we're going to come up short every time. Yeah. The way that Jesus describes it there, he says, "'The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.'” That can be contrasted with like, what would be like, the opposite of that? Like a stagnant water or water that's draining, you know? Right. So, welling up, that's the imagery that he's having is like abundance. Right. Yeah. And the alternatives are not very, Yeah, the opposites. Yeah. Not very enticing. Pretty gross. So that, that's very interesting there, I think. Yeah. So, you know, I've been watching House of David. I mean, you guys might have watched that. And so, like, there's actually like a part in the Psalms of David that is like, excellent for this point, because it's My Soul Thirsts for You. And so, Psalm 63, "A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah," and it says, "O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water. So I have looked upon you in the sanctuary, beholding your power and glory. Because your steadfast love is better than life," And the reason that also that that really hit me is because it says your love is better than life. And in the commentary, it says it's like the reference in the Old Testament that basically puts love above life, the value of love above life, which is really mind blowing because, like, I mean, even the idea of, like, Jesus realizing that his life is worth sacrificing out of love, it kind of puts love at the, in, on the throne of God. Right? Right. Where even the things of this life or even my life isn't worth as much as, like, loving God or being loved by God more accurately. So. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what is it like? There's no greater love than a friend who lays down his life for his friends. Right? And then Jesus says that, and he lays down his life for his friends. Incredible. Mandy, you were saying how God basically pursues us. And in a sense, that's kind of what Jesus was doing at the well. He, and this was a kind of interesting thing. He started by saying, "Give me a drink." So, in a sense, Jesus was saying, I—and we just heard this at church. There was a guest speaker at church today that kind of said this and got me thinking a little more. It's like, that's a good point. Like Jesus said, you have something I want. So, Jesus was basically saying that he was pursuing her and wanting something that she has. Verse 31 of chapter 4, John, chapter 4, "Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, 'Rabbi, eat.'” So, after they returned, they're like. And he, and Jesus said, "But he said to them, 'I have food to eat that you do not know about.'” Verse 34, "Jesus said to them, 'My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.'" So basically, Jesus is getting like sustenance in a sense from reaching out to the woman. Right? And then on the cross, Jesus said, "'It is finished.'" Right? And then later, when Jesus rises back from the dead, in Luke 24, verse 41, "And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, 'Have you anything here to eat?'" It's almost like, he's like, my work was now completed. That food is done. You got anything now? Now I'm hungry. Now I'm hungry. You all got a sandwich? I mean, it's like if it was like a. Right. Usually, it's described as portraying his humanity that he is not a ghost. Right. That he's physically present, and he wants to eat. But that sure did seem relevant to the woman at the well, saying that I have food to eat. And then it's finished, it is finished on the cross. And then do you have anything to eat? Yeah. Very interesting, I think. Yeah, yeah. So. That is really interesting. So, yeah, Jesus pursues us and that's like his sustenance in a sense there, so. We so much focus on what God is giving us that it can help us understand his heart, to know what he actually is getting in exchange for all the giving. Right? He's actually, I mean, he's self-sustaining, of course, he's God. But something about reaching out to people is actually like food for him. Right. And we know that Jesus is currently advocating for us. You know, he's still active. He intercedes for us. The. It says in Hebrews. So, anyway. Interesting take there on how it's kind of reciprocal. Yeah. And we should probably take note of that, too. Whereas, obviously we need food, we need water physically. If that's what fed Jesus, is to do ministry and to grow his kingdom, then that's what we need to be doing also. Being little Christs, it's, yeah, let's take note and let's be sure that we're also getting fed spiritually by doing the work and loving people and pursuing the lost and showing Christ's Love. Because, yeah, we'll be filled. I mean, just like Jesus was saying is, like, this is like, I'm getting fed. How much better could we feel spiritually if we do the work of Christ by showing his love to everybody in the way that he did, in the way that he showed us, in the way he does? Yeah. Which is so easy to do. I mean, anywhere you go, you meet people that are in need and everybody, and most people appreciate prayer when you offer it. I met a woman at Costco, was sitting on a crate and clearly upset and sat with her and just asked if I could pray. And she said, yes. Felt better afterwards. And you can ask the Lord, you know, when you wake up. There's a, actually a challenge, like, someone said, "I dare you to wake up and say, 'Who can I serve today? Who can I reach today, Lord, for you?'" And he will. He will absolutely bring that person to the gas station, to your work, wherever that looks like, the guy that comes to your door to deliver the package, you know, that just needs somebody to reach out to them and tell them that they're loved and they're cared for. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like a forced thing either. It's like, I remember when people would tell me that when I was growing up, saying, like, pray that God puts, you know, somebody in your path. I mean, when I was younger, I was like, well, that sounds kind of scary. Like, I don't know what I'm going to do if that happens. I don't know what to say. But, like, I think that just being aware, like, being mindful that God wants us to have an active part in his work, that's all that it means. And same, yesterday, talking with one of my neighbors, and her son is going to probably pass away in the next two months—adult son in his 50s, but going way earlier than anybody would have thought or expected—and just having the opportunity, to like, can I pray for you? And she says, sure. Doesn't take much. But to be mindful of it. We can easily let a moment like that pass without bringing some element of Christ into the conversation. Because, I mean, life is full of pain and people do need love, and they need to be shown love. And if we can just be mindful of that, then we'll definitely be more likely to at least, you know, okay, what would Jesus do? Yeah. What would he do in this moment? And that can really just, well, we're the light. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking more personally, like how often I've been like, struggling with something or needing something—thirsty, if you will—and what God does is not necessarily provide something like to immediately satiate that thirst, but provides an opportunity like you guys are talking about. Like, the more that God opens doors for me to be available to somebody else, it provides, and I think maybe for me personally it's like connection. Like I'm always craving connection. And I think that that's probably realistic to everyone, but that it isn't always what I'm thinking is going to happen, but it's an open door into ministering to somebody else or just being like a listening ear or a shoulder to cry on or even just someone to have fun with. Like if someone needs like whatever it is and how like the enemy often wants to isolate us and that can only like increase that kind of thirst. And then you go to places that you didn't mean to go to and whatnot. But I do think it's interesting that like, you're talking about like the food for Jesus is that he's providing for other people and you're saying the same thing, you know, God will allow that to be the means that he goes through to quench that thirst for us. So. Yeah, and it's super crazy how the Lord is reaching out to, so, he's pursuing the woman and us, and we're sort of called to do the same as you said, Jon, for us to reach out to others, to be the kind of people that, you know, do feed the hungry, that clothe the naked, that give drink to the thirsty. I think that's a call in our lives to imitate Jesus and like, he's eating that food and that's, he's trying to give us that sustenance. And so, if we can use that as well. Like, so, it blows my mind how like the Lord is thirsty for us even and how like, you know, that is kind of a mystery, right? Like, what makes us so. Obviously, well, we're his children. But also, it's like, hard to understand as a man. Like, wow, like Jesus or God actually thirsts for us and he pursues us. And then I think as he fills our cup, it kind of allows us to do the same for other people. It's just, the last image that came up around that was like, you know, like the tree, right? Like, if we're not plugged into the, to the right water, if the water from, you know, from above isn't there, then the tree is not going to give good fruit. And so, we need to give good fruit by his Spirit. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, something I thought was really, actually just kind of piggybacking off what you had mentioned earlier, how Jesus goes, I think it's interesting how Jesus asked the woman, yeah, for a drink, and then he then, you know, offers her, you know, the water which will give her eternal life. And I think that it's such a, it's such a Jesus move. It's like, let me give you something small, and then I will give you in return something far better. And so, the woman at the well is a great example of that. The feeding of the 5,000 is a great example of that. Here's some fish and some bread, and he multiplies it. And so, it's like Jesus is asking for small, and he was going to return it huge. And just to, oh, and I'm sure there's more examples in the Bible where it's a little bit given and then much is replied where there's like, the prophet that asked the woman for the last of her, you know, food. Do you remember what prophet that was? Elijah. Was it Elijah? Yeah. And then. Yeah. She's like. He's like. It's like, this is all we're going to have. I'm going to bake this last little bit of bread, and then me and my son are going to die. He's like, all right, I'll take that. Sure. And then she does. And then she has bread for, you know, very long time. Like, it didn't run out. And so, I just love how that's, it's time and time again, you see that in Scripture. You give a little bit—or in her case, it was everything she had—and, but God won't let you hang. Yeah. Really good point. Very good. Gotta give God my. What is it? Two fishes and five loaves. I forget the numbers. Two and five. Five loaves? Yeah, that's true. I like. It's actually a great podcast with Jordan Peterson and Dallas Jenkins, and Jenkins talking about how he looks at the work that he does now not in the view of, like, how many views will his product get or how much income, but basically, I know what I'm supposed to do, so here's my fish and loaves. I don't, it doesn't matter what God does with that. That's his business. My business is to produce the fish and the loaves. It's his to do what he will with it. And I think it's such a good way to kind of think about what we're doing on, you know, in this life is we don't need to look at outcome. We need to look at what he's given us and then he will do what he will with it. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. The Spirit led life would likely be customized to each person's individual gifts or talents, aspects of their personality or interests or creativity or skills or something like that. It could like enhance those things. And so, a Spirit filled life for a director like Dallas Jenkins, that'll look one way and then a Spirit filled life for, you know, someone skilled in something else, who knows how it could look. But it's all working together. All of it working together. There's lots of people on the cast and crew, for example, that have different skills, I'm sure, that are also living Spirit filled lives. I think that just means like we all have something to contribute then. I think it's a pretty beautiful thing when you know someone. I have a friend who, no matter what, she always gives a birthday gift to somebody and even if it's like a very small thing or something that she made or scrounged up. And I like when I used to give gifts, I would feel bad if like they didn't cost a certain amount or I like, I'd feel really like I was like always paycheck to paycheck sort of thing. So, I felt like just weird about not getting a certain thing. But I just noticed this friend, she's kind of the same way, but she's just really good about always having something to offer somebody. And I love this part of her personality. I think it's a beautiful thing and it's really cool that God uses us in that same way like you're talking about. We each have something that we can contribute and it's all valuable to the Lord. And even if it's like a small offering and this, there's like patterns of that all throughout the word. But like what I can offer the Lord may be just what is needed, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, different parts, one body and he's the head. Yeah. I mean that's just how it is. Yeah. It goes with churches as well. You have this church is such a good church for ministry and healing and this church is great for the worship in this great at, you know, etc. Yeah. God is so diverse and all of that and I love it. Yeah. I love how you put that, Dr. Jon, to like forget about the outcome and doing things for their own sake. Because I think that, I mean, if I could live that way, it's such a great paradigm shift. Like if I just. If you do what like God puts in your heart to do, just because that's enough, like, I'm just giving you what I have right now. It's not about where I can get. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting because that, it plays to a lot of different areas of life. But like what comes to my mind just now, it's like when, like growing the kingdom, like actually people, you know, accepting Christ, it's like where in the Scriptures does it say, like, some will be, you know, part of the harvest, but some will be planters, some will be. It's like some people, they'll never necessarily win a soul, quote unquote over to Christ in like walking through the sinner's prayer, but they may be the one that plants the seeds and like spreads like, you know, all these different people gets the ball rolling. So then, it can manifest it itself into, you know, salvation later on. It's like, yeah, we all, yeah. Don't despise small beginnings, I suppose, or gifts that don't seem like they're as big as someone else's. Right. Because I mean, you might be a pinky toe, but it helps with balance. So. You're needed. It's a pretty big deal, actually. It's a pretty big deal. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, even the idea of like, I can only can, I can only do what I am supposed to be doing and then however people are going to respond to that is on them, which is really a good lesson for life in every aspect. And I think of that, even with what you're saying, there are like certain gifts that I have, but I'm, I overthink how I'm going to present them to the world and like how it's going to be received, and I really can't control anyone else's like, response to that. And in this very simple, like, I am a special education teacher and there's often times where I have to give hard information to my kids and it might just be you now have a consequence to ABCD. And I have never, I have never once been like, well, I'm not going to say this because they might get upset. Like, I just know they're going to get upset. And we just, we, we know what we have to do, and we know that it's going to get some sort of response, and we will cross that bridge when we get there. And I just love how that you said that, though, because I'm like, I do that with little kids. I could do that. Right. Yeah. I could do that with bigger things too, you know, like. Yeah. However people are going to respond, it's how they're going to respond. So. Well, it's like, I don't know if the Scripture says explicitly, like, how the kid with the feeding of 5,000 came to be. Like, if the disciples were asking everybody has any food or the kid's like. But like, can you imagine this kid's like, maybe he's like, it was being impressed upon him to give what he had over to like, one of the disciples. And the kid's, like, what, are you kidding me? Like, I got like, nothing here. Yeah. It'd be like, I don't know, like, got like a Lunchable and I'm like sitting there as a little kid, like, I've got my Lunchable. Right. I mean, it's like. I don't know. It's one of those things where it's like, I wonder what that kid was feeling when he offered it. If he was like, well, I don't have much to give. But then like, he did. He gave what he had. And then like, look at what was done with it. Yeah. And so, I think that we all have those, I think we probably have a lot of those moments, like every day. I feel like it would be just like a kid to be like, I have this and I can share it. That could be too. Right. Just my experience with my kids, at least. It's like, they're not really considering, like, hey, that's a goldfish cracker. But they're like, do you want some? You know, they're prone to sharing, I guess. Yeah. Well. Act like little kids. You know, the woman, her response. I feel like that's also valuable for what it's worth because, like, we still have to make a choice to, like, back to the "Believe" episode, we have to make a choice to respond to the call. Right? Like, that. It. Maybe I'm just kind of thinking of, like, sometimes people will say, well, like, there's no. Like, what's the difference? You can't prove anything. But one really interesting thing I think about that is, like, it's much better to have a false positive. Like, so just hypothetically, humor me, guys. A false positive. Like, if there really wasn't any God, like, I'm still better off believing. Like, if it's like a just in case thing, I'm way better off believing in God because if I'm wrong and I'm like, there's no God and I'm wrong, like, I mean, there's logically. I mean, even logically, it doesn't make sense to not believe in God. Right. Because you can't. You don't know that there's no God. There's no way that. Because that's not true. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Yeah. And it takes far more work to try to believe there's no God. Far more work. You know, going back to the reciprocal relationship. I love that he asked her for water first because isn't that required of us? Like in the continued relationship, those fountain of living waters within us, it's us seeking God, right? And then he can fill us and us seeking God and him filling us. And it's continuous because it's a lifelong process. Right? Then we can overflow out to others around us. And just like when Jesus went out of his way to go seek out this woman—I mean, we've said this, he's coming and going out of his way to seek us—and we have that opportunity to go and do that for others. And that may be going into another land. But, you know, Canada's not that far. It's far enough. There is a, what is that psychological principle of if you want to get on someone's good side, ask a favor from them? Right. Yeah. And that's essentially what Jesus did, right? The Benjamin Franklin effect. The Benjamin Franklin effect. Yeah. And I mean, Jesus really did model that in a way, didn't he? I just wonder if, we also were to model that in witnessing, in presenting, you know, in living a Spirit led life to those to whom God would want us to interact with and talk with, ask a favor first. Maybe. It's a great little open door just to get the conversation going. Yeah. I'm trying to think how that would look on the streets of Seattle. "Hi, I'm here to tell you about Jesus. First, can you give me a sandwich?" It's like can you help me carry my bag over to there? I wonder if that's your way of like feeding someone. Maybe they haven't given in a while and then they give you a sandwich and they feel fulfilled. Maybe that's your way of feeding them spiritually. Actually, people do try to give gifts often, and I've learned that you, you know, you take those gifts because it is that part of it. It is, yeah. It is a blessing to be able to give. I feel like it shows humility, is like, Jesus can get his own water. But it shows this, like, vulnerability, I guess, like, in that I'm not better than you, necessarily. Even though Jesus clearly is, but, that idea, I think it's hard for people to accept gifts freely. And so, when we come in with, like, our own need, I think that that makes them a little more, it feels a little more level playing field, I guess. So, it might have been a very strategic move on Jesus's part. I'm. I. I'm not sure. I would have to, like, dig a lot further in the Bible, but I'm not sure that Jesus needs me to give him water. But I think it is an aspect of, like, it's a level play—he's trying to, he's trying to provide something for this woman, and he's kind of setting the tone there. So, yeah, I mean, need would be a pretty strong word for God. Or want. Or want. Right. Want might be. Want, I think would be probably more applicable. But, again, I feel like that's like a, like that's a theology we could go into for a long time. And, we probably have to study that out before I just run my mouth, but. That's really powerful, though. Yeah, I do think it's that kind of just setting that relationship aspect. But he's just. He's not too proud. So. It's really deep. Chooses to need us. Chooses to have a, put himself in that place of vulnerability to ask that of us. Yeah. And I love. I mean, I love that. I love this whole story. I love that he goes out of his way and goes into a land that his disciples didn't want to walk into for the prejudice in their hearts. I love that he broke that. I love that he chose this woman. You know, I love that there was nothing that she had to do to get that water. Like, she didn't have to attain perfection. She didn't have to leave this man. She didn't have to do anything. He was just willing to give and, but he asked of her first. Like, it's an open door, that invitation to come to him. It's a really beautiful thing, too, because, like, you were saying, like, if somebody asks something of us, it makes it more kind of like, mutual. Like, there's a vulnerability that, like, somebody's willing to need me as well. And it's really interesting, like you're saying, like, you were saying, like, Jesus is willing to need us at some point. Like, if you feed somebody on the street, it's like, you know, what do they say? Like, the least of these. It's like, you did it to me. Right? It's like the Lord inside somebody who's in trouble. Like, it's. You're loving God inside that person. Yeah. I think that is the nature of relationship, too. It's like a reciprocal need, want, etc. Yeah. So. And I don't know, we can cut this out if you want because we're kind of getting really off track. But, like, biblically, before God even created man, like, he was in a relationship with himself. Like, the triune Godhead had relationship in and of himself, and he created man as, like, a companion almost for him. Like, he. He desired us so strongly that he created us. And so, there are a lot of, there's a lot of support for, like, what you're talking about there, but yeah. There's, that's a whole other discussion too, but we could go real deep. But the idea that everything that this earth has been through, he said it was worth it. And he said this was the right way to go. And he said that even what we're looking at today in the world is for an eternal, an eternal perspective, it's so worth it to have that relationship between us. Right. Yeah. That's huge. I mean, that's huge. You could really sit and ponder that for a really long time and just try to wrap your mind around that. It kind of blows my mind. Like, the more I, like, I'm like, I. My brain is only here when it comes to what God did in the beginning. I think for eternity, we're gonna be in that place. Like, wow. Like, wow. Yeah. This was so worth it to you that you decided to create me and bring me to this place. That's amazing. Yeah. Can I share something real quick? Sure. No. This is not for sharing, this podcast. No, it's, this is like. This is so, so, so cool. Like, just the part where Jesus says, I thirst, like when he's on the cross. Oh, yeah. So, if you go to John 28 [chapter 19, verse 28], "After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), 'I thirst.' A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, 'It is finished,' and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." Yeah. Another time that he thirst. So there. That connection between spirit and life. Romans, chapter 8 kind of goes into a little more elaboration that. Romans 8, starting in verse 5, "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace." So, Jesus talked about life welling up. The water that he will give will be a wellspring, welling up to life. And later on, that's the Spirit, right? So. It's life itself. It's, the opposite, again, is death. Right? And so very life is found in this water. Yeah. Right? Can I interject? We're also spirit beings, right? This, our natural state of being is not flesh, but spirit. And so, when we let go of the flesh and step fully into spirit we're stepping into that. Well, yeah, yeah. And that, that's kind of that. One kind of common thing we can kind of keep talking about in this podcast is deception. I mean, we've mentioned it before, deception and then reality. Right? And just being alive and looking at your physical body, you can be deceived into thinking that you're fully alive. Right. But what the Scripture is saying is that there's life, spiritual life, that is separate. Right? Yeah. That is to be sought after. So. Yeah. Yeah. It even says our spirits were with God from the foundation of the earth. Right? So, our natural state of being is to be connected to God, like almost like an umbilical cord. Right? And so, in this invitation that he's saying, come to me, you're, when you're thirsty is like reconnecting that umbilical cord almost. Right? Connecting your spirit through the Holy Spirit back to God and his spirit and having that place within us that is created just to have that relationship with him. In the Christian vernacular, we say it's the God sized hole in us. Right? But it's really our spirits calling out to spirit. Right. Yeah. And the fact that Jesus is using like water, that, you don't have water for three days, you're dead. Yep. And that's how he's explaining the importance of what he has to offer is we're talking about life and death here. And more so than just like the physical, we're talking about an eternity is at stake. And so, he's using this opportunity to, yeah, water gives life, but the water that he gives gives eternal life. And so that is something huge because the significance is a life and death situation. Yeah. And the love that he gives is even more important than life. I mean, Jesus is willing to surrender his life. Like love is more important than even life. Right. But that's really just flesh he's giving up. Right? I mean, true. Yeah. So, I think there's an understanding of that. I think we see death so differently than God does. And not to get way off on a tangent, but, you know, we see death as an ending, but it's really the beginning of eternity. We're already in eternity. Eternal, spiritual life. Yeah. Right. All right, Any closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of thirst? Yeah, so this might be a little bit longer closing thought, so just bear with me for a second. So, J.C. Ryle, he writes, and this was in the vlog, The truth, the principle here laid down may be seen on every side by all who are not limited or blinded by prejudice or love of the world. Thousands of men have every temporal good thing that heart could wish and are yet weary and dissatisfied. So, there was a research study that was done back in 2023 by the Sine Institute of Policy and Politics at American University. And so, these interviewed 1,568 people between the ages of 18-34, asking them, what is the American dream? And the top response is feeling personally happy and fulfilled. So, that's like the number one thing that people say, this is what the American dream is. And then the question, another question was, how do you get that? And the number one response there is my own work and effort. And so, if the top is to find happiness and fulfillment and we do that through our own works and effort, we're going to come up shy, we're going to come up way short. Big time. And that just calls back to my, you know, thinking I was hungry when really I was thirsty. And there was a moment there when I was feeling like I needed something in my system. And when I started to, like, More effort, more pizza, more egg rolls. I'm telling you, More ham sandwiches. When I. All of the above. Hit me again, Cook Carl. It was like, more, more. Yep, yep. This finger over my head just tapping down. I don't want to see the bottom of this plate. Exactly. So, like, I was feeling pretty good for like five minutes when I was eating like my own personal pizza, the ham sandwich, like legit. Like, that was what I was just eating, a lot of bread. And then all of a sudden it hit me like a ton of bricks where it's like, oh, my gosh, like this, something, that did not fix the problem. But for a window, for that five to 10 minutes, I felt really good. Like, I felt like I was getting exactly what I needed. And my thought is, I wonder how many of us are in that window. It's not five or 10 minutes, but could be years where we're feeling really actually pretty good. We think that we're doing it. We think that what we are doing is working and helping. And, but if we're thirsty and we're really, and we are trying to solve that with eating, I wonder where we're at as far as, are we actually slowly spiritually dying? And in that moment at Universal, I was, I was not, I was far from it still, but I was in the process of dying. If I hadn't drank something in the next few hours, maybe, you know, for sure, the next day, my organs would start to shut down. Like, I would start to, I would start to get a massive temperature. My blood pressure would go way up. So anyways, all that to say is that in that moment I felt really good and, but it's not what I needed. And from a spiritual standpoint, are we satisfying a spiritual need with physical elements? I think we'll need to post that picture on the website, go with the podcast. Personally, brought me a lot of joy. I keep picturing it in my head. It's a rough picture. It's nice that somebody had, like, the wherewithal to think that that was the best thing to do in that moment was take a picture of me. Well done, Chris. Remember these moments. For posterity. For posterity. Yeah. Just that, like, we. I think we're always looking for anything, so anything that seems beautiful or good or true. Yeah, sometimes we. I think, maybe even in the world, I think, because people have, like, some glimpses of what it means to be filled. Like, you're talking about, like, my career. Like, am I working hard enough or am I making the right amount of salary? And like, all these things can seem like, good, beautiful and true. Or maybe there's they're partly good things or, right? They have some value. And I think our souls kind of are looking for, like, a more meaningful level and because. Well, because God is like beauty itself. God is goodness itself and truth itself. But I think we are. Yeah, we have a lack for God, and it's also a longing. And that's what we've been talking about with thirst, is that we need God and that's the only thing that ultimately fulfills without end. Right. Yeah. And so, yeah, just thinking of that, of like, okay, it's okay for me to be thirsty. I'm going to embrace that struggle. And it sometimes is, it really sucks sometimes, to be quite honest, but also, like, but it, but it's okay to know, oh, I'm looking for a deeper, good, beautiful and true presence of. Right. Yeah. And to your point, yeah, those things aren't bad. Right? Career, earning a good income, pursuing education. I mean, yeah, I mean, I pursued a doctorate, so in, education is very important to me, obviously. In a private practice. So, you know, creating something, you know, is a, it's a good thing in my life as long as it's not the most important. And that's what it would come down to. They're all good things. They're not necessarily the most important thing. I think I'm trying to figure out how to formulate this thought. I once heard a message on this passage in which the pastor kind of described a lot of different thirsts, like we've been talking about, could be equivalent to idolatry in our lives. Different things, and I think different things that we go to, to quench those thirsts. And he pointed out that at the end of the message, like at the end of the story, she ended up leaving her water jar at the well. Like, whatever she found in Jesus was so powerful enough that she didn't need the water jar anymore. And I just, I'm struck with that thought of, like, are there things like, I guess like that I'm holding on to—a water jar, if you would—that is leading me back to those same things where I am temporarily satisfied, but I'm unwilling to, like, let it go in order to fully lean in and trust the Lord to satiate and satisfy that desire. So. That's funny, because I'm sitting here thinking the same thing. Like, what is in my life that I've been looking to instead of Jesus? What are those idols that I've put before him? And like, for me, at the end of the day, I love being in front of a good movie, right? And kind of wind down the day. But I am, I'm looking at it in a different light now. Am I looking at it a place of, "Is this how excited I get about spending time with Jesus?" You know, is this, would I be so satisfied to spend this time, these moments with Jesus and feel as fulfilled and content as I do watching a movie? And I think I don't. And I think that's something that I need to work on and find my way to, to having that right heart set, to having Jesus first in my life. Yeah, that's really good. And maybe it's a better way of even putting it, when I was given my last thought is, yeah, how many times in my life, you know, perhaps, you know, that window, when I was feeling really good eating the pizza when I really need water, yeah, how could I, what types of things might I be engaged with? And like, even looking back, that perhaps it was that it wasn't the best. Right. It was. It might have been even good, but it wasn't the best. Yeah. Also, I just love that it was pizza and not necessarily something more nutritious like that your body might have really needed. There might have been salads there. You're like, "Yeah, I was feeling really good." No. No kidding. Yeah. It's like when people say I'm hungry for ice cream. That's like, I'm not hungry for, in general. Right. Just ice cream. Yeah. Well, that wraps it up for this episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Thank you for listening. We look forward to another episode again soon. Take care everybody. Peace. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. 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