Episode Transcript
We're at that age. What was that? Make sure there's no bats in the cave kind of thing?
Yep. You know that's right. Just checking it out.
How am I doing?
You're doing good, man. You're doing good.
We're all. We're all looking good.
Bats in the cave refers to boogers.
Boog.
Oh, gosh. Okay.
Bats in the cave.
I haven't heard that one. Thank you. I've learned something today.
Yeah. We haven't even got started.
That's right, we're learning.
Not exactly the takeaway I was anticipating, but.
No, I think, yeah, we can. We can revisit, you know, who I am after, when you start, you see all my sense of humor that may or may not land.
The word of the day, boog.
After an hour we see.
Define boog.
You could go straight into a joke with that one about boogers.
That's true.
Do you know the hanky one, obviously? I think everyone does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everyone nose.
Everyone.
Oh.
Yes.
That was really good.
How do you make a tissue dance?
Yeah. How do you make a hanky dance, I think. Right?
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
What's a po-tah-to?
Gosh.
Wait, what's the punchline?
Put a little boogie in it.
Put a little boogie. See, he didn't know.
Man, I didn't.
Did we record all that?
Yeah.
That was good.
Solid.
Everybody nose.
Blooper reel.
I think it's hanky.
Okay. How do you make a hanky dance?
It's the only way it's funny.
Not a tissue.
Even. Even I'm too young for that word.
Hanky. Yeah. What is this the 1930s?
Yeah.
How do you make a handkerchief dance?
I am a very old-fashioned lady. I've never heard it your way.
Yeah, it's way different.
Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
My name is Chris, your host. We are joined once again with special education teacher Robyn Nelson, pastor and licensed clinical social worker Kathy Myhre.
Of course, Dr. Jon, psychologist and author.
How are you?
And my brother.
And for the first time in the studio, Jami Troy, project manager and longtime friend of Dr. Jon and myself. Welcome, Jami.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for being here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, like you said, I'm a longtime friend of the Troll family. I love each and every one of them. What's up, pops?
You know that's right. That's respect. That's respect.
I got to get respect to Jake Troll. Yeah. Project manager, construction guy. Devoted follower of Jesus.
Worship leader as well on occasion?
Done some, done some worshiping, done some leading, done some guitar work.
Yeah.
Okay. Well, welcome everybody.
We are in the book of John, chapter 4. We're looking at Jesus talking with the woman at the well. Our word of the day is "worship." We're going to focus in on that word as found in John 4:16-26. I'll read that out of the ESV.
"Jesus said to her, 'Go, call your husband, and come here.' The woman answered him, 'I have no husband.' Jesus said to her, 'You are right in saying, "I have no husband"; for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.' The woman said to him, 'Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.' Jesus said to her, 'Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.' The woman said to him, 'I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.' Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am he.'"
So, there was a talk about worship and top line thoughts around the room, and we'll come on back for further discussion. But go ahead, Dr. Jon.
Yeah, absolutely. So I think it, one of the things that just kind of stood out to me is kind of a 30,000 foot observation, I suppose, is the woman, she was talking to Jesus and then Jesus, basically, reads her mail a little bit and saying, I know that you don't have a husband, you've had five and the current one is not your husband. So, David Jeremiah, I was reading this passage through his study Bible and he kind of makes note that it seems like she was a little bit embarrassed at that point because she changes the topic really quick. And there's some thought that maybe it is a little bit embarrassing to be, you know, to be recognized in that way. And then I love how Jesus basically uses that and then just tells her a little bit more like the deeper stuff, like what she needs to hear. And I think that's just how Jesus operates. So many times. It's. We think we know what we want, but Jesus, when we're in connection and we're in communication with him, he'll cut to the matter of what we actually need. And that was just one of the first things that I kind of noticed from that portion.
Yeah, I mean, the opening thoughts that I was kind of realizing as I was going through it is, you know, she definitely had a lot of shame, right? She was there at the middle of the day, and obviously she wasn't expecting to get, first of all to be revealed who the Messiah is. Right? Like, she hit the jackpot as far as being at the right place at the right time.
Right.
And then like you were saying, she talks about, you know, you say to worship over here. We Samaritans believe we worship over here. And then Jesus lays it on her like, you know, there's coming a time when we're going to worship, know when God's looking for true worshippers. And she. I think she got more than she bargained for, you know, at that time. And it's pretty cool, like, how redemptive this whole thing lays out, right? You know, with this broken woman. And then she's getting, you know, the true word from Jesus and he's redeeming her and then laying out, you know, what it looks like to worship. And, you know, he's also looking forward to what's to happen after he goes on the cross and after that. So that's just a quick, just a quick overview of the, of the thoughts.
Excellent.
Yeah, he was like multi-tasking. I mean, he was doing a lot all at once.
He was.
He was like helping heal her from her shame, telling about basically what's coming at the cross, telling about actually what worship truly is. I mean, that's a lot all at once. Yeah, that was good.
Well, the shame thing stood out for me as well. And I was talking to Jon before we started today, and I think traditionally we would look at this woman as somebody, a woman of ill repute, but in these days, women did not have a right to divorce. So, this is a woman who had been abandoned five times by five different men. And we don't know why that happened, but we do know that as we do today, the society in that day tends to blame the victim, tends to blame us for our adversity. And I don't think there's a person sitting at the table that, you know, hasn't experienced that, because that is the element of shame that somehow I brought upon myself whatever adversity that I'm facing and society and even the church can reinforce that. The other thing that stood out for me, kind of like what Jami was saying is, you know, the essence of shame, shame sends us into hiding. And so, she quickly changes, switches the conversation from a heart matter, which could be very, you know, painful and vulnerable to, you know, from a heart topic to a head topic. And I just think, you know, when I see people in my office, how often we stay in our head and don't go into our heart. And as we're talking about the whole topic of worship, I think that's a key point that Jesus is making. That worship is not just something we do behaviorally from our head, but it's really a heart expression of surrender to the Lord of adoration and relationship. And so, shame will, you know, prevent us from really entering into that as we move into hiding. So, that's what stands out to me.
One thing that came to mind for me was, here it comes. I think I just, on the topic of worship, was thinking about him saying, like, you worship what you do not know, and why would we worship what we don't know? Which I think was a question that you posted when we started discussing this topic. And I thought about my life before knowing Jesus, which again, I was 15, so I was quite young, but I thought about the things that were like, so important to me that you could say I worshiped and it would be like a boy band or like a certain book that I thought was so super great. And I just remember, and even sometimes knowing Jesus, the things that we worship like, that we give our heart to, we give our mind to, it's like for us, part of our identity. And I think of so many people that I know, like, we find things that are rarely important to us, and we give ourselves to those things. And it almost is this thing of, like, I don't know who I am without that thing. Like, what we worship is it like contrives what our identity is, I guess. And I think it's interesting the way that you guys are bringing up this concept of shame. And then he's like, juxtaposing it now with worship, as if to say, like, worship could be possibly, I don't want to say a cure, but like a remedy, even like the balm that you need in order to, like, realign your identity with who you truly are. So, well.
I like that.
Well, it'd be interesting if her identity, over the course of being divorced five times, is as a divorced woman and then him, Jesus ushering her into a new identity. And it's almost like you were saying, it's like an antidote to shame, worship, because then I can focus my attention on the thing greater than me, the thing that I'm going towards, not the thing that I feel like has been holding me back.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah. Her background certainly appears to have a fractured history of love and relationship. And in some ways I wonder if there's a connection there with Jesus saying, you worship what you do not know, and the Jews worship what they do know. And going back to that account, that, in 2 Kings where they're talking about kind of the initial time of the Samaritans, they're kind of their starting point, in 2 Kings 17, starting in verse 26.
"So the king of Assyria was told, 'The nations that you have carried away and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the law of the god of the land.'"
And then skipping on to 27.
"Then the king of Assyria commanded, 'Send there one of the priests whom you carried away from there, and let him go and dwell there and teach them the law of the god of the land.'”
So, the background of her people group is that she's learning about what is like a local deity.
And Matthew Henry has a commentary on that.
"They worshipped the God of Israel, the true God (Ezra 4:2; 2 Kgs. 17:32); but they were sunk into gross ignorance; they worshipped him as the God of that land (2 Kgs. 17:27, 33), as a local deity, like the gods of the nations, whereas God must be served as God, as the universal cause and Lord."
So, what I'm seeing is like in the same way that she kind of was seeking in relationships, perhaps with multiple husbands, perhaps there's a parallel to just incorporating God among other gods, like a local deity among other gods that they may have worshiped as well. Now, I don't know about her specifically or, you know, the text doesn't go too much into her own personal faith. But as a people group, it wasn't unheard of that the Samaritans might have actually still had some of that historical background where they're not truly devoted only to the God of Israel. They might have just had him as one of multiple gods, little "g" in their lives. So anyway, that's an opening thought there. And the importance of worship being with God, monogamous.
Right.
So to speak, right?
Yeah. And there's a commentary, Barnes' Notes on the Bible, which kind of speaks to that, that part of the Scripture that says you don't know what you worship. His notes are,
"This probably refers to the comparative ignorance and corruption of the Samaritan worship. Though they received the five books of Moses, yet they rejected the prophets, and of course all that the prophets had said respecting the true God. Originally, also, they had joined the worship of idols to that of the true God...They had, moreover, no authority for building their temple and conducting public worship by sacrifices there. On all these accounts they were acting in an unauthorized manner. They were not obeying the true God, nor offering the worship which he had commanded or would approve. Thus, Jesus indirectly settled the question which she had proposed to him, yet in such a way as to show her that it was of much less importance than she had supposed."
And yeah, I just think that that was something that was interesting, the whole concept of ignorance. And I started to think also, like, kind of a practical side of things, like, what would that look like as far as, like, wanting to show devotion but not necessarily understanding what you're doing? It's kind of like if you're like in a relationship, it seems, and there's the five love languages, right? And you're trying to show affection to your partner in a way that is like, it's not landing and it's not. I mean, this isn't a great, like a perfect, like one-to-one comparison, but it's like, this isn't what I. This isn't what I want. This isn't. This is like you're giving me gifts and I want quality time, but you keep on giving me trinkets and more trinkets and it's piling up and just like, cool, I got all this junk in my house. I just want to spend an hour with you. And so, it's like you don't really know what you're doing. Let me show you what true worship is. And I love that that's the opportunity that Jesus obviously took here. Again, just kind of jumping right in, talking about something that's uncomfortable to her and her bringing up worship. And he's like, all right, I can roll with that. So, let's talk about worship. I'm going to blow your mind right now. And so, yeah, that was something that kind of, I was picking up too.
I think when we talk about worshiping, you know, in truth and spirit, I don't think we can understand what he's talking about as truth without understanding Romans 1. Can I read that real quick? Would that be okay? And I'm reading this out of the NIV. This is Romans 1:18. Says,
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God"
Well, let's just end there. But I just, you know, I mean, this is the whole basis, I believe, of mission work, is that God has prepared hearts. You know, you can't look at creation without seeing a, you know, order and purpose. Even though we try to argue against it, you know, some of the indigenous people of every country, you'll see worshiping the earth and giving adoration to a deity, you know, beyond them for the gifts that they have. And so, there's something in us, in his, you know, even in the beauty that he's created the world and that makes us want to look above ourselves to find meaning and to worship. And then, I mean, I think about Paul walking through Athens, and they even had a, you know, they even had an altar to an unknown God, just in case we missed one. Right? And so, I think we are all looking for something to worship, but what Jesus is saying is we must worship in truth. There is one God, and, you know, His Son is Jesus, and no one comes to the Father except through him.
Yeah. And when the Israelites were being formed by God and he gave the Ten Commandments. Right? Right up there, is you will have no other God but me. Because, and I think to your point, Kathy, it's, there's something inside of us that, we long to worship. That's part of our human makeup, is to worship. And. Yeah, if it's not God, it's going to be something.
That's right.
Yeah. Because you mentioned Paul and him going and seeing, like there's gods that aren't even, like, just in case, gods of the unknown. Right? The Scripture, it's Acts 17:22-23, says,
"So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: 'Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: "To the unknown god." What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.'"
And then he goes on to say, you know what the one true God is. So, there was an article in Forbes magazine that came out a while ago, and it's titled, The Most Dangerous Phrase in Business: We've Always Done It This Way. So, by Ben Zimmerman. I think, it goes back to the account of the woman at the well and Jesus saying, you like you don't even know who you're worshiping. And it's like, same thing in Athens, like you don't even know what you're worshiping, who you're worshiping. You're just. Just in case. Right? And so, this is from a business standpoint, but I thought it was interesting. So, it says,
"Back in 2000, when Netflix was still an up-and-comer, Reed Hastings, the company’s CEO and cofounder, proposed a partnership to Blockbuster’s CEO, John Antioco. He suggested a plan in which Netflix would handle Blockbuster’s online services, and Blockbuster would manage Netflix’s physical DVD rentals. Netflix had just begun subscription services, and Hastings saw a future in this model. However, as the story goes, Hastings was laughed out of the room.
Rather than partner up, Blockbuster continued to focus on physical rental stores. That same year, the company even turned down an offer to purchase Netflix for $50 million. In 2007, Blockbuster saw new leadership and a shift in its business strategy that emphasized online streaming. But it was too late. In 2010, Blockbuster filed for bankruptcy protection due to losses, debt and competition from Netflix and other on-demand services."
And so, to do things just because other people have done it and to not adapt, even people of faith, even Christians that are believers, just because their parents are. It needs to be your own. It's like, you can't, you should not do things just because the generations before you did it. It has to be personal. And so, I think that's a great account of how that happened in business where a failure happened majorly because, well, we've already done it this way. Like, it's kind of like, you know, why change it if we've always done it this way? Oh, yeah.
All right.
I just, I really appreciated your little analogy on, like, the love languages because one of the questions that came up for me while I was studying was like, what does it look like to worship in spirit and truth? And if. And my thought also is like, I tend to be very practically minded and it's not, I think that was a great analogy because my heart behind it isn't just to check off a box and make sure, like, I worship Jesus today, but like, is it—the way that you described that—is this landing and is what I'm doing bearing fruit for the Lord as well as for myself, as well as in the kingdom? And I think that, like, if you guys have any thoughts on that, but like just being like the practical person that I am, like, what is, what was our day to day look like as people who worship the Lord no longer necessarily at a temple or in a ritualistic way, but now that you know, we have the Holy Spirit and our temples are, or our bodies are temples of the living God, like what, like, what is, like, can I go to bed at night thinking, like, did I connect with my Lord today or did I not? Like, what does that, I guess, like, look like for you guys in more of a practical sense?
Yeah.
Well, it reminds me of, I got this verse here, Romans, actually the entire chapter of Romans 12 kind of spoke to that, to me. And I've always looked at verse 1 as a standalone verse. And out of the ESV, it says,
"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."
And that verse tends to be like one of those verses where we might, you know, put it on a sign or something, you know, like, this is the one verse and you put it on your house or—
Hobby Lobby.
Put it on a mug or whatever, you know.
Shout out.
But I was looking at, maybe the entire chapter is actually talking about practical, how do you practically worship God with your body and it, like in this physical body that you have, like, you can do things, you can move things, you can talk, you can, you can give people things, generously.
Right.
And so, if the entire chapter might be ways to actually be of service to the body of Christ or, you know, and or to the people, to the world to bring them to him as an example. So, if you go on to verse 2,
"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
Now on to verse 3,
"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal;" and, "the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness."
And then it goes on. But, like, could all those things, verse 13,
"Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality."
Could these be things, presenting your body "as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Could these be the activities that you could actually call worship? Perhaps.
Yeah.
Right?
Yes. I don't think that's a stretch.
Right. Yeah. No, me neither.
I think that's it.
And I wonder if sometimes, we know, we might think that, like, well, to worship, it's always like, difficult. But what if you were just to use the things that God gave you, and your natural gifts that are from him, and to use them to direct your attention towards him, and then, you know, by, I suppose, default, it would be the attention of others to him also. Yeah. It might not be necessarily like the most difficult thing every time, like sacrifice. It's when I hear sacrifice, I just, I think of pain. Like, I always think of, like, pain. And maybe like, what you're saying, Chris, is like, maybe it's not necessarily always a sacrifice of, like, it's going to be, it's going to hurt. It's going to be painful to do it. It's like, well, no, I mean, we've got gifts and talents and what if we were just to use those things for his glory and actually it feels pretty good.
Yeah.
And it's not painful at all.
Painful can be to bless and not curse them.
Yeah. That can actually be the painful thing to do.
True, very true.
Nope, nope.
That feels painful.
I want to. I want to. I want to curse them.
Yeah.
But that's in there in Romans 12 too.
Right, right. Yeah. Different kind of pain.
Yeah.
Different kind of pain.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, I think it does have to do with a, having a God consciousness, like, whatever you're going through, whether it's an adversity—"Where are you, God? Who are you, God, in midst of this?"—and remembering who we are and what we've been called to, you know, and that, to me, is what a God consciousness means. And practically speaking, it could be the man or woman who is struggling in their marriage. Maybe they're just going through a time of being weary because so much attention has been on the kids or been on the struggles of life, and they find themselves disconnected from their spouse, and then they get the DM or hit up on social media from the high school girlfriend or boyfriend, and being conscious, you know, of God being conscious of what he's called us to in those moments. And even though it might feel good to connect and reach out, and even though we're really good at, you know, cognitive dissonance and coming up with good enough excuses and arguments where why it would be okay to just, you know, engage in something so innocent, and then next thing you know, we find ourselves in over our head.
Sure.
Right? It's just being a, you know, a conscious awareness of, you know, of the life that God's called us to in moments like that that don't announce themselves.
Well, and I think it's, yeah—and maybe I'm just kind of reiterating a little bit what's already been said—but like, so our bodies are the temple, like you, you know, like you said, and let me know if you have other opinions about this, but it seems like the temple, the, a couple of primary purposes of the temple was for praise and sacrifice. Right? And so, I guess, you know, how I might show worship every day, if I'm kind of thinking about it, would be, am I thanking God regularly for the things that he's doing in my life? Am I showing gratitude for not just the, you know, the good stuff, like I've, you know, "Hey, I found five bucks on the ground," but also for the tough stuff where it's like, "Thank you, God, that even though I don't like what's happening right now, I'm grateful that you're in control and that you're going to make something beautiful from this difficult moment or I'll learn something from it." So, I think gratitude kind of fits the praise portion for me. And then sacrifice is kind of like what you were just talking about, Kathy, is those moments will come in our lives where we have a choice to make, and there's always something vying for that top space. And so, it's being mindful. And I think that's, I think that's part of it, too, is being mindful about our walk with Christ. Because if we're really mindful about it, those moments, whether it's temptations, whether it's, you know, you want to curse somebody instead of bless them, if we're mindful about it and we're aware of what we're experiencing, we can at least kind of take a little bit of a step back and say, "Okay, wait a minute. What's going on here? Like, I'm, I want to do this, and I need to recognize that it's not the right thing to do. So, then I'll put that aside, and then I'll, you know, put my focus back on Christ." That would be, I would think, a sacrifice to the flesh.
Am I surrendering to the flesh or to the, yeah?
Right, yeah.
Yeah. It's no longer that we, like, are compartmentalizing our life. Like, we don't go to a physical place to worship the Lord, but, like, our entire—it's not a cliche because it's the Bible—but it's our entire lives are an act of worship now. So, the way that you described it as this, like, God consciousness, I think is a really great way to, like, summarize that. That there's always this consciousness that God is with us and watching, and there's always an opportunity then to worship and be worshipful. Like, it doesn't have to be that it is, that anything is separate. Anything that I can't. I guess what I'm saying is, like, the opportunity is really in anything. It's not only in church, like, Sunday morning, but it is in me showing up and being fully present, fully engaged with my students or keeping my apartment clean, even though no one else is there to see it clean, or honoring my own body because God gave me it. And so.
Right.
Like, that's kind of what I'm hearing, but.
It's definitely an action, that's for sure. I mean, I guess, I guess fasting would be a good way to enter into that spiritual act of worship. Offering your bodies, sacrificing, you know, what we, what we do worship on. I mean, how many of us are worshiping our phones or the time that we spend. I mean, whatever time we're spending the most at is, ultimately, you could say that's what you worship. You know? And the, yeah, the Jews, they worshiped in the temple. Right? That's where they went. And they also had dietary laws and things that they did that they were worshiping. And. But, like, the distinction of the temple, I think, is interesting, going back to what Jesus was talking about in worship with the woman at the well. Excuse me. He was taking, he was taking the place out of it. He was, you know, he was taking that completely out of the equation. So.
The geography?
Yeah, of course, you know.
Right.
He was, you know, just removing it from the temple. But I thought it was interesting also, you know, as Paul was talking about, that the temple is where the Jews were to worship. This is 1 Corinthians 6:19. The temple is where the Jews were to worship. But later, you know, Paul explains to the Corinthians, your body is a temple to the house of the Holy Spirit, which I think is interesting because there is the spirit, right? To worship in spirit and in truth is impossible without the Spirit. And then that, you know, of course, after Jesus pays the ultimate sacrifice, now we are able to receive the Holy Spirit. And where we can have, the temple goes where we go.
Yeah.
Right? So, we can worship wherever we go because we have the Spirit in us, which I thought was really interesting.
Yeah. In a church pew or at Burger King.
Of course.
Yeah. Yeah. Chick-Fil-A. Come on.
Oh, sorry. Chick-Fil-A. I repent.
I repent.
C'mon, this is a Bible podcast.
I'm sorry.
It's Jesus' chicken.
No, and that was really, that was really good because it almost, yeah, in my mind, it kind of sounds like, like you said, Jesus took the geography out of the equation, and it's almost like a precursor to the ripping of the curtain in the temple, which like this is what's coming, which is you're not going to have to go to a place to worship.
Right.
And there's not going to be a separation between you and God anymore.
That's right.
So that's, that's really cool. A good point. Yeah. The geography was taken out of it, and it was about to be really evident in just, you know, a short while when the curtain tears and the Holy of Holies is no longer just for the high priest. Yeah.
And I think about the micro level now. So, you know, she was trying to talk about the macro level, but the micro level is, you know, anything that we turn to that we're trusting in, it's called idolatry. And it's so easy, and it's a word that we kind of delegate to people who don't know Christ. But it's actually a sin that I think we all can. And I think about, you know, anything that we, you know, we have to recognize that Jesus is the source, and we can have resources here, but anything can be an idol, like even in my clinical work, even marriage, you know, I think for the American church can become an idol where people are compromising even their faith or their value system in service of something other than the Lord. It could be anything good. It could be, you know, worshiping a computer game, worshiping the images on the screen, you know, anything. And you know, it actually reminds me of a passage in Isaiah 50. Would it be okay if I read it?
I suppose.
So, this is Isaiah 50:10. It says,
"Who among you fears the Lord
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let the one who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the Lord
and rely on their God.
But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment."
And this passage stands out to me because, you know, the torches are the things that we turn to, to get us out of these dark places. You know? And it could be, you know, just anything from a, you know, a five-point action plan to a particular program. And the fires are the things that we turn to for warmth and comfort. And these could be, of course, you know, drugs and alcohol. It could be another person. Instead of relying on the Lord for what it is that we're needing, and especially in a season of adversity, what are we going to turn to?
Interesting.
Yeah.
I like that.
Yeah, that was really good. Because I think that when we talk about like idolatry, there's always this, well, at least in my mind, historically, a connotation of like, well, you're just a, you're just a person, a bad person, like worshiping stuff that you're not supposed to worship. But it's like in a moment of distress or pain, it's kind of like, it's, as best as we can protecting the vital organs, like trying to survive. It's like, well, if this feels good, I can get through another day. And that could slip obviously its way up to the most important thing in our lives, because it works. That's the thing, is like, it relieves pain temporarily. But of course, Jesus is saying, like, I'm the one that can relieve pain permanently. And if you go down this path, keep on going down this path of temporary, you know, easing of the pain, it's taking your eyes farther and farther away from me because it becomes the most important thing because it kind of works. It might, like I said before, it might even be good, but it's not great.
Yeah. It could even be ministry, you know? You know, and what is it, is it in Ezekiel where the passage, and I'm butchering it probably in my mind, but it says that he walked by Israel, he's talking to Israel, and I saw you as an infant, naked, and so I clothed you. And as you grew in beauty, I've clothed you with fine linens, and I put jewelry and braided your hair and withheld nothing of my blessings from you. But you began to worship in my gifts and my blessings instead of me. And so, you forsook me. You began to trust in those things. And so, even some of the blessings that God gives us, is if we start to trust in those things. And for me practically, it's like even having a private practice. Who am I going to trust? The Lord for my financial stability? You know, am I going to trust myself or am I going to trust my practice? Or some of you out there listening, am I going to trust my husband? Am I going to trust my wife? Or am I going to trust the Lord? And that can get, you know, really practical in our day to day walk.
Yeah. And the encouragement is for believers too. And I always thought in 1 John, chapter 5:21, the last verse, it's just,
"Little children, keep yourselves from idols."
And that's the end of the letter.
Yeah.
That's the sign off.
Just a little FYI.
Keep yourselves from idols.
Yeah.
It seems like it's such a cliffhanger, but it must be because it's so, I don't know, applicable to even those who believe to still keep yourselves from idols, you know?
Yeah.
And I think that like just that verse that we all kind of know is,
“'Be still, and know that I am God.'"
I think there's a very practical reason for that. It's just to be still, like you, I've got you. Whether it's finances, whether it's uncertainties, it's like I'm bigger than all of that. So, just calm your mind down and know that I am God, meaning I'm bigger than all of whatever worry it is that's weaseled its way into your mind.
Yeah. That was actually something I wrote about in my notes before we came was exactly what you're talking about. I didn't have that, that was a perfect Scripture to apply to it. But one thing that just landed for me was oftentimes what we do idolize are those good things that God has brought into our lives. And I think we've probably touched on this before in another podcast, but. And I was thinking about even in my own life, like, I could probably say my own, like, idolatry is my own understanding sometimes. Like, I just need to know and understand what's going on all the time, because I think it's going to keep me safe. Like, I have this, like, sometimes this anxious nature. And it's just because I want to know and understand. And oftentimes God's response to me is,
“'Be still, and know that I am God.'"
Or, you know, trust God with all your heart and do not lean on, on your own understanding. And I'm like, "Well, no. You're God. You can just tell me what's going on." But I think that the idolatry doesn't stop when we become Christians or when we know God. But there, we do know how, now know, like, the source of what we're looking for. Like, if I need to know something, God will tell me. Like, if I need to understand something, God will give me that understanding. But oftentimes it's really the trust that I need, not the, you know, not the understanding. And it's like you're saying we do idolize certain things because it is meeting a need, even if it's just temporarily. And so, we keep going back to that thing when God wants to be the source.
Right.
And. I just glitched out.
All right, all right.
I mean, the quick. I don't know if you guys did this or not, but if you search on your phone, "What's the opposite of worship?" it says idolatry.
Interesting.
Oh, it does? Interesting. Yeah.
Interesting.
That's funny, because I wrote.
Which is crazy, the complete opposite.
That is interesting.
"What would be an anecdote to idolatry? Worshiping in spirit and truth."
Come on.
Boom. I didn't even Google that.
Wow.
Well, that's so interesting that the opposite of worship, because idolatry, I would have, it's like, I always thought it was a form of worship, but it was the opposite of worship.
Yeah.
According to the dictionary.
Right. Yeah.
I just.
That's good.
I think about this often. But, like, idolatry, I think that some people, sometimes—we might go down a rabbit trail so you might want to cut this out—but, like, I, being very linear thinking, I think that sometimes we look at idolatry as, like, loving something too much. But to me, that doesn't totally track because I don't think that we love what we idolize. I think we're getting something from it that we need and to love is to like act in sacrifice. It's to make a sacrifice, you know, like, it's an action, it's a choice, and it's the giving out of ourselves. And I, I do think that there's a, like a dichotomy there between like idolatry is feeding something that we need and love would be pushing something out. Or not pushing something out, but you know, it, it's a gift, it's a giving sort of thing. And I think about that often. I don't know if that makes any sense to you guys or if I'm totally going off on like some theological diatribe that is totally heretical. But it just, because to me, I don't know that idolatry is loving something too much. It's, there are different purposes, I guess, love and idolatry.
It's interesting.
Yeah.
Even from a practical standpoint, as I hear you talk—Jon, you, I know you deal with this in your office too, in the clinical office—is how often when people are going through something really hard, like whether it's a divorce or estrangement from one of their kids, and they spend so much time trying to figure out why it's happening. Right? And I have a saying, I say all the time in the office, I, you know, I spend zero amount of time trying to figure out somebody else's crazy. You know? Instead, I just, I get curious and I ask questions. Now you might be asking questions of someone that has absolutely no self-reflection. So, they have no, they don't even have a clue about their crazy. Right?
Yeah.
And so, yeah.
Is she's talking about me right in front of me?
No, I'm not. No.
No, but it's crazy because like our feelings and our feelings lie to us.
Yeah.
Right.
The people that you're talking about, they can't get past these feelings. They're just getting beat up because that's what they're believing. So, another part of the spirit and truth. Right? Your feelings are lying to you. How are you able to worship fully if you're just, if you're not digging in deep and going for the truth like you are, how can you get to that space if you're just focused on your feelings that are lying to you?
Right.
Yeah.
That's good.
That is really good.
Because feelings aren't facts. And what Christ is calling us to do is to worship in truth. And in spirit. But truth are facts, right? Yeah. And yeah, emotions can be very misleading.
And I think Paul talks about that. I can think of two areas in Scripture where Paul is talking, I think this is in Hebrews where he says that God has left nothing under the subject of Christ. He's put everything under his feet. Although we look around and we don't yet see everything subject to the, you know, Son. Yet we look up and we see, you know, God on the throne. We see Jesus sitting at the right hand, and our light and momentary afflictions are nothing compared to the surpassing glory of what God has planned for us. And so, I believe Paul is even saying, you know, when we're trying to figure out things down here, it just doesn't make sense. And sometimes the only thing we can do is look up, because our emotions, even our thoughts, I mean, the crazy thoughts that we generate. And it's comforting to know just because I think something doesn't mean it's true. Thank you. Right? And when things don't seem to make sense, we double down and want to, we want to try and figure it out where Paul is just saying, just look up, you know, because you're not going to figure it out. And it doesn't, even though it doesn't seem like it makes sense, you have to trust that I've got everything now, you know, everything's subject to Him. Yeah.
One of the things I thought was interesting because it had to do with kind of the ignorance part of our discussion and.
Whose discussion was ignorant?
Some of your guys' ignorant talk kind of jarred something in me.
Just wanted to make, be clear on what's being said.
That's right. That's right. So, when Jesus, I thought it was interesting when Jesus was talking with the woman about, you know, what true worship is, I like how this little bit that just kind of stood out. So, in the Scripture, it says the woman is first talking, and she says,
"'Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.' Jesus said to her, 'Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.'"
And I thought it was cool that he added "the Father" because it was like he was kind of clarifying, like, it's not just worship, it's worshiping something specific, and it's worshiping someone specific and the one true God. But it wasn't like overpowering or anything like that. He just kind of just slid it in there. It's like you'll worship the Father, just so you know who you're worshiping. And there is a singular. There is one God that you'll worship. And that kind of speaks to probably how she was used to worshiping multiple gods, probably. But Jesus was like, just so you know, it'll be the Father. Now that's, that was kind of cool.
It is. It is. Yeah, Jesus says in that John 4 and 23, "'for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.'" And I thought it's interesting that he says the Father is not just seeking worship in general. Like some, like it doesn't matter what creation it is. Like is it like a rock or a antelope or you know, the waterfall worship. He's looking for people.
Right.
Like relational.
Right.
And by using the word Father, that's a relational term too.
Right. Yeah.
And so, it almost kind of clarifies it's not just like an unknown God.
Right.
It's, it's one who wants people to worship him.
Right.
So yeah.
I'd mic drop, but it's on a stand.
So, what I thought was interesting to that point. Right.
We're posturing now.
I want a t-shirt that says that.
I would mic drop. But it's on a stand.
Okay.
Just push it over the table.
So, I thought, yeah. So, to one of the questions like, yeah, why have people worship? And what's the point of that? While this isn't an exhaustive answer to that question, I put into, you know, the Google search and AI gave me a response is "why do people worship?" And the response is spiritual strength, renewed faith, sense of purpose. There can be emotional and mental well-being, reduced stress and anxiety, increased peace, overcoming depression, improved sleep, other benefits, fulfilling God's purpose, positive impact on others and sense of community. So, there's, it's not just, because I've heard people say, even in my practice, "God just is a narcissist that wants all the attention and that's why he created beings, is so that he could just fulfill that narcissism." And there are very practical, there's a benefit to us as humans worshiping God. It's not just a one-way thing. We get something from it too. And what then it kind of took me to is I think that perhaps you've heard this analogy before.
"When God wanted to create fish, he spoke to the sea. When God created trees, he spoke to the earth. But when God created man, he turned to himself. Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image and in our likeness.' If you take a fish out of water, it will die. And when you remove a tree from soil, it will also die. Likewise, when man is disconnected from God he dies. God is our natural environment. We were created to live in his presence. We have to be connected to him because it is only in him that life exists."
And so, worship, it connects us with God. It's actually, it helps us to survive, to live, because that's our natural habitat is to be connected to God. And worship is a connecting, it's like the connecting piece to us, to God. And so, yeah, it's our, it's for our benefit too. It's not just because he gets something from it, but he does.
Right.
We get something from it too. We get life.
Come on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I guess as I thought of your list, the thing that stood out, I felt a little sad and actually convicted because all of the things on that list would be for me.
Right.
But I think when it says God desires people of worship, it's a relationship. And when I think of worship, I think of adoration and love. And he wants to be loved by us. And that's what blows my mind. He actually wants relationship with us. And by the way, if we're talking about narcissism, narcissism is an exaggeration of one's achievements, accomplishments and personhood. How can somebody who is the creator and the source be a narcissist?
Right.
Can't exaggerate.
What can he say that would exaggerate?
Right. Yeah, yeah.
You know, "I AM THAT I AM."
Yeah.
But yeah, that's what blows my mind is he, you know, I think the essence of worship really is love, like Robyn was saying, and he wants, he wants to be loved by me. He wants to be the source of my adoration, which gets me back to he wants to just share my life moment by moment with me like a lover. You know, calling, think about the person you'd want to call if something cool happened. God wants that to be him. Think about the person you'd call if the bottom fell out on your life. No, God wants to be that person.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yet from the beginning, it's always been lopsided. He's always given us more. Even like my mind goes to the covenant between him and Abraham. And they were going to make a covenant together and he put Abraham to sleep, and he, and God alone walked through the parted animals as the ritual because he knew that man couldn't hold up his side of the bargain. So, from the beginning, God's carrying the weight of this relationship.
Right.
And even. Yeah. Even to like the list of the benefits from worship. It's like, yeah, it is because he wants that love relationship with us, but we still get more out of it.
Yeah.
I mean, it's like we get so much out of worship in our relationship with him.
That's right.
Well, and like, to your point here, people like, "He's just a narcissist." Like. And I'm like, well, he deserves all of this for one thing. But what, he's not any other person. He's not like any other person in that he is the source of everything that is good and everything that is pure and everything that we consider, like, joyful or like all created good things come from him. And so, what I mean by that is, like, without him, we wouldn't be experiencing any of that. Like, we wouldn't experience any of that joy. We wouldn't experience laughter. We wouldn't experience the sun or all the things that we call good. And so, it's not just like this idea that he's just some other person that just wants all of the accolade. It's like you're saying he's really, it's that connection to everything that is good in our lives. This is for us. Even him desiring worship is to our benefit, not even necessarily his. I mean, I don't doubt that, like, he loves it, but, like.
He doesn't need it.
He doesn't, exactly. Like, he's still who he is, regardless of what I do. So.
Well, and he took the first steps toward us. That's the scandal of the gospel. You know, in Judaism, if you wanted to study under a rabbi, you would go to the rabbi and you would ask, and the rabbi would either say "yes" or "no." And you might have to ask several times. No, Jesus, the rabbi, he pursued his disciples, he sought them out and he said, "'Come, follow me.'" And then I think in Revelation, you know, the crazy thing is we think about us knocking on God's door, saying, "Can I come in?" But no, in Revelation it says, behold, I stand at the door and I knock and anyone who opens the door, I will come in.
Yeah.
So, he's the pursuer. He's not waiting for, yeah.
Yeah. And all other gods, you have to pursue the god, you have to be right in that god's eyes. Otherwise. Yeah.
And our God for the joy set before him, that's redemption of relationship with me, with you. He endured the cross and despised that shame. You know, it was, you know, we can't out love the lover.
Excellent. Closing thoughts around the table as we wrap up this topic of worship.
I have one interesting closing thought. So, you know, as we're going through this whole woman at the well thing, we've all been blessed with our research and, right? One of the cool things that I found out is that when Jesus said, when Jesus was talking to her about worshiping in spirit and in truth, and then she says, well, you Jews worship in the temple, and we worship on the mountain. And then Jesus goes, you know, talks about in spirit and in truth. Well, the Jews weren't worshiping in spirit. They were worshiping in a physical place, right? And the Samaritans weren't worshiping in truth. Right? And like, so he's like, he differentiates also, him, his own people, the Jews and the Samaritans. Right? And then goes beyond that. Like, you know what Jesus always, he's shaking it up. And ever since he gets there, he's, you know, like, just shaking everything up. He's going places and he's just messing with people, like their brains and how they understand all this stuff. And then he just lays it out like, you know, the Jews doing, you know, their thing. Well, there's a new form of worship coming and that he's setting forth, right? Because he's fulfilling what's about to happen. But I just thought it was, it was interesting that he also kind of burned the Jews a little bit and he also burned the Samaritans and, right? And then put it together.
Equal opportunity. Yeah.
I know. I thought that was a key, that was pretty cool.
That is good.
Everybody needs to relearn and set aside traditions, you know, that may have crept in and are hindering what God is actually after and has been after the entire time. So.
I think we still do it, too. We. Let's just say we called the worship Sunday morning for 30 minutes. Right? Well, I did my worship. Right? That's, I think by and large us Christians tend to think that's what it is because we call it worship time and we, you know, set aside that, "Oh, I worship," you know, "I did the 30 minutes on Sunday." And I'm not saying that that's not worship. I feel like a lot of it's praise. You know? David writes psalms, right? And there's laments and praises and things like that. Worship is. Yeah. Worship is in spirit and in truth, like we're, we've been discussing, obviously. But yeah, I think we fall into that legalism, like, that traditionalism that, you know, that's the place where we go to worship. He's, it's not what he's, what he's after, what he's saying.
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah.
Not that it's a bad thing.
Right. Yeah. But it can't. But it's not the only thing.
Right.
Right. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. I think just closing thought for me is Jesus being called the great Teacher. I just love how this is an example of how great of a teacher that he is, where he is teaching, what true worship is in the midst of somebody struggling with mass amounts of shame.
Come on.
And he's able to explain it in a way to where the woman leaves completely ecstatic to the point where she becomes like the first missionary. And that is a trip. And so, you know, if there's something that we need a better understanding on, that's the type of God that we serve is one that is going to be so, he has the ability to be so gentle that he can hold us in the midst of the most painful, you know, perhaps moments and moments in our lives when, you know, there's something been exposed that we wish that perhaps, you know, other people wouldn't have known. And he's still able to teach us something monumental in the midst of very complicated situations.
We worship a God adoringly who we have relationship with, who is our lover, who is our friend, who is our savior. And we worship him in truth. His name is Jesus. He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him.
All right. Robyn?
I don't know. My closing thought.
Do you yield your time?
Yeah, I'll yield it for now.
You don't have to. I was just giving you an out, but I didn't think you'd take it.
I know the one time I did before you guys did not like that. No, I've just been kind of mulling still over what Jami said about, like, if we, like, I don't want to butcher what you said, but paraphrasing the, like, how well are we truly worshiping the Lord if we're not really grounded in his word, it sounds like, in spirit and in truth? Because we, in order to worship him well, we are worshiping in spirit and in truth so we need to be grounded in the truth so that we're not led by our emotions, I guess. And so, the way that you explained that, like, I just really appreciated that. So, I'm kind of just mulling over that in my mind right now and how I can apply that in my life to become an even better lover of the Lord. But.
Yeah, great. Well, I got in my notes here, Exodus, chapter 7, verses 14-18 out of the NIV. And as I read this, there's a few words that pop up that are also found in the account with Jesus at the, with the woman at the well. And the words are "worship" and "water." There's even "snake" like we've talked about.
Lifted. Or raised.
So anyway, just kind of listen to those as I read out this passage.
"Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Pharaoh’s heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go. Go to Pharaoh in the morning as he goes out to the river. Confront him on the bank of the Nile, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake. Then say to him, "The Lord, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the wilderness. But until now you have not listened. This is what the Lord says: By this you will know that I am the Lord: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water."’”
And of course, at Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well, they're talking about living water and they also talk about worship. And in this account here, Moses is to speak to Pharaoh, let the people worship. And the alternative to that is not having access to water, which the Nile was like their lifeblood of the country. Right? So to speak. So anyway, just seeing how intent God was on having the people come out of Egypt for the purpose of worship. And ultimately living water is what Jesus is offering. To not allow the people to worship, there's this hindrance to having life giving water. Right? So anyway, there's some interesting parallels there, I think, how God is all along, even years earlier, had worship in mind. And the theme of water also comes into that discussion as well. So. All right, well, great discussion everybody. Thanks for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Please like and subscribe if you're so inclined. Thank you to our guests for joining us for this episode. We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care everybody.
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