S2 E16 | "Years" | Bible Study John 5:2-9

I have no joke prepared. No joke prepared. No. That's not obligatory. Where's your joke? Good to know. I set aside obliteratory matters long ago. Well, given my understanding of your profession, I'm sure you know the light bulb joke, right? What's the light bulb joke? Go ahead. I bet you know. How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one. But the light bulb has to want to be changed. That's great. There you go. That applies to this Scripture. That's right. It has to, really. Okay, here's one. Knock, knock. Who there? Water. Water who? Water you waiting for? Oh, gosh. Yeah. To laugh. Still waiting. Waiting for the punchline. Well, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times. Along with psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll, my brother, my name is Chris, your host once again. We are joined with special education teacher Robyn Nelson, and for the first time in the studio, Richelle Walker and Dan Johnson. Welcome. Hey, guys. Welcome. Richelle, you are founder of Joy Centers in Snohomish. All right, tell us a little bit more about yourself and about that endeavor. Yeah, so we're about a stone's throw away from here, and we're a whole team who have come together collaboratively to bring whole person healing with alternative medicine and protocols. And we have a variety of different services, and emotional healing is my primary wheelhouse. All right. Very cool. Yeah. Excellent. Great. And Dan Johnson, life coach, welcome. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about yourself. So, we might get into more of this as we get into the discussion, but I went through about 27 years of some really difficult health conditions. Thankfully, I was able to, you know, somewhat build a career, maintain employment through a lot of that. And so, about half of that was in corporate training and development. And so, between my personal experience of going through a lot of challenges physically and financially, and then using my corporate training experience, combining that and pursuing life coaching, in addition to some other things I do. Excellent. That's great. All right, perfect. Well, today, our verse, our passage of Scripture we're looking at today is John chapter 5 verses 2-9. And we're going to focus in on the word "years." And our topics are generally persevering through chronic illness, the mindset that one might need to have when experiencing that, and of course, looking to Jesus as the great physician as well. So, just some topics we hope to kind of touch on here, as we dig in a little bit deeper. But I'll read that opening passage here. Out of the ESV. "Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades. In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, 'Do you want to be healed?' The sick man answered him, 'Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.' Jesus said to him, 'Get up, take up your bed, and walk.' And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked. Now that day was the Sabbath." And then there's a verse in the King James Version, it doesn't appear in the ESV, but there's a verse four in that chapter, it says, "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had." So that's a little bit more of the background of what this man is doing. They're waiting by the pool. It provides a little more context there, so. So, anyway, that's our passage of Scripture here. Opening thoughts around the table as we discuss "years" and kind of the situation that man was in, so, Dr. Jon? Well, I guess the first thing that kind of jumped at me first and foremost was just the 38 years. I mean, he was there, like, for so long. Like, he was there in both B.C. and A.D. That's how long he was there for. Sounds like a joke. Well, I mean, but that's like, that's what it was, 38 years. And like, the fact that he was there for so long and then Jesus obviously knowing all, I just think that it's fascinating that he asked the question, "'Do you want to be healed?'" That's the other thing that kind of stood out to me first. And maybe it's because as a therapist, somebody does need to want the change before change can happen. But then I read something kind of interesting from this commentary, Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges. It said, "Excepting the healing of the royal official’s son all Christ’s miracles in the Fourth Gospel are spontaneous. On no other occasion does Christ ask a question without being addressed first: why does He now ask a question of which the answer was so obvious? Probably in order to rouse the sick man out of his lethargy and despondency. It was the first step towards the man’s having sufficient faith: he must be inspired with some expectation of being cured." And I think that's an interesting take on it, where it's rousing somebody's faith and belief that there can be healing. And because—I mean, there's so much to this passage—there's like no one would bring him to the pool; there's, so he was, it seems like he was alone, it seemed like there was some isolation; I would imagine hopelessness would have started to play a role. And I think it's amazing how like the question, "'Do you want to be healed?'" like, maybe that started to spark something in him to where it's like, this is still a possibility. So, I just love that Jesus always knows what to say and he's never going to misspeak. Even when it sounds like that maybe it's like, well, why did, why would he say that? Like, I thought he, like, knows all. But it's like, well, it's for a greater purpose. So, there's a couple thoughts there. First of all, I, based on my own personal experience, having battled two major chronic health conditions and then some other kind of smaller ones that were kind of peripheral, I would think, and then also just over the years talking to people that deal with chronic type conditions, I think it would absolutely go without saying that he had to have had some pretty significant discouragement. And especially if he, now, I don't necessarily know if he could have known of others in the community that got health, if not outright healing outside of that pool, but it seemed like that was kind of the main way that he was hoping or desiring to get healing. And so, when he repeatedly couldn't even access at least what he believed would bring him healing, yeah, I mean, I would think there had to have been major discouragement, you know. Yeah, no kidding. Well, I had some interesting things kind of open up to me that it really stood out to me that there was multitudes in different versions that said there was multitudes at these five different porticos around this pool. And so, I just even before coming here, just was meditating on "what would that look like?" This is multitudes of people who are sick. And we know some of those kinds of hangouts where sometimes maybe we feel more comfortable being with other people who share our weaknesses. You know? And so, maybe a lot of those people really were just hanging out or maybe it had even become like a dumping ground. And they weren't necessarily there with faith. They were just hanging out. But what stood out to me was Jesus comes to these multitudes, and he sees one and he talks to one. And what I noticed about the Scriptures with that one man, he was looking for a man. It says he has no man. He was looking for a man. So, when Jesus showed up, Jesus was what he was actually looking for almost more than he was looking for the pool. The man was going to get him to the pool. The man was going to bring his healing. So, I saw that Jesus was asking him, out of all these people that are hanging out that maybe just are here because this is the dumping ground or because this is where they just hang out with everybody else who's sick, do you want to be made well? And I feel like he was able to respond with faith because to me, it looked like he almost had more faith for a man to show up than for the getting to the pool. Interesting. Yeah. Actually, kind of on the same lines of what you were, I think you just set that up really well, because I've read the Scripture a thousand times in my life. This is actually a really transformative Scripture for me when it came with, like, my own journey walking through depression. But the way I read it this time was that he, I mean, Jesus is like, do you want to be well? And his response is, well, there's no one to get me into the pool. And once the waters are stirred up, it's already too full for me to get in there. And I just, I think it's, like, really interesting and really kind of heartbreaking that, like, the very thing he needs in order to get in the pool is what he doesn't have. Like, he needs the ability to walk, in a way, to get in there. He needs to be able to move somehow. So, he's, like, already so, like, like, has lacking so much ability that he can't do this on his own, and he needs assistance to get in there. And so, like, I love the way that you just set that up as, like, he's really looking for someone. And it turns out that it is—I mean, we know we have the benefit of, like, looking back and seeing, like, Jesus came and healed him, but he wouldn't have that luxury of knowing who this guy is. They even, later says that in the Scripture, like, it's just some guy that healed him. But I, I just, that really struck me at this time, like, he was so completely dependent on other people. I started thinking about, like, 38 years and he can't even, like, crawl into a pool. How is he, like, eating? Like, how is he going to the bathroom? Like, like there's got to be so much dependency on him. It almost, like, it had me thinking about other people in kind of desperate situations and what that would look like in our day. And I thought of like, I mean, maybe somebody who has so much anxiety and they know they need to get to like a therapist like you, but the anxiety is so crippling, they can't even do the next step, like to get to that place. And so, I just think it's such a, a relatable experience to a degree of like that, like there's always for each of us, I think, something that makes us dependent on the Lord, whether or not we can fully recognize it or admit to it. Like we would be in that space completely destitute without God's intervention. So. Yeah, good. Yeah, I like how The Chosen kind of portrayed this aspect of the, of the story here in the way that they showed it is that the man was so focused on a particular solution that Jesus redirected his attention to him and said, focus on me, you know, and that's just kind of how they interpreted this, this here is that sort of a redirection of attention, of source of the healing, and in a sense kind of prompting that faith within him to help take him to the next step there. And no doubt after 38 years, that's not only the physical challenges, but at some point, those mental challenges surely must start to seep in. And I was thinking like, Jesus visited the temple as a boy, we know, in Luke, at 12 years old, well, that man would have been there when Jesus appeared at the temple as a 12 year old, right? That would have been 18 years earlier. The guy had already been there 20 years by the time Jesus showed up as a boy at the temple. So, just some, just the amount of, I guess Jesus knew he had been there a long time. Right. Did he know supernaturally? Or did he know because he remembered him passing into Jerusalem all those, those times. Very interesting. And then in the same way, like perhaps he was the sickest of them all, you know, like Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well. Like she's, if he can reach her, he can reach the whole town, right? If he can reach this man, maybe the worst of the worst, he can heal everybody, right? Yeah. But on this topic of just of mindset, what are some, some challenges that help get someone through those 38 years? Like, it's a challenge in and of itself, I would think. And at what point does kind of the, I guess you could call it the psychology of perseverance come into play in the midst of these kind of situations? And how does hope stay alive? I guess is a way to ask that. So, any thoughts on that? So, if the idea is, you know, like, how to maintain hope or, Chris, what was the word you used? Perseverance. Perseverance. Oh, and then mindset. Right? So, part of my thinking is whenever I'm talking to people, if I'm talking to someone who actually is in a struggle, I take a little bit different approach than if I'm trying to help people that might want to be more helpful than they have been able to be in the past, for example. So, let's say whosever's listening to this, and they don't necessarily have that kind of experience, but they'd like to be more helpful for a loved one or a family member or something like that, is when a person is in a situation like that, they're probably not going to have the greatest mindset every day, right? I mean, think of ourselves. Even if we got the flu for a week, like that week probably wasn't our best mindset week, right? Well, what if he had the flu for 38 years? Right? Is it really reasonable to approach this guy or somebody else tomorrow or next week, you know, in our actual lives, we cross paths with somebody who's really struggling, and they've kind of got a not the best mindset, right? Not the best attitude. You know, it's easy to kind of feel like, oh, you know, but to just kind of be patient and think, "Okay, well, where I want to help them next is with their mindset," not just telling them, "Hey, you need to have a better attitude," you know? But how can we help them have a better attitude? And I think because people have a basic need to be understood, or at least a desire—like, we all want to be understood, at least to some degree—and I think similar or kind of related is we want to be understood and we want to have, sense some level of respect from people. And so, if a person is really struggling, what I try to do—and not just because I think it would be encouraging, because I, but because I think it's true—if someone's really struggling and they're getting up every day and they're still going to work and they're still functioning, it's like, that is a respectable accomplishment. You know? And then, like an analogy also I've used is, for someone to help people, not that they're necessarily going to be able to relate—because, for example, like, I'm not a woman, I've never been a woman, I never will, I'll never have a child, no matter how much a woman who's had multiple kids tells me, I'll never be able to relate to that—but if she explains some of it, it'll help me maybe have a little more patience with somebody going through something like that. So, for example, let's use the analogy that I mentioned, like, you know, having the flu. We've all probably had the flu, or something similar to it where we felt lousy for a week, right? Well, what if somebody breaks their leg, right? It's, even if their finances are great, their family, if everything in that life is great, but they break their leg, it's gonna cause some challenges, right? They can't take a quick shower, right? They gotta wrap that leg. They gotta go all through this hassle, you know. If they had a job where they were on their feet a lot, they might lose their job or they might not be able to continue their job, right? And that's when everything else in their life is really pretty ideal, right? But let's say that person recovers—what, seven, eight, nine months later, probably, if you break your leg? I'm not sure. Something like that. And then let's say some time goes by and they break their leg again. Now, the first time, it was frustrating and it had consequences. What if it happens again? They go through that all over again. They're kind of asking the doctors, like, "Why do you think this happened again?" Let's say that they don't know why. So, that adds another element of frustration because there's uncertainty and there's anxiety that can be associated with that because we don't know the answer. So, the person recovers again, and then they do it a third time, and then a fourth time, and then a tenth time, like. So, I use that analogy to try to help someone who's not been in a chronic health condition or something like that to go, okay, even though that analogy doesn't help that person actually relate, I think it can help a person go, "Oh, I can see how that would be really challenging to have a condition that just keeps happening over and over and over," right? And breaking your leg every year might not even be as bad as if you had some really difficult condition where you had it every day and it just never went away. So, those are some of the things I've tried to share with others. That's good. Really good. Example reminds me of Sam Jackson's character in Unbreakable. That's right. Mr. Glass. Mr. Glass kept breaking his bones. It's fiction, but that's the image that kind of came to mind there, so. I realized I didn't get to my punchline. The real point of what I was saying is going back to mindset and how people maintain hope is, I think if a person senses that I actually respect what they're going through, and there's ways I can communicate that clearly and effectively, but again, in my time, over the years, just talking to people that have been through situations, and it just seems like, at least at my church, for example, that I was at for many, many years, people would just hear like, "Oh, Dan's the guy to talk to if you're really going through a really hard time physically, go and talk to him," you know? "He knows all about it. He's probably got doctors to hook you up with," or whatever, you know? But over the years, talking to people—and some of this, my own experiences—if I'm perceived like they just think I'm a wuss and a whiner, that's not helping me maintain hope. That just adds frustration and discouragement. You know? But if somebody just says, "You know what? I cannot relate to what you're going through. I just." And if they're saying it because it's true, and it probably is, right? I mean, there's all kinds of life conditions that I can't relate to. So, yeah, that was my main point is, you know, to help someone genuinely sense that they're somewhat understood, you know, and there's a level of respect for the tenacity, the perseverance, the strength that they are demonstrating, even if it doesn't hit the bullseye every day. Yeah. That's good. That's really good. Any additional thoughts on the topic of perseverance? Well, I just definitely have come to know God as the God who loves process. And I think that sometimes we need to reframe some of the suffering that we go through, that without suffering, a seed doesn't become a tree. Without suffering, a child's not born, you know, without that process of development. And I always find it interesting, you know, some of these things that, God obviously doesn't have a problem with time, things taking time to develop. Could have brought the Messiah on the scene as an adult, you know, like Methuselah. Right? I mean, he could have, or Melchizedek. He could have brought him in, you know, in that way. But here he is, a seed going through nine months gestation. The Savior's on the scene, but they don't actually encounter him for 30 years. Right? Yeah. So, I just, I think that we need to reframe that that suffering sometimes is producing in us a far greater weight of glory. That kind of brought me to James, chapter 1, verse 2, where it says, "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." Yeah. That's good. Yeah. And just this idea of years and how God doesn't view time really the same way we do. Like, we can, if we elevate the concept of time too high on the hierarchy, we can put too much importance on things happening in a certain timeline or within a certain time frame. And I think there's probably a, just a word of caution against doing that because if we, by comparison, look at other people and say, like, they got healed in a year or they got healed in a week, or they got healed in an hour, and we use that as the barometer to compare our own progress or healing, you know, if we make time so important, then that could interfere with any necessary perseverance, I suppose. Right? Right. And development of character and sometimes losing that, the hope of what is coming and feeling like, almost like, I must not be close to God if I'm not being healed right away, or I must not be doing the right thing. If I just prayed the right prayer or pulled, you know, opened the right door almost like a game show. You know? That's a stressful relationship with God. Yeah, I would say that time and hopelessness, those are probably really closely intertwined, because hopelessness is believing that something is not going to happen. And there's a time element to that, to where it's like, well, if it's not going to happen, then I'm hopeless. And I think that that's perhaps also where mindset can start to creep in. If we start to think that it's never going to happen, that's where depression can certainly start to do its dirty work. That's where anxiety, certainly, just like you're talking about, could start to do its dirty work. And what was interesting is the account of the man at the pool there, I read this in Gill's Exposition of the Bible [Benson Commentary]. It gives a kind of a detailed account, a little bit focusing on the man's, like, temperament and his own responses to Jesus in that moment, which I thought was interesting. So, I'll read that really quick. Gill [Benson Commentary] says, "He signifies that he had made many efforts to get into the pool, but hitherto without success, one or another always preventing him; and none having the charity to say, Your case is worse than mine; do you go in now, and I will stay till the next time; for the old maxim is but too true, Every one for himself. Observe, reader, how mildly this man speaks of the unkindness of those about him, making no peevish reflections on any one. As we should be thankful for the least kindness, so we should be patient under the greatest contempts: and whatever cause we may think we have for resentment, yet we should take care that our expressions be always calm. And observe further, to his praise, that though he had waited so long in vain, yet still he continued lying by the pool side, hoping that some time or other help would come." And I think there is something pretty spectacular about that kind of view of what the man was perhaps experiencing. I know it's a little bit of kind of putting a little bit of, you know. Conjecture? I suppose. Yeah. Kind of its own little bit to it. But he, the account didn't say that he was just like, all these jerks around me that won't do nothing for me. Like, they've seen me here forever. It seemed kind of mild. And I think that resentment, that's something too just really quick, that if you're having a difficult time, resentment and bitterness can make a difficult time a hellish time. And Jordan Peterson kind of talks about this. There's a quote by him. He says, "You get a good combination of resentment and arrogance going you can be sure that you'll end up in something that is pretty much indistinguishable from hell and also that feels like it lasts for an eternity." And so, I think that it would be so easy to have bitterness and resentment build up, especially in this man's case. But it seems as though that hadn't quite developed like that. Yeah. Because if it had, then perhaps his heart wouldn't have been in a proper place to receive the healing when the time came. For example, if he was in fact speaking ill of the other people at the pool, or if he had a harsh response to Jesus. Like, what do you think? I mean, yeah, I want to. Yeah, I want to be the healed. I don't know. You think? I'm here. I mean, something internally could have, he could have been maintaining a certain perseverance, you know, in the fact that he was still at the pool and still being hopeful in perhaps what he thought was the, his best shot at being healed. But he, yeah, resentment didn't appear to be present in the text. Other things that perhaps might hinder progress, bitterness, it didn't appear to be present in him. So maybe those are some things to perhaps, in one's effort to make progress and maintain, at least guard oneself against. Slipping deeper. Slipping deeper perhaps. Right. Yeah. Does that resonate with anybody? Yeah, well, like in the Exodus account, I think it's interesting because before it says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. And that prevented him from hearing the voice of God. And kind of a similar thing going here. I mean, it's kind of a stretch, but it's, I wonder if he had hardened his own heart at the pool, would he be able to hear the voice of God in that moment? Or would the hard, the hard-heartedness be something where it would be more of a repellent? Yeah. Well, I wonder that, when I first, like, I think read this and he's like, "'Do you want to be healed?'" I know there are a few people in my own life I can imagine where, like, if they were like, hey, I have depression and I've had this for my entire life. And I were to be like, well, do you want to be healed? It would be very offensive to them because their identity is wrapped up now in their depression and they maybe have tried ton of different things or a ton of different options. And I think of this man, and I wonder like 38 years, how many people have come up to him and given him like, well-meaning but probably unsolicited advice on what he should do in order to get better. And then Jesus comes up here and asks him this question and he has very valid, like, well, I've tried, like, I've tried and these are the reasons why I can't. And I also think, like, I wonder if this ailment has kind of become part of his identity and in this situation this is a physical problem. So, he can't really, like, he might be at the pool just because it's too hard to go anywhere else. Like, it might be hard to, he might have seen people get healed time after time after time, and maybe he has hope, but I also wonder how hard it is to sit and watch it happen for everybody else. And maybe he doesn't have any hope left anymore. But like, he's like, that's what he keeps seeing, you know? I'm just trying to think of like, situations in my own life where I'm like, I've been waiting on the Lord for something for so long, but if my focus is on that all the time, the hopelessness is then that much bigger. But if you can, if you have the ability to get out and experience life, that thing that you're waiting on doesn't feel so big anymore. But I also have never been, like, you're talking about, like, I've never been in a position where, like, I physically can't go anywhere. I've never had a chronic illness. I've never, like, there's just so many things that I've never experienced. And I just wonder for this particular man, like, is it that he was hanging on to hope? Or could he very well have been hopeless in a position, but he just really, there was no way out? Like, it's. There's just a lot there that we don't. I don't know if we can know that. Well, I think it's interesting too, just. Well, there's the offensiveness of being asked, "do you want to be healed?" Right? That some people might take. But I've heard people say, like, it is kind of intimidating if I've been having this chronic illness for, you know, years and years and years, what does life look like without it? Right. Because I've gotten used to certain things, and that speaks to identity. And it's kind of like being institutionalized. It's like, I, yeah, I mean, I want to be free. I want to be released from prison, but I don't know what life is like on the outside. This guy kind of reminds me of Red from Shawshank. He's like the guy that's been there for, like, ever. And, like, he's just like the old guy that's just kind of like, yeah, I know my way around here. I know, and I, conjecture, but it's like, I see people come and go out of here, but I'm here for the long haul. Yeah. But, yeah, to be kind of institutionalized to where even the prospect of being well can be anxiety-producing because it's like I've gotten used to how things are. I mean. Yeah. Same reason why perhaps, like, an abusive relationship, you know, the spouse won't leave because, like, "Well, this is what I know. And I'm not even sure how I can, you know, fend for myself outside of this relationship." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was kind of what I was seeing when I was thinking about all these people together and him saying, do you want to be made well, because I think that there would have been a lot of them there, that that was their identity and that was their hangout and those were their people. And where, what do I do if now I don't relate to them anymore? If I'm better, I'm not going to be able to relate to my friends. My friends might be jealous. Maybe I don't want to get better. Yeah. Kind of similar, but on a lighter note, if you've ever seen the movie Heavyweights? Yes. Yes. Because they're all like kids that go to fat camp and stuff. And then there's this one leader there who came back one summer and he was super thin, and they all make fun of him because he's no longer one of them. That's right. Yeah. It's the same idea, I think. Exactly. It's like, what is this guy doing here? Yeah. It shows you the power of community and however that may possibly look, it is an extremely powerful thing. Yeah. And so, I don't know if the question itself is so offensive as, I mean, if Jesus said it, it's a legitimate question. Yeah. Well, okay, let me rephrase that. It's not beyond Jesus to offend somebody. Yeah, yeah. But, like, for good reason, though. Like, I think you're saying, like, doesn't Jesus know everything? But the question wasn't really for Jesus. The question was for the man. True. Yeah. I think he had to, like, consider that for a second of, like, what that looks like and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and a little bit to your point, Richelle, it'd be interesting if there was hesitancy, which I don't. I don't know. But to your point about, you know, this is where the people know me. This is where, you know, I've spent the last, you know, few decades. I wonder if, like, I don't know, the prospect of losing, like, sympathy and empathy from the people that get him, because everybody there is suffering from something, and there's truth behind, you know, misery loves company. But then the actual term that makes more sense is misery loves miserable company. That's actually kind of more the case where we're kind of going into, like, more of a negative bent on, you know, how mental health issues can certainly wreak havoc on us is because at least they get me. Yeah. And other people might not. Yeah. And for some people, I think it's the only way that they get attention is, you know, I think for myself growing up, that's when my mom would stop, you know, and she had time. And so, I can see where people do just need that. Like you were talking about affirmation and understanding somebody actually connecting with me. And sometimes I think people don't know how to have healthy, something healthy to connect with other people so they're, they can become victim. And I do see a little bit of victim in his conversation of there's no man. And when the men come, they kind of push me aside and make their way first. And that feels a little bit like a victim. But yeah. Well, maybe, and maybe Dan, you can speak to this. There's probably two different types of affirmation. Affirmation can come from somebody who is in the same boat, you know, let's say like a fellow person who's also ill. And that affirmation would be like, you know, perhaps not encouraging anybody to change their mindset or perhaps feed into the self-despair or self-pity or something like that. There can also be affirmation connecting with someone, empathizing with them to encourage them to say, like, I see you, I acknowledge the pain that you're in. That can be an entirely different approach. That person is also acknowledging what's happening, but there's, they're coming alongside the person to pull them out of it, to help them along. And so, it seems like because community is so strong, people will latch on to whichever one is being presented to them. If it's only being presented from the ones who are encouraging, well, I'll say discouraging, just discouraging and perhaps finding that, an identity and not changing. If, anyway, I think I've kind of made the point, hopefully. So yeah, I do have some thoughts on that. I really try to remind myself and I think it's wise for all of us to be very cautious about deciding if someone has a victim mentality. Even if they do. Like even if God said, yep, that person has a victim mentality. Like even if they did though, do we want to help them? But let's suppose that we can't completely know another person's heart, which is reasonable, right? So, I think it's really wise to be cautious about landing on those perceptions or making those conclusions about another person because, well, first of all, we might be wrong, right? And I think in a lot of cases we are. And the reason I say that is, so I would differentiate between, Chris, I think I heard you use the word "affirmation," I think that can be part of it, I use the word "respect" because I think each person really does want a level of understanding and respect. So, for example, I guess go back to my analogy of a pregnant woman. Like, no matter what she says to me, how, you know, I've had five children or, you know, I mean, I can get it intellectually, right. I can get it rationally, but I'm never going to be able to say to a woman, "Oh, I absolutely get it. Yeah, I've been there." No, like, or maybe a totally different analogy. You know, let's say I meet somebody in the Marines, or they've been in the Marines, or they've been in the military, right? And they've had two limbs blown off. They have seen, you know, they have seen combat. They have seen life experiences that are beyond anything I could even fathom. Right? I think it would be foolish for me to say that person, yeah, man, I get it. I hear you. Like, no, I don't, I don't get it. I, it would be silly for me to say that to that person, right? I would say something like, man, I cannot even imagine what it would be like for you to have been in that situation. Both your legs were blown off. Like, I can't relate. But what I can kind of think about it, I have huge respect for what you went through. Now, if that person who lost their limbs still wants to try to have an active, healthy lifestyle with that respect for what they've gone through, I could potentially be, then help them go down a path of, oh, that's such a bummer that you had that happen. Or I could still show the same amount of respect for the strength it took and for what they went through and lean him in the direction, hey, what can you do? Right? So, there's kind of that crossroads in that conversation, in that relationship. So, I still think it's really helpful, again, if we really want to help someone who's struggling, to somehow, I think even if we're convinced they have a victim mentality, have they been through some really difficult times? If the answer is yes, why not communicate, why not demonstrate some respect for what they've gone through? Because I think if they sense that and it's genuine, there's going to be more trust established and there's going to be more openness in their heart to maybe a tactful challenge in the next two minutes of the conversation versus if they just think, well, this person just doesn't get it; they're not saying anything to me that helps me even think they even have any real respect at all for what I've been through. Yeah. And the question can be, how can we position ourselves in such a way where somebody wants to hear what we have to say on the matter or to help give them a hand? Because, and maybe this goes a little bit to like, you know, the, you know, talking about like missionaries, right? It's like, well, preaching the word of God and not feeding their, you know, their hunger. It's like that, that's going to fall flat. Feed them, help them physically and the things that they need and then, you know, we can get to that other, that deeper level. Yeah. It's, and I think that's like in therapy, it's building like the relationship. And it sounds like it's like a means to an end, like, we're just building a relationship just so we can, you know, do some, finally do some work. No, it's authentic. But like with anything you have to build that trust with somebody and they have to be able to trust you enough to, where you start to turn that corner to maybe start to say like, okay, let's, you know, are we taking care of hygiene today? If it's really, you know, a difficult spot. Are we getting up and getting outside of the house? If the person doesn't think that there's even an ounce of respect or like, I care to understand what they're going through, they're going to be like, well, don't tell me what to do. I mean, I don't care what you have to say. And so, it is kind of like this, certainly this element of trying as best you can to understand. Right? Yeah, there's the, I'll never understand what you're going through, but please try to explain it to me. Like, help me to understand as best I can what is it you're going through. Because I don't know what you've gone through. But I'd love to try to learn. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another thing I thought of is, with regard to that, you know, I don't know if it's, call it a fine line or call it a, you know, kind of a mixture of respect and empathy. But, for example, when I was going through some of my tougher times, one of the things I realized was to not become self-absorbed, because you can. Like a silly analogy I use is, let's say I'm walking down the waterfront in Kirkland, those big docks that go out, and I see someone who's drowning. Would I look at them go, man, you are so self-centered. Can't you just think about anyone else other than? No, the person's drowning. They're going to be 100% self-centered in that moment, right? So similarly, sometimes people, now somebody might say, well they're not really drowning in life, it's just their perception. But either way, if they think they're really drowning in life, right, like they're going to be pretty self-centered in that moment, right? But the reason I bring that up is, for example, I realize that if I allowed myself—and it ties into mindset of course—is if I allowed myself to become super self-absorbed, it wasn't helping me at all. Like, so even if I only chose to not, or even if I only chose to demonstrate care for others and think about others for selfish reasons, it was super helpful because if I became self-absorbed, it was just, it was a down arrow. And so, I actually volunteered twice a month for five years at a place called Echo Glenn Children's Center. It's with incarcerated 10- to 21-year-olds. The kids out there will have stories that would rip your heart out. And I volunteered in one of their cottages with a group of, there'd usually be anywhere between like 15 to 20 boys. And I basically had a Bible study out there for like five years. And I realized that I had to develop this really appropriate mixture of compassion and empathy and heart, right? With what we might call tough love, you know? And to your point, like there were kids out there that, you know, I would be out there sometimes for months and the same kids would be like, f you, you know, we don't care. I mean they're not only in their attitude but some of their actual words, you know, and then, you know, it might be months later and some, something would turn in them and I think it was probably trust that, wow, this guy is consistent, you know. And then that kid that was like one of the toughest ones in the group, he would be like teared up and telling me, man, I just been, so great to have you out here and you know, just letting you know I'm going to be, I'm going to be leaving soon, but thanks so much for coming out. So, yeah, and we, and I think we don't really know like, how long does it take? You know? So, it's, I think sometimes we can think, well man, I've known this person at my church, I have like, they should be over this by now. And maybe they should be, you know? But just to be, kind of figure out a way to have that balance of empathy and compassion with, how can I develop trust to then help them move forward? Yeah. Yeah. Bringing that little, that shield down. Right? Whether that shield is hope deferred or the shield is, I've been hurt a lot. And I'm not going to say I want to get healed yet from you until you're safe. Right. Until this feels like there really is hope here. Because I think everybody wants hope. Yeah. Well, and if learned helplessness, I don't think that happens just overnight. It takes a long time to develop learned helplessness. So, by, I think logically speaking, then it would take some time to unlearn learned helplessness. Right? And so, I guess that's kind of to that point too, where it might take a little bit of time, just striking that balance of when do you push? When do you just love on them for a little bit? And then just kind of, we'll just walk with somebody through it. Yeah. Yeah. So, I've definitely walked, particularly with my granddaughter for, you know, years and you get these breakthroughs and these hopes, and you keep hoping and. But it can be discouraging. And, you know, we've walked with some people that have gone up for prayer and they start getting a miracle. Right? And then it's not fully realized. Yeah. So, I just think to keep hoping would be an area that I think we want to encourage people to keep on hoping and grab those little miracles, right, along the way. But it's hard. Yeah, sure. It's hard. It's hard for the whole entire family when somebody is struggling. And I've got more than one very, very close member doing a lot of suffering that they don't understand because it's been, they feel not seen. Well, and it's hard to maintain hope, too, when, for example, here's a simple analogy that we all can probably relate to some degree. You know, a lot of people go to the gym and work out. Right? Well, let's say you say, okay, I really want to get in shape. I'm going to invest in a personal trainer. I'm going to invest in, and I'm going to commit to three months or six months or whatever. And you know that that trainer is working out with other people, right? Let's say you happen to meet some of their other clients, right? And you see, you know, they're building muscle. They're, you know, whatever it is. Right? Like, you can objectively see these other people are making progress. Or let's say it's group fitness, right? So, then you're definitely going to be able to see other people, right? And you're going, you're like, you are not getting anywhere. You're like, what in the world? Like, I'm just as physically capable. I'm eating, like what they're telling me to eat. I'm sleeping well. Like, I'm, I got the supplements, I got the protein powders, and I like, what? So, in that kind of a situation, and that's what it can be sometimes with chronic illnesses, is you're like, how many more doctors am I going to go to? How many more hundreds of dollars of grocery bags, literally of supplements, am I going to invest in? Like, you can get to the point where it's just like. And it's not necessarily just that that person has a negative attitude or a victim mindset. It's like, hey, if you had gone through what they, you wouldn't have a hard time being Mr. Positive, you know? So, it can get really challenging. Yeah. And I think that's where Chris even kind of proposed to us early on, that thought of, is there something that you're not seeing that could possibly help? And I think sometimes people either are just in that physical focus, right, supplements, all those things, or they're so focused on the emotional. And sometimes it's physical and emotional, or sometimes it's like you need the emotional component. There's trauma that has your body trapped in fight or flight and you can't heal even though you're giving it all these good things. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was, Jesus definitely, he had a call to action. He said, "'Get up, take up your bed, and walk.'" And if the man was so fixed on one particular source of his healing, you know, could he have missed that instruction from Jesus telling him to do something that he didn't think, you know, was possible? So, I just, yeah, if our mindsets are perhaps not open to how could this healing possibly come through? Like, are we open to listening, asking for discernment, asking, you know? At least ask for discernment or wisdom. Like, am I missing something nutritionally or am I missing something? Because I think, Dan, you said that you've—I watched your account on YouTube, on your channel—you had about an hour-long interview, and you said that eventually you visited a naturopath. And that person said, well, because of your surgery, you must be lacking a particular acid now. And it's like, well, where did, where this come, where did this idea come from? Like, wow, this. And it was a game changer, wasn't it? Oh, absolutely, yeah. So just briefly, I mean, so when they took my whole large intestine, something happened in my body where when I went for my next teeth cleaning—and up to that point, all the years that I'd struggled with, I had a condition called ulcerative colitis. And over 13 years, it just progressively destroyed my large intestine. They had, I had the whole thing removed in Bellevue in August 2009. A month, two months later, I go in for what I thought was going to be a normal teeth cleaning. And they're like, oh, my gosh, you've lost massive bone that holds your teeth. Your teeth are, you know, your gums are bleeding like crazy. I'm like, what the heck? So that started, that was after the 13 years of the colitis, after the first surgery, that started me on 10 years of trying to keep my teeth in my head, literally. I mean, I got to the point where my teeth were, like, almost gonna fall out. And so, I mean, I went, I spent five days at the Mayo Clinic. The Mayo Clinic, right? Like, the Mayo Clinic. Like, people fly from around the world to go to the Mayo Clinic, right? For multiple years, I've been going to University of Washington, seeing their best gastrointestinal specialists, their best oral health specialists. Nobody had any answers. I had at least two places in the Seattle area that would not schedule any more appointments with me regarding my teeth. They're like, there's nothing else you can do. You have to go get your teeth removed, and it's going to cost you a minimum of $30,000. Like, that's. We just won't schedule any more appointments with you. So, I was in a really tough spot. I didn't have $30,000. I didn't know they could do that. And. And so, I'm just like, I'm going to go back to this naturopathic clinic, and I'm just going to see a different doctor there who might have a different perception. And I literally, like, literally I've spent 10 years. How many deep cleanings with multiple periodontists? I've been to the Mayo Clinic. I sit down with this doctor, and he goes—I just gave him the bullet points: ulcerative colitis for 13 years, large intestine removed, and then I started having all this bleeding in my gums and stuff—and he literally just goes like this, he goes, huh? No large intestine. Well, if you don't have your large intestine, you're probably really low on butyric acid. And I'm like, what's that? I've been in the Mayo Clinic. I've seen the best of the best. I've been to the University of Washington. Nobody has ever said anything about butyric acid. He turns his laptop toward me. He's on Amazon, and he goes, see, he goes. He said, oh, yeah, you should try this. It was 90 capsules for $27. I got it, had it delivered. And about a week later, as I was brushing my teeth. Normally, when I would brush my teeth, I'd spit a bunch of blood in the sink. Like, not just a little pink, but pretty gross. So, I'm brushing my teeth one night and I spit, and all of a sudden, I'm like, there's no blood. Wow. He wanted me to take a breathing test for something else he wanted to test in my body. He said to do the test effectively, you're gonna have to stop the butyric acid for a week, do the test, and then you can go back on the butyric acid. So, the bleeding had stopped for the first time in 10 years. Then I stopped it to prepare for this other test. Several days after stopping the butyric acid, the gums are bleeding again. I take the test, I go back back on the butyric acid, and ever since then, no more bleeding. Wow. So, $27 once a month solved what, $10,000 to $12,000 and visits to these. Yeah. Yeah. And the naturopath's, like, that'll be $30,000. Yeah. Yeah. I fixed you, didn't I? What's it worth to you? But that even ties into the concept of perseverance. Right? And mindset. Like, I was at the point where I'm like, I am tired of this, but, you know, I was in such a desperate spot that it just pushed me to try again. Yeah. Well, and there's something psychologically about perseverance, which is, particularly with depression, hopelessness is the importance of continuing to put one foot in front of the other. Because you don't, you honestly don't know which next step is going to be the thing that fixes you. But if you were like, forget it, like, I've been told so many times that, they're not even going to see me anymore. I mean, how much more of a like a dead end you have to get to, to where, like, the best of the best is like, we can't do anything else. And then for you to just take one more step to say, okay, one more idea. And that was the thing that put you, you know, helped to put you on this different path. Yeah. Incredible. One man. One man showed up. Yeah. I mean, think about all the stories of so many people who were sent home to die. Get your affairs in order. And they took a turn. And they lived for years after the diagnosis, where the doctor said, it's hopeless. You're gonna die. Sure. And they're like, no, I'm not. I'm gonna live. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, if I say this, I'm, there might be some caveats here, especially with a doctor of psychology in the room. But I think I was, like, 17 when I really read this and really realized that I was really going through something. And, I mean, when I was 17, that was 20 years ago. So. You do the math, people. Yeah. So, that meaning, like, there wasn't, like, we didn't have, like, the Internet at our fingertips. We couldn't just, like, lookup, "Oh, I'm feeling down. Why?" And, like, "What do I do about it?" It was like, you really would have to go to a counselor. You'd have to go to a professional. You have to, like, there were so many things that you couldn't necessarily do on your own. And I was reading my Bible one day, and this particular passage came out to me. And when Jesus says, like, do you want to be made well? And he's like, well, there's no one to help me into the water and whatnot. That was, I could relate to that. And then Jesus is like, well, just pick up your mat and walk. And I remember thinking, like, but that's what he couldn't do. Like, that's like, Jesus just tells him, like, told him to do something he can't do. But for me, it was this moment of, like, Jesus saying, like, if you were healed, what would that look like in your life and what would you do differently? And go do that thing. And the reason I say that, like, kind of with some trepidation, is because, like, that's where my faith was at that point. And I would hate to talk to someone who's currently going through that and minimize their experience and being like, just go do better. But I do think there's something to be said for, like, catching a vision for what you're hoping your life looks like or what you would do differently, and then walking into those things without necessarily overthinking it too much or just sitting and, like, debating on the next step for so long. And so, for me, it was like, okay, if I, if I weren't so, like, bogged down by depression, I probably would come home from school and I'd go, like, take a walk instead of feeling like I need to go lay down and ignore everything happening in my life. I probably would just go do the dishes instead of thinking for a long time about everything that's making me sad. I actually would probably take a lot of action steps. And so, that is what translated for me at, 20 years ago. And I don't think it was the end all of all. I didn't cure anything. There were years down the road where I would have to kind of revisit, like the actual, I think a lot of the things that caused depression in my life, it was a lot of ignoring a lot of trauma that happened. And so, a lot of things got built up over time. But in that moment, I think, and in that season, that was a game changer for me, and it helped pull me into the next seasons of my life that would later get me to a space where I could really deal with the things that were initially causing that. So. Yeah, that's really good. And like how you were saying it is, you know, with, if it's depression, if it's, you know, chronic illness, I do think that both can present itself as feeling like you're not in control. Like there's an element of my life or a huge part of my life that's out of my control. And I love what you said because it's like you're basically asking yourself, well, what's, what is in my control? What can I still do? And I think that when we're working with depression, that's one of the questions that is really important to ask is, well, what is still in your control? Can you get out of bed in the morning? Yes. Okay, let's build off of that. And, and to your earlier point, Dan, where it's praising, like, the wins. Right. And I've talked to so many people in therapy where it's like, not many people will recognize this as a big win, but I see it. It's a huge one, what you just did this week. It's like, you actually went and applied to a job? Like one? That's amazing. Right? You took a shower? Fantastic. I mean, that's a huge win. And so, it's recognizing the wins, but also reminding yourself there are things that are in my control. There are things that I can still do. Right. Because otherwise we can truly believe and convince ourselves that everything is out of our control. And I can't get any of it back. It's the small wins. And so, it's engaging with the things that are in your control and recognizing that it's a good step. I think something too, that helps in those situations is, I kind of alluded to it a moment ago, but recognizing that to get super, what's the term I use? Self-absorbed? Yeah, self-absorbed in your own challenges. First of all, it's super counterproductive. Right? And somewhere there's a balance between thinking about myself and what do I need to do today and what should I eat or whatever. Right? So, we have to think about ourselves to some degree. But to become super self-absorbed is really unhealthy and counterproductive. And so, to help that, I have found personally and encouraging others with the coaching I do is, it's super practical, but make a list of what you can or should be thankful for. Literally as simple as, do you have a pair of shoes? There's people that don't have shoes or they're. Right? You know, I mean, I have a phone. Well, what does that mean? Everybody has. Yeah. But I can get on here and find encouragement in a minute. Right? I can, I can text a friend. Right? I have a car. It has a lot of miles on it. I don't know how long it's going to last. But you know what? I have a car, and I got in my own car today and I drove to church where there was encouragement and the Spirit of God. So, I think it's really helpful to ask people, you know, to help that mindset, you know, that element of gratitude, thankfulness and not. And in a very real way, though. You know? Because it, and to help somebody see, hey, I don't, I'm not just trying to have, help you have a positive attitude, but having a positive, thankful attitude, it'll actually, literally help you. Yeah. You know? It changes your brain connectivity. You actually start to see things more positively. And just to piggyback off of that, just a very practical way, I would just encourage listeners, yeah, to start to develop gratitude in your own life, is write down three a day at night, and I'd say three in the morning. So, the three in the evening is looking back to what good things went right that particular day. It could be as small as, you know, it was a sunny day or, you know, there's a bird that flew by, is nice. And then in the morning, I would just say look forward to the day. And that is kind of more to your point Dan, which is like, what do you have to be thankful for looking forward to the day? Well, I can put shoes on. That's great. I've got a car. I got a phone. Those are all good things. So, yeah, bookending gratitude, I think is really helpful for sure. Yeah. And remembering the wins. Remembering where you overcame, right? We overcome by the word of our testimony. Well, that's even sometimes for ourselves. For ourselves to tell ourselves, "Remember this. Remember this miracle. Remember this time that you overcame. Remember this time that you broke through." And you know, in our minds and in our brains, the chemistry of our brains—kind of like what you're saying with gratitude—well, when we remember these things, it's as if it's happening again. And so, it is actually building up our physical well-being. It's causing our body to rally up. Oh, we're healing. We are getting better. Yeah. Which probably speaks to the importance of even writing those things down. Like have a journal to actually document those things to reflect on at a later time. You know, like what could I review and relive all over again? Right. Those positive things. And so, it probably goes to the importance of not keeping a negative journal. I mean, putting things in the journal that, well, this went terrible today. Those are called diaries. A little unload, but then lift up at the end. You know. I mean, you. Be real, but. Yeah. But if you're going to relive it all over again through something that you can wrote, hopefully it's something that you can benefit from. Right? We become what we think about all day long. Well, and I think I mentioned this in the Thanks podcast, but with gratitude, you can write down three a day, but you can write them on little slips of paper and then put each of those into a jar and then watch the jar fill up and you have a visual representation of all the right that's going on in your life. Then if you need a boost, just pick one out and then remind yourself, oh, this is what I was grateful for, you know, a week ago or a month ago or a year ago. And so, it's, sometimes it's really important to have that visual representation of the positives, of the gratitudes and it's to remind yourself God is good. And if it doesn't seem like it's filling fast enough with the little slips of paper, use a full sheet of paper. I like it. Trick the brain. Something else I was thinking about related to thoughts. And this is just a super, super practical life experience that I thought of. But for anybody who's played sports, like I think of playing high school football back in Minnesota and you know, there was nothing spiritual about it. It was football for a public high school. Right? But—and I played more on defense—but there were times when we pretty much knew, like we're gonna lose this game, like it's gonna take 'em. But we would still be in the huddle, and, you know, to some degree there was probably an element of authentic faith in what we were saying. But we would get in the huddle and say, we're gonna stop these guys, we're gonna stop them right here. We're gonna get the ball back. There's one minute left on the clock. If we can get the ball back here on the fourth down, we're gonna stop them here at the goal line, we're gonna get the ball back and we are gonna score and we're gonna win this game. Right? And that was just a football game. Yeah. But I really believe that actually saying those words, even though if we, if you would have pulled everybody aside one-by-one and say, hey, honestly, do you really think you're gonna win this game? They would have probably said, I don't know, that's probably not real likely. Right? But, but to actually say that with enthusiasm, right? And say, no, we're gonna stop these guys, we're gonna get the ball back, we're gonna get the ball back to our offense and they're gonna score and we're gonna win the game. Right? So, all that to say is I think, we're all Christians here, right? So, we have that spiritual element. And so even more so, you know, I really think that even if I feel like it is misery, like if I can just, even if I don't really believe it, if I can just say somehow today's going to turn around, somehow I'm going to make progress, you know? You know, of course we can use Scripture, and we have the Holy Spirit, so we have that power within us as well. So, I, but I really think that's a key part too, is. Or at the least, and I really learned this a little over a year ago, I guess, I really, probably about two years ago, I got to the point, I'm like, you know what? Even if I can't say anything in the affirmative and faith based, I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna shut up. I'm not gonna speak negative. I'm not gonna complain even to myself, you know? Or to others. I'm just gonna either zero, either neutral or faith filled words, you know, which then affect our thoughts and affect our emotions and our actions. Not denying our situation though. Right. Because staying in truth, I think is really important and valuable. Yeah. Well, yeah, if the guy was like, I'm already healed. Yeah. What can you possibly do for me? Things are just peachy keen. Right. Look at the scoreboard. We're two touchdowns ahead. No, we're not. Yeah. Don't be delusional. Right. It's like what miracle? You know? Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Acknowledging something has to change, but. Right. Well, I think that is part of faith is taking into account reality. Right. Like, you can't discount reality too. Otherwise, faith isn't necessary, you know? So. But there's probably a way to be realistic and not negative. Right. Those things can probably coexist, right? Yeah, absolutely. Usually, the word "and" is somewhere in there. Yeah. Like, I'm going through this and. Yep. Right. There is a mountain in front of me, but I am climbing, and I will come to the top and overcome it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, are we ready to move on to closing thoughts? Or is there anything that you prepared all night, and you didn't get to say yet, and you're gonna leave really disappointed because you didn't get to say what? Well, I was just gonna say. So, I've encouraged people just, like, prepare laughter. You know, find a few of your favorite comedians on YouTube or whatever and prepare it so, you know that, you know, if you're going through a hard time or even for people, their life is good, right, you know, you might hit a tough spot, and. Now you probably know more about this, I'm sure you know more about this than me, but my understanding is there is actual physiological things that happen in the body, in the brain, when we laugh. I mean, the Bible even says laughter is good medicine. Right? So even just simple is like, because I think, you know, when people really get stuck in a, and they really might have circumstances that warrant being negative and, you know, like, hey, if I was in that position, I'd probably be pretty negative too. But in spite of it, like, if you can just get yourself to laugh at something for two minutes or five minutes. I mean, it can change your mindset. Well, and really quick, Dan, to your point about. About laughter is it's kind of wild that just smiling alone actually changes your mood also. I mean, I love, yes, I 100% agree. Have something in the hopper. Have, like a TV show that you go to. Have something that you just know is going to, you know, lift your spirits every time. But it's pretty wild that you can just start smiling and you will start to feel a little bit better. And it doesn't even have to be genuine. You can do fake smiles and fake laughter, and you get the same result. But I guarantee you, you will turn into real smiles and real laughter if you are faking. There's a small window where you look like a freak. But. It's also a disorder, I believe. Laughing at inappropriate times. I think the Joker had it. I think I have it. Yeah, a merry heart is good medicine. That's the Scripture I was thinking of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of years. Okay, so yeah, closing thought for me. It's kind of the idea that Jesus pursues us. And we kind of mentioned a little bit earlier today where with all the people that were there at the pool, Jesus went to this man specifically. And so, among the many, Christ sees you. I think that's one thing to keep in mind. But so just kind of re-rereading the Scriptures just for a quick second. So, starting around verse 10 says, "Now that day was the Sabbath. So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, 'It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.' .... Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, 'See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.'” And so, Jesus pursued this man twice. First when he found him at the pool and then afterwards at the temple. And Jesus isn't just concerned with your physical well-being; he wants you to be spiritually whole also. And so, he made it a point to talk to the man one more time to say, see, like first of all, it's awesome. See you're healed! How cool is that? So, he's like excited with the man. But then he speaks to something more deep, which is go and sin no more. Because there's other things at stake here that's not just physical, it's spiritual. And so, I love it. He doesn't just, a) he doesn't leave us in our suffering, in our despair, but he also isn't going to just be okay with us feeling better physically. He also wants us to be whole spiritually. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Yeah. That ties into—I don't remember the reference, but I don't know if I can quote it, I can probably get a pretty good paraphrase—but the Scripture that says, beloved above all things, I wish that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers. And I know different versions might not use the word prosper, but the idea of health and well-being and even as your soul prospers. Right. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like soul first. Even as your soul prospers your health does. Right? Yeah. Well, one of the thoughts I have, just a closing thought I would say, is again, I really, I try to help someone understand who's not going through the chronic thing because there's more people that aren't than people that are. And so, there's more people that are potentially available to provide encouragement more effectively. Right? And so my encouragement for those people, if you have a spouse, if you have a friend, if you have a neighbor, co-worker, cousin, whatever, somebody that you think could use some encouragement and actual practical help is to acknowledge and recognize when you can't relate, just swallow your pride and just say, I can't relate to that. If it's true, just acknowledge it. And I think even in the acknowledging it, you could probably speak to this more from your professional background experience. But just to acknowledge to someone, you know, I can't relate to that, you know, but I want to understand it more. I want to be helpful, you know, how can I help you? You know, would you like help? And then also maybe sometimes not just giving advice or saying, hey, have you tried this? But sometimes saying, you know, I know you've probably tried a lot of things. You probably get tired of people giving you suggestions. You know? I have an idea though, but I don't want to be another one of those persons that's just dumping suggestions on you. You know? Would you mind if I share it with you? So, taking more of that kind of approach rather than just throwing recommendations or ideas. And then the last thing I would share is I've been a hiker over the years, thankfully, in spite of the health challenges. In fact, it's something that kind of kept me going, kept me persevering. But I kind of thought of the analogy of, let's say you've got a group of people that are going to go hiking up the mountain and some are in great physical condition and they're athletes and some are not so much. And then let's say, you know, you got six people and five of the people are all carrying 20-pound packs and this other person has a 50-pound pack. If you're hiking up the mountain and the person with the 50-pound pack starts going, oh my gosh, man, this is hard. And everybody else in turn goes, dude, don't so have such a negative attitude. You got to stay positive. Come on, we're all in. Like, if you don't even acknowledge the fact that that guy is carrying 30 more pounds, then everybody, like it, why not just acknowledge? And say, hey, you know. So, you know, I think you kind of get the takeaway, is to say to someone, hey, you know, like, I have not been through what you're going through. My guess is it's probably really challenging, and I respect that, and I respect your perseverance. So, because those are things that I've personally seen people neglect, personally. And then in talking to people over the years, those are some of the frustrations I've heard. It's like they just don't get it, you know, and like, they just treat me like I'm just a whiner, you know. And so, I think that can really help. If somebody really does want to help, I think those are some things that really can help someone be more helpful. That's really good. It's like, if you can't help somebody out of the pit, then let me get down in it with you as best I can. Yeah. I know it won't be an exact understanding of what you're going through, but I know that right now it might be kind of tough to get out of it, but, you know what? I want to hang here, you inside of it for a bit then. I think, like, what, to what you're saying, not that we need to go down this whole tangent, but, like, if I'm able to say I don't understand what that's been like, that in essence builds a bridge right there of connection where that gives that person an opportunity to maybe describe their experience or to, like, bring you into that experience, rather than if I, if I sit here, like, I totally understand what you're going through, I feel like it just stops conversation. Like, it just kind of stops whatever connection could have happened there. And I think even to that point, like, there might have been, like, experiences that I've been through, that maybe someone has been through the same experience. But, like, different people, we have, we will probably have a different understanding of a shared experience. And so, I think either way, that ability to kind of step back from it, it allows the connection rather than destroys it. So. Yeah, well said. I like that. Validating. Yeah. Validating that your pain is different than my pain. And do you need to share, giving that opportunity? Well, I would say my closing thoughts maybe kind of go around not losing hope. Don't lose hope. Keep looking outside when we're focused inside. We've talked about that a lot, that the more you focus on the pain, the more you feel pain. The more somebody's asking you tell me your symptoms, right, you're just constantly so focused on, well, what are my symptoms, what is getting better? And, but to have that focus outside. And I see that in this man, 38 years in this illness, and he is still looking for a man. He's actually still looking for someone to help him. He's not focused—when Jesus asks him, do you want to be made well, he doesn't start talking about his illness. He's talking about what he's looking for to get well. He was being as proactive as he could be in the circumstances that he was in. And he got his miracle, and miracles still happen. So don't stop hoping. And I love the fact that it happened on the Sabbath. Like, I don't know if that was like a known thing that it probably wasn't going to happen on the Sabbath. Like, if everybody that would get healed would get healed, but it was going to be a day other than the Sabbath. But his healing came on the Sabbath. So potentially the day that he was least expecting to ever be healed is when he received his relief. That's interesting. Makes you wonder. Was the angel never stirring the waters on Sunday? Well, it was a season. Because they wouldn't be able to walk in there and carry their. It was a seasonal thing. Yeah. So, what was that season? I think that is an accurate observation because I do think, I'm thinking of another Scripture where the Pharisees or, you know, the Sadducees or whoever, the religious leaders and stuff, they got mad at Jesus and they overtly got mad at him because he healed on the Sabbath. So, I think they actually said, you know, heal on other days. So, I think that's totally accurate. Oh, yeah, definitely. Okay. So, my closing thoughts were around kind of the idea of the word being years and just that idea of waiting and how waiting can often feel like a curse in the meantime. But in actuality, it can, it really is, can be a blessing. And thinking of this guy that's been sitting here for 38 years and he didn't get healed by the pool, but it was because he got the opportunity to be healed by Jesus himself, even if that's, like, not how he was, he didn't understand that at the time. Like, to me, it still boggles my mind that, like, he was just, he was just sitting there and then this man walked up and is like, go. And he doesn't know who Jesus is at this time. And we have the luxury of knowing that. But the other thing then is like, he, he's been there that whole time. So, he's, he probably has tried this before. Like, this, like getting up on, I'm sure in 38 years he's tried to stand up on his own and get up on his mat. But it was Jesus coming him and, like, commanding him to do so that gave him the grace to do it. So even if it's something that has been done over and over—or attempted to be done over and over and over again—maybe timing is a factor, maybe God's grace to do something is a factor. And also, that he was really just in the same spot for so many years on end. And like, to your point, Jesus pursued him. And so, he didn't necessarily have to do something completely out of the ordinary or go try all these different things in order to get it. I mean, I do think that some of our faith walk can be, like, working in tandem with the Lord to have, like, changes occur in our life. But I also think that there are times like this, for instance, where God just meets us where we're at, and it really is just because he's so good and just because he loves us so much. And so, for all of our striving and for all of our trying, there are just times where God just meets us. And I wish that there was, like, more in there to indicate why, like, so I could tell the Lord, like, hey, like, I'm doing that thing that he did, and like, now, will you do it for me? But it's not like that. God just sometimes just reveals himself to us and is really good to us that way. So, I think that sums it up. That's good. Yeah. Richelle, you mentioned earlier the phrase set your house in order. And that brings to mind this case in Isaiah 38. That's where that phrase happens. It's when the prophet Isaiah is talking to Hezekiah. And there's this Old Testament passage here in which it says, in Isaiah 38, "In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, 'Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover.' Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, and said, 'Please, O Lord, remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.' And Hezekiah wept bitterly. Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: 'Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will add fifteen years to your life.'" And that might be a little different situation. I mean, he's a political figure, he's a king, he's representing a large people group. There could be a lot of things going into what exactly is in his exact situation, you know. But the point I'm trying to make is that Hezekiah actually, he prayed, and God responded to the prayer, it would appear here. And so, it's a relationship thing, like God reaches out to us. Like Jesus went to the man at the pool. We can also pray to him. You know, it's like a kind of a two-way thing. And so, there's, I think, something to be said in, it's kind of like Jesus asked the man, "'Do you want to be healed?'" You know? Well, in this case, the, Hezekiah, he prayed and God responded. So just prayer alone, I think is, it's a, add it to the list of things to do. Yeah. You know, don't neglect that aspect of it. Pray for yourself. You know, I think that's important as well. In the midst of facing a challenge is, you can still pray. Yeah. What's the modern-day example of the pool of Bethesda? Maybe it's a, you know, chasing a healing ministry. Right? Or going to one thing after another after another. Right? I still haven't been healed. I've gone to all these different services. Right? Prayer. I mean, Jesus can meet you exactly where you're at. There you go. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about that is that then he actually gives him a health remedy. He does. Right? So not only does the Lord say, okay, I'm going to give you 15 years, but go make this, what, fig poultice or whatever it is and put it on your sore. And that was what healed him. So, the Lord spoke the word, and he also gave instructions for something that he had provided in the earth that would bring healing. Yeah. So great. Yeah. Yeah. In verse 21 there talks about, “'Let them take a cake of figs and apply it to the boil, that he may recover.'” And 1 Timothy 5:23, "(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)" There's proactive steps in nature in. That's controversial. Well, separate episode. But. Jesus wine, it's different. Yes. New wine. It's translated Ensure in Greek. A little Ensure for the belly. Grape flavor, grape flavor. Happy Belly Tea. There we go. Well, that wraps up this episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Thank you to our panelists. Thank you to our listeners. We look forward to another episode soon. Take care everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com. Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. The ESV text may not be quoted in any publication made available to the public by a Creative Commons license. The ESV may not be translated in whole or in part into any other language.