Episode Transcript
You guys want to hear my joke just for fun?
Sure.
Okay.
We can open with it.
You don't have to do that. I just wanted to tell it to you guys.
Okay.
Why was this snowman looking at a bag of carrots? Looking through a bag of carrots? I'm sorry.
I don't know.
No one knows.
He was picking his nose.
Picking his nose.
That was. It was a joke I overheard at the school. I was walking to the break room and I overheard a teacher telling another teacher that joke. And it was a beautiful moment because I wasn't even part of the conversation. I was like, I just heard someone deliver a punchline to a joke.
That's awesome. I like it.
Well, welcome to another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
My name is Chris. I am your host once again.
And in the studio, of course, is Dr. Jon, and from Reach Ministry, Mandy Michaels and special education teacher Robyn Nelson. Welcome, everybody.
Good to be. Here.
Good to be. Good to be, in general.
How philosophic.
To be or not to be?
Good to be.
Good to be.
Good to be.
We are looking at the book of John, chapter 3.
And in John chapter three, verse 16 is arguably one of the most popular verses out there. We're going to look at what happens just before John 3:16 today in John chapter 3, verses 14 and 15.
Actually, we'll go before that.
John chapter 3 verses 13-15 in the ESV,
"'No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.'"
So, Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus and he's telling him, speaking of heavenly things, right? He said in the verse before, if I've told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
And Jesus is referencing this account in Numbers chapter 21 when Moses lifted up this serpent in the wilderness.
And before we get to that, just looking at the word "lifted," the word lifted in the Strong's Lexicon talks about the word is "to lift up, to exalt, to raise high."
And it says,
"In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of being 'lifted up' or exalted was associated with honor, power, and divine favor. In Jewish thought, being exalted by God was seen as a sign of His blessing and approval. The New Testament writers, particularly in the context of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, use this term to convey the paradox of Christ's humiliation and subsequent exaltation."
So very interesting there.
We'll dive in a little more closely into Numbers 21 in a moment to look at that account of Moses actually lifting up the serpent there. But opening thoughts as we just kind of open up this topic around the table.
Yeah, I mean, the, the more I looked at this word and the context, it just is unfolded more and more. It's one of those, those passages, Scripture that's just. I don't know, the more you dwell on it, the more life it seems to produce.
And I think for my opening thought, I'll just. I'll just make the comparison of John 3:16, like the, the thought of, you know, the most visible and known scripture basically in the Bible. But I'm going to compare. I know we're going to go to Numbers in a second, but, but the, the account of, of the snake. But I think that's kind of an interesting parallel there.
So, John 3:16, right?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
So, then the scripture that is being referred to in, in John right before that scripture is Numbers 21:8, or at least a portion of it. And then that it says,
"'And the Lord said to Moses, 'Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.'”
And I was just looking at those two verses kind of side by side a bit. And the more I kind of looked at it, the more they are kind of a parallel to each other. "For God so loved the world," and then, "And the Lord said to Moses." And then, "that he gave his only son," then, "make a fiery serpent" and sat "on a pole," similar to sending a son. And then it says, "that whoever believes in him," and "everyone who is bitten, when he sees it," shall "not perish, but have eternal life." "Shall live." So, I don't know, those two things just seem to really go kind of hand in hand a little bit. So just. There's no.
I don't know, there's no mistakes, obviously, in the Bible. And it's just, it's. It's one of those things where just like. Yeah, those two really do match pretty well together once you put them up against each other.
Interesting.
Yeah, like I said that the more you research it, the more life you find in it. I found myself. I was doing my research and I just found myself kind of every once in a while, stopping, going, what? This is so amazing.
Right?
God, you are so good. I just love you so much. Oh, wait, I'm supposed to be studying. And then I studied. Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. I. I'm just in awe, truly, of God and who he is. And something I learned recently is there's 64,000 cross references in the Bible. 64,000. Then there's prophecies, and then there's things like this where you see the symbolism of Jesus taking on a symbol that they understood in the Old Testament to fulfill, you know, what was happening then. And it's just. I'm just in awe. I really am. I'm just in awe of God and the promises and just seeing through this, what it means in my own life. And I. I just love Jesus. That's my opening thoughts.
That's cool.
I think when you guys gave us the word lifted, my original thought went to, like, my understanding of, like, lifting up Jesus has always kind of been like, we glorify him or we just say praises to him and things like that. And I don't think that that's totally wrong. I just don't think it's a full, complete picture of what it is for Jesus to be lifted up with us. And as I got to studying more in this, I think that where my thoughts kind of landed is like, Jesus being lifted up is also when he is, like, lifted up on the cross is when he's fully surrendered to God and actually laying down his life. And the juxtaposition of, like, that imagery there that he had to fully lay down his life in order to be fully lifted up by God and what that means for our salvation and for us to be reunited with God. That's where my thoughts and my study really took me on this word.
Yeah.
Well, and like, you're saying, like, the, the paradox. How many things are paradoxical in the Bible, and it's crazy, like you were saying how the, him to be lifted is the same. What, how do you say it again? It's, it's.
It says that the term is used to convey the paradox of Christ's humiliation.
Yeah, humiliation. Yeah. And it's like, it's like the paradoxes that we have in Christianity is, you know, in order to live, you must die.
Yeah.
And it's just like, I love it. How so much of it is just like the way that we think things operate and should go is usually it's like, no, we. We don't have it exactly right. It's usually just completely flipped on its head.
Yeah, I love that too. Because in this story, they expected Jesus the Messiah to come and to take over and to become king on a throne and to kick out the Romans, when in fact Jesus will do that. But he meant in this time, right, to come in a very different way than they perceived and to fulfill the answer for sin first.
Yeah, there's an amazing number of parallels here between those two. And it just seems to be just so much there. The more you read it, it's like. And look at concordances or commentaries on it. There's just a lot there. Jesus starts out in that verse there saying, no one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven.
And we kind of have a common phrase today like "died and went to heaven" or "somebody died and went to heaven." Like, we kind of think—that's a fairly new concept.
It's post-Jesus basically, that we have that understanding. Prior to that, if you like, look in The Psalms, Psalm 16:10, out of The Living Bible, "For you will not leave me among the dead; you will not allow your beloved one to rot in the grave."
Psalm 49:15, The Living Bible, "But as for me, God will redeem my soul from the power of death, for he will receive me."
These are future-looking, looking to the future, like prophetic. But at the time, it was kind of understood that once you're dead, you don't ascend into heaven, you're buried into the earth. That was the Old Testament understanding. And even Jesus confirms that, "No one has ascended into heaven," yet except for him who came from heaven, right?
So that's a, that's, that's amazing there.
And speaking of that, well, let's, take a look at, at the account there in Numbers. Here in Numbers 21 it talks about this account of Moses and the serpent there. Out of the ESV, Numbers 21, starting in verse 4,
"From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses, 'Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.' Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, 'We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.' So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, 'Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.' So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live."
It's interesting. Later on, in Revelation when Jesus appears, it says in Revelation, chapter 1, verse 15,
"his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters."
This imagery is actually used. The bronze is actually used to describe Jesus even in the book of Revelation, which is kind of interesting there.
That was really cool.
But the people were basically complaining to God.
No.
That doesn't sound like them.
Just rescued them out of the land of Egypt as slaves, right?
He was providing for them and they, it said impatience was there. And they. They actually called the food that he was giving them worthless. Yeah, this provision is worthless.
Well, I think it's kind of funny in that particular spot.
Let's see, what was it? Let's see.
"'Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.'"
First of all, kind of like a Dumb and Dumber bit where it's like, we have no food, our pets' heads are falling off. But then it's like. But then they make mention of food twice, which I think is kind of funny. So, it's like, we have no food and we loathe this worthless food. It's like, yeah, we heard you the first time. But to your earlier point, I just. He just got them out of Egypt. So, there was that. And then just before verse four, where they, you know, start talking about this particular account, it says that they asked the Lord to give the Canaanites over to them, and he did. So, the Lord just gave the Canaanites over to the Israelites. And then it says they, from Mount Hor, they set out by way of the Red Sea. So, they're walking along the Red Sea that not too long ago was just parted.
Yeah.
So, it's like, how much more like, reminder of, like, what I will do and what I can do and have done for you do you need? But they wouldn't recognize it. And I think that's kind of where my mind went to, is like, how often has God proved himself exactly who he says that he is in our own lives? And we're like, yeah, but now.
Yeah.
But. Or we don't even remember what he's done.
That was yesterday.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't even remember.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah. And Paul in 1 Corinthians, chapter 10 actually mentions that also, saying, this is a reminder for us today, this story is still relevant to us today. He says,
"We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."
So, it's still relevant today, Paul even references to that. It's amazing how it's in the gospels, Paul talks about it. It's a very relevant story. So, yeah, there is a lesson there to not despise the provision of the Lord it would seem there.
Right.
It was important to me to dig more into that because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And it's so easy to read the Old Testament and see this, like, God sent the snakes to kill people. Okay. They were complaining. But really what was happening here is that they had forgotten all that, right? They had started to look and instead of looking to theirselves in the sin that they had committed, and they were there because of their own sin, they started to put it on Moses and God. And in that, what would have happened if God had allowed that to continue? They could have overthrown Moses, they could have dispersed among the nations and anything could happen. The story would be very, very different than it is today. So, God had to take extreme action to step in and say, let's get readjusted and how much he does that in our own life, right? Where he brings correction to us and in the moment doesn't feel good. And yet he also brings redemption through it, right? He sent this fiery snakes and he sent the bronze snake. And bronze is the snake. Bronze is judgment, right? Because it's made in the fire. And so, it had to be a bronze snake for them to find judgment for their sin and forgiveness.
Even as you're saying that, I wonder now, like looking, they said, I mean, they forgot many things that God had just done for them. And then they realize they did it again. So, they go to Moses and say, "'We have sinned...we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.'" And he didn't actually take away the serpents from them, he just provided the bronze one so that whoever looked at them would be healed and saved. And I wonder if that was almost God's way of, like, let this be a reminder to you now that like so many times I've delivered you. How about I don't take away the serpents, but instead I give you provision for how to be healed so that you don't continue to walk in that foolishness, I guess. But yeah.
And that's how it looks today in today's world. Like with all the sin and the death and everything like that. God doesn't just undo it all. He doesn't just, just take it away. God just take it all away, take all the bad stuff. And it's like, no, in the same way that he didn't just take away the snakes in the desert, but he had the snake on a pole to be looked to. In the same way, God doesn't make all the bad in this world just disappear. He provides Jesus, though, for us to look to for salvation.
Matthew Henry in his commentary says, "The people prayed that God would take away the serpents from them, but God saw fit not to do this: for he gives effectual relief in the best way, though not in our way." And in both ways, the solution was in the image of the problem.
The snake was that which was causing the death. Jesus appeared in the form of sinful man, right?
Right.
It says in John. Even in like John 9:24, they, the people thought generally. Generally. That's not the word. Genuinely thought.
Nailed it.
Maybe generally too.
They thought that Jesus was a sinner.
Drunk and hang out with.
He actually had that image. So well, he was fooling. That's not the right word. Poor choice of words today.
Words are important.
Words are important.
Jesus was so in the likeness of that which he was coming to save—sinful man—the vast majority of the Pharisees thought he was actually a sinful man.
Right.
It says, "'Give glory to God,'" in John 9:24. "'We know that this man is a sinner.'" He just healed the blind man.
Right.
And they're telling him Jesus is a sinner. Give glory to God for your miracle. Anyway.
Yeah. And on the cross, which is kind of a trip too, is not just he was man, but he became sin. And that's like a whole 'nother, like layer of him taking our place. And, and you know, the image of the serpent on the rod. It's crazy. He's. Yeah, he became sin. Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you say sermon on the rod?
Serpent.
Serpent. I heard sermon. I would say, what's that sermon?
It was, that was right after the mount. Yeah.
Do you guys know what a fiery serpent is? Like, what makes it? Why?
I would guess maybe its bite.
Okay.
Probably.
Yeah.
Be like fire.
Okay. Because I'm picturing actual serpents on.
Breathing fire.
Like a weird video game or something.
One of the commentaries said they either looked red or they were acting very, in a rage.
Or the bite actually caused people to be so thirsty. Like, so the people are actually complaining about no water. They actually get bit by a serpent that causes them to get even, like a fever and get even more thirsty. So.
That would make sense because they died, right? Yeah, it would have to be more.
Yeah. Like, fire is arguably the opposite of water. You know, so.
Because honestly, with the Bible, you never know. It could be serpents on fire.
Right?
But apparently it's not.
God can do what he wants.
He can do what he wants.
Well, there's another word to look at also, and it's that, the word used about the pole, the, put the serpent on the pole. And in the same way Jesus says the Son of Man must be lifted up. Well, as what? As, on a pole, right? On a cross.
The word used there is in Strong's Lexicon, it says, "Banner, standard, ensign, signal." These are all different ways to interpret that word there.
And in Isaiah chapter 11, verse 10, it says, out of the ESV,
"In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious."
So, there's this prophecy about Jesus actually being a banner, a signal, like something to look to. Just like Jesus is saying he's on, visible for the world to see and for the nations, according to Isaiah there.
"In ancient Israelite culture, banners were significant in both military and religious contexts. They were used to organize tribes during travel and battle, serving as a point of reference and unity. Banners also held religious significance, symbolizing God's protection and guidance. The concept of a—"
and the word is nes, n-e-s—
"as a divine sign is rooted in the belief that God actively participates in the lives of His people, providing direction and assurance."
So that's all kind of in that word "banner" too.
Can you imagine, like, for the people that knew all of the, what's now Old Testament scripture, like when it clicked, like, this is what's happening, like how much of a flood of like, whoa. I mean, that would be so wild to know what all the Old Testament scripture said. And then all the pieces start falling into place. I mean, that's obviously, no wonder why the church exploded when it did. But that would be just incredible for that type of a download and it's like it all comes together at that moment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had that thought. I wondered how many people saw Jesus on the cross and correlated it to the serpent.
I think crucifixion was such a norm, sadly in that day, that maybe it took a while and he did tell Nicodemus about it.
So yeah.
Likely told others.
Yeah.
Yeah, there. It was there for those who wanted to believe it and a lot of people just probably did not, but hopefully.
Well, and what's interesting, I guess going back to the Numbers account is you would assume that there were people that got bit and they're like, I'm not going to look at that or I don't believe that that's actually a thing. And they died.
Yeah.
I mean it's for whoever would look on it. That doesn't say everybody did.
Good point.
And so, the same thing today is you have the choice not to look at what is actually truth. And that's the free will that we're given. You can die and live a life apart from God if you choose.
Yeah. But I mean there's someone that we can look to to save our souls from. I mean the, the comparison was made that in the Numbers account it saved the body and Jesus saves the soul. And so, it's another parallel to there also. Yeah.
And probably for the same reason, right? It probably, people were so bitter that they were bitten and they're in pain and whatever that looked like that they were like, I'm not going to look at, look at this thing.
Right. Yeah. Grumbling.
And they're still living in that old mindset.
Right? How, same way today, right? People are so bitter they don't want to look at Jesus.
Or if they are clinging to their initial request, pray that God take away the serpents.
Right. Yeah.
And the answer is no. But I'm gonna put a snake on a pole for you to look to and that's how you'll get your healing. And if they're like, well I'd rather do it this other way.
My way.
Or I'm gonna wait for it to just all get better.
Well, and that is at least what I hear the most of whenever there's discussion about like frustration with God is that why would God allow something bad to happen? And the person has a really tough time getting past the fact that there are bad things that happen, that happens in this life, and the resentment that can build as a result of that. It's like, yeah, but we're not talking just our body's in danger here. We're talking about our souls. And so, it is really an interesting. I hadn't thought about what you said earlier about just the parallel of that being the case back in Numbers also where, I lost my train of thought now. So, yeah.
I was following.
Just like that.
I'm gonna jump on what you just said. And, you know, when we can get past the pain in the world, that there is pain in the world because of our free will, we find a God who's right there to meet us right where we're at. And there's so much comfort in that, and there's so much, that peace that surpasses all understanding and such an amazing gift available to us.
Well, I think in the end, like, what's really good for us is to remember God, and what's really not good for us is to forget God. So even living with that, like, there is pain. But I mean, he allowed. I mean, he allowed the serpents to stay, I think, so that they could be redirected to that bronze serpent. Because if, I think we kind of already touched on this, but, like, if the serpents weren't, they would forget God again. They would just. We just have this proclivity, forget who God is. And it's ironic that he uses the pain to redirect us toward himself, which is our ultimate good. It's not like, it's not a selfish thing of like, well, they better not forget me. It's for our own benefit that we continue to remember who he is and look to him to save us.
Yeah. And it's the trials in our own lives, right? Where we're sitting there going, "When? Why? Why can't you just take the trial away from me?" And God's like, actually just want to bring you through it because there's so much to learn out of it. There's so much faith to come out of it. And actually, that reminds me, with the serpent on the rod, you know, they couldn't do anything to save themselves. They couldn't do anything to stop it. They couldn't do anything to change it. It was God that brought that answer. And just like Jesus is the answer, we can't do anything to save our souls.
Yeah.
Right.
Jesus is the only answer for that. And such a beautiful, beautiful thing that we just have to literally lift our eyes up to Jesus.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it was. It's as easy today as it was back then. Is that all they had to do is look.
Right.
All we have to do is accept. Yeah, that's super simple.
Yeah, that's good.
It's interesting. Even though the snake was in the Old Testament, there, it's mentioned again in 2 Kings. In 2 Kings, chapter 18, it says, Hezekiah, King of Judah, it says in verse four,
"He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan)."
They kept. They created, like, an idol out of it.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
So, like, it served a purpose, but then later, it. It was a symbol for a set time, right? Or had a purpose for a time. And then that time came and went. There's nobody dying of the snake bites anymore, right?
Right.
And yet they were still, I don't know, pilgrimaging or whatever.
Well, then it became like. Yeah. An idol to where it's like, well, so that it doesn't come back. Let's be sure that we appease the snake god or whatever it is that they, that they may have made it out to be. Wow. That's. So, then this new king comes in. He's like, this is done. Like, we're done with this. Like, this is. This is insanity. What we've allowed herself to go to. But isn't it interesting as humans, how we have such a propensity to worship something? And it's like, we want something we can see.
Yeah.
And I've heard that, that frustration also, where it's like, but I can't see God. And it'd be a lot easier if I could see God. Like, I can see somebody else or something else. And that's a fair. I mean, yeah, it's. It's like that's. It's tough to. That's where faith comes in, obviously. But we do want. We want something we can see. We want something that we can hold and touch and we can give an offering to. But like we said in an earlier one, earlier podcast, those idols, they don't give back to you. They don't hear you. They don't actually receive your prayers or your offerings. Yeah. It only takes you farther away from God.
Yeah. Which is what set the Israelites apart, the Jewish people apart, right? Is that they don't have anything to look at and say, "There's my God." Whereas Egyptians, everybody had a little idol you could look at. To this day, religions have those, right? Where you go and worship something.
Right. Well, and 400 years of being in Egypt and being exposed to their way of life and culture and religion, that would be a tough thing to shake, probably, also, which I think that that can speak to our lives also. The things that we come out of or that we have to shake. Sometimes it's really easy to go back to where we were, and forget where God is taking us.
Yeah. Well. And I think what's interesting about this is that that original bronze serpent was provision from God originally. And so it just got to a point where it was being misused as an idol instead of the Lord. And if we. I think that we can all do, like, an evaluation of our own lives and think about certain things that maybe God provided for us in a season and we've made it something that it shouldn't be. And it could be, like, it could be like, a job or a relationship or like. Like a church, like a ministry opportunity or something like that. I think there's plenty of opportunity for us to, like, take something that God has intended for a good thing and then turn it into something that he didn't intend it to be.
Yeah.
I had a friend who was asking God what's in my house that has become an idol that I need to get rid of? And he took her to the garage and said, okay, there's a lot of boxes. What am I looking for? And he literally said, okay, top row down, six. Said, I took her to the bottom row to this box that's buried. She pulls it out, starts looking through it, and it's like, what am I looking for? Finds this ring. And she had bought this ring for herself. And there's nothing wrong with the ring. It was just something she'd given herself. But there was so much pride in why she bought it for herself and why she was holding on to it. He's like, you. You put so much stock in this and not in me. Let's give that to someone else. So it can be something that simple.
Originally a good thing, but.
Yeah.
Wrong motivation.
Yeah. Wrong way or something. Yeah.
Or like the concept of, you know, we ask God for things and he doesn't give us what we want. And sometimes I'm sure God's like, well, I know exactly what you'll do with that, and you'll make that way bigger than it needs to be. So, trust me, it's better that you don't have this.
Right.
Yeah.
Or we do it our own, in our own strength, and we end up making enemies out of our sons.
Well, here, here's another thought.
It goes back to what we were talking about before. Like why did, why did God tell Moses to make a symbol of the same thing that was sent as a punishment? And I think we already kind of touched on this before, so maybe there's not much else to this. But it's interesting that the cross is a symbol of punishment also. And that's something that we'll wear around our necks and jewelry and stuff like that. But it's just interesting that there's, I guess it's just another parallel that it's, a symbol of punishment was the thing that the people had to look to. And the cross is a symbol of punishment that we look to also. So, I think that that's just another interesting parallel between those two.
Yeah, I just had a quick thought, sorry.
Yeah. No, go for it.
Just the thought that, you know, when we look at Jesus on the cross, there comes with faith, right? Faith and the salvation that he offers. And I think in the same vein, when they looked at the serpent, it didn't just come with a fail-safe. You just look at it and you're good. There's faith behind that, that God would provide that healing for them.
Yeah. And this Matthew Henry commentary, he actually compares the two side by side, kind of like you were doing earlier, comparing side by side.
It says that the snake, "It was a very unlikely method of cure." And then the cross, "so our salvation by the death of Christ is to the Jews a stumbling-block and to the Greeks foolishness." That's how I think it's referred to later in the New Testament there. And then again, "It was Moses that lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and Moses wrote of him," it says in, "John 5:4-6. Christ was lifted up by the rulers of the Jews, who were the successors of Moses."
It goes on to compare, "That which cured was shaped in the likeness of that which wounded. So Christ, though perfectly free from sin himself, yet was made in the likeness of sinful flesh," as Romans 8:3 says.
"So like that it was taken for granted that this man was a sinner," like I mentioned in John 9:24.
One more comparison. "The brazen serpent was lifted up; so was Christ. He was lifted up on the cross," as John 12:33-34 says, "for his was made a spectacle to the world."
Some people also say that there's a symbol there of Christ triumphing over Satan, who was also portrayed as a serpent in the book of Genesis. So, somehow even the created being that became the most cunning, I suppose is how they describe it there in Genesis. God actually can use that image, that very image to heal in the Old Testament. Interesting.
Yeah, well, and I don't know if the people in general, the Israelites would have known this particular account of Aaron and Moses and Pharaoh, but it—and maybe there's no connection to this with this particular account, I'm not sure. But just as Pharaoh's, his guys, his wise men.
The wise guys. Forget about it.
That they threw down their rods and it became serpents. And then, and then Aaron put down his rod and it ate the other two serpents. And it's almost like to me anyways, reading the account of Numbers, it's kind of like what God puts into place is going to be bigger than anything that is painful or been manufactured by the enemy or Satan. And we can always look at what God creates as the thing that will devour that which is not of him, easily.
I was recently listening to a pastor and he was taking the parallel of all the details of Jesus on the cross and how it met all the details of the original sin with Adam and Eve and met every single one of those details to bring redemption to them. And I'm thinking about how God created the snakes. He created the serpents, right? It was Satan who took that serpent and used it. And to us, I think we look at serpents and think of them as bad because he's the ancient serpent of old. But in the day of these people, you know, then in Egypt and what serpents were actually lifted up as healing and they were seen as healing and they were seen as good. You know, Jesus redeemed all these other things. He also redeemed creation in that moment, right? When he brought back creation to what the enemy meant for evil, he brought it to good.
Yeah. One of the places that like I went with, like when I was studying was like in that same thought of what the enemy planned for destruction, God planned for good. And if, if Christ being lifted up on the cross is him becoming sin for us, then so we can be reconciled to God. It's like in this moment, like that, like that was the thing that God came to do. And so, with. And I actually it was another pastor that I heard like on a sermon kind of talking about on the same, along the same line. But he said, you know, like, him healing was good, preaching was good, all the things that he did was good. But the thing he came to do was in that moment when he laid down his life on the cross and what looked to like his disciples and everyone around was that was a moment that everything was worthless because it looked like he was just dying. But in actuality, it was him fulfilling the thing that he came to do and when in actuality he was doing the most. Like when he was truly being lifted up was when he was, you know, when it looked like the complete opposite of that, like those, you know, paradoxes that we've been talking about, but. That was beautiful, you know.
Jesus is so cool.
He's so cool.
Well, any closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of lifted?
Yeah, I think it's just, it's recognizing who Jesus is and what he did on the cross. And the account in John, it goes back to the account in Numbers because it's, remember what happened. I mean, he's talking to Nicodemus during this conversation. And so, it's for Nicodemus' good to be reminded, but it's for our good to then to be able to see the entire picture. Because obviously Nicodemus wouldn't have known that Jesus died or was going to die, but he was letting Nicodemus know this is what's coming. But we have the benefit and the luxury of seeing it in the totality. And so just being able to look at, you know, what Christ did on the cross, it's not to save our bodies, it's to save our souls. And so that's something we can be very grateful for.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I did a word search of "lifted up" and I found it really interesting that so many, so many Scriptures had lifted up around lifting up your eyes, your voices, your hands and your face to God. And I also found this scripture in Isaiah 45:22, it says,
“'Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.'"
So, I think that lifted up is not just Jesus on the cross, but also his ascension later too, as we talked about earlier, ascending into heaven. You know, he's lifted up those two ways and also lifted up in that where he humbled himself, right? To be lifted up. Yeah. So many, so much of lifting up, really. So much, so much wealth in Scripture here about this and it's beautiful.
Yeah.
Yeah. I guess my closing thought would be like, if I'm going to go along with the same line of thought that when Jesus was lifted up, it was really his, like, ultimate surrender is, are there parallels to that in my life too? When I'm lifting the Lord up, what am I laying down? Or what am I laying down in order to lift the Lord up? So, just that in a nutshell.
Yeah. In John chapter 12, 32 and 33 out of the ESV, it says,
"'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.' He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die."
And so, to the original hearers, they understood that to be a crucifixion, I believe. But they could not yet have probably anticipated how that could have been a glorification.
Right.
Like an exaltation. So, it. A lot of that. A lot of those things took time, I think, for people to really understand—some of them—to understand, like we were saying, they looked back upon his words later and realized what he was saying. And so that. That's interesting there, how he will draw all people to himself.
Yeah. How many people during that time were glorified through crucifixion?
Right.
I mean, that's like everybody who was crucified was like. That was the worst of the worst is to get crucified by the Romans. So, yeah, that'd be completely oxymoronical.
And the point was kind of shame. Like, it was like the most shameful way to die.
And painful.
Yeah.
It was to dissuade people from doing similar activities.
What they were accused of and found guilty of. Yeah.
Right. And to show the power of Rome, I suppose.
Yeah.
But, yeah, he draws all people to himself upon that act there. So. And it is interesting. We looked at this as kind of a precursor to the next verse, John 3:16, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.
And there's another verse, even though he—I believe it's when he's talking about Lazarus. Even though the person dies, yet will live. So, like, death is the thing that we would arguably, you know, in looking at that Old Testament account, take the death away.
Oh, right.
You know, but God says, no.
Right.
Even though you die.
Yeah.
You will have life.
So take the fiery serpents away. You know, take the death away. No, you're still. There's still die. There's still death in this life.
Right.
In, at this time.
Yet those who believe will live. And that's the promise of looking to him, looking to Jesus and his work on the cross. That paradox of basically turning humiliation into exaltation. That's what he accomplished there in being lifted up from the earth there, which is really amazing.
Yeah. And it doesn't just leave us in our pain either. I mean, back to the Lazarus account. I mean, the Scripture that says, "Jesus wept." I mean, he. He was in it with them, and so he's in it with us. So, I mean, that's like one more step that he's not going to take the pain away, doesn't take death away, but that doesn't mean that he's just up there looking at us. He's in it with us also. Which, that's a really important thing to keep in mind too.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think with that, you know, everything we go through, he's gone through. And it's so. It's such a beautiful surrender to understand that. That in the pain that you're walking through, Jesus truly gets it as fully man and fully God. I love that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
One more thought here is in that Revelation, chapter 1 and verse beginning in verse 17 and then 18,
"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, 'Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.'"
This is that imagery where his feet were like bronze. This is the appearance of Jesus in the book of Revelation here. And he refers to that, to dying on the cross, having died, and is alive forevermore. So, a lot of. A lot of connections there. A lot of. It's all intertwined. It's really amazing to find the books all the way from Numbers and Kings, and it's in Paul's writings, it's in Revelation, it's in the Gospels. All this is all connected there. So, it's really amazing.
It's really amazing.
Well, once again, great discussion, everybody. Thank you for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care, everybody.
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