Episode Transcript
Jetty Island, a two-mile long, man-made island located just off the waterfront in Everett, Washington, was a summer highlight growing up. In the early 2000s, there were plenty of places to avoid in Everett, but Jetty Island wasn't one of them. Every year between July 5th and Labor Day, Everett's only oasis was open to all. It may not have been the Hawaiian Islands, but for three glorious months we could pretend we were something we weren't. We were like paupers in princes' clothing. Like Quasimodo in a masquerade ball. No longer just so-so, we were hi-so. That's high society for the uninitiated. And a $3, 5-minute ferry ride was the only price of admission.
In 2004, after a long day of janitoring, my buddy and I concocted a half-baked idea. Ironically, one that would leave us stranded not on the island, but on a remote part of the mainland. The plan was simple. One, ride the ferry to the jetty and drop off our backpacks. Two, wait for the tide to go out and cross over to the mainland from the north side of the island. Three, walk four miles back to the ferry starting point. And four, take the ferry again to the island to retrieve our backpacks. It was our summer adventure. We were like Lewis and Clark, Sam and Frodo, Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay. Fittingly, the only real difference between "Everett" and "Everest" is a dumb "s." Like my one and only nightclub experience, leaving was easy.
In a matter of minutes, we were past the waist-deep water and on mainland. Our journey back to the ferry had begun. Mordor was on the horizon. But little did we know that something unexpected would happen. Which is strange considering the exhaustive depth of our preparation. Little did we know that one does not simply walk back to the ferry. And I use the word walk generously. I'm not exactly sure what to call the particular piece of land we traversed. Between the sound and an endless wall of sticker bushes, it was a shoreline in the technical sense, where land and water formed its union. But the land side of the relationship obviously stopped trying a long time ago. And it wasn't so much the shore's quicksand qualities that made it difficult, though that didn't help. But rather, the massive amounts of oil, the strange odor, and loose metal parts that scraped our legs with each sinking step. It was our Dead Marshes, our Bog of Eternal Stench. If Artax died in this Swamp of Sadness, not even the recreation of Fantasia could have brought him back. I think that it was at the point that we were crawling on all fours through Satan's cesspool in an unsuccessful attempt to create buoyancy, that we realized mistakes were made. It was a low point in every sense of the word. I felt like Jack from Lost yelling to Kate, "We have to go back." But by the time we wised up, relativity at its best, and returned to the point of entry, we realized that the tide had come in and our biggest challenge was still ahead.
Back in 1998, Semisonic's song "Closing Time" gave us a line that made us stop and think. "Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end." This was certainly the case concerning Jesus and John the Baptist and their respective ministries. "He must increase, but I must decrease," John famously said. Bishop J.C. Ryle writes that John 3:22-36 is of particular importance because it is believed by many to be John the Baptist's final testimony concerning Jesus.
This is significant because John's ministry served one primary purpose: to prepare the way for Jesus. And that ministry and purpose was coming to an end. Perhaps it's reasonable, then, to suggest that John's final words in his final testimony also deserves a closer look. John 3:36 reads, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
It's like John's that professor at the end of a lecture who says, "if you take away just one thing from this entire class, make sure you know this."
John's entire ministry was summed up in one unwavering, unfiltered, black and white sentence. Truth was his end; bluntness was his means. John would have never made it as a confectioner or a pharmacist. So, let's be sure we're getting these last words right, particularly the word "wrath."
Most of us have grown to understand that the word "wrath" means vengeance and anger, which, to our credit, it does. But wrath is also defined as retributory punishment for an offense or a crime, divine chastisement, a definition theologian James Fowler would contend falls more in line with God's character. Fowler writes,
"Wrath of God is not irrational, selfish passion of personal pique and malicious vindictiveness. It is the settled unacceptance and intolerance of evil that is contrary to the character of God."
Or, as King David said in the Psalms,
"The Lord is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love."
But can the same God who is perfect in love also express wrath? The answer is a resounding yes, beautifully explained in arguably the most recognized passage of Scripture.
"'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.'"
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the word "gave" has lost its meaning to some degree. Because we're not talking about a neatly wrapped birthday present. We're talking about someone willingly taking our place on death row and the judge seeing it as acceptable. To paraphrase, God loves us so much, he poured out his wrath on himself in the person of his Son, Jesus, instead of on you and me.
The cross settled the matter of sin, and by consequence God's wrath, once and for all. And yet, so many of us are perfectly content to accept a punishment that's already been received. The cell door is open, yet we choose to remain in prison. We eat our last meal and give our last words not out of duress or compulsion, but out of pride, arrogance, or some other hindrance. We fasten ourselves to the electric chair and accept a punishment that, though rightfully ours to take, has already been dealt. Because the guilt of sin, and by consequence the wrath of God, remains on anyone who does not obey Jesus, who does not believe in Jesus. All one needs to do is accept that which has already been given.
Okay, back to my story.
Standing there on hell's shore, not more than 50 yards of water separated us from the clean, smooth sand of Jetty Island. But it might as well have been miles. We were like the rich ruler in Hades looking at Abraham and Lazarus from across the chasm. And if I listened closely, I could almost hear Abraham's words shouting over the noise of our stupidity: You shall not pass. Paraphrasing, of course.
But thankfully, unlike the rich ruler, relief and rescue were still on the table. Seemingly from out of nowhere, three people on jet skis raced down the river and spotted our waving hands. It wasn't exactly a walking on water kind of miracle, but in my world, this free ride back to the jetty was pretty close.
I heard it said that there's only one time Houdini couldn't escape from behind a cell door. And it wasn't because the lock was too complicated. Rather, the reason he couldn't escape was because the door was never locked in the first place.
The door to our prison cell is unlocked and the door is wide open. The price of sin has already been paid. We don't need to remain in our sin, and the wrath of God doesn't need to remain on us. Like a free ride out of Beelzebub's bathroom, the work's already been done. All we need to do is accept and believe.
Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
My name is Chris, your host for another episode. We're joined once again, of course, with psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll. And once again in the studio, Licensed Mental Health Counselor Christina Konrad, Christian Life Coach Maxine Toh, and Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson. Welcome, everybody.
Good to be here.
We are looking in the book of John once again. We are making our way through the book and we are at chapter 3. And our portion of Scripture today is verses 31-36. And we're reading out of the ESV.
"He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
We're looking today more closely at the word "remains" and its context as far as wrath goes, the wrath of God.
Dr. Jon, you had an opening blog on the topic. We'll just open it up around the room.
Right. Yeah. So, the whole idea of remain and the wrath of God will remain on someone who has not accepted the free gift of salvation, I think is just really a thing that just kind of sat with me for a while. And the question is certainly and can be, "what would compel us to remain in sin?" And then, as well, that would be then under the wrath of God. And I think that it comes with a heavy price tag, obviously, to remain in sin because the wrath of God will remain in us. And as Romans 6:23 says,
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
And so, yeah. So, what would compel us to remain in sin? And so, there was, Russell Brand a while back on one of his podcasts was talking about how there is, he's going back to the Ten Commandments. And one of the Ten Commandments being, you shall have no other god before me. And so, his kind of conclusion, I think this is even towards the end of his journey of figuring out if he's going to follow Christ or not. It's like, so as humans, we're, we have this part of being a human is we will worship something. That's just part of our created being is we're compelled to worship something. And so, that's kind of one bit. And then Jordan Peterson, in his book 12 Rules for Life, is quoted as saying,
"There are no atheists. There are only people who know, and don’t know, what God they serve."
And so again, this idea that there's something at the top of the hierarchy. We're serving something, and that could be the thing that compels us to stay in sin is because some people don't even realize or recognize or acknowledge that the God that they're serving is actually leading them farther away and not closer to eternal life.
So, and there's also a lot of, so I used some of, some imagery about being captive and being in prison. And, and I think, I mean, there's a lot of scripture that talks about, like, we are free, like Christ frees us from sin. We were captive. But then there's a section in Romans that I think is really interesting, Romans 6:16-23, which reads,
"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Pastor David Jeremiah writes in response to this Scripture,
"Believers should present themselves as slaves to righteousness with the same abandon as they willfully gave themselves to sin in the past. Yielding themselves to righteousness will have the same exponential effect, only they will become more holy rather than more sinful."
So, it just goes back to, we're going to serve something. There's going to be something that is at that highest peak. And the question is, what are you, "What are we serving?" And I think that that's kind of where things kind of landed with me is kind of opening thought.
Yeah, just to piggyback off of that, I think where I land is what compels us to remain in sin is we have an issue of, like, lordship. And I think a lot of people think they might be doing the right thing. But when you actually strip it down, like, we, even when we're serving God and thinking we're doing the right things, we may still be living in our own will or our own priorities. And it's a question of, like, "Who is my Lord?" And a lot of us, even after we accept Christ, I believe we have a hard time surrendering lordship. We want to be in control. I know that was a struggle for me, can be sometimes a struggle for me still. I like to be in control. And yeah, I think it just, it boils down to surrender and choosing to let go of our own will and trying our best to live in his will, which is hard.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
All right. Next around the room. Maxine, opening thoughts.
Yeah, I love, Chris, what you talked about in your blog about the wrath of God and really just talking about how, and recognizing that some people can have a difficult time reconciling the idea of a good God with a God who has to give out punishment. But that is actually the definition of a just God. And what I love about what this shows about God is he's not only good and he's not only just, but he's merciful. And the definition of merciful is often said as when we do not receive something that we do deserve. And God found a way to do that by giving us Jesus as the sacrifice to take our place for what we deserved. And so, I just think that's such a beautiful picture of who God is, because he could have just let us say, you guys sinned, you messed up, deal with the consequences. But he loved us so much that he was willing to say, how can we find another way to stay in relationship? And so, yeah, I think it's just a beautiful idea that he's good. He's just. And he's also merciful.
Yeah. I think that I was kind of going the same, along the same lines as Maxine, and I got stuck on that, just the concept of wrath and how you defined it in your blog and that we tend to define it as like a vengeful anger, which isn't necessarily untrue, but, I forget who wrote it, but it's more of a retributory, retributory. How do you say that?
Retributory.
Retributory punishment for an offense or a crime. It's like a divine chastisement. And it just, it kind of had me thinking that, I mean, how much more palpable, then I guess, is the love of God, that even in his wrath he still chose to save us from that wrath that would remain on us. And that's just kind of where I've been landing with this blog. Yeah.
Yeah. And I guess one of the things that kind of stands out to me is, and the reason why it stands out to me, the blog, is because you reworded it. I believe when I ran it by you and.
I reworded it?
Yeah.
Kind of. Kind of. You. Yeah. Kind of.
Rephrased it?
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of rephrased it.
Like, just example of, you just did that. Case in point.
I thought you said rewarded.
That's what I heard.
Good Doctor Jon.
Here's a treat. No.
Good blog. Good blog.
You know how you, like, reward me for when I do a good job? Super weird.
Yeah. When you rephrased it, the thing that. It. Because it was. God poured out his wrath on himself in the form of Jesus.
Yeah.
And I think that's an incredible thing to keep in mind because it's like he hurt himself by doing what he had to do to save us. And so, wrath, yeah, it's not a. We typically look at it as like a, like the wrath of God remains on us. But no, he already poured out the wrath on himself in the form of Jesus, which is just. It's kind of a, just a, yeah, kind of a trippy thing to think about.
There's a commentary by. Okay. Ellicott's Commentary for English readers. There's a commentary on this portion here. It says,
"The wrath of God abideth," now, this is kind of old, so it's got some old language, but think like 1800s or something like that.
"The wrath of God abideth on him."
Okay.
"Once only in the four Gospels does this term, so full of tremendous meaning, meet us, and that in the Gospel of fullest love, and in a context which speaks of the Father’s love to the Son, and of eternal life, which is the portion of all who believe on the Son. It must be so. This wrath (comp. Romans 2:8; Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; Revelation 19:15) is not the fierceness of passion, nor is it the expression of fixed hatred. It is the necessary aspect of love and holiness toward those who reject love, and wilfully sin. It is not here spoken of as coming upon them, or as passing from them. It abideth, ever has and ever must; for the wrath of love must abide on hatred, the wrath of holiness must abide on sin. But none need hate, and none need live in wilful sin. 'He that believeth'—how vast the love and bright the hope of the all-including words—'hath eternal life'! (Comp. Note on John 6:56.)"
So, my take from that is that God being all good, someone's only good if they're against, you know, that which is evil, right? It'd be like if somebody was not coming down on the wrongdoers, we would call that person complicit, right? And that person's kind of not dealing with the wrongdoing. And I know in pop culture there's sort of this fascination with like the, what do you call it, the anti-hero or something, like, he's a good guy, but he's got a little bit of bad, or bad guy's got a little bit of good. You know, that's not really how the Bible outlines reality.
God is good. And in all reality, he really transcends what our understanding of good is like. He's like the perfect one. And so, anything that doesn't meet up to the standard, he's got to deal with. So that's the grace that's there is like, will we take the grace offered to us through Jesus and in that way be free of the wrath which would otherwise abide on us for not believing? Right?
Yeah, yeah. It's just logical. It's just logic. What the scenario is that we're set up with. And the wrath will remain. Yeah. If we don't allow. The wrath will remain if we don't accept the free gift of salvation and the price is already paid. And yeah, it's like, it's very one plus one equals two in God's economy.
And that kind of reminded me of Pastor David Jeremiah. He made a comment about, like, when God hardened Pharaoh's heart. One of his thoughts about that was it was a natural consequence.
Yeah.
It's as if you leave, the difference between clay and wax in the sun, one will harden, one will melt. And so, earlier in that, in that particular passage of Scripture, Pharaoh had hardened his own heart. But then, yeah, just being in the presence of God, one's heart will harden and one heart will melt. That's kind of David Jeremiah's takeaway on that. And I just think there's so many logical things that are a part of the kingdom of heaven that we think that we know better because we think that, you know, we're something and we know right from wrong. But if we can understand, there is a logic to it, like you were saying. There is. It's just this, it makes logical sense. Like that commentary was saying. That's a good, it's good to be teachable, I guess what it come down to, is we don't know it all.
Yeah, I think you were, what you just said about it just being logical reminded me of in the J.C. Ryle book, for I do read the book, he said something like, basically that—it's logical then that if we were to read that,
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"
then it follows that if faith in Christ brings with it present and immediate privileges, to remain unbelieving is to be in a state of tremendous peril. Like, just like you said, it's just logic.
Right.
You know? And we try and overcomplicate things quite a bit. Even as I'm reading this Scripture, I'm trying to find more in it than there probably is. You know what I mean? Like.
Sure.
Like why is this in there? Because it feels like it goes without saying, but apparently it doesn't. But we are simple beings.
Beans?
Beings. Speak for yourself. But I am a simple being.
Yeah. Yeah, what do you think? What do you think about how it, the verse there kind of changes? In having that contrast there, it says,
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life"
and then kind of opposite of that it says,
"whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
I think it's interesting. It doesn't say, it changed the verb, the action there from believing to obeying. So. And kind of like, I think, Christina, you're talking about the lordship of Jesus. It. This verse speaks to that in speaking of obeying, obeying Jesus, right? So, like, it's like believing and obeying go together. Any thoughts on how obedience is understood in this passage and is that actually being actively preached, do you think? Actively taught? Actively understood in, as people are raising up disciples, I believe that's what the church is doing or should be doing, how much does this thought of obedience to Jesus—I can't recall hearing that a lot in sermons I've heard or just general teaching—obeying Jesus? I've heard a lot of accepting Jesus and believing, but I haven't heard a lot of teaching on obeying Jesus, even though Jesus did say a new command I give you.
Right.
Right.
Love one another. That that is a command to be obeyed. So, any thoughts on that?
It seems like believing. No, it seems like obeying reinforces believing. And I don't, may, I don't know, call me out where I might be off here, but kind of like a chicken or the egg, it's like, do we start, like, behaving because we believe more, or do we start believing more because we're like, obeying more and behaving? And I do think that, I mean, from a behaviorist standpoint, you know, you start a behavior, and you keep on engaging in a positive or a negative behavior that will become more geared towards, like, what you will do moving forward. And that's the thing that you'll start to kind of inch its way up to the top of the hierarchy, right? And so, to obey, I can totally see where obey and believe are really intertwined. But again, it's like, yeah, it's kind of an interesting point that you bring up is, do you, do you obey because you feel like that you've reached a certain level of believing, or is it that you start to believe and then you start to obey and then the belief takes more hold? I don't know what.
Could be both.
I think it's probably different for different people.
Yeah?
I think it's like an individual, like, however you come to faith and the, the circumstances around that. And I don't, there's a lot of factors that would play into that.
But I do think that's a really good point because sometimes we can sort of boil it down so simplistic, like too simplistically, say, "Oh, just say you believe and then you're saved." But actually, like, if you're not, like you said, really accepting the Lord in lordship of your life, are you really, you know, there's even, you know, that passage that talks about, like, many people will say, Lord, didn't I do all these things in your name, and he was like, away from me. I never actually knew you. So, I think there is a really good dynamic in there. And, yeah, I think for me, when. I mean, I grew up Christian, but in high school, I had this crisis of faith of, like, is this really just something that I actually believe or just something my parents told me to believe? And when I really decided to really jump into it and just say, this is what I believe, then I thought there is no such thing as being lukewarm. Right? You're either hot or you're cold. And if. If you're cold and you don't believe, then, you know, there's, you can live your life however you want to live. But if you believe, like, it should radically change your life. And I think that, for me was just like, there is no in-between. Like, it should completely change your life or not. And I think that there's something, yeah, really important in that that's not just about getting out of jail, but actually about living the life. And that was something else I was thinking about is.
I think that's kind of one of the pitfalls because you use that analogy of you can be stuck in jail, or you can be in jail, but the prison door is open, you can just walk out because there's this offer for salvation. But I think oftentimes, even as Christians, once we do believe, we actually can still sit in the jail cell because we think, well, all it does is it just means I'm saved so that I'll go to heaven when I die. But it should actually, there's so much more that's, like, made available to us even on Earth. And so just getting to explore that with the Lord of, you know, healing and like, all the gifts of the Spirit and all of that is just a beautiful way that we could live our lives, so.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think even as believers, there's always those things that are vying for the God space. And I think that, to your point, Maxine, where it's like, yeah, we can be saved, we're sitting in the jail, the door is open, but we, as believers, we can still be there, too. Fair point. Because I do think that there are things that keep on vying for that top part. And if we only, if we basically abuse grace, which Paul, you know, is very clear about being, you know, don't do that, you know, we could still be imprisoned even as believers, because, well, I get. Well, then I guess that's another conversation is, are you really a believer if your lifestyle isn't reflecting it?
I think there's a lot of Scripture that supports that thought process too. I think that obedience sometimes is a byproduct of faith, oftentimes is a byproduct of faith. And then likewise, that as we step out in faith and we obey in ways that aren't necessarily comfortable for us or natural for us, and we see God show up in those spaces or we see him change us, then we're more inclined then to have more faith. Like, because of, I stepped out in obedience and I moved to California even though I had no money. And then I saw God, like, show up and provide. And then that increased my faith. And then it's this, like, cyclical effect of continuing in that, in that pattern, I guess, and getting to know. Then you're, you're knowing the Lord also more and more.
And then even with some of the things that you guys just said there, like, we, that idea of, like, staying in jail as Christians, like, everything that he commands us to do is to our benefit. And even if we can't see that right now, and that's why that is kind of like an odd thing that we would choose not to obey is because we don't, we don't totally understand that, but, like, it's like you guys are saying, who is Lord, then? Is it me because I know what's best for me? Or is it God because He knows what's best for me? And so even when I obey—not wanting to or not understanding where he's leading me—I will always come out on top. Like, even, like, I definitely cannot see it all the time or feel it all the time, but it's to our benefit. It doesn't matter. Like, not that it doesn't matter to God. It doesn't change his reality at all whether or not I choose to obey. He's still Him. He's still good and glorious. He's still on the throne. It doesn't make or break who he is. It's all like, to our gain. So, when we choose not to do that, then, yeah, in a way we are continuing to live in, like, some cage without even realizing. We're not even aware of, like, what's available to us after that.
Yeah, becoming a psychologist, it definitely strengthened my faith because it's, I know from a psychological standpoint there's certain behaviors that leads people down a path that is a horrible existence. And that backs up Scripture. I mean, because God's rules and laws, to your point, isn't just because, like, because I said so, because I want to just make your life miserable. Like, no, because I want to make your life as good as possible. And so, it's the path towards self-indulgence and hedonistic behavior versus coming under the authority of Christ and following what his direction, his rules are. And that is actually the better way. And so, it's just kind of fun where being a psychologist, it's like, yes, that'll that all matches up. And I can talk to people that aren't believers and most everybody will always know that I'm a believer, even if my client isn't. But I'll say this isn't coming from like a, like a moral standpoint for like a biblical standpoint per se. Let's just kind of take that away from it. Is this behavior going to better you or make it worse? And so, and then obviously that is backed up though with, with Scriptural truths. But yeah.
One of the chapters of my book that I'm working on is. So, the whole book is about waiting and the reasons why God sometimes doesn't give us what we want in the immediate circumstances. And one of my chapters is sometimes we wait because we've been disobedient. And I have a little bit of a paragraph.
Yeah?
So.
Shameless plug.
Shameless plug of a book that's not yet published.
I'm already thinking, I can't wait to read your book.
But it says,
While I know God isn't withholding from or punishing us, this is relevant to believers who are being disobedient. Not, I don't think it applies to an unbeliever.
Sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
So, he does allow us to walk through the natural consequences of disobedience. Galatians 6:7 says, "Don’t be deceived: God is not mocked. For whatever a person sows he will also reap." The pattern we see in Scripture is that if God calls us to do a specific thing, we will be brought back to it eventually, even when we do our darndest to avoid following those instructions. Basically, when we deliberately or not so deliberately, because sometimes I think it happens subconsciously, disobey, the pattern is that problems, pain or suffering follow: Adam and Eve in the garden, the Israelites in the wilderness, Lot's wife looking back, Jonah going the opposite direction, parts of my own story—I heard God tell me to do something specific and I didn't do it.
Right.
And it prolonged my pain, it prolonged my suffering. And if I had probably just done what I was called to do when I was told to do it, I may have avoided some of those things. And I wrote down, God isn't withholding or punishing us per se, but he lets us live out consequences and the fallout from our earthly decisions. His Word does say we will be blessed when we are obedient, in Proverbs 16:20. He wants us to be in his will, his perfect peace, because we can have uncorrupted hope and joy in that.
Really good.
That's so good. You guys ever look back on the consequence that God allowed you to walk through and thought, thank God, like, I had to walk through that consequence, like, because how much worse off would I be if I continued in that pattern or that behavior?
And so much of. Sorry. So much of that pain and consequences is actually what grew my faith. Right? Because walking through something painful, even though it wasn't maybe what I would have chosen, is what showed me God is faithful. God actually ended up bringing about something even better than I could have imagined. And I'm not like a prosperity doctrine person, but, like, when we obey and when we step into his will, like, things are more beautiful, usually.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, they will be more beautiful, period. But it might not, there might be some growing pains, right? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I know we're painting with a pretty broad brush, some of these topics here. I just want to, for our listeners, kind of differentiate a little bit between wrath of God and discipline of God, two different things. I think we've kind of touched on them a little bit differently, but any comments on how the discipline of God is different than the wrath of God? Because God disciplines those he loves and it can feel like wrath, right? A child can feel like they are getting all hell broke down on them when they're getting, getting trained. But that in, that's just, they're not comparing it to the reality of what wrath really is. Wrath is what happens if an undisciplined person goes on about their life in a poor way and reaps the full repercussions of unholy, evil living. Like, the discipline is to keep that from happening. And so, just for clarity's sake, just because we've touched on the topics in various ways, the difference between wrath of God and the discipline of God. Any thoughts on that topic there?
I look at it like, like a loving parent, which is not a popular opinion in today's culture, disciplines their child, right? Like, because they want to keep them safe and teach them how to navigate society in a productive and healthy way. Right? So, when we are following God, he will discipline us or correct us or chastise us, or the Spirit will convict us. These are different ways of him interceding on our behalf because he loves us so much. I look at the wrath of God more as what happens when someone chooses not to ever follow Jesus. And it's like the eternal separation. And it's heartbreaking because all you have to do is turn and believe, right? And so many people choose not to because they look at God as this mean, spiteful man shaking his finger at us from the sky. But that's not his posture towards us. He's open-armed and inviting us in. And he wants to just love on us, like a really good parent would do with their children.
Yeah. Like right now, it's like the wheat and the tares. Things grow together, right? The good and the bad. They're both growing. And there's a future event in which God will sift the two. Which is good and which is bad, or which one goes to life and which one goes to wrath. But right now, we see them both at the same time, right? Earth has them both existing together. The time is still available for repentance and for choosing "this day whom you will serve." Right?
Right.
So, I think we've talked about this verse, perhaps in past podcasts, but Paul says In Ephesians, chapter 5, starting in verse 6,
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things," and he's talking about past sins and wrongdoing, "because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them;"
and so, his encouragement is to not engage, even if he's, even to those in the church, those who do believe in Jesus, there's still this instruction, this warning, this admonishment to, don't become partners with engaging in sin. So, it's, both things are true at the same time. The Christian is forgiven and there's grace upon that person's life. And at the same time, don't partake in the sin which the wrath is coming down upon the sin eventually, if not now, a future time. So, what does that mean? I mean, these are big topics. These are big. I don't know if, it's massive. These are big. And yet it should be simple. And I think it is simple. But at the same time, being forgiven, do not engage in the sinful activities for which you are ultimately forgiven, but do not get around the things that God's wrath is headed towards.
Right.
Right?
I've heard it said this way, it's, accepting Christ is accepting a lifeboat off the Titanic. It's, that's just what it is, is there's, and Christ is giving us a lifeboat to get off of a sinking ship. And those that end up apart from God is their decision not to get on the lifeboat. And so, to partner with people that are willingly, that will, that are under the wrath of God, it's kind of like I don't, it's like I've received the lifeboat, but I'm going to hang out on the Titanic for as long as I can or I'm going to be on the Titanic even though I've said that I'm going to take the lifeboat.
Well, that's probably where like, the discipline of God comes into play. It's like he's going to do things that seem very unpleasant to try to get you out of that situation. And that's where people feel the hard reality sometimes of their decisions is like, oh, I made a mistake. And, well, that's God's mercy.
Yeah.
Right.
Which doesn't feel very good. But it's to prevent you from joining in with these sinful activities which God's wrath is upon those activities. He's gonna, he's got to deal with it.
Right.
And so, it'll feel like a negative experience, like, why is this happening to me, God.
Right.
And it might take a while to figure out, like, what he's trying to teach you, perhaps in that example.
Yeah.
Just using a general thought. Any, any specific ideas how that might actually.
Let's make sure we are clear that there are enough lifeboats for anybody who wants.
Right.
Because the problem.
Stop pointing at me.
The problem with the Titanic was that there weren't enough lifeboats. Right?
Yes.
But God offers every one of us a lifeboat.
Good call.
Sorry.
Yes.
Yes, there's enough lifeboats for everybody.
Even Jon.
Oh, I've been on that live boat for years and years.
My heart will go on.
No.
Is there an example that you can think of where God rescued you, but it didn't feel like a rescue. It felt more like.
Oh, yeah, go.
It felt more like, well.
I think, like, it's kind of in general terms, but I remember growing up, there was a time in my life when there were friends and myself were going in different directions just with lifestyle and the separating of that, it, accompanying with that was loneliness. And like there because like, wow, like these are the people that I knew for a long time. And so, it didn't feel comfortable or good, but the separation was, it was, I think that was one of those things where it's like, yeah, I didn't feel good, but ultimately it was for the good because the two different paths were just different ways of doing life. And one was going down a road that I wasn't meant to go down. And so, I think that because I had put my trust and faith in Christ at an early age, that could have been one of those things where it's like, shake my fist at God it's like, well, why don't God, all my friends are leaving me. And like, he's like, I know it's. And psychologically speaking, it's better to be alone than it is to be with toxic friends. Not that my friends were toxic, but just kind of in generally speaking that was kind of probably what I was experiencing or what I have experienced. Yeah.
I remember, I think it was at this school, high school. I think they had a guest speaker, like a police officer come in to talk to the class and I think the police officer just said something general, like statistics show that like 3% of you in this class are going to be in jail in the next five years or something like that. It was just a blunt fact. It made a lot of parents upset. But I'm pretty sure in the next five years about 3% did go to jail.
Like kind of mental check those people in that room that day.
I think so.
Yeah.
Anyway, the point being is that discipline came to those people and the purpose of it was to get them on the right path. Like even though they all were in the same class learning all the same things, it was a Christian school, there was still discipline there and that's to prevent the wrath from coming upon them, so.
Well, and the wrath of God, it sure does seem like it's a separation from him. It's ultimately the wrath is. Well, the wrath of God seems more like it's in response to his holiness and who he is. And so, an all-holy God will, I mean it's all-consuming and so anything, any impurities that is in the presence of an all-holy God is going to be burnt up. I mean essentially, it's going to, it's not going to withstand the holiness and so Jesus gave us the shield basically to shield us from the wrath of God because we are all under the wrath before we accept Christ and have that covering on us. And so, it's not a, it's not like a nasty, I hope that people, I hope I get to burn people up approach that God's taking. No, it's, no, I'm doing everything I can to shield you from this because it's coming. It's like this is, this has been coming from the beginning of time. And it is amazing how he knew all this was going to be played out. We were going to sin, we were going to, we were going to be separated from God and there's going to be a plan enacted, and it was enacted from the very beginning, before anything was even created on Earth to, for Jesus to die in order that we could be in relationship with God. And so that, and that covers us. But yeah, if you're not covered, then you are exposed and the unholiness is exposed to a holy God. And just like I was saying before about David Jeremiah talking about, you know, clay and wax in the presence of the sun, it's kind of as basic as that. It's just, it's. You're going to, it's going to be burnt up and it's, it's. And you are going to be burnt up in the presence of a holy God. The sin that you carry in you is going to be burnt up if it's not covered and sanctified and washed clean by the blood of Jesus.
One of the favorite, my favorite things that my pastor says a lot is there's nothing you can do to make God love you more, but there's nothing you can do to make God love you less. And I think it's like a good reminder of we don't earn it. It's not something we do to get it or things we do that like, push it away. It comes down to a decision we make as an individual to accept the free gift that he gives us or not.
Right.
Period.
Yeah. Yep. And the separation from God, it's not going to be like on earth because on earth we are experiencing, like there are people that don't follow Christ, and people that do follow Christ. Those that don't follow Christ, I've heard this a lot of times, where it's like, well, hell is just going to be basically how we're doing it right now on Earth, it's just going to be a good time doing what we want to do. Like, well, no, hell is going to be, it's going to be completely void of everything good that you could ever experience on Earth. Even good that is manipulated, that we would call probably sin. There's elements of good in it.
Right.
Because it's like.
And we do it because it feels good.
That's not going to be there either.
Right.
Like, not even a manipulation of good or distortion of good will be present. It's going to be void of everything. And so, no, it's not going to be a party with your friends for eternity. It's going to be completely void of anything that is good.
Well, I was just going to say off of what you've been saying is, because I've heard it said that it's like hell is not just like a fiery pit and could definitely be that, but it is existence without God and every good thing that God is. And so, that is an existence without holiness. It is existence without love, it is existence without joy, without peace, without any hope, without any hope for any of that to change. And not only that, is it's eternal, so there's no hope of it ever changing. And so, for every terrible feeling that we've ever had while existing on Earth, it's infinitely worse. And it is infinite. It's a dark void without God. And I even think about that sometimes and I think, like, is that what it is to, like, go insane? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, at one point in time, I think it still is. It's like the most torturous thing you could do is to isolate someone in a dark space. And like, for infinite amount of time they would never know and they lose their minds. And I just wonder if that's a similar thing that would happen to our souls if we choose this life without God and we choose life without any light and without any joy and without any peace. These things that we've grown accustomed to in the world, like, are we choosing essentially to not even be human anymore? I guess, in a sense. And so, I think it's like we just came so close to that. And like you're saying, like we've all been saying, like, God doesn't wish that on any of us. Like, he loves us so much, that's why he went to cover us, because that is the worst possible outcome for those that he loves, which is each of us, so.
Right. Yeah. And I've heard it put this way, for the believer, Earth is the closest they will ever get to hell. And for the unbeliever, Earth is the closest place they'll ever get to heaven. So, it's one of those things where it's a very interesting time that we have here on Earth. Yeah.
Yeah. In John, verse 36 there, chapter 3, it has the word remain. And so that word remain: to abide, to stay, to continue, to dwell, to endure. You want that for good things, you don't want that for bad things.
Exactly. Exactly.
Okay, well, hey, let's go ahead and get closing thoughts around the room on this topic of remain, also wrath, which we've discussed a lot.
I. I'm doing a deep dive into Philippians right now, and part of what we've covered in the other weeks in my study is the juxtaposition of now and not yet. I think something to remind us all is, Paul, at the end of chapter 3, is joining us to imitate him in striving to be as much like Christ as possible. And, like, none of us are gonna be perfect at remaining apart from sin as long as we're on this planet. Like, none of us can be sinless. We can strive to be, but we're still human, and there's grace for that. But our challenge, once we become believers, is to strive to be like Christ and to imitate Christ. And one of his comments at the end is he's warning us about people who maybe say that they are believers and followers of Christ, but they're not actually doing that. And this kind of speaks to the wrath of God is verse 19. He says they're "enemies of the cross of Christ." And then, "Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame," their "minds set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven." And I just think that's really powerful and poignant for what has been going on recently.
Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Because I've heard people say, you know, like, well, no one's perfect. Right? It's kind of a phrase that's just kind of used a lot. And, yes, it's not about, for the believer, not about being sinless, but to your point, it's about sinning less all the way to heaven.
Yeah.
Because as a believer now 40—and I got saved when I was, like, 4 or 5 years old—I should be sinning a lot less now than I would have, I mean, let's say more like when I was, like, in my teens or something like that. Like, I should be growing. Right? So, it's not about being sinless, but it is about sinning less. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And just to add to that as well, I was talking about earlier about how sometimes we're not fully aware of all the things that we have available to us, but it, we also need to take accountability for our part in that. Right? We can't just assume that at conversion magically we become sinless, we don't have temptation, that we have no lies left in our lives, et cetera. So, as a life coach, I work with a lot of Christians who are still, we're still surfacing lies. Right? They don't just disappear the moment you become a Christian, right? And so, I think there's just a lot in just co-laboring with God in those things, of breaking out of bad habits, et cetera. And so, Romans 12:2 says,
"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind."
And so, it's such an important part of our walk is renewing our mind trying to figure out what are those habits, what are those lies that we picked up that we still need to cast off as we are walking out our lives, so.
Yeah.
I'm thinking on just like, how good God is to us that in, even when he's disciplining us or, well. Yeah. I mean, how much good he can bring out of that for own benefit. And I just was kind of thinking about the question that you posed of like, has God ever like, disciplined you to. How did you phrase it?
Can you think of any specific examples where someone was disciplined and it felt like wrath, but the intention of it was to prevent the wrath from coming?
Yeah. And so, I've just been kind of in the back of my head while we're having this discussion, kind of thinking on that in my own life. And I can, for one, that first situation that you talked about with you and your friends is very, I'm sure that we've all had experiences like that, but very pertinent is that there's this, sometimes this tearing away from people that we love because we're not walking in the same direction and it feels excruciatingly lonely sometimes. And then I was thinking of a situation in which I had done wrong. And the consequence of that was very weighty, it was very heavy and it was very painful. And like, what God ended up doing with that was because it was so, like, it was so my own fault too. Like, and I knew of that too, that the only place I really had to go was back to the Lord and ask for forgiveness. And I, what I ended up experiencing was like a long season of just, like, I don't want to call it isolation, but like, this, like, preservation, where it was just me and the Lord and a lot of being on my face before the Lord. And what happened was, I got to know God in ways I don't think I ever would have had I not experienced that. And like. And God even, like, allowing me to fall on my face. Like, I feel like it's a situation that it didn't have to be that way, but because God was so gracious to me, he allowed me to, like, make this mistake. But then his response was so gracious too, that, like, I got to see the Father's face in ways that I just have wouldn't, I don't think I ever would have. And so, I'm really challenged with that, that, like, even in his, like, what should have been wrath or should have been something terrible, like, he brought so much good out of that, and. Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
No, a closing thought for me is just that there is the free gift, like the wrath that is in the future still. There is the free gift to have that not be a part of your existence. And the free gift of Christ is the thing I think we all, it's the thing that we just, I don't know, it's a choice, it's a decision. The prison door is open. All we need to do is to walk out. And so, it's not complicated. I think that some of our own past experiences and our own frame of minds, it can make it complicated, overly complicated. But the free gift is there and we just need to receive it.
Yes.
Yeah, there's a lot more that can be said on this topic. We at least scratched the surface today, I believe, so, the main takeaway, of course, is the gospel, the good news of Jesus, which is the way to life. He is the way to life and, which bypasses the wrath of God entirely. And the way that those terms are is to help us understand God's goodness and that he's so good that he will deal with the evil to give us a good, right? A good eternity with him. And can you imagine eternity that has the evil not dealt with? It'd be like heaven with a little side of chaos over here. Well, that wouldn't be good. You know? He's got to deal with the evil, and so it's a good thing that God has for us, so.
Yeah, Jesus became sin and the wrath was poured out on him.
Yeah.
That's a trip.
It is.
I think that's just a good reminder for us as Christians, too that whenever we question how much does God really love us, does he really care, is he really involved and just remembering that, you know, if God, Romans 8:31-32 says,
"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?"
So good.
Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Remember to like and subscribe if you haven't already. We'd appreciate it.
Very much.
Very much so. Until next time.
Take care everybody.
Thank you.
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