Episode Transcript
When I was a kid, I wanted to be a veterinarian, a disappointment to my grandfather when he realized I wasn't aspiring to follow in his footsteps as a veteran. But as my pronunciation skills improved, I assured him that I'd still retire after having spent my time in the trenches, the only difference being that I'd be in there with kittens.
I wanted to be a veterinarian for the same reason others do, to do my part to help to make animals well, a sentiment with which actor James Cromwell would agree. Cromwell once said, "Pets are humanizing. They remind us we have an obligation and responsibility to preserve and nurture and care for all life."
Given that he starred in not one, but two movies where he played second fiddle to a clever pig, I don't think he was speaking hypocritically. But sadly, not even the highest sense of responsibility towards the preservation and well-being of a four-legged life guarantees that that life will be saved. Such was the case with my childhood pet rabbit, Floppy.
It was the summer of 1992. Bags were packed, bikes were loaded, and the rabbit sitter confirmed. We were going camping. For me, the countdown began months prior, and the day was finally here. And not a moment too soon. I was still processing MacGyver's series finale and to be honest, I really needed a break from it all. And I couldn't think of a better way to clear my head than getting back to nature. For four days and three nights, no Johnny Do list, no responsibilities. Just me, a campfire and a 12-pack of Capri Sun.
The grandparents had arrived and all that remained was a final check before we left the house—a final check to ensure nothing was dripping, trickling or leaking. And we also wanted to make sure all the house faucets were off. All was in order except one thing: Floppy. None of us could quite put our finger on it exactly, but there was something "off" about Floppy, which was a little concerning because at no point did Floppy ever present himself as particularly "on." After concluding that the 13-year-old neighbor girl may not be prepared to provide mouth-to-mouth to a rabbit in the off-chance resuscitation was needed, we decided to start our vacation with a trip to the vet.
A bell rang as we entered the front door and a woman wearing a lab coat met us at the check-in counter. My dad explained the situation, including the fact that we were technically on vacation, and asked what the options were. The woman gave Floppy a look and confirmed that there was indeed something off. The woman suggested that we leave the rabbit with her and assured us that she would provide the needed diagnostic assessments and give Floppy any medical treatment she felt necessary while we were away. Always wanting to masterfully walk that fine line between empathy and fiscal responsibility, my dad asked what something like that would cost. The woman couldn't give an exact dollar amount. This spoke loudly to the financially frugal part of my dad.
"Not even something in the ballpark?" he asked.
"Unfortunately, no. Not until I've finished running all the tests."
In the battle of positive character traits, fiscal responsibility was starting to win. The woman took her stethoscope off her neck as she began a preliminary assessment. My dad leaned in a little and spoke quietly.
"And what if you were to, you know, just put the rabbit down?"
"Put the rabbit down?" she asked.
"Yeah, you know." My dad placed inverted praying hands on the side of his head. "To sleep."
The woman removed her stethoscope from her ears and locked eyes with my dad.
"Sir, we save and heal animals here. We do not euthanize them." She reinserted her earpieces and continued her evaluation. "Not unless it's terminal."
And as if my dad and Floppy had been rehearsing all week in some sort of Rabbit and Costello routine, on cue, Floppy ran three circles inside of his cage, stopped, and plopped on his side. The woman quickly used her instrument to listen for signs of life. She sighed. The woman and my dad looked at each other.
My dad matched her sigh, gave what appeared to be a brief moment of silence, and said, "I think it's terminal."
Edgar Allan Poe once said, “The boundaries which divide Life from Death are at best shadowy and vague. Who shall say where the one ends, and where the other begins?”
And let's be honest, we continue to grapple with these boundaries to this day. Take, for example, some popular movie titles over the past few decades: "Night of the Living Dead," "Return of the Living Dead," "The Walking Dead," "The Dead Don't Die," "Army of the Dead," "Corpse Bride," and "Dead Alive," just to name a few. But this fascination with the thin line between life and death is nothing new, and personally, I think Jesus started it.
In John chapter 5, Jesus says,
“'Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.'"
And just like that the zombie genre began. Probably.
But the depth of Jesus' words is deeper than six feet under. Jesus addresses the dead on two different levels: the spiritual and physical. And he begins by addressing the former.
Jesus states the hour "'is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.'"
And who are the spiritually dead? Ephesians 2:1-3 reads,
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
So, sin equals death. But the dead don't die. At least they don't need to. As Jesus stated, "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."
As Paul emphasized at the beginning of the Ephesians passage, you were dead. Past tense. Because being spiritually dead is not a death sentence. Paul continues in verse 4, starting with two of the most hopeful words ever to be written, two words noted and spoken many times from behind a pulpit: "But God."
Paul continues,
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
But will the dead literally come out of their graves? Yes.
Theologian Albert Barnes writes,
"All the dead, of every age and nation. They are described as 'in the graves.' Though many have turned to their native dust and perished from human view, yet God sees them, and can regather their remains and raise them up to life. The phrase 'all that are in the graves' does not prove that the same particles of matter will be raised up, but it is equivalent to saying 'all the dead.'....
"He will restore them to life, and command them to appear before him. This is a most sublime description, and this will be a wonderful display of almighty power. None but God can 'see' all the dead, none but he could remould their frames, and none else could command them to return to life."
It's interesting. The spiritually dead can be resurrected. It's a choice. The physically dead, on the other hand, will be resurrected. There is no choice in the matter. As Jesus said,
"'an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.'"
Think Lazarus. John 11:43-44 reads that Jesus "cried out with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come out.' The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth."
Lazarus didn't have a say in the matter. Neither will we. A time will come when Jesus once again cries out in a loud voice: come out. But it won't be Lazarus' name he calls, it'll be yours, it'll be mine—to either the resurrection of life or of judgment.
The real zombie apocalypse didn't begin in a lab. It began in a garden, when sin entered the world.
Romans 5:12 reads,
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—"
As Jesus declared, the "'hour is coming, and is now here,'" as if revealing to those around him the devastating reality of their situation, that they've been infected, are dead, and just don't know it.
And as noted, the infection carries with it the consequences of judgment. But God.
Romans 5:15-17 reads,
"But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."
That day with the veterinarian was one of my first exposures to one of life's harshest realities: death. And it scared me. Because the one person who was supposed to be able to save a life—the one with all the credentials and ability—couldn't. And I started to realize that when it came to death, despite our best efforts, it's not a matter of if, but when. But God.
Not only does God have the credentials and ability to save us, he already did through the death and resurrection of Jesus. The antidote to this virus—this matter of sin—is not through injection, but through profession and faith by grace.
Romans 10:9 states,
"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
And this antidote not only solves the problem of death, but fear of death. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:55,
"'O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?'"
The walking dead isn't fiction, it's reality. And the fact of the matter is, until we make the choice to receive the free gift of salvation—the antidote to sin and its natural consequences: judgment—we're all walking dead. We just don't know it. But God.
We're gonna have a new theme song, too, so.
Oh, we are?
Yeah. It's gonna be good.
This is a whole new ballgame.
We're gonna, we're gonna just mix it up a little bit. We're mixing it up.
We're updating it.
Yep.
Yep.
Time for a refresher. Time for a refresh.
New season, new song.
That makes sense. Most shows go through that.
We're right in there.
Yeah.
Well, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. My name is Chris. Dr. Jon Troll is my brother. We're joined once again with Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson, Licensed Mental Health Counselor Kathy Myhre, and Project Manager Jami Troy. Welcome, everybody.
Good to be here.
Thank you.
Good to be here.
We're continuing our study in the book of John and passage of Scripture today is John, chapter 5, verses 24-29. I'll read that out of the ESV.
"'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
“'Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.'"
So just a kind of quick overview of kind of the title, why we titled it that way. Our title today is "Tombs." And kind of the idea there is that this applies to everybody. Some rise to life and some rise to judgment. But kind of the universality of that is—kind of the all, it applies to everybody—because he says, "'Do not marvel at this.'" And earlier he, he says like miracles are done so that you may marvel. That's something unique. That's something you don't, you don't see 5,000 people eat based on a loaf and fish, you know, multiplication of food, like the feeding of the 5,000, that doesn't happen all the time. Right? That's done so you may marvel, it's a sign. But this is like, do not marvel because everybody's going to be raised. You know?
They're just facts.
It's just facts.
Just facts.
He's laying the groundwork of what to expect here. And so, anyway, that's kind of the opening thought there on the, the overall theme of this episode here. So, we'll turn it to the panel for opening comments and take it from there. Dr. Jon.
All right. Well, first and foremost, it's great to be back and great to be with all of you here today. This is fun to get the ball rolling again. So, when I was writing the vlog and reading this passage, I just, I thought it was just interesting, just the idea of zombies. Like, I first I thought it was just kind of, just kind of funny. I was like, that's kind of funny that like we, like, we're into zombies. And then like I started to just kind of look at it through that lens a little bit, kind of more just out of a joke. And then it became like, like there's, there's a, there's a parallel there.
And so, when Jesus says, yeah, in that passage, you know,
"'Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.'"
It's like, well, that's, that's very zombie-esque. And so, but obviously he's speaking in that portion of it spiritually. But then I started to think, okay, so what, what other, are there other areas in the Bible where there might be a similarity between those who don't believe in God and zombies? So just for fun, I looked up, so, descriptions and characteristics of zombies.
So, they're, they're mindless and they lack cognition. Violent and aggressive. Desire to mutilate and eat flesh. Then loss of humanity. So unable to love, laugh or live freely. Alright, bear with me for a second. So, biblically speaking, Ephesians 4:17-18,
"Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart."
And then Psalm 14:1,
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'"
Okay, so mindless and lack of cognition. Now moving on to violent and aggressive. Proverbs 21:7,
"The violence of the wicked will sweep them away,
because they refuse to do what is just."
Then Ephesians 4:31-32,
"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."
And then Romans 1:28-31,
"And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless."
So violent and aggressive. Moving on. Desire to mutilate and eat flesh. Might be a stretch, but Philippians 3:2,
"Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh."
Alright? Loss of humanity. So, unable to love, laugh and live freely. So, unable to love. 1 John 4:7-8,
"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
Unable to laugh. Psalm 16:11,
this is God speaking.
"in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore."
Then unable to live freely. 2 Timothy 2:25-26,
"Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
And then John 8:36,
"'So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'"
So, first there's kind of a stretch, but then I was kind of looking at it. It's just kind of interesting. There's just some parallels there. But the point of it is with Christ we have life, and without Christ we have death. And without Christ we are the walking dead. We just don't know it.
Yeah, mine went to a different place. And the place that my mind went is the danger that we have in looking at another human being and defining them somehow as subhuman, which I think is going on a lot today. I'm thinking about the obvious story that's been all over the news a couple years ago of the couple who defined their kids as zombies and, you know, what happened there. And yet I get the spiritual implication of the walking dead. I used to joke I do see dead people, and dead in their spirit, dead in their heart. And yet I'm convinced that as long as a life, you know, breathes, we're to treat them with dignity, and. And that's where my mind went.
Yeah.
Alright, great.
So, my own study. Well, I was laughing a little bit internally because I went a completely different direction than what you just did there. But I also found, actually, a lot of Scripture that I think supports what you're saying. And one of them was,
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Like, we were born into sin, which is, sin is death. Like, the wages of sin is death. And so, I think, like, it stands to reason, like, we're born into, in an odd way, born into death. And so, that we are perhaps spiritually dead before we come to know the Lord, even. There is that quote—you might have, you guys might have heard it—but Leonard Ravenhill once said, like, God did not come into the world to make bad men good, but to make dead men live. And I think that just really kind of—it is a quote, it's not necessarily Scripture—but I do think that touches on the nature of, like, we are dead without the Lord until God comes to redeem us and give us life. And, like, I'm sure that we all have similar stories, maybe depending on how old we were when we came to know the Lord. But I feel like that was what happened to me when I met the Lord, was it was suddenly there's life. And I didn't realize that I didn't have life until I came to know, like, how much life is in this relationship with the Lord. So.
Right.
Just to.
It's a little bit. I probably used this comparison before, but it's like somebody who has chronic pain, and then they have relief from it from one way or another, and they didn't realize how painful it was until they're out of it.
Yep.
Like, people that don't know Christ that then see and find and accept him into their lives, it is like they don't realize how bad it was until that's no longer the case. There was somebody recently that I was talking to that said just that. It was a parent of one of my clients and she was just telling me how she recently came to Christ and she was like, I so wish I knew this like 30 years ago. I would have sidestepped so much pain, and I have so much freedom now that I didn't have before. And it was like night and day difference.
Yeah.
I just thought it was interesting that, you know, the death, the dead can actually hear Jesus' voice. Like so for, you know, there's no movie out there. Well, I'll say this, not a lot of zombie movies have the zombies being rehabilitated into, you know, human anymore.
Right.
But Jesus specifically said in verse 26, or maybe it's 28,
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice."
So, dead or alive.
Right.
The dead are even gonna hear his voice.
Right.
And that's. Yeah, like I said, I've yet to see a zombie movie where, where they're getting, you know, called back to life.
Yeah, they just get blasted away.
They usually, yeah.
That's basically how they get. Yeah. And that, that what you just mentioned, is like one of the most terrifying things, I think. It can be. And one of the most amazing things is the fact that we will be called to life and you don't get a decision in that.
I was thinking of that too when I was studying this was like, I've. I think we talk about how like, for a Christian, like the thought of death is it, it bodes differently, I think, because there's hope after this life. And if you maybe, I mean depending on what your philosophy on like the afterlife is as an unbeliever, you may have fear regarding that. You may not. But the ironic thing is like you wouldn't be aware of the fact that you're still going to face God. You know? Like. And so, for me, it brings me comfort knowing that I'm going to face God. But for other people, like there might be an ambiguous like ambiguity, but they're not aware of like what is coming up after that. You know?
And therein lies a lot of existential crisis.
Yeah.
What happens when I die? And it's like the believer doesn't, isn't concerned with that.
Right.
It's. I know what's going to happen when I die.
Right.
And the people that don't, they should be in a bit of a crisis.
Right.
Because that is, that's, that's significant.
Yeah. And the Bible seems to provide a very binary option. Like in Deuteronomy, chapter 30, verse 19,
"'I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,'"
And I kind of wonder if, like, is this one of, is it a tactic of the enemy, the devil, to convince us that there's a third option where you don't need life or death, you can kind of have this state of being that can dabble in whatever you want, and you don't necessarily need the fullness of God and it kind of taints belief in that being a good thing anyway, this deception. And then it also says, but you won't really die either. You know, you can be like a zombie. You can be a midway point. And there's this sort of pop culture fascination of these midway points brought up with ghosts and goblins and zombies and kind of this fascination with paranormal that's halfway there. But the biblical text very much seems to say there's life and death. You know, you cross from death to life upon belief. And so, I just wonder if that's like a, is that something that's kind of creeping in subtly in culture? Is it a thing that the church kind of needs to be aware of, not to dabble in sort of this middle ground where you can kind of do both. You can kind of be alive and dead at the same time rather than fully one or the other. Or even being aware of, you know, spiritually speaking, an unbeliever would be fully dead. Right? And a believer is fully alive as we await—and we can go on to this in a little bit more—as we await the redemption of our bodies, ultimately.
One of the concepts that comes to mind is the Jewish idea in the Old Testament of Abraham's bosom. And this is another passage. And I was raised Catholic, and so as Catholic, we always grew up thinking there was a purgatory. It wasn't quite defined, but that seems to be supported by books in the Apocrypha. But also this one. May I read it?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Okay. So, this is out of Luke 16:19. And by the way, it's fascinating to me that Luke was thought to be either a Hellenistic Jew or a Gentile. We don't know. He's the physician. But there was a concept, you know, I've seen in different commentaries about Abraham's bosom. And so,
"'There was a rich man who was dressed,'"
I'm starting in Luke 16, verse 19,
“'who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“'The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."
“'But Abraham replied, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."'"
And so, it seems to me in the New Testament they are, you know, talking about this chasm now that once you die, you know, there's no other chances. You know, it's appointed man to die once and then the judgment. And either it's the Great White Throne Judgment, not good news if you stand before that, where, or it's the Bema Seat Judgment, from what I've read in Scripture, where, that's where we will stand between the eyes of whom we'll give account. And that's Jesus. That's our Savior. He's already, he's already stood before the Great White Throne on our behalf. And as believers, I don't believe we'll ever see that one. But I wonder if, you know, maybe that concept that's, you know, the Jewish people were going, believed in at the time of Abraham's bosom is being redefined here.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I do think, yeah, there's definitely a lot of, there's a lot of talk in pop culture about non-binary. And we, we're seeing this in a lot of different areas. It's from sexes, from the sex. It's like I'm [not] male nor female. I'm somewhere in between. Neither. Both. I think politically is interesting. It's more appealing if you were to say, or if someone says I'm moderate, I'm somewhere in the middle. There's something to I think this safety in the middle, or this idea that you can, you know, somewhere in between feels good and feels right because I don't want to say that it's either one or the other. I do think it's a tactic of the enemy. A tactic because, I mean, Jesus says, be hot or cold, don't be warm. I mean, warm is middle. And so, there's so much to this, to our society that's saying, like, hey, the middle is okay, be in the middle. Like, the water's nice and warm in the middle. It's like. But it's gross. It's like. It's like, no, be hot or cold. Don't be warm. But yes, I do think that there is, there's this, the tactic of the enemy is to say that it's not one or the other. You can be somewhere in between. It's okay.
Well, I think it keeps us ineffective, too. Like, I've always been that person. I just hate that phrase of, like, you just gotta have balance, like, with whatever it is, because some things aren't actually to be balanced. And the times that I would hear this most growing up was like, you have, like, you, as Christians, we are called to be like Jesus, and then there's also the world. But, like, you can't be too much like Jesus because then you're weird. So, you gotta find that balance. Right? And I was like, that implies that, like, the, like, the Jesus way is an extreme. And then the world, like, the world is another extreme. And that, like, what we're doing is finding some perfect harmony in there, and that doesn't exist. Like, Jesus is the standard and that's who we're going toward. And I think if we are especially adopting that kind of mindset that exists somewhere in the middle, then we never fully make a choice. We never fully commit to one thing. We can live in this ambiguity forever and be ineffective in whatever arena that is. And it, like, we think it means safety, but it actually just means, like, we're just treading water for our entire lives, whatever that is.
And that reminds me, you know, yeah, the whole pitfall of moral relativism. I think of the book of Judges. Everyone did what was right in their own eyes. And so, they were mixing worship with the Most High God with their pagan practices. And he was not really okay with that. You know?
Yeah, not so much.
No, no. It was black and white. Yeah. And even, and I think that's where a lot of society has a hard time, because the Word says, you know, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, no one, except through him.
Right.
And while I believe the table is much bigger than we realize, he is the gate. And there's no arguing that with anybody who, you know, knows Scripture.
Yeah.
Well, wouldn't that just be, like, in some way, like, living like this, like, moral relativism that you're talking about, like, living in deception. And so, like, the truth, the truth sets us free. And so, I think this is maybe why I get so, like, even, like, fiery about this idea, is because if people are living in that ambiguity, they're not walking in freedom. And God promises freedom. He promises life. Like, if anything, that's where this whole, like, study took me with the study of death, is that in actuality how much power God has to give us life and how much he wants to, like, he has the power of life. And the only way, the only one who has power to give life is God. And so, I just, like, I think in my mind, like, that, like you were saying, that is the enemy to do that because it keeps us from everything that God has for us.
Yeah.
And that frosts my cookies.
And that's a bad thing?
Yeah.
Because holidays are coming up and a good, frosted cookie is fantastic.
I actually feel like that.
But it's a bad thing.
It is.
Okay. Grinds your gears.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
Frosts my cookies.
Never heard it.
Never heard it either.
I feel like it's beyond me to have made that up. It must have been a movie quote from something.
It's interesting, you did bring up the gate. Right? And it's not, but a couple chapters later, the good shepherd, where he talks about. He is. He is the gate. And the sheep know his voice. And entering through the gate. Right? Through Jesus.
Yeah. It's interesting how like, like, the thought is, it's so exclusive, the Christian belief that Jesus is the only way. And it's the most, it's the most inclusive. That's the, and I think that's another tactic of the enemy. There's this lie that says that, like, well, that's not, it's not fair that it's just the one way. It's like, it's totally exclusive. But no, it's, it is the most inclusive religion there is out there. 100%.
And I 100% agree with you. And I think where some of the confusion comes is, and I, and I'm saying I'm, you know, I'm putting myself in there too. I think in the Church oftentimes people get confused between issues of salvation and issues of obedience. And they try to argue as if issues of obedience are issues of salvation. And, you know, there's none of us righteous. Right? We've all sinned. Yeah. And fall short of the glory of God. And there will not be anyone in hell because of their sin, but because they refuse to accept the covering, the propitiation for their sin. Period.
Yep. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, talked about a tactic of the enemy, the devil, could be to make people believe that the middle ground is a safe area. I wonder about another potential tactic of the enemy is to try to get people to hang on to this life, this physical life, as best they can, as if that's all that really there is. And of course, Jesus said, you know, you have to be willing to give up much of this life to follow him. You have to, there's things you have to give up. And yet, there is a promise that God does not really forsake our physical bodies either. He's, you know, he's very much involved in that. And ultimately the resurrection involves the physical body.
I'm hoping to get a new one, though, brother.
Yeah.
And, you know, in Romans 8, starting in verse 18, it says,
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."
And Matthew Henry has this commentary where he says,
"There is a life reserved too for the poor body at last: He shall also quicken your mortal bodies," like in Romans 8:11. "The Lord is for the body; and though at death it is cast aside as a despised broken vessel, a vessel in which is no pleasure," and "yet God will have a desire to the work of his hands...will remember his covenant with the dust, and will not lose a grain of it; but the body shall be reunited to the soul, and clothed with a glory agreeable to it."
So, he's saying that God's not going to totally neglect his handiwork. He designed our bodies. Right? He's not going to cast away the, the physical altogether. There's something there about the resurrection. And just connecting a few more dots here, he goes on to say, Matthew Henry,
"The bodies of the saints are the temples of the Holy Ghost."
So, what does that say? We've talked about temples in prior episodes and isn't it kind of interesting to think that that's not limited to this pre-death experience? It's also kind of like a post-death experience as well. The temple continues like we continue as temples of the Holy Spirit post-death, like upon the resurrection. And then one final point here is. And Jon, you brought up 2 Timothy 2 and it actually also mentions there that, it says beginning in verse 15 of chapter 2,
"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened."
So related to death and resurrection, there's a teaching that can, it says, "They are upsetting the faith of some. But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: 'The Lord knows those who are his,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.'”
So, an interesting thought there is that there is a bit of hope in knowing that our very bodies are going to be resurrected and that it could be a tactic of the enemy to get us to put all our eggs in that basket alone and not look forward to a future in which God also, does have in mind our physical well-being, you know, it's just, it, there's signs that point to that throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament too, I think, so.
Well, my mind has just been blown. Of course, I've heard that passage so many times that, you know, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. But when you were speaking, Chris, what also came to mind as Paul says, it's in Christ that "'we live and move and have our being.'" And so, even as the Holy Spirit is residing in us, we are residing, it's in Christ that we live and move and have our being.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's so cool that when it's all said and done, or I should say when this, when this life is said and done for us, God cares about everything. Like, even, like, spirit, body, like he cares about everything. And I do think it's cool just how he made us from dirt and dust and like, and he's like, this is, I care for this, and I care for what I created. And it's almost like another dig to the devil. It's like, I'm gonna, like, yes, their bodies will decay and because of death, yes, they will die. But you know what? I'm gonna bring them back again. They were dust once, they're going to return to dust and I'm going to turn them back into human again. So twice I'm going to do it. So, I love that.
And I want to, I want to go back to something you said, Jon. And I don't know how other people view this, but I, you know, this whole concept of, is there a holding space for us? You know. And this is just my opinion. I don't think there is. Because Jesus turned to, you know, the sinner on the cross and said, this day you will be with me in paradise. We also know from Scripture that Jesus ascended. He is seated at the right hand of God. So, this paradise isn't a holding area. This paradise is heaven. Now we can get into a big conversation about, you know, the, what is the third heaven that, you know, the Apostle Paul was permitted to see? But I just think that's an important concept that when we die, you know, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
If the Lord is at the right hand of God, then that seems to me that that logically would say that that's where we go. Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, well, any other thoughts on the topic or a new, new angle you want to bring up?
Well, I had a thought.
Go ahead. Please, share.
So, several years ago, I was in Uganda, and we were taking a flight to, from Entebbe, Uganda to Kigali, Rwanda. And the distance between those two cities is similar to the distance between Seattle and Portland. And so, we left Entebbe at 9:45PM and the flight was 45 minutes long. And we arrived in Kigali at 9:30PM so we actually gained 15 minutes because they were in a different time zone. And so, when I think about this whole concept of, you know, there was this passage that I brought up In Hebrews, Hebrews 11, where this is right after the Hall of Faith, but it says in Hebrews 11:39,
"These were all commended for their faith," well, who? They're talking about saints of old, people in the Old Testament that lived, you know, with the promise of redemption.
"yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."
Well, as I've read commentaries on, well, what does that mean? Some commentators suggest that that means that when we arrive in glory, we're all going to arrive in glory at the same time. Well, how in Sam Hill is that possible? Well, I'm going to go to Hebrews 1, and I'll just start at the beginning.
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."
Well, that word, universe is a compilation of two words in the original language, "tous aiōnas," and it's literally translated "time worlds."
"The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."
And what blows my mind about that is, I imagine, I mean, I imagine this would be like trying to talk to, talk with Noah about AI. There's so much that I don't think we understand and realize in terms of, you know. And what does it mean when it says a day is like a thousand years to the Lord and a thousand years is like a day?
Right.
Right? So, what are we dealing with here? Well, you know, it's been 40 years since I've taken any physics or finite math or tensor calculus, and if there's any physicist, I'm sure I'm butchering it. You can write in. But when we think about time, we think of linear time, but quantum time isn't a line. It, it's more like a, like an orb, like a graph. And from quantum time, you can argue that somebody who died 200 years ago in Christ, and somebody who's going to die 200 years from now, reach glory at the same time. And with Einstein's theory of relativity, we know that time is not an absolute construct. And so, I don't know. I don't know how he's going to arrange that because I, I don't know. I mean, whether we believe there's a holding spot, although I don't see that from Scripture, or whether we're all going to reach glory at the same time. Something that I don't quite understand is going on here.
Right, yeah.
And then I thought about the story on the Mount of Transfiguration. Okay?
Sure, yeah.
Where Peter, James and John are on the mountain and the Lord is transfigured. And I don't think this was just a vision because Peter was interacting with the conversation that the Lord was having with Moses and Elijah. And not only was Peter interacting, wanting to raise, you know, structures to worship them, but God interacted. So, what is going on there?
Yeah.
What if, and I, I don't know, I'm not trying to be weird, but what if that conversation occurred during the time of Jesus and the disciples, you know, AD 28, 26, and what if that conversation occurred in BC 13th century when Moses walked the planet, and what if the conversation also occurred in BC—
I like that kind of weird.
Nine, yeah, 9,000 at the same time? What are we dealing with here?
Yep. It's interesting how there's almost like a, it's almost like a negative parallel in, was it 1 Kings with Saul and the Witch of Endor? How there was, how a seemingly the spirit or Samuel himself, the prophet was brought to, was animated, to where he was communicating with Saul. Because Saul, he was tripping out because the Philistines were, had a big old army and he didn't know what was going to happen. So, he wanted some advice from the old prophet Samuel who had died prior. And so, he was, then God wouldn't talk to him. The prophets wouldn't speak to, God wouldn't speak to the prophets, to Saul either. So, he went to a witch to say hey, can you conjure up this old prophet? You know, I think that would, you know, tell truth and it happened and there's some debate.
The witch was surprised it happened.
Yes. So that's what's interesting is the witch started. No, the witch didn't start the whatever ritual it was to then, you know, basically, it most likely, try to trick somebody, but then Samuel appeared and then she freaked out. And so, I don't know, it's just interesting how there's like a parallel, a little bit, to where, done the right way and the wrong way, what that means exactly, I'm not sure. It's just interesting that in the Old Testament too there is an account where something unusual happens when it, talking about someone who had already died. Or to your point Kathy, maybe Samuel wasn't dead. Maybe he, that happened because he prophesied the same thing he prophesied earlier, but he just said it in the present. Anyhow.
I know, I just am humbled.
Yeah.
Like. Boy, you pulled that passage out of your back pocket. I'm super impressed. That's like.
Well, I was, I was looking at that for a little bit. I was trying to like, shoehorn it in there a little bit, but spent a lot of time reading. But I don't know, it's just kind of interesting.
Oh, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, that's a really interesting passage.
And you know, that can be a tactic of the enemy, the devil as well, is to make us think that time is an absolute, that time, it is too late for, you know, to change your mind or to change your, to believe in Jesus to cover your past sins or, you know, the linear aspect of time can be, I think, a tactic as well, because there's a lot more going on then I think that we understand that, and I think that the truth is, would actually surprise us all, I think, if we knew even more.
Yeah. Well, like, how many times have perhaps we heard somebody say, like, well, I can't come to Christ now, I've done too much. Or you don't know my past. And it's like, okay, like, what time frame are we talking about here? We're talking like the past, like 20 years, 30 years? 50 years? 80 years? Okay, you're 99 years old and you haven't done one thing right in your entire life, but you can't come to Christ at this last minute because you've done too much? Like, that time is preventing you from eternity with Christ? Yeah, I think that's a total tactic of the enemy, saying that you're too bad for too long and therefore you're disqualified from the redemption that Christ offers. It's like, absolutely not. I mean, just because, like, somebody accepts Christ at 4 years old and one person accepts Christ at 99 years old, that somehow those two are different? It's like the first will be last and last will be first. I mean, everybody, I mean, there's grace for everybody. So, yeah, I think that's a total attack of the enemy.
Yep. Now you're preaching the parable of the, you know, workers in the field.
Right. Yeah.
And Matthew 25ish, I think.
Sounds good.
Jesus is leaving it pretty vague too, but he is saying the hour is coming and is now here. So, he's saying like two different things at the same time. It's kind of an interesting thought.
Yeah. So, death does seem to be a delineation. Yeah.
It's an interesting passage where the word "tombs" appears again. And I just wonder if the setting has anything to do, like, why did it occur here? Why did it occur in this particular place? And it's in Mark, chapter 5, starting in verse 2, it says,
"And when Jesus had stepped out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit. He lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out and cutting himself with stones. And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him. And crying out with a loud voice, he said, 'What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.' For he was saying to him, 'Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!' And Jesus asked him, 'What is your name?' He replied, 'My name is Legion, for we are many.' And he begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. Now a great herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, and they begged him, saying, 'Send us to the pigs; let us enter them.' So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the sea."
And it just goes on to say,
"The herdsmen fled and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened. And they came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed man, the one who had had the legion, sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, and they were afraid. And those who had seen it described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man and to the pigs. And they began to beg Jesus to depart from their region."
And probably one of the kind of saddest verses is,
"As he was getting into the boat," meaning Jesus is leaving,
"the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him. And he did not permit him but said to him, 'Go home to your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.' And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him, and everyone marveled."
So, the, in the town, the people were more comfortable with the demon possessed man than the healed man. And so, what does that say about normalizing just the bizarre activity and about how a society would rather have that and that they're actually afraid of someone being in their right mind. Like, what is the, what is the problem? How does the things get so turned upside down where a society prefers that, prefers the former rather than the latter state of the man. And then I say it's sad because Jesus left. You know, he, they asked him to leave and he left. You know?
Right.
It's like, okay, you know, you don't want this?
So weird.
Just the setting that it took place around the tombs kind of, I just wonder if, you know, there's something there about the narrative, pitching it there. How even amidst the dead, you know, there is a change. Death is not as final as I think a lot of people—it's not the final state of being for people. Like, there's something happens after that. So.
Yeah, the setting is interesting because I guess it does highlight death, obviously, like in a graveyard, in a tomb, like among the tombs. But yeah, to your point, it is weird how societies get to the point where they, the abnormal is normal and then the normal is abnormal. Right? And we're definitely, I mean, like, walk around Seattle, walk around Everett, walk around some of these cities, and you see somebody, you know, punching the wind because they're high as a kite or they're doubled over. They're doing like, you know, they got the. It's like, oh, yeah, that's just someone just tweaking out. Just keep on walking. No big deal. But so, it's become so normalized. You know, you got people thinking that they're animals. You got people in dog collars being walked. You got people, and that's becoming more and more normalized. And it is bizarre. It is bizarre stuff. But then you start to come against that. You start to say, no, this isn't, there's something off about this. And like, how dare you?
The emperor's new clothes.
Yeah. Right.
You're extreme.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, how dare you, like, invalidate their truth? It's like, do you see what they're doing? Like, they're eating dog food. They're being walked on the street. Like, you don't see that they're suffering?
Right.
And like, and you're validating this?
Yeah.
It's like. And so, it's, I mean, I think it's demonic. I mean, to answer the question, I guess more bluntly is, why does society get to the point where this becomes normalized? It's like, well, because the demonic is, has a stronghold.
Right.
And there can, and the people have given themselves over to this idea that right is wrong and wrong is right.
And I wonder, like, in this story, like, the man being demon possessed for however long they knew him, that was the norm. And sometimes as humans, we just, we like what's familiar, not necessarily what's good. And so, and we choose things, even for ourselves, that aren't good, but they're familiar. And so, if we grew up in chaos, we often choose chaos as we get older, we replicate chaos, we create chaos even though it's not good, even though we may crave what's good, but our, like, nervous systems can't handle that. And so, even though this man, like maybe for, I don't even know what he was doing in there, if, like, they were terrorized, if he was like, terrorizing them or something, but like, it's what's familiar. And I also wonder if, like, that was such a, you know, they saw what he would do under the, you know, demonic possession, but then for Jesus to come in and be even more powerful, that might have been like, what? Who is this guy? Like, I could see, like, if they saw, maybe they saw like the demon possessed man as having some sort of power because he was doing some very odd things. And then Jesus coming in and having even greater power and that unfamiliarity, like, this isn't familiar. I don't know what this is. And so because it's unfamiliar, I'm terrified of it. Like, I just wonder if that too.
If this guy terrorizes us, and this guy terrorized the terrorizer, it's like, yeah, let's get him out of here.
And that is very, I think, really true too, for the current culture that we're in too. Like, you can go to, like, cities that you're talking about. And like, I lived in Los Angeles for a while and that was very normal. And I, there was a lot that I just got used to seeing. And then I think, like, I would bring like, a friend to travel down and they're like, what in the heck just, did I just witness? Like, you know, and it could be a very alarming kind of state you're in, but when you're in it, you're like, well, you just adapt to it because this is how you have to live. So. Yeah.
And just getting back to Jon, what you were saying about it, you know, faith sometimes costing us, right? You have to take up your cross and follow him. You know, Jesus did cast those demons into pigs, which was the, you know, somebody's livelihood. And I don't know if that had something to do with the fear, too, that whatever's going on here, it's going to involve change and cost and yeah.
And a word of caution. One person, I mean, I don't know how many demons per pig. Maybe it was one per pig. But, like, someone can have like 2,000 demons in them?
Right.
I mean, or more?
Oh, my.
Oh, man.
That's.
Price of bacon just went up. You willing to pay the price? You willing to pay the cost?
I'm willing.
That was unsavory.
I'll pay whatever I need to for bacon. I'll pay whatever I need to.
Well, so there's another, I think deception, you know, tactic of the enemy, is make people think like they, they can, they can go to hell, everything will be fine, it'll be a party, all the friends will be there.
Right.
You know, and I.
I shouldn't laugh at that, but it's what you just said.
Well, it's said so casually.
Yeah.
It's said so casually.
Right?
It's a bumper sticker on some cars.
And in Revelation, chapter 1, this is Jesus speaking, in verse 17, it says,
"When I saw him," that's Jesus, "I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, 'Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.'"
So, how does that change one's perspective of having a party in hell when they realize it's not the devil leading the party? Jesus is the one who holds the keys of Death and Hades. Right? And so, that he's in control of everything, you know?
Yeah.
Does that, that's just a thought that I just wonder, like, how would that bumper sticker read differently if it's like.
That's an interesting thought.
Party's over.
Jesus is really, he's God of all. Right?
Well, and I guess the irony is that that sentiment, gonna be party in hell with all my friends and buddies, is that it's away from Jesus. And it's like, yes, hell is absent from the presence of God. But, like, yeah, if Jesus holds the keys, it's like you're not getting away from what you think you're getting away from. It's just absent of everything good.
And I know there's different variations of what that word could be translated hell and Hades and, you know, all that. But just as, in a broad concept, nothing is beyond God's, you know, ultimate control. And so. Yeah.
Right. Yep. Yeah.
Something about the weeping and gnashing of teeth and then getting back to the Luke 16. You are in agony? That doesn't sound like a party.
Right.
Yeah. Right. Yep.
Well, go ahead.
No, go for it.
Well, I was thinking along what you were saying with that, like, it's, maybe it's a party, maybe it's a party with your friends, but it, without God, it'll, like, if I were to party with my friends right now, there is probably some laughter, there's probably some joy, there's probably the morning to wake up and recover from, or whatever. But without God, you don't have that. You won't have the joy. You won't have peace after making bad decisions. You won't have, like, the hope for tomorrow. You don't get any of that stuff without God. Like, a life without God is a life without everything good. And to have that for eternity, whether, like, I feel like even if my friends were there, that would still suck.
Yeah. Think of, like, the worst day you've ever had on this earth. And that doesn't, that pales in comparison on what that existence is going to be like.
The loneliness, the pain. I mean, even that idea of, like, you're among other people. Like, you've been in a crowded room, and you've been lonely before. Imagine that to, like, times infinity. Like, you are completely and totally, eternally alone of the soul.
If you're even around people. I don't know. Right?
Right? Yeah. You don't know.
It's like completely isolation.
Right.
It's. I mean, why, yeah, why wouldn't that be the case? Yeah. I mean, I think I've said this before, but what's the saying? Earth is the closest the believer will ever get to hell and the closest the unbeliever will ever get to heaven.
Yeah.
It's like, that's a, that's kind of a, that's an interesting thing to think about.
Right. Yeah.
How do you talk about tombs and not riff on Lazarus, though?
True. That's true.
Bring it.
What do you got?
We're listening.
I mean, guys, dead for four days. Jesus is talking to the disciples, and he makes a cute comment about him falling asleep. And then the disciples are like, well, if he's asleep, he'll get better. And he's like, no, no, no.
Right.
He is dead and we're gonna go, we're gonna go together and it's a good thing that we weren't all together when this happened, because I wouldn't be able to glorify God in the way that I'm about to. Right? And then, you know, Martha, and—is it Mary and Martha? You know, they're just distraught. And Jesus is taking his sweet time knowing, ultimately, he can call him forward. And they were worried about the smell, you know. That's a zombie.
Girls.
As one would be.
Right. Four days and Jesus, was like, roll that stone out of the way and called him out.
They never adequately represent that in the zombie movies.
They don't.
No, they really don't.
Decaying flesh?
Yep.
In The Chosen, the first time I ever saw it is that when Lazarus comes out, they have a gal scream.
Yeah. It's like.
I was like, well, that makes sense.
That's right.
That seems like an appropriate reaction.
That's right. That was such a good scene.
Yeah. That was a really good scene. Really good scene.
But then this might be for somebody listening, too, is when the last thing that Jesus said was,
“'Unbind him, and let him go.'”
I mean, unbind him and let him go. I mean, how many of us are bound and Jesus is speaking to that, right? After raising him straight up from the dead?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that'll preach.
It's a good parallel spiritually for sure, also. Yeah.
I didn't really get to talk on it because I got distracted by your zombie comment at the beginning, but where—in a previous life, I may have also been really in love with the whole zombie genre for a minute there, I just think it's interesting and goofy and, maybe not goofy, I shouldn't say that—but I, when, when I initially, when he gave us this topic, my brain initially went to, like, Jesus, yes, death and like, death for eternity, but also how Jesus calls us to lay down our lives and sometimes unto the point of death. And so, some of us may experience that where we are called to lay down our lives unto the point of death. And then, but for many of us, like, if not all of us, there will be points in our lives where God calls us to lay something down or to, like, let something die, as it were. And this particular Scripture has always, like, I even have, like, a big note here, you can see, with my, like, pretty handwriting, to talk about Lazarus. Right?
Verified.
And I think that, like, that always struck me with the Scripture that they give word to Jesus that he's gonna die, and he's like, actually, I'm just gonna hang out for four days. And I remember the first time I read this, I, like, really dramatically, I was like, what? Because I just was like, why would he, how could he do that? And you continue reading, and it is for the glorification of God. But I just wonder about, like, there are just so many, like, situations in our lives where I suppose God will ask us to lay that down and let him let it die. And there are things that, like, he may, I guess, like, just to speak to the believer that's following Jesus. And things in your life have to die. And if it's like a dream, if it's a relationship, or if it's like a, like a situation that you just had a lot of hope for and it's not turning out the way you thought it was going to turn out, and then that also, like, God is the author of life. And when we can lay things down to him and he can, he has the power to bring life to it. And so, like, one thing that just kind of kept stirring for me is, like, with all of our talk on death in this is really, like, how that really highlights the power of God to bring life where there is death. And, like, death is inevitable, if not only in the natural, but, like, also in the spiritual, like, and how God brings life to that. And he truly, like you said, he holds the power of Hades and Death in his hands. And so, I don't know if that actually contributed to what you were talking about, but I'm just glad you brought it up because it is maybe one of my favorite stories. But I just, and it also, I think if you were to look at it, because it kind of brought a lot of questions to me also about, like, an un, like a believer, we experience death in one way or another in our entire lives, but how God meets us in grief and whether that's like, the death of a loved one or the death of, like, a dream or something, and how God can relate to us in that grief. And Jesus comes right alongside those two sisters, and he weeps with them. I mean, it says even the Jews that were surrounding her, they were all grieving this man. And he, in his compassion, had sympathy for them. And so, I thought it was worth, like, touching on, I guess, but.
Yeah. And that kind of makes me wonder, too, even in the four days leading up to it, I wonder if that actually was painful for Jesus, knowing that his friend was slowly dying.
Yeah.
And, like, to your point, like, yeah, he sympathizes with us in those moments of difficulty and pain and loss. Yeah. I kind of wonder, like, if that was, like, some of the most four excruciating days for him, actually. That'd be kind of interesting.
Yeah.
But what blows me away with that is that, you know, our lives are about so much more than just today and God has a much bigger plan in mind. And, you know, hearing you two talk, it's like he can be with us in our loss. Even though he knows the end of the story, he grieves with us when we're walking through those valleys even though he knows there's a mountaintop experience coming. Because that's our God.
Yeah.
You know? He walks with us through it, and he's compassionate. And even though, he's got something glorious in mind. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, think of the parent that loses a child.
Yeah.
And they know full well that they're going to be in heaven.
Right.
And they're believers. But the pain that parent goes through knowing, though, that that child is dying or dead and—or any family member for that matter, right, that's a loving, caring relationship—it's like, no, the pain is still there even though we know full well that it will be okay. Yeah.
And just to, you know, when I read Scripture, there's no question in my mind that the New Testament believers delineated, there was the most profound delineation for human beings, where you were either saved or you were not. You're either a believer or you're unbeliever. So, this is an important question that needs to be asked. It needs to be answered.
And it's not like nobody will have a choice. It's not like he just lets people go and doesn't give him a choice. We can choose.
Right.
Yeah. Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of the episode?
Okay, I'm gonna, before my closing thought. This, this is a, this is a callback really quick. So, on the topic of, yeah, being kind of lukewarm, there's an allegory that I heard. And so, this is the allegory. I thought it was kind of interesting.
"A man stood in a field of green, green grass. Beautiful light from the sun poured down across the grass. In the middle of the field, there sat a fence dividing the field in half. On one side stood Satan. On the other, God. 'If you come to my side of the fence,' said Satan, 'I'll give you everything you want. If you choose me, everything you have ever desired will be given to you. But if you choose him, you will get none of what I offer you.' The man looked at God and thought to himself, how much would I like to choose him because he is God. But everything I have ever wanted, it all lies on the other side of the fence. So, the man walked over to the fence, pulled himself up, and made himself comfortable. He sat there mocking both Satan and God. 'I don't choose either of you,' he said. The man sat there for a while, refusing to look at either side of the fence, his eyes remaining narrowly ahead. After some time, the man fell. The field was gone, and so was the sun. He fell and fell and fell, and everything got darker and darker. He landed on rocky ground, surrounded by cold, scary darkness. A hot hand gripped his shoulder. It was Satan, smiling. 'What?' the man exclaimed. 'Why am I in hell? I didn't choose you. I chose the fence.' Satan leaned closer. His hot breath whispered into his ear."
Yeah.
"Satan leaned closer. His hot breath whispered into his ear, 'The fence belongs to me.' The man's face went white. 'And now so do you.'"
Now that's terrifying.
Yeah, it's not a joke. None of this is.
It's really good.
Yeah.
It's really good.
Someone showed that to me, yeah, a little while back, but.
And that's, yeah.
Not choosing is choosing.
Yeah. Yeah. So.
And it's like it says in the book of Joel, 3:14. It says,
"Multitudes, multitudes,
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision."
There, that's, the bulk of humanity is in the middle, as it says in the book of Joel there. Multitudes.
Yeah.
So.
Yeah.
Well, I got schooled today.
That was really good.
That was profound.
The kids say that was fire.
That was fire.
Which is appropriate.
It is.
Not sus at all. Not even a little bit sus.
Not even a little bit sus. Oh.
That call back was worth every.
Oh, man.
That wasn't your closing thought?
No, actually, it wasn't.
All right.
Yeah.
Well, closing thought?
Well, the closing thought is, you know. Well, it's interesting because. So, the closing thought that I had was, it had to do with, in the part in the vlog where it says that we have a choice now and to have life spiritually. There's a time coming when we won't have the choice. And, I mean, maybe that does kind of fit into what I just read. But a time is coming when we won't have a choice at all. And it was, it's interesting because—it was really interesting—because when I was reading that, when I was writing that earlier, that part of the vlog, I got, like, choked up there, too. So, there's something about this which is really kind of interesting. So, yeah, you have a choice now. You have. It's. It's. But don't, don't sit on it. It's not. It's not. We don't have forever. Because the choice that we have now is to choose life. Eventually there will not be a choice when it's all said and done. And so, don't, don't sit on this. It's. It's. Yeah, everybody has. I mean, not to, like, put it, like, weird, but, like, we don't get around death.
Yeah.
That's just not, that's not what, that's not how this works. We're not getting around death, and we will be face-to-face with our maker.
All right, closing thoughts, Jami?
There is an urgency in your voice. And the urgency is that all will hear his voice and we all will have to choose. And not choosing is choosing. I think that's pretty clear. At least I got, I got, that came through loud and clear when you read that. And it can be scary because people are very scared of the unknown, but. But Jesus. I mean, but Jesus.
Yeah.
That's all I can say.
And my thoughts are, you know, Jon, that story you just read, that, that's really the crux is that we're talking about terrifying things here. And there is heaven and there is a hell, and none of us talk about it lightly. Jesus tarries because he wills that no one perish and that all come to eternal life. And the invitation is there; the hand is extended. All that you need to do is grab it, and there's no cleanup that needs to be done. The presence of the Holy Spirit is not a subtle presence. When we receive Jesus' gift of life, the Holy Spirit cleanses us up from the inside out, and you won't have to do the work. So, any of you listening, you know, and are wondering, well, did they convince me? Did they not? My prayer for you, if you're listening: so, you just reach out and you're gonna be blown away.
Yeah. I suppose after this conversation, my closing thought would be, like, it, like, I think that word urgency exactly, is like, exactly nails what we're experiencing right now to bring people to Jesus and to let them know who he is. I've personally been going through a little bit of a dark season and I feel like—I don't know if you guys ever look at your life and you're like, but I did what God said to do. And you're like, why is it feeling like this kind of thing? And not to say that everything is bad, because it's definitely not, but, like, almost like a dark season of the soul. And I remember thinking to the Lord, like, I knew that when I would follow you, like, there'd be pain, but I just didn't, I didn't know the cost would be so great. You know, like, if you told me when I was 15 that I'd experience all things that I've experienced since then, I didn't know that the cost would, like, feel like this. And at the, like, in the same breath, I was like, but it's so worth it. Like, it has been so worth it to know the Lord. And so, like, I know that my eternity, like, my eternity is sealed in heaven, but even on this side of heaven, like, the cost of knowing him is so worth it. And even if I have to follow him into harder things or to, like, more painful things or even into death, like, I really, truly can say from the bottom of my heart, I think it'd be so worth it. So, just to like, I guess, like, tag onto what you guys are talking about is, like, the choice for Jesus, like, I've never regretted, not once in my life. So, I would encourage people who are, I guess, on the fence to, like Kathy said, like, reach out or to make the decision and never look back. So, yeah, that'd be my final thought.
All right. Well, that wraps up this episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Thanks for watching, thanks for liking, thanks for subscribing and telling all your friends. We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care, everybody.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to, like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at thedefinepodcast.com.
