Episode Transcript
Through the years, Little Billy, he developed an impressive knack for making wrong choices. Wrong friends at school, wrong answers on tests, wrong side of the bed in the morning.
In the tragic case of Little Billy, Forrest Gump was only half right.
He knew what he was going to get. And every time it was pink nougat.
Little Billy would be well into his late 40s before he would ever truly grasp the concept and ease of a no brainer. But for now, every decision Little Billy made was very much a brainer. And tonight was no exception.
Unfortunately, Little Billy's talent for making wrong choices this particular Christmas Eve left him standing last in line so far from Santa, not even Ralphie could empathize.
As the line began to shrink, so did Little Billy's hopes of getting something special for Christmas. With every step toward Santa, Little Billy's head lowered until he finally made it to the big man.
"Ho, ho. Oh." Santa scooted a little forward on his seat. "Why so sad, little boy?"
Little Billy looked down at his boots. "I'm last. I wouldn't stop gaming. And now there isn't enough time for you to get my present finished before tomorrow. It's impossible."
"But you're last."
"Yeah, I know. Don't rub it in."
"Well, don't you know that the last child to tell Santa what he or she wants for Christmas gets an extra special present?"
"They do?"
"Yes, indeed. Indeed, they do. Because you're last. You can choose one of these special wishes. You can have unlimited toys, a never-ending supply of candy, or infinite wisdom."
Little Billy thought for a moment. Not wanting to make the same mistake again, he said, "Wisdom. Yeah, yeah, I'll take the wisdom."
"I thought you might. Very good. Wisdom is yours." Santa stood. "Now Santa has a big night ahead of him, so he needs to get going. Have a very merry Christmas, Billy."
"Thanks. Merry Christmas to you too, Santa."
Santa wasn't yet out of sight before Little Billy lowered his head and said to himself, "I should have taken the toys."
When I was in junior high, I joined a Christmas wrapping fundraiser at my school. And just to be clear, we aren't talking about some easy fundraisers like car washes or raffles here. A trained monkey could squeeze a few dollars out of one of those. We're talking gift wrapping. A combination one part geometry, one part art, two parts Emily Post.
As soon as I stepped behind the gift-wrapping booth at the mall, I knew I bit off more gingerbread than I could chew. And that being the case, I was happy to simply man the scissors and tape dispenser—the gift-wrapping equivalent of a surgical technologist.
I didn't know how to wrap, but I knew how to assist. And it wasn't long before I hit my stride.
"Tape?"
"Tape."
"Scissors?"
"Scissors."
"Space?"
"Giving you space."
My wrapping partner and I were like McCartney and Lennon. Each perfectly wrapped gift was another chart-topper. But unfortunately, like McCartney and Lennon, my partner left. An Orange Julius was our Yoko Ono. I turned for a quick restock of tape, and just like that, my partner was gone. All that remained was a man holding a My Little Pony in need of immediate attention.
"Can you help me?" the man asked. I stared at the creature. "Please, it's for my daughter. There isn't much time."
I snapped out of it. "Yes, of course. Put her down there on the table." I quickly grabbed the nearest roll of wrapping paper and spread a sheet roughly the size of the purple equine.
"You've done this before, right?" the man asked.
"Sir,"
"Roger. My name's Roger."
"Roger," I positioned the pony squarely on the table. "This isn't my first rodeo." I began the procedure. Between my knowledge of ER, MacGyver and Bing Crosby's Merry Christmas album, I felt my confident response was within reason. Everything I'd observed over the past 40 minutes was about to be put to the test, and despite operating alone, I was ready.
My scissors glided through the decorative wrap like a Yoshihiro knife through a tender roast beast. I measured, cut, taped with all the grace and mastery of a seasoned elf. I couldn't help but smile. The pony smiled sappily back at me. About halfway through, I slipped into a trance-like state that could only be described as Hallmarkian. Ambient sound faded, my vision focused, my senses aligned like stripes on a candy cane, all focused on one thing and one thing only: Christmas cheer. At one point, sugar plums danced in my head, which, as anyone will tell you, is a rarity inside the conscious mind. The spirit of Christmas had taken control. And for a brief moment, I was one with the Yuletide.
When I opened my eyes, the final triangle fold was made and secured. I wiped a single bead of sweat from my forehead. The man and I looked down at the table. Our eyes then met.
"I did everything I could for her. I'm, I'm so sorry." If you had gotten here just a little bit earlier.
"Yeah, I'll just wrap it again at home. Thanks."
Fortunately for him, when he did the rewrapping, he'd be able to use the scissors that I accidentally taped inside the package.
It's been said, "Don't judge a book by its cover." And if that book happens to be a gift, research shows that the same metaphor can be applied to its wrapping. In an article published by the Journal of Consumer Psychology, researchers Rixom, Mas, and Rixom studied the effects of gift wrapping on how recipients felt about the gift.
The researchers found that a poorly wrapped gift from a loved one is liked significantly more than a gift wrapped neatly. Joke's on you, Roger.
Neatness, it appears, is overrated. But this is nothing new.
Seventeenth century author and theologian François Fénelon once said, "Exactness and neatness in moderation is a virtue, but carried to extremes narrows the mind." While I'd imagine Fénelon expressed this sentiment after reading an illuminating portion of Scripture, I like to think that he mumbled it to himself while trying to wrap a tricycle on Christmas Eve.
But whether inspired by the Book of Philippians or the peak of frustration, Fénelon has a point. While exactness and neatness certainly have their place—Marie Kondo would agree—taken too far, we run the risk of missing the forest for the trees, or the gift for the wrapping. Some of life's greatest gifts come oddly wrapped—loving discipline from Hebrews 12:10-11, personal weakness found in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, and unanswered prayers found in Isaiah 55:8-9, to name a few. But this should come as no surprise. After all, the greatest gift given to humanity also arrived unusually wrapped over 2,000 years ago. Sadly, many missed the gift for the wrapping that day, too. And this gift was not only from a loved one, but from love himself.
So, when it comes to gifts this year, whether from beneath the tree or heaven above, if it looks like it was wrapped by a junior high boy, you're certainly sure to be in for a treat.
Merry Christmas.
Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
I'm your host. My name is Chris. Once again, Jon, psychologist and author, is in the studio, and we're joined once again with Robyn Nelson, special education teacher; Rogelio Navarro, LMHCA; and Mandy Michaels of Reach Ministry. Welcome everybody. We are continuing to take a slight detour from our study in the Book of John, and we are going to look at the Christmas story today and focusing on the Book of Luke and Merry Christmas, everybody.
Indeed, Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas, everybody. There may be some scholarly disputes on when Jesus was actually born, but we celebrate it here in the west and around the world.
We prefer it cold.
December 25th. Yes.
Feels right.
Get all bundled up. We got our traditions, but nevertheless, we will look closely at what the Bible has to say about the birth of Jesus Christ.
It was a snowy night.
Well.
Somewhere.
So, let's look at the book of Luke today, chapter 2. Going to read out of the ESV, verses 1-21.
"In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration when"
Oof. Oof.
That guy.
Quirinius.
Yeah.
"Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to be registered, each to his own town. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.
And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. And the angel said to them, 'Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.' And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
'Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!'
When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, 'Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.' And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.
And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb."
This is the account of the birth of Jesus. And we're focusing on the word, "wrapped," "wrapped," which is in that account there. And so, Dr. Jon, you had a blog on that word. So, we'll take it with opening comments around the table and go from there.
Yeah. All right. Well, yeah. Merry Christmas, everybody.
So, the word, "wrapped," what I was kind of thinking when I was writing this, this post, it had to do with things being, good things being wrapped poorly or unusually. And so, I think that Jesus' birth and his coming to this earth was essentially an unusually wrapped gift for the world.
And the more I was kind of thinking about it too, the more I was kind of seeing how it's almost like a foreshadowing of his ministry and then so on. Then our relationship with him, we can take some cues from that as well. So, yeah, so he came to the earth in an unusual way, right?
He's King of Kings, and yet he was born in a manger and animals all around. And the individuals who saw him first were shepherds. And so, they were more of the lowly of, you know, the professions. And so, it was almost as if it happened in a way that no one was really expecting. And some would say, "well, this is a poorly wrapped gift," and yet the gift is the greatest gift that we've ever been given.
And so, then when I say, it seemed kind of like a foreshadowing, because then you look at Jesus' ministry and he did some unusual things. There were some great things wrapped unusually, and one of them, in the book of John, John 9:1-7.
"As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus answered, 'It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.' Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud and said to him, 'Go, wash in the pool of Siloam' (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing."
And so, to me, it's like another really unusually wrapped gift. The man got his sight.
And then another account is in Mark, Mark 7:31-36 in the ESV. It reads,
"Then he returned from the region of Tyre and went through Sidon to the Sea of Galilee, in the region of the Decapolis. And they brought to him a man who was deaf and had a speech impediment, and they begged him to lay his hand on him. And taking him aside from the crowd privately, he put his fingers into his ears, and after spitting touched his tongue. And looking up to heaven, he sighed and said to him, 'Ephphatha,'"
Pretty sure that's what that says. Right? Ephphatha? Yeah.
I concur.
"that is, 'Be opened.' And his ears were opened, his tongue was released, and he spoke plainly."
So, I love how there's so many different accounts of Jesus doing amazing things, but unusual. And that goes all the way back to when he came to the earth unusually wrapped. And if I may, one more little jaunt down this road is,
Your name's on the podcast. I guess you can do whatever you,
You may.
If I may, would that be okay with everybody?
Let's object.
Dr. Jon has something to say.
No, and then. So, another. So, then if I take this a little bit farther along, how might Jesus be working in our lives and giving us gifts unusually? And there was a part in the, in the vlog where I mentioned some of these things, and I briefly say the Scripture that it's from, but I just want to read those really quick, too. So, first is Hebrews 12:10-11 in the ESV, which reads,
"For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."
So, discipline is one of those interesting gifts that we get. But it might not be wrapped the way that we would like it.
Personal weakness. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, which reads. Wait for it. Which reads,
"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me."
So, then our weaknesses can be another gift. But it's unusually wrapped as well. And then finally, unanswered prayers. We find this in Isaiah 55:8-9.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
So, from Jesus' birth to his ministry to our relationship with him, we see a lot of different examples and time and time again, how good things are wrapped unusually, if we can have the eyes to see what he's doing.
Taking from that, I would go back to the shepherds that the angels met with. They were actually Levitical shepherds, which meant that they were actually raising the lambs that would be used for Passover sacrifice. And in doing so, they would take them to the cave where the moms would give birth, and they would actually swaddle them so that they were without blemish and wouldn't get a bruise. So, Jesus was actually born right where the Passover lambs were also born and also wrapped in swaddling cloths to be kept pure.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's cool.
Cool.
Cool.
Yeah, yeah. It's a very unusual God. I mean, in Jesus, we have a very unusual God in the sense of, like, what seems to be, like, just brokenness and. And even just, I think from an earthly perspective, a lot of people were probably seeing it as weakness, too. Like, you know, well, look, he can't save himself. He's up there on the cross now. And just this image of, like, you know, like, you know, the thrust in his side and the bleeding and, you know, all these things. Like, you know, essentially people were waiting for this powerful king. Like, the Jews were always waiting for this, like, conqueror who was gonna just fight, you know, blood, sweat. I mean, like, literally physically fight and win on earth. And it's very unusual, like, what seems like utter weakness and destruction or apparently even despair to a lot of people who are following Jesus. Like, "well, what are we going to do now?" And it's like that. That is the perfect image of strength. Like, it is weird that love wrapped itself like perfect strength wrapped in self, in the appearance of weakness.
Right.
And I think that, yeah, that's what stands out.
Yeah.
Yeah. I suppose I was going in a similar direction as you guys with that thought of. The Jews were waiting for a very specific type of messiah to come. They had an image in their mind of this king that would, like, potentially overthrow the Roman government. And what they got was a baby. And it just makes me think on how often I'm, like, looking for something or God to do something in my life, and then he might be doing it. And it's just. I'm looking for the wrong thing, that he's answering prayers in ways I'm just like. And I don't think it's malicious. I don't think that it's like a, "this isn't good enough." It's like, I just have an idea in my head of what I'm expecting God to do, and he very well may be doing exactly what I'm praying for, but I'm just not seeing it in the way that I'm expecting. So that was my initial thought.
That's good.
Yeah. Think about that word, "wrapped." And I just think of some similar words.
With a "w" in front, right?
With a "w." Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it'd be super weird if Jesus came to earth rapping.
But yeah, wrapped, concealed, hidden. These are other similar words to wrapped.
And I think of Proverbs 25:2.
"It is the glory of God to conceal things,
but the glory of kings is to search things out."
Another verse, John 1:18.
"No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known."
I think it's interesting that God's plan to save the world was wrapped, concealed, hidden, in a sense. And it was not obvious what was inside. It was not obvious that this was God's plan unfolding. On the outside a lot of people missed it. According to the Gospel account, there.
There was just a lot of mystery in God's plan for salvation. Those who really studied the Scriptures knew that the Messiah was going to come in a certain way. But Jesus wasn't accepted by his hometown. He wasn't accepted by a lot of people.
It was a mystery. It was wrapped.
I think it's interesting also that Jesus as a human, it says it's the glory of kings to search it out or to make it known. It's almost like God hid it and then it became revealed. But it was God doing it. But not until God became a human did it become revealed. A king, right? He is the King of Kings, King of the Jews. In a sense, when God became a king on the planet in earthly form, he made this, what was concealed, wrapped, he made it known through that incarnation of him. That's when it happened.
Prior to that, it says, like in the Book of Job 37:23-24 in the ESV,
"The Almighty—we cannot find him;
he is great in power;
justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate.
Therefore men fear him;
he does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit.”
And so, these things are the mystery of the Gospel. The mystery of Jesus is what, is how Paul refers to it also. He uses the word, it's "mustérion."
Mustérion.
This is in Colossians 4:2-4, out of the ESV.
"Continue steadfastly in prayer, being watchful in it with thanksgiving. At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison— that I may make it clear, which is how I ought to speak."
So, this mystery, it was wrapped, it was hidden. And that word "mustérion," it's, it doesn't mean like permanently hidden. It means, it will, it can be known, and it is known.
It, it says the definition there, usage, "a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the [New Testament]: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation."
"It's not something unknowable," says the HELPS Word-studies. "Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it."
So, there's a certain revelation of what was hidden, concealed, wrapped and it's, there's more to say on it. But I'll leave it there for now and then I'll circle back.
Yeah, I mean the, the concealed bit. Again, I guess it kind of goes in my mind back to just how it continues to be, when you see it through a certain lens, you kind of see it happening like, "oh wow, this actually does make a lot of sense." And it's brilliant how it was revealed and laid out and I guess a little bit to all of our, everybody's kind of thoughts about like weakness and it coming unusually.
Yeah, it continued to be revealed kind of mysteriously even up to his death. And the ultimate redemption for us, it was the ultimate act of weakness—in theory or in how it looks—is death on a cross. And so, it's just like time and time again it's like God had this plan, they all had this plan from the get-go. And we, if we have, if we can sit back and look at it through the right lens. What an amazing thing to see unfold. And we have an amazing vantage point because we have the Old and the New Testament and we can see it through a lens if we, if we are willing to look at the interesting revelation that he gives to us all the way. And then I guess in my mind too that leads us to. Well, there's only, there's one book left that we haven't really seen the total like outlaying of. And that's Revelation. And so, it's if we have the eyes to see and we're trying to, we're trying to unlock the mystery, we're trying to seek it out. What an amazing next step that we have because the revelation isn't—God's plan isn't done yet.
But how he has so far laid it out to us. We can totally have complete faith and trust that the next, like what he says is going to happen moving forward because it happened exactly how he said it would, leading up to Jesus. So. Yeah.
That's a good word. Yeah. Like the concealed part of it. You know, the Bible has told us about Jesus coming so many times. There's I don't know how many hundreds of prophecies talking about it. So, in the same way, in Revelation, we have so much information and yet there is still that part of it where God wants us to be in the Word and God wants us to put the, connect the dots. And God wants us to find those things. And God wants us even with Jesus, you know, we can, we don't know Jesus as much as we, we can in our lifetime. And just being in the Word and knowing who he is and being, searching out that matters is a part of that gift, right? That we still have today, that even the shepherds didn't have that, right? They had that moment with a baby. We get to have, you know, this incredible Word that we get to study and get to know him on a very intimate, deep level, that. So precious. What an amazing gift that keeps giving.
Yeah.
When you said connect the dots, I think it also kind of is, really applies to us like in our personal lives when we, you know, like, like just the whole thing around how God's ways are so far above our ways and what seemed to be a certain way to us, you know, it's like we, we're trying to connect the dots. But I think in so many cases, it's like we have to surrender whatever dot we see or whatever dot we're on. It's like, "okay, God, like, I don't actually know where this dot leads." And surrendering the dot so like God can kind of paint the bigger picture is actually really hard to do. And I think we're all challenged to do that. But also, I just remembered the really beautiful image that the prophet Isaiah paints of like the suffering servant like in Isaiah 53. And I just, it's so rich, like the way it's described. I just want to pull it up for a second here.
Yeah.
So, Isaiah 53,
"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem."
Well, I'll probably stop there because there's, it's really long. But I, but I think it's just a really powerful image of, he wasn't what he seemed.
Right. I mean even, even his personal appearance was unusually wrapped, if you want to say it that way. I mean he could have been born in a stable and like the socioeconomic surroundings of his birth could have been one way. And he could have been like, wow, you see him across the way. Like dang, that guy I'll follow. Because we know psychologically there's something about facial features that make people trust an individual more than others. Whether it's from like how the, how close the eyes are together or if they're more, farther apart, it just, there's a certain knee jerk reaction of trust by looking at certain facial features. And so. But to that portion of Scripture, it's like not even his looks. It's like, it's like unusually wrapped from A to Z. So that's, that's really, that's really interesting for sure.
I actually love that. I love that Jesus was such an ordinary person because it really makes you connect with him more. He gets it. And not to be part of that. Gonna go on a tangent, that whole get "He Gets Us' thing, but he really does. He understands. He understands what our lives are like because he walked. We're kind of walking around his shoes in a sense because he's already walked it out. He knows what life is like. And he didn't come as some debutante. He came as just regular person that anyone could connect with and understand and be. And he could connect with them in such a deeper way.
Yeah. Matthew chapter 11, starting in verse 25.
"At that time Jesus declared, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.'"
So, the, there's that, there's another word there. Hidden, concealed, wrapped. And who can see what is underneath the wrapping? Well, it's the little children. It's not the wise.
At least those who are wise in their own heart, who think that they're wise. And it's an interesting plan of God to do that. It's like, so God's the infinite one. He's the one with the greatest wisdom. And he doesn't like want. He's not like waiting to see who can come as close to him in wisdom. Like, who's. Who's my closest match?
Right.
In being as wise as me in and of themselves. Like.
Right.
Who can. Who can muster up their own thoughts and match my intellect and wisdom? It's.
Who is God-like among you?
Yeah, it's the children that he revealed this to which he revealed this.
It's not those who are. Who think that they're wise and who are conceited. It's those who are childlike and are willing to have the fear of the Lord being the beginning of their wisdom, basically.
Right. Yep.
And so that's his plan.
It was the shepherds who. You know, the lowly people, the shepherds who got in kind of first on the good news and revealed to children is what Jesus says there in the Book of Matthew. Some interesting thoughts there, I think, on the plan.
Yeah.
Yeah. In Proverbs 1. Just kind of piggybacking off of where wisdom, where it begins, right? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
"fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Hear, my son, your father's instruction,
and forsake not your mother's teaching,
for they are a graceful garland for your head
and pendants for your neck.
My son, if sinners entice you,
do not consent."
So, yeah, the fear of the Lord at the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. And I think it's really cool. David Jeremiah, Pastor, he has a note there. It says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. He says, this first presents the basic premise of the book. The Lord has all the answers to life. He is not only the beginning, but also the source of all knowledge and the only one who understands all mysteries. To fear the Lord is to have a sense of awe and utter respect for him as the Holy One. So that when he speaks, it is the final word. Those who revere God in this way, heed his instruction and can rightly understand their fellowship, can rightly understand their relationship to him and the Word he has made and the world he has made.
So, yeah, it's. It's the fear of the Lord. It's to.
Basically, yeah, it's going to God with everything, knowing. And it's. It's an utter respect for him knowing that he's the one, that he has. He holds all the answers to all the mysteries. And so that makes complete sense. But there needs to be that baseline.
It's the wisdom enough to know that you don't know everything. Like if you. If you're wise in your own sight, then you're not really needing to depend on God or ask God for wisdom.
Right.
And like, when Solomon asked for wisdom, like, it's wisdom in and of itself to ask for wisdom. It's like being granted a wish and then being like, well, I wish for more wishes. Like, it's. It's powerful. It's a powerful. And I think. I think with that, it's the seeking of the Lord that He loves. Like, with that verse about it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and it's the glory of kings to search it out. Like, God loves to be pursued. And so, I think that that's why he. Like, he could make himself known and very obvious he could have done that. Like, he could have very well made it so that he was. That we would all be drawn to him. But I do think it's the desire of the Lord to be pursued by us as well, that it's not for all that he can offer us, but for who he truly is. And.
Yeah, I forgot where I was going with that. But there was a thought. There's a train of thought, and then it left me.
Yeah, it makes you want to open up a can of Whiz.
Whiz?
It does?
Wisdom.
Oh.
You didn't catch that?
I was thinking Cheez Whiz.
Is that what the cool kids are calling it these days?
Yeah. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, that's right.
You know, what you read made me think of Lot's wife. You know, God spoke and he said, do not look back. And there was a reason for that because he knew what would happen. And she didn't take him at his word. She didn't have that fear of him to understand that wisdom that only God has and cost her everything.
Yeah.
You know, on a personal level, Dr. Jon, when you were talking about 2 Corinthians and how, like, in weakness, you know, strength is made perfect. And also, the discipline part where you were saying, like, it seems like cause for suffering and pain when, like, you know, we're corrected. Even though God corrects those, you know, who he loves, there's something really personal about that for me. Like, there's a sense that, like, sometimes it seems like this needless, maybe inconvenience, being inconvenienced at times, and like, trying to follow God in that way can seem a bit like, oh, man. Like, that doesn't even. Doesn't feel good, or it doesn't even seem to make sense in the moment. And.
And so, I mean, that is just a part of the struggle that, like, I think, like, daily. That can be real, I think, for a lot of us. But then the other thing I was going to say about that is it brings me back to the book of Wisdom. And so just to read this, like, little snippet from Wisdom chapter 3, where it talks about those who follow Christ. And it says here,
"But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,
and no torment will ever touch them.
In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died,
and their departure was thought to be an affliction,
and their going from us to be their destruction;"
Oh, "their going from us to be their destruction;"
So, like those who have died,
"but they are at peace.
For though in the sight of men they were punished,
their hope is full of immortality."
And so, even though it seems like for men, they're just like, you know, they're just being punished. You're suffering because you're walking the narrow path, like.
Right.
You know, what a waste of time for you.
Right. Yeah.
Your gift is unwrapped.
Well, sure. It's like the, like the Colosseum back when Rome was torturing and basically making sport of Christians, putting, being put to death by. And whether it's gladiators or lions or whatever means that they came by, the people that saw those deaths, they're like, wow. Well, they got punished for, you know, from making the wrong choice in life. But it was just that their, that's just the beginning for those individuals for sure. Those people didn't understand exactly where they were going, just like you were saying, eternity was their reward and what they experienced on Earth, it might seem like cruel punishment and just there's nothing to it, but we know that that's not the case.
This earth is obviously, for the believer, we know that this is just a moment in time and the pain and the suffering, it will, it will subside and it will be behind us for sure. And in the meantime, I know I've kind of mentioned this before, but if we can embrace the difficult things in life and we can thank God for every pain and struggle we go through, I'm telling you, like, we're, we become pretty much untouchable. So, if we can just start thanking God for every trial and tribulation because he's at work doing something with that, it's not just for nothing, even if it's not by his hand. God works all things together, for those who love him are called according to his purpose. It's like that there's. We can't lose. We just can't lose. If we maintain the right attitude and viewpoint of it.
Plus, the death of those people. God used it as the catalyst to explode the church, and that's why we have the church around the world today. So, God uses, it tells us, God uses everything that the enemy throws at us for the good of those who love him. So, all those pain in our lives, it isn't meaningless. It has actual immediate impact, not just in ourselves, but on others, especially when we have that attitude and we take that posture of I'm grateful.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yep. If we can, yeah, pain is one of those things that's an unusually wrapped gift if we see it as such.
It's true. And it's. I mean, when you can kind of just accept within yourself that pain is a part of life, then you do take that shock factor out of it. Like, you're already. You don't need to be, like, blindsided every time something happens. And it can help you to accept it for what it is sooner. And then when you also, like, you're right. Not every painful thing comes from God. But I do think that when we shift our mindset to say this did have to pass through God's hands before. Like. Like, he.
He. Like, he'll allow it or he won't. And if he did allow this painful thing to happen to me, it must be to my benefit somehow. Like, it must be for. And I can trust that it is for the good, however God, and how God would define good, not how I would define good, necessarily.
Right. Might not be, perhaps not even necessarily for our good, but for his good.
Exactly.
For some benefit.
For some benefit. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, you're looking for that unusual gift, the wrapping in there each painful moment.
Let's get this unwrapped already.
It's kind of like there's some ugly babushka dolls, and you just got to keep going. You got to get.
That's right.
The very little ones, that baby in the manger, you know, like.
Yeah.
But the rest of them aren't, don't look very good.
Is that a thing?
You know the little Russian, nesting dolls?
But they're like babushka?
Isn't that grandmother?
Yeah, it's grandmother.
Like a rough babushka, like, time and then actually comes out a Jesus. Is that a thing?
No, no, I've never seen that. But I mean, it's metaphorically.
I thought it was like a Mexican thing.
Gotta keep going.
We have abuelitas, you know, keep unwrapping them. The next one's got to be better.
I actually have seen that. I've had friends who, like, have wrapped their presents like box after box after box after box and you're waiting till like the final gift. And yeah, it sucks if you go through all that.
There's nothing there.
Yeah.
Your, your blog joke. It's interesting that your joke talked about wisdom.
Right.
And we're talking about wisdom.
That is interesting. That really does kind of flow even better than I had ever imagined.
How wonderful.
What a gift.
Well, yeah, the, the, the blog talked about wisdom in joke form, but it's in the blog nonetheless. And it's. Wisdom isn't a topic we typically associate with the Christmas story. And you know, but there's there, there are the three wise men, the magi, right?
Well, it's a big part of it.
And there's, there's a lot of wisdom that is to be found in the Christmas story in that it's hidden from those who are self-proclaimed wise people in a sense that they think they know exactly what God's going to do.
Right.
And you know, Jesus later said to the Pharisees, paraphrasing somewhat, but like, you search the Scriptures, thinking by them you have eternal life. I'm right in front of you. The Scriptures talk about me is what he said.
Yeah.
And it's like the mystery is what Paul calls it in Colossians 1:24-29 out of the ESV.
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me."
The mystery is that God is saving the world. It wasn't just going to be the nation of Israel. It wasn't going to be limited to those adhering to the law. The, Christ is fulfilling the law. And the good news is for the whole world, it's everyone. And that's like this mystery. It was concealed. People did not know how this was going to happen exactly, right? And yet the mystery was revealed in Christ.
Yeah.
So.
The gift is for everybody.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. Well, and to your, to your point too, like, about Jesus being right in front of, in front of him. I mean, it's like Pilate too. Like, what is truth? It's like he's saying that to Jesus. Like, the irony of that is, like, truth is right before him. And so, truth, the revelation, it's all. It's all in front of those who know what they're looking at and those that perhaps aren't wise. Then go back to the fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom. And that's a good place to start and ask yourself, why is it that I don't have an awe and respect for the one that created me and created everything? You get to that point, then you can start, that's a good place to start building off of. But yeah, right in front of our faces.
Yeah.
And that's. That's gonna be the same thing when the events of Revelation unfold. There's going to be a, it was right in front of my face the entire time.
Right.
And I didn't see it or I chose not to see it more accurately.
Yeah. The entire Old Testament pointed towards Jesus. Like, the entire Old Testament.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of reasons why people might stop fearing God or fearing the Lord. They might. Cynicism, for example, thinking that, you know, some of these common complaints come up in the Bible as you, as you read it. Like thinking that God rewards the evil and punishes the good people and that could cause a certain bad attitude, I guess, and lack of fear of God in that case. Like, what difference does it make? Like, God says, God gets exhausted by hearing people say, like, what people say, that it makes no difference to serve God.
Right.
And that is the opposite of the starting point of wisdom. Right?
Yep.
I think it's that getting to a place where you think you know better than God. Also, that idea of. And I've seen a lot of friends kind of walk through this too, and they're, you expect God to do something and you're not willing to do what he's told you to do. So, you're not getting the results you want. And so, you go off and do things your own way. And your way seems to work in getting quote, unquote, what you wanted. And it's that justification of, well, I tried Christianity or I tried what the Bible said, or I went to church for however long and then get you to that space where, I mean, right in front of you, it may look like things are working out, but you're walking in disobedience to the Lord. And that is justification enough for you that since like you can see it in front of you that, yeah, you. I guess then you think you know better than the Lord. Even though, I mean.
Yeah.
This is like about a blip in time, you know, so it's that, it's that pride like that just. I don't know.
All those people that say, "I'm a good person."
Yeah.
"I'm gonna go to heaven."
Yeah.
What is good?
Yeah.
How do you define that? How do you compare yourself to others? So many questions.
Yeah. Yep. Putting ourselves in the God place.
Yeah.
It's amazing. Doing a Bible study like this and slowly going through like a book. But then. Yeah. Jumping like, you know, to the birth account too. How themes seem to just keep on recurring. And it's so interesting to me because it goes back to pride. It goes back to putting myself in the God place. It's what I want, what I feel.
Yeah.
Like when you're talking about, you know, people that will say, "it didn't turn out the way that I wanted it to, but then I started doing it my way." For a minute, it might, it might seem and appear that it's like, "well, yeah, this is the right way." Well, what's that based off of? Probably feelings.
Right.
And if I feel good, that means that it must be good. But we know that feelings aren't facts or we should know that. And so, feelings can be deceptive and the heart is deceptive above all things. And so, it might feel good for a second, but it's like. It's like a. It's like a dose of like sugar. It's like sugar rush. It's like, it's not. It's not real sustaining. Like it might actually feel good. Sure. But it's not the ultimate good.
Well, and I think of that danger of then you essentially exchange your relationship with the Lord who is the author of all good and pure and perfect things for whatever this temporary thing is. It just makes me want to be very cautious to continue to pursue God's wisdom for me, even though all of my feelings are raging against like, what God says is good sometimes.
Turns into idol worship.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it's really. It's really interesting how it all, it all boils down to the same old thing that we've been dealing with since the beginning of, you know, man on earth, is idol worship. It's not God.
Even in heaven.
Yeah.
That was Lucifer's sin. First sin in heaven. First sin on earth.
I always feel like I, like I have to try to advocate a little bit for like non-believers or something. Because like. Like, I heard this thing once about how, like, God is obvious enough that if you want to see him, like, you will see his presence somehow, but. But also hidden enough that if you don't want to see God's presence, the reality of it, then you won't. Like, you just won't see it. And. But I suppose, like, for folks who. I mean, I actually. Well, I used to be an unbeliever in my teens especially. I remember just walking out, just throwing it all away. The faith. Throwing away the faith. And at some point, like, I think maybe non-believers can get the impression that, like, people who are talking about wisdom and like, being wise, it's almost like they're looking at it as, like, oh, well, you just want to make yourself bigger. Like, I think that can be a misinterpretation. Like, you want to be like, higher and better and more righteous and whatever the language is. But I think the other really interesting part about that is, like, from a spiritual sense, because it maybe doesn't seem like what it is, but from a spiritual sense, we're not looking to put ourselves higher. I think at the end of the day, it's like, basically Christ.
There's this place where Christ isn't even trying to glorify Himself. He's trying to glorify the Father. And so, I think just the idea of following Jesus isn't about, like, you know, obtaining glory. It's like, no, it's like surrendering and letting go more than it is about anything. And, and just the quick. The quick little bit that I have to. I have to say now, is this Hebrews 5:5, where it says,
"So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
'You are my Son,
today I have begotten you'”;
And just the fact that God sent his son. And it's kind of going back to this childlike faith where it's not about me rising up to power because I'm so pure and Christian. It's like, no, it's like that faith, like a child of. Okay, so as a son, because God begets us as his son or daughter. Yeah. And so, I think that's important. And I think it's maybe hard for non-believers to see like, "what's your point with following wisdom?"
Right. Well, and I think, yeah, because I think from like a, an earthly standard, I mean, why get wisdom? Why be wise? Why be smart, all those things? Well, it's personal gain. I mean, really, it's how can I—not everybody who's a non-believer thinks this way—but like, how can I, how can I climb the ladder? How can I best the person that I'm trying to, you know, to, you know, get farther along in life? What do I have to do to get that next goal?
Yeah, because wisdom for outside of Christ is to elevate ourselves, and then wisdom within Christ is to elevate him. And so, I guess that's kind of what it comes down to too is the perception of what wisdom is towards the believer might be, well, it's just for your own gain. But really. Well, no, it's to elevate him.
Who are you glorifying?
Right, yeah.
Just with this thought of things being hidden.
And Jesus upon, you know, his ministry, he's still revealing mysteries in a sense. It says here in Matthew, chapter 13:34-35 in the ESV.
"All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:
'I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.'”
And then in verse 44, he's talking about hidden things again.
“'The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.'"
There are things that are hidden, like the kingdom is hidden and it's now been revealed in Jesus, the gospel, the good news.
And it still can be missed. Like it's still possible to miss it. It's still possible to not seek and find it. But for those who do want to seek that which is hidden, it's like not obvious in the world system. It's not obvious. It's not like some, like the world system kind of. It would promote like a self-actualization at the top of the pinnacle. Right? I mean, from a psychological standpoint, isn't that the top of the, the Maslow's hierarchy?
Yeah.
I think he added like a pinnacle, didn't he? Like some kind of spiritual thing. But he didn't.
Yeah, not everybody adheres to Maslow, but. Yeah, but, but that's, that, that's kind of like self-actualization is a big thing.
And so, anything that, I mean, according to that goal, if it serves that purpose, then that would be what gets pursued and that, you know, that could be a good thing. You know, it could be. But if it's at odds with eternal life.
Yeah.
Then don't do those things. You know, that's not a good use of your time and resources, right?
To just be like. What would be some examples of like putting time and effort into self-actualization? Like it, like self-improvement, self-help books, just always trying to improve yourself.
Yeah, probably. Or just even like years and years and years of therapy.
Okay.
I mean, I mean seriously, like if it's. At some point, not everybody needs like an extended period of time with therapy, but they can say, well, I just need to keep on improving myself, myself and myself. And at some point, for most everybody, not everybody, but for most, it's like, no, it's time to, it's time to keep moving forward now, quote, unquote, become your own therapist.
But yeah, we can get locked into these cycles of, we can almost call safety blankets where it's like, but I need this. Well, says who, exactly? And what exactly? Whatever that need, you know, fill in the blank there.
But yeah. Self-help.
So that's like the, that's, that's the obvious thing. Like.
Sure.
Like that's not hidden. Like everybody can probably get on board with at least at first the idea of self-improvement and you know, and to put their focus and energy into the self.
Whereas that which is hidden is glorifying God and helping others and serving others. That's sort of the kingdom is hidden, right?
Right.
It's not so obvious. There's not a lot of commercials to get money to help you with your process towards finding the kingdom. You know what I mean? It's a hidden thing. But there's plenty of money in the sense of making oneself better.
Right.
You know, I'm not saying that they're polar opposites, but I'm saying that it's possible to miss the that which is hidden if you're focused on a priority of self-, dare I say, idolization.
Well, I think it's interesting that a lot of mental health issues, it is self-focused. I mean the two big ones, anxiety and depression, they're completely self-focused. And I think that's fascinating. And it's, it's, it's just a product of what it is because when we're hurting, like physically, right? We'll go inwards. Like we'll, we'll cover, you know, the, the part that's hurting. Right? Well, emotionally we'll do the same thing. We go inwards. "I feel horrible, I feel anxious." And so, a lot, I mean, case in point with anxiety, just to use that as an example, you know, someone that has social anxiety, you go to a party, you encourage them to talk to people, come up with questions to ask people in the party. Pretend like you are there trying to make somebody else feel at ease, so you're going to purposely put your focus on somebody else. It's fascinating that a lot of mental health issues, one of the byproducts is self-focus. And we're not going to find the kingdom inward. It's going to always be outward. And so, I think, yeah, I think that's an interesting bit for sure.
Helping others and glorifying God. These are things that would counteract the anxiety of being self-focused.
That's why I'm a Christian therapist is because it doesn't stop with us. It can't. I mean I'll always respect the wishes of somebody who's not a believer for sure. But it's like just so you know, we're fighting with both hands tied behind our back. I can only take anybody so far if we can't bring Jesus in the equation. I mean, talk about a short ceiling. Tools are great, but they're not going to, they're not going to be the, by far, the answer, ultimately.
You know, and you're looking at yourself. It's works, right? It's works-based. Can you work on being a better person so that you can attain something that you can attain on your own? And that's what Jesus' death did for us, right? Is gave it to us when we didn't deserve it. I actually heard a fact recently that if you spend 15 minutes in dedicated prayer for eight weeks every day for eight weeks, it'll change the chemistry of your brain. So, if you'll stop looking at yourself and start looking to God, God himself is going to bring that for you, what you're looking for.
Yeah. "'Be still, and know that I am God.'"
Yeah.
I think that that's a very powerful thing to remember for sure. Yeah.
Especially like in that self-focus like I think the brain likes to kind of like ruminate at that point. There's a lot of rumination and, and I mean I know this from experience too but like there's a lot of that just spinning around, spiraling thoughts in your head because you're just focused on you and how you think and being thinking better. And it's like you, you have to turn your, your view towards something greater.
Well, and then if you think of in Genesis when Adam and Eve were walking in the garden, they were naked and they felt no shame. But when they went and ate from the tree, one of God's first questions was, who told you you were naked. And it's when they became that, like that awareness is what brought shame to them. It's like that the focus is now suddenly on themselves rather than on God and the other person with them. I think that, I don't know, that's always just kind of struck me that that's interesting that when the focus becomes on you, that's when all those insecurities and the shame, the depression, the anxiety can really grab hold of you.
The mind likes to obsess on its own.
Well, yeah. And, you know, as it's said, neurons that fire together wire together. And so, we have this propensity. I mean, we will connect things. And that's where it's what we focus on and what we think about that's going to be our knee jerk reaction over time. And that's why, you know, in positive psychology, you talk about. We got to. You got to think about the positives, the gratitudes, because you need to rewire the neurons because somebody who's stuck in depression, that's, what they ruminate on is just, it's just the negative. To fight for the positive, that will rewire the neurons so that you'll start to actually notice the positives and start to fire more. So, to your point, Mandy, it's like, yeah, when we focus on Christ, that's rewiring our brain chemistry. And it's essential to get through this life, you know, as unscathed as possible. We're not going to get completely unscathed out of this whole thing, but, man, to not have Christ, I mean, it's almost like hats off to people who do this without him, because I don't know how they do it.
Right.
That's just, it's. It's incredible to me.
I have a friend, Katie, who was in a car accident when she was 16, which was almost 17 years ago, and she was told she wasn't gonna ever walk again. She was a paraplegic. She can't even open her hands completely. And she had someone kind of challenge her, like, "what are you gonna do about it? You gonna be living in bitterness and anger or you're gonna do something about it?" And she said, "what can I do?" And he said, "well, you can start being grateful. What are three things you're grateful for?" And she practices to this day, three things that she's grateful for. And it really changed her, so much so that you'll get around her and have a conversation with her and she's asking all about you, and then you turn and ask about her and she has this amazing news that she's been waiting to share because she's so, you know, looking at you and what you're, what's going on in your life first. It's really beautiful.
Well, Merry Christmas, everybody.
Closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of wrapped, and or wisdom?
Yeah, I mean, took some interesting turns for sure.
It did.
Yeah. That's why I love these things, is you're not really sure where a Bible study and conversation goes to. Yeah. To your earlier point, I did not think that we're going to be talking about wisdom. We were talking about wrapped. So, I do think that, like my closing thoughts, I think have primarily to do with the gifts that don't seem like gifts. I think the unusual gifts, I think blessings in disguise, I think is really what I would want to leave listeners with, is look for the blessings in disguise because there's lots out there and particularly with your relationship with Christ or if you don't have a relationship with Christ, consider it because even the difficult things are turned to good things. That's very clear. And so. Yep. Look for the good in the difficulty. Look for the good in the strange. Because good is always found for those who are in Christ.
Yeah.
Yeah, I heard about this and I wanted to share because it's more of what Jesus gave for us. It says he died on a tree because beginning, in the beginning, man stole from the tree. God puts back onto the tree to undo what was done in the beginning. His hands were pierced because we used our hands to steal from the tree. His feet were pierced because the first Messianic prophecy involves the feet. He was pierced in the side because Eve came from the side and he is making atonement for Eve who led into temptation and he had a crown of thorns because it is the curse of creation to produce thorns and thistles. He literally took that curse on his head to reverse it. So, Jesus really is not just a gift and in a big meaningful way, but in every single small meaningful way and in every part of our lives. This is what he's doing for us. And we don't see that, is that hidden thing in our lives, right? Where we don't see it in the midst of the pain, we don't see it in the midst of the trial. But really Jesus is doing something, amazing work, in each of us in that moment.
That's good.
Oh, are we going out of order?
Go ahead, yeah. Popcorn style.
Okay, my closing thoughts. I feel like we addressed a lot of things today. Yeah, it's just still similar to my opening thought. I don't want to miss out on the Lord because I'm so stuck on my idea of what he's going to do in my life or what he's trying to do in my life.
I just. I would encourage people to be open to being wrong and to open their mindset about, I don't know, God's imagination is just so big. It's much bigger than ours, and his ways are higher than ours, and his thoughts are higher than ours. And so, I guess my closing thought is to just don't miss out on what God's doing because you have some sort of preconceived notion about what you think you should be doing. So, if something else comes when Rogelio is giving his closing thought, I'll gladly share.
So, mine is, like, very short. It's like. So, you were saying about the blessing. In the curse, look for the blessing? So, if the babushka doll looks cursed, just keep, keep opening. Or just throw away the babushka dolls and focus on baby Jesus. Focus on baby Jesus. That's my closing thought. That's the real gift.
That's the real gift. Yeah.
Throw here babushka. My gosh.
Well, John 3:16 says,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
And that is the, what was hidden, that's the mystery, that's what was wrapped. Jesus was wrapped in the swaddling cloths.
Parallels to a lamb, a sacrificial lamb, as Mandy mentioned.
And that is the plan of God. And so, you know, the Bible says if anyone lacks wisdom, he should ask. Ask God for wisdom if you, if you want it. And God gives to all generously. To paraphrase again. So, things that God conceals are not intended to be concealed permanently. It's intended to be found out, right? This. It's like. And then like Robyn said, God wants to be pursued and sought after.
And there's been times in history where, like it says in Genesis, like after the fall, like, there were people born and life was going on. And it says at some point, it says at that time, people began to call on the name of the Lord. There are times when people don't call on the name of the Lord.
Right.
And what a sad situation. If he's waiting. If he's waiting for someone to call on his name.
Yeah.
And nobody is. Well, he's there. But people come and go. Lives come and go.
It. It would be. It's amazing when people do call on his name because he does answer. So that's my closing thought there on the topic of wrapped is that is don't just leave the present sitting under the tree.
That's right.
And walk away from it. Because you don't understand what could possibly be inside this wrapping that you don't understand what is wrapped. Like, at least go unwrap it. It's a gift. It's your gift. It's a gift.
Well, this is. Yeah, it's a very, very exciting time, the Christmas season. It's, it's. And as I've gotten older, it's moved from like, like physical gifts to more and more better understanding what this season is all about and how deep and how awesome that is. Like, this is a really amazing season. And I think that, you know, everybody, well not everybody, but I mean, people will say, like, you know, carry the Christmas spirit with you all year long. It's like, well, what is the Christmas spirit? Well, it's not like materialism. It's not like Santa Claus, it's like, there's, I think there is something that happens around Christmas time because we are focusing on what Jesus did for us. So, I think that it is a supernatural feeling and that's the feeling that we want to carry with us all throughout the year. It's not. It's not Christmas commercialized. It's. It's Christ. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, Merry Christmas, everybody.
Merry Christmas, everybody.
Happy New Year, everybody.
Boo.
See you in 2025.
We will be back with another episode soon. Thank you for joining us with this episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al.
Take care, everybody.
That's a wrap.
Keep Christ in Christmas.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating.
Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com.
Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. The ESV text may not be quoted in any publication made available to the public by a Creative Commons license. The ESV may not be translated in whole or in part into any other language.
Scriptures taken from the Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.™ Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved worldwide. www.zondervan.com The “NIV” and “New International Version” are trademarks registered in the United States Patent and Trademark Office by Biblica, Inc.™
Apocryphal quotations are from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, and 1971 National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
