Episode Transcript
Growing up, no other day on the entire kid calendar evoked as much emotional variability than Thanksgiving. A day split into two distinct halves—halves denoted by overworking and overeating—Thanksgiving always started with the former, a laundry list of chores, laundry included.
Why my parents decided to cram one year's worth of cleaning into three hours was while simultaneously preparing to feed the multitudes was a mystery to me. Not even Jesus vacuumed or dusted before feeding the 5,000. But they did. We prepared our house as if we were entertaining royalty, cleaning and tidying to a degree that only the likes of Marie Kondo, Melissa Maker, and Mary Poppins could appreciate. And by we, I mean me. At least that's how I remember it. But to my parents' credit, all the dusting, vacuuming, and table setting paid off. By the time our first guests arrived, every room in the house—at least the ones granted public access by my mom—was so warm and inviting, even the turkey was glad he showed.
As humans, we gather to celebrate. We need it. Even before we're born—from the gender reveal to the baby shower to baby mooning—our life begins as the anchor for the enjoyment of others. And then come all the post birth-day birthday parties, excuses disguised in balloons and streamers for friends, classmates and co-workers to gather, the only price of admission being a plastic toy, class attendance or a signed corporate card. And even when we're dead, people can't help but use us one last time as a reason to get together. Somewhere along the way, we started calling it a celebration of life. It's like we're not even trying to hide it anymore. From two lines to flatline, our lives are basically one big reason for other people to party.
And our desire to gather certainly doesn't stop there. From federal holidays to religious observances to anniversaries to cultural holidays, research shows that the average American celebrates between 20 and 30 times a year, Thanksgiving certainly included. But why is it that we desire so much to gather, to be in community with one another? I believe the answer is twofold: fulfilling a need and pursuing the ideal.
In the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul addresses gathering together as fulfilling a need. Paul writes,
"For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."
And in 1 Corinthians, Paul writes,
"God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body."
This speaks directly to the importance and need of each part working together in unison, as well as indirectly to the need of each part to be connected to the whole. A body can function without a foot—a foot without a body, not so much.
But C.S. Lewis takes it a step further, pun intended, when he addressed humanity's need to function in unison as a means to better understand God. In his book Mere Christianity, Lewis states,
"God can show Himself as He really is only to real men. And that means not simply to men who are individually good, but to men who are united together in a body, loving one another, helping one another, showing Him to one another. For that is what God meant humanity to be like; like players in one band, or organs in one body."
Consequently, the one really adequate instrument for learning about God is the whole Christian community waiting for him together. And to better understand God, and thus live more like Him, it's literally pursuing the ideal. Because when we gather, whether it be for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukkah, or New Year's, we're all pursuing an ideal, an ideal that looks a little more Norman Rockwell and a little less Norman Bates.
But what is the ideal? It's more than hope. Throughout Scripture we see that the ideal includes encouraging one another (Hebrews 10:24-25), bearing each other's burdens (Galatians 6:2), being kind and compassionate to each other (Ephesians 4:23), forgiving one another (Colossians 3:13), providing mutual growth (Proverbs 27:17), giving strength and support (Ecclesiastes 4:9-12), and fostering unity and love for each other (John 13:34-35).
And if your guest list makes this wish list seem a little unrealistic, don't forget that the pursuit of the ideal remains merely a part of the journey, not the destination. Because if we're willing to take personal responsibility, we'll remember that our actions are ours and ours alone. And we can live out the Golden Rule even if those around us don't.
As a kid on those Thanksgiving mornings, I could only see the small picture, typically the one I was dusting. But looking back, I can understand why my parents put in so much work and effort into hosting our first guests of the holiday season. Simply put, because they saw that preparing a place for the gathering of friends and family was worth the effort, a sentiment with which Jesus would agree.
In John 14, Jesus said,
"'In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.'"
Now, whether or not he's using vacuum attachments to clean two flights of stairs in addition to mopping the kitchen and bathroom floors remains a mystery. But I suppose that's beside the point.
St. Augustine once said,
"Since you cannot do good to all, you are to pay special attention to those who, by the accidents of time, or place, or circumstances, are brought into closer connection with you."
So, this Thanksgiving, let's remember that the preparation for those with whom we are brought into closer connection is worth it. Not only does it help us foster the community we need, but it helps us to pursue the ideal we desire. And that's something we can all be grateful for.
Okay, so the Star Wars thing was when—I don't remember which movie it was—but it was Anakin Skywalker, so not Luke Skywalker. So, it was one of the more modern ones. And he, I believe the love interest is Padme. Natalie Portman. I don't know if it was Padme, but it was Natalie Portman. And I guess he has a vision or something of her dying, and he becomes so terrified of this happening that he actually does all the things he tries to do to prevent it. But it's the very things he does that end up having her, like, die, basically. And so, I just thought it was an interesting correlation between, like, sometimes we try and protect ourselves so much from pain in relationships, but we end up causing ourselves the very pain that we're trying to avoid.
You ever see The Village?
Oh, yes.
Just sayin'.
I love The Village.
Yep.
We'll have our spin off podcast, movie review.
That's right.
We'd be really good for that.
Well, in the meantime, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. My name is Chris. Dr. Jon Troll is my brother. And we're joined once again with Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson. And for the first time in the studio, Bill Callahan. Welcome.
Welcome, Bill.
Thank you very much. Thank you.
Bill is a realtor and retired firefighter. Tell us more about yourself.
Well, as you said, my name is Bill Callahan. I'm a Windermere real estate agent. Started selling real Estate in 1984. Shortly after that, I got a job in the fire service, got married, had three kids. Fast forward, I've got two more kids with a second marriage and two step kids and brought up Catholic and was saved at the age of 21. Born again Christian. And that started my life of faith to today.
And also on occasion, like an elder at the local church?
I was a board member for the Mukilteo Presbyterian Food Bank. And I went to school, I went to Seattle Pacific University. I'm a college dropout. I went to Seattle Pacific University to be a youth pastor and majored in physical education with a youth ministry degree. Dropped out my senior year. That's when I got a job in the fire service.
How long were you in fire service for?
Almost 20 years. Yeah.
Wow.
Wow.
That's a great service.
Yeah, it is.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was. It had some moments.
Yeah.
I can imagine.
No doubt.
Yeah.
And was that Seattle area or?
That was the King County Fire District 36 over in the Bothell, Woodinville, Redmond, Kirkland area.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Very cool. Well, welcome.
Thank you.
Well, we are, a handful of episodes we take a break from our study in the Book of John. We're going to look today at the topic of gathering or "gather" and our verse of the day—we've got a couple verses that'll kind of be used as sort of our topic verse here. Hebrews chapter 10, verses 24 and 25 out of the ESV, it says,
"And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
And then Jesus said in the book of Matthew—another verse here we'll kind of open up with—in Matthew, chapter 18 and verse 20, he says,
"'For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.'"
So, the concept of gathering, the importance of gathering is our topic today. Especially as, depending on the time of year that you watch this, we, we're approaching the holidays and Thanksgiving and so forth. So.
And if you're not from America.
Well, you know.
It might be, yeah.
Exactly. But in any, you know, kind of worldwide, there's gatherings, different cultures, different holidays, different reasons to come together. So, we'll just kind of talk about the importance of that and then, and then more specifically within the Christian faith, why it's all the more important to gather as well. So, opening thoughts around the table and we'll continue the discussion.
Well, yeah, so. And I think that the topic of gratitude and Thanksgiving and gathering is such an important one. And when I was kind of doing some studying on this, actually what came to my mind also was from Acts 2:42-47. And so, what it says there, because when we're talking about like gathering, I guess with like the gathering of the church, it's interesting how the first church was actually quite, there was quite a directive to gather together. And so just really quick.
"And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved."
So, I don't know, it was just kind of a cool little outline. The first church, there was so much emphasis on fellowship and gathering. I just thought it was kind of a fun little way to start since we are the church. So. Yeah.
Well, the, this is something I just kind of got from doing a little search of gathering. And it started at the very beginning, right? The Trinity, the Father, Son. They had the whole universe to gather and to enjoy and worship together. And then they decided to create man. So. That's the beginning of it all. So, obviously it's important. So.
Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. And actually, that kind of reminds me of something that I was thinking along with this, is the plan of the Trinity was for Jesus to come to earth. And the way that he showed us who he is, is by essentially the macro gathering in community with us. And so. Yeah, that's a great point.
Yeah. Actually, my opening thought was along those lines that you're going with. I think I spent a good amount of my growing up years in the church kind of thinking that, I'd heard this phrase thrown around a lot, like, God is all we need. And I would feel, like, weak for feeling like I needed other people in my life. And then the more I would dive into Scripture and the more that I would even just spend in community with the Lord, I realized how God created us and intended us for relationship with others. And part of that was that opening, like, God existed with Father, Son and Holy Spirit before anything else happened, he even existed in community in that way. And then before sin even entered the world, the first thing he did was make a partner for Adam. Like, and that's before, that's before like even any community with God was even broken. Like, he has literally everything that he could need in community with the Holy Spirit, with God. And then God still decided that it was not good for man to be alone. And so, I was just thinking along the lines of, like, how much my perspective has changed on community and relationships and the need to gather together over the course of my walk with the Lord. So.
Yeah, it's like we're born with the need for others. Obviously, a baby is dependent on needing someone. Right? And so, that's like, that kind of instinctive cry is like, cry until somebody gathers around me. And that's just for, like, physical survival. Right? And so, it's like God's built it into us, you know, from the very start. And then, you know, later on, we need, you know, perhaps like, social identity or we need more things from community that, we gather in a sense, because we need things from other people just to survive, you know, it's kind of built in. And then it's, it's interesting how later in the Bible it says, do not neglect to gather. Like, do not forsake the gathering of one another. And I should look up the reference there to find the exact wording. But it is interesting because that's like, yes, once we come to faith in God, faith in Christ, kind of like you're saying, there's this thought—and it's not entirely, you know, totally accurate—that God is, like, all we need, you know, when he's created other people for us. Right?
Right. Yeah.
It's by, that is also by his design. But that thought, that mindset could creep in. And then that's why there's that directive there: do not forsake the gathering with each other. Because, yes, you do have all you really need in God, and you can feel like you don't need other people, but there's that directive there. You still need to gather.
Right. Well, and to your point, Robyn, it was when, when it was just God that Adam had, I mean, all that he had was God, and God was like, no, it's good for you to have somebody else. And so, literally, the person that only had God and God was like, no, I think that it's good for you to have somebody else.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wonder if it's similar to, like, the way it forms in my mind is like, we all, God created us to be dependent on him. And I have physical need for food. I can go without food for a length of time and be dependent on God, but if I go too long, I could die. And I wonder if it's like a soul need that we have for connection with other people that, like, there are those moments and there are seasons sometimes where it can feel like God is all we have. And that, in a weird way, can be this odd blessing where you find that he really is all you need. But I don't think that that's, like, his intention for us permanently by any means. Like, there is a need that we have that, and he provides for that. Like, he provides my daily bread, he provides my food, and he can provide the connection in the community that I also need long term. But.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It can be a lonely place, you know, when it's just you and God and really God's the one sustaining you, but yet to be part of a fellowship of believers that also have the same values, strengthens you and builds you up and encourages you and prays for you, and it's not as lonely, so.
Right.
That's a really good point.
Yeah. And I don't know about any of you, but, like, if I'm not around people for too long, like, I will start to think certain things. Like, as far as, like, I wonder if this is actually necessarily accurate.
Right.
There's, like, an echo chamber that we're all susceptible to. And being in community, we can bounce things off each other, and they can be like, well, actually think about it this way. I mean, this coming from a counselor, that's what I do kind of a lot, which is we challenge certain beliefs and thoughts, and we come to a conclusion whether this is accurate or not. But done alone, it's like, well, we don't have that benefit of hearing another perspective.
Do you guys remember a few weeks ago when we were doing, like, a talking head in here, and I came in and I was like, you guys are like the first people I've seen all weekend. And I was like, I thought I was going crazy for a second. I was like, I'm not meant to be alone for 24 hours. And then I started to feel like, I don't know, like, this is ever gonna end or something. And then Chris goes, he's like, did you think, like, it was always gonna be that way? Like so logical. And I was like, I really did get in my head for a minute there like, this is just how it is. Like, as if I wouldn't see you guys the next day or have, like, other people I talk to. But it's crazy. I mean, the Bible does talk about when a man isolates himself, he rages against all sound judgment. And I think that's a really good picture of that. Is that. And even, like, something you just said, like, we were intended to, like, encourage one another. I think that God gave us relationship to encourage us again toward him. Like, I don't think that we can really serve God or love God in a vacuum like unto ourselves, but like, he gave us each other to strengthen us, like back toward himself, you know?
Yeah.
Well, here's this question here. It's like, how, what are some things that we gather from the church that we can't gather from the world? Like, people might seek certain fellowship from the world, but they're going to come up empty because what they're seeking, they're not actually going to find there. But what are some things that you would find in the church from gathering with other people? What's some things that are exclusive to gathering as a body of Christ together?
Well, I was kind of thinking about that and so I came up with a little, little list. And so just kind of briefly, I mean, spiritual strength, an eternal perspective. AI helped a little bit too.
Give credit to whom it is due.
In case AI is listening.
They always are.
That's right.
That's why there's an empty seat at the table now. It's just AI filling the spot.
Yeah. When they take over, just remember, give credit.
One by one, these chairs will disappear. It'll just be an AI podcast.
That's right. So, yeah, spiritual strength and eternal perspective, communal worship. And then the two that I think are most, I mean, can be most powerful is hope and truth. I don't know how much hope and truth we can get in the world. Now there is maybe, I mean, yeah, you can, like having a word of encouragement by somebody like, yeah, you got this. Just, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and do it. But the hope and the truth that we as believers know is actually real, like the actual truth and actual hope, it far exceeds anything that we can find in the world. So, those two things I think are particularly important—hope and truth in this, in the body of Christ. So, with truth, this was a quote from J.C. Ryle, I thought it was kind of interesting. It says, he says,
"Beware of manufacturing a God of your own: a God who is all mercy, but not just; a God who is all love, but not holy; a God who as a heaven for every body, but a hell for none; a God who can allow good and bad to be side by side...but will make no distinction between good and broad in eternity. Such a God is an idol of your own, as truly an idol as any snake or crocodile in an Egyptian temple. The hands of your own fancy and sentimentality have made him. He is not the God of the Bible, and beside the God of the Bible there is no God...."
And so, I think that goes just in my mind to truth, is we can get caught up in a lot of our own truth. And I think that, kind of going back to the echo chamber comment that I made earlier, we can start to believe there are certain truths that actually are off-center. And if we're in a healthy body of Christ and a church that's healthy, we will be brought back to the center if we're starting to veer a bit.
Yeah.
A couple notes that I got, you know, accountability and restoring each other's faith and discouragement. It's hard to be accountable to another person, particularly if you're 100% honest and you share your struggles and it's nice to be encouraged and restored by them as well, so.
Oh, absolutely. Accountability, that's such a good one because.
It's a tough one.
It's like, because it's easy to do things just on your own and no one's really helping us stay in-between the lines. But you know, it's like, if you know somebody's going to ask you about whatever it is, you know, next week or something, again, I think that's the benefit of counseling, but also in the church, that is something where it's just like, yeah, you might come across, you know, your buddy is going to be like, hey, how we doing?
Yep.
Yeah. Well, and within the church, ideally, they would be aligned to the Word of God to like show you when you're going astray. It's one thing when you just like have somebody, so we have like our own belief systems, I guess, and if we're not all grounded in the Word, like I might have a friend who very well-meaning is going to steer me wrong even though like that's not their intention. But with like Christ-loving people seeking after the same thing you are, alignment with the Word of God, they're going to keep you in that line, that lane that you want to be in, I think, like on that narrow path toward the Lord. Whereas, like, just because people are well-meaning doesn't mean they're right. Or it doesn't mean that they have the truth to, like, has the authority that backs up when they're kind of like, "Hey Robyn, that sucked what you did." Like, you know what I mean? So, I think also being kind of picky and protective of who you bud your heart up against next to kind of thing, so.
The part of community that I shared with you, Chris, in church Wednesday was, you know, I was called out by a pastor to surround yourself with Christ-centered people. And it was, you know, maybe nine months ago or so. And I just struggled with having, I mean, I have a lot of friends at work, but not really close connections in life that are Christ-centered people. And it's hard to get truths from the world because a lot of the world doesn't have a clue what the truth of God is. And you can live according to their truths, but not really have a foundation that another believer can give you. So. And the Word of God can give you and the Word of God gives you, clearly.
Yeah.
So.
Yeah, gathering with the church also provides the framework really to love one another. You know, it's much easier if you've got actual proximity to people. If you're on purpose, there's some sort of a system in place where you're gathering once a week or, you know, maybe more. It's very difficult to actually meet practical needs for people without intentionally coming into a close, you know, relationship with them or at least seeing them and having those opportunities for those conversations to take place. At least to love someone as you love yourself, you know, at the minimum, if like I'm hungry and I got five bucks in my pocket, I'm probably gonna buy myself a.
Donut.
Or, well.
We know the truth.
Hey, you know. And you know, to love someone as you'd love yourself if you found out of a need of somebody in the church, you would, to actually love someone as you love yourself, you would actually like, help take care of their need as immediately as you would take care of your own need. Like unless, you know, I'm just on a fast or something like that, I'm probably gonna address the situation. You know?
Which would be a funny excuse. Sorry, I can't help you. I'm on a fast.
Well, and you know, to a degree it kind of says like how much would you endure yourself without meeting your own need? Like, and so everyone varies on that topic, you know, whether it's food or, you know, you know, if someone was emotionally a mess, you know, would you take the time to help reach out? You know, if, you yourself were hurting and you would grab the phone to talk with someone, you know, not even asking, are you busy right now? You just, just grab the phone. Hey, I'm going to take up an hour of your time because I need help right now. Well, would you be in, on the other side of that? Would you be willing to be the person who picks up that phone and spend an hour of your time, you know, for their benefit.
Right.
Just different thoughts on how that practically comes into play. And gathering is a big part of that because it provides a starting point where you can actually exchange those numbers. You know, so.
The very practical side of it, we're actually exchanging numbers or actually talking with somebody. But it's true. And these good things, I think you said earlier, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's like these, the things that we can, how we can show love is, I mean, yeah, we have to have people to show love to. I mean, and Jesus didn't die for nobody. He died for people. So, it was like, in order for him to show his love, his love to us, there had to be us for him to show it to. Which sounds kind of weird, but similarly, it's like, how can we show love to those around us if there's no one around us to show love to?
Exactly. Like, where is, like, the gospel hitting the road if we are just existing for ourselves? Like, how are we actually being the hands and feet of Jesus—it's just exactly like you're saying—if there's no one to, like, minister to?
Right.
You know? We have to put ourselves out there.
Yeah. Take it to the silly extreme. If every Christian just stayed in their room until they died, I mean, that would be a really weird thing. And, like, nobody spread any type of love or anything.
Well, we wouldn't be here right now.
I'd be in my room. I'd be. I don't know.
That's a good point. I was thinking the Scripture that you read earlier about how, like,
"And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved."
And that wouldn't have happened, which. So, the gospel would have never reached us.
Right. Very true.
You know?
I imagine so. But. Yeah. Do we think then, just along the lines of what you just said, is there potentially some correlation in, like, our ability to recognize our own need and how that translates to how we love others? Like, if we don't have like a healthy love for ourselves and understanding that God loves us, are we able to love other people well? I don't know that you, I'm genuinely posing it as a question. Like, could I understand what other people are needing if I don't recognize my own need?
Well, I think that if there's not some form of like. Like, if you hate yourself—let's just, I guess, take it to that extreme—then you'll be thinking not about other people, I don't think. I think you'll always be hurt, you're hurting. So, it's like.
That's a good point.
It's like when we're injured physically, right? We go inwards. Like we hold our arm that's hurting. Or we hold like the cut. We go inwards. And so, emotionally it's the same thing, is if we hate ourselves, we're going to—by, I think, default—go inward and we're not gonna be able to see much around us because we're in pain and we're, yeah. And that would probably be a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, a lot of mental health issues in that part at that point. So, yeah, I don't think that we'll be very effective if we hate ourselves to show love to other people.
Right.
I think it'd be tough.
Right, That's a good point.
Well, here's another thought. There's this thought of being present in the moment, being aware of your current surroundings. And how does that affect our ability to be in community with the people that we're around? You had that quote from Augustine in your blog there, talking about being aware of those around us. Those are the only people that we can actually interact with. And if we're always wishing we were someplace else or wishing we were with a different group—this might be more likely in earlier years in life, perhaps in high school or something, when more relationships are forming and identities are forming, but still, it's probably at some point throughout anybody's life they might feel this way—how could we miss out on opportunities to love people if we aren't aware of the people that we're around at any time? It's the hand we were dealt, let's say. These are your people. You know? These are the people that are around you. Are you going to love them and, you know, and be aware of that? Or will you be handed your cards, to continue the analogy, and be looking at the poker table, the one across the room? You know?
Wish I was playing with them.
You know? Wish I was in the high stakes room.
I'm playing Go Fish.
I'm playing Go Fish.
Is that a thing to be aware of, to just be aware that these are the people that I'm around? These are the people that God has put into my circle. And am I actively attempting, even attempting, to be of benefit to them? Is it something that we need to be aware of as a distraction, let's say? Are we missing out on opportunities if we don't seize the day, seize the moment?
Right.
I was just thinking, sometimes I go out of my way to look for ways to help people, which is nothing really that dramatic, but it's surprising how often you can find a way to do a kind deed for somebody, which is kind of a minimal, active way of trying to be a person that helps others, tries to do for others. And sometimes it starts conversations that develops into friendships. You know, right?
Yeah.
We met in a sparsely attended room and because we struck up a conversation that we all identified with, here we are, we're friends now 400 and something days later.
That's right.
How that connects to what I was just saying about looking for ways to help people, I'm not sure, but.
Well, I mean, so in a movie theater, it's, it was, it's such a fun story.
Yeah.
But I think just extending kindness is basically how I remember it. And then, yeah, that then produced a friendship. And so, it's like, yeah. But if you're, but you're mindful of it. And that's the thing is if you're looking, then you're thinking. And so, and if we're thinking, then we won't be surprised when something comes along our way that we can extend something to somebody. Now I do think that if we were to look at it as, like I said earlier, like I'm playing Go Fish over here and they're the high stakes over there. Well, if we look at what we have in front of us as "less than," as a Go Fish game, then that will, I mean, everybody that we interact with is an eternal soul.
Yeah.
And that's what it comes down to.
It's high stakes.
Every, every, every relationship is high stakes. Yeah.
Are we playing all in? Or are we just minimum bid?
Yep. Yeah. Yep. All in with people. Yeah.
Yeah.
I've been going to the gym. I, during COVID I kind of shut down.
Show off.
Yeah. And, no, it hasn't shown.
Jon's like, I shouldn't have sat next to him.
Five years of not going to the gym, I started going back to the gym. And I literally pray in the sauna for God to bring me somebody to share the gospel of Christ with.
Even in the sauna, huh?
In the sauna. And I say, this is my little moments of hell on earth. Lord, bring me some, bring me somebody to communicate with. And it's, you'd be surprised how quick 40 minutes can go by at 190 degree sauna when you get into a good conversation. But the point is, my favorite question, after, you know, finding out enough of the person, you know, their personality, as soon as they mention something personal, I say, do you mind if I ask you a personal question? And I just ask them, I said, who do you believe Jesus Christ is? And I listen to what their answer is and it's fun because then you can open up dialogues and in the meantime, other people are walking into the sauna and they're in the middle of this, you know, very passionate conversation at times. And it's my way of stepping out to try to win a soul or even if it's just planting a seed here and there. And I, it's, been something that has been a, an exciting time for me after kind of coming back to the Lord, not, that I was, I mean, I, I've been a Christian since I was 21. Born again. I was, grew up Catholic. But the process of salvation is something I've been aware of, but I haven't really engaged myself in a lot. But after the Charlie Kirk incident, I, and watched a guy who gave his life for the Lord and has caused a movement that has really dramatically changed the direction of our country. I believe. I decided to take a bolder stance and try to activate my faith and activate my efforts to reach out to others. And sometimes it's uncomfortable, but yet, you know, I feel it's the most valuable thing I've done in years. So.
I love that.
Amazing.
I love that.
Yeah.
That's really, really good. I mean, and talking to, you know, people like in a sauna, even like finding any way possible. I mean that's great. That's great.
Not a lot of people are comfortable as it is in there.
Everybody's uncomfortable.
I mean, what better place to talk about hell, than a sauna?
Right. Right. That's why I said it's my little moments on hell.
That's good.
That is really good.
Oh, I guess, yeah. But mindfulness, right? I guess that's what we were. Yeah. It's interesting because that's something that I work with a lot in my practice is being mindful. Because a lot of times anxiety will come up because people are thinking about the next thing rather than being in the present moment. And I do think that's something that a lot of people struggle with, is being intentional and being mindful in the moment for whatever reason that is. A lot of times, in my experience anyways, it is anxiety because they're always thinking about what's next. But just being in the present, listening to the person actually give their response. And then it's like if there's a concern that I won't know what to say so I need to like mentally prepare what the next thing is, it's like, well, I mean just put it in God's hands. I think that that's something that's really, really important too is you don't know where the conversation is going to necessarily go. And that's okay. That's kind of the beauty of just hey, I'm going to, I'm taking steps. God, you direct them, I'll take them. You direct them.
Perfect example is me showing up in this room.
Yeah, there you go.
I had no idea what we were going to do here, but yet, you asked me to be here and here I am. And I believe, I trust that God is going to bring forth something fruitful to share with somebody out there in the world that may benefit from it. I don't know if it's happened yet, Chris. Has it happened yet?
It's, we're happening. It's happening right now.
It's happening.
Let's check the stats here. Oh yeah.
Not a live show, unfortunately.
That would be fun.
So, Robyn, didn't you say earlier something about, you had mentioned about like there's some things in life that like, like a necessity, like we need water, we need, kind of saying how like connectedness is also something kind of within that? Which I think is very true. And I think that research and science is showing us that. Not that this is going to be like too like a wow factor, but this is from the Center for Compassion Altruism Research and Education from Stanford Medicine. So, health benefits of connectedness: lower levels of anxiety and depression, higher levels of self-esteem, greater empathy, we're more trusting and cooperative and as a consequence others are more open and trusting and cooperative with us. In other words, social connectedness generates a positive feedback loop of social, emotional and physical well-being. And so, it's almost like high tides raise all ships in that, in that regard. It leads to 50% increased chance of longevity of life, strengthens your immune system. Connectedness helps you recover from disease faster and it may even lengthen your life. And so, they also say a lack of social connectedness is a greater determinant of health than obesity, smoking and high blood pressure. And so, there's just a lot that goes into being in community from just a health standpoint, mental health and physical health. So, it's like, it's important that we look at social connectedness and being together as important as like eating and water. Yeah, we're not going to die as quickly without social connectedness then with water, without water, but it is something that is directly correlated with our emotional well-being and physical well-being too.
I think that even with what you're saying, like logically, that would follow when people are feeling really isolated and really depressed, their like physical health will go out the window. You know? Like, I think that's what you just said. But I just mean. Like, there are people that like you're talking about like health risk, heart disease, obesity and things like that. When people have like no self-esteem as a result of like not a lot of connection, those issues will follow. Like, and it's powerful what getting into a healthy community can do for you spiritually in your soul and then physically as well.
And the irony is that anxiety and depression, like so common, it is isolation. It's, I'm anxious, I'm not going to go out. Or I feel really down, so I'm not going to go out. And so, it's this ugly, like circular, it's a downward cycle. It's like I'm lonely, so I don't go out, and I don't go out because I'm lonely. It's like where does it end? And so, it's really interesting how, I don't know, I think that's just, I don't know, it's like a tactic of the enemy to get us alone and keep us alone. If we can believe that we're better off by ourselves, then he can do his dirty work a lot easier.
I found, one of my favorite C.S. Lewis quotes, I actually wrote it down—I think C.S. Lewis says everything the best—but he said,
"To love at all is to be vulnerable."
You guys might even know this quote. It's from The Four Loves.
"To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable."
And I think that's a, just a really like powerful like image of, I think that sometimes we keep ourselves from like engaging in relationships because we think it's going to keep us safe. And ironically, it's going to do the very opposite. I think that what you're just mentioning, like, really highlights that, that no matter what, like, it's a risk either way. And one way you're gaining the possibility of like fulfilling relationships that could change your life. And the other way, like, you are kind of, I mean it says like basically building a casket around yourself. Like either way you're going to change. But one way is the potential for good, and the other is a potential for just a lot of heartache and pain.
Yeah.
And I'm wondering if there's like, are there any practical recommendations for how to like when you're in that space of like, I know I need relationship, but like, even the experience has been so hard so far, there's so much fear surrounding that. Like, I'm a big fan of breaking big, big things down into very small steps. Like what would be your go-to recommendation for someone who like, knows they need community, is desperate, but maybe is just terrified for the next step?
Yeah, well, I hear it said quite often, and this is like a really good suggestion is: plug yourself into a good church. But I wouldn't say just stop there. Volunteer. Find a place within the church to volunteer. Even more so than trying to get into a small group, I'd say try to get into the volunteer group because you'll be working towards something that's greater than yourself with other people. And so that's, I think that's one of the best steps to take. If for some reason church is not an option—which I'm not really, there's like, there's churches like everywhere—but if it's not, then I would say for community's sake only, this is something I got from Jordan Peterson, is pick out like five or six places that you go to regularly the same time, the same day. And then you will eventually, like take a coffee shop for an example. Eventually the barista will know your name. Eventually they will start asking you questions about yourself. Eventually you will know more about them as well. And I probably brought this up before at some point, but I did that with orange chicken. I went to a teriyaki place every Wednesday night at like 6:30. And within about four times there I was like the orange chicken guy. And then, and then within like, like probably five or six times, like I knew so much about the woman behind the counter, I. And she knew a lot about me too. And like we were kind of friends. And so, that's one way to build community, is through consistency. Yep. So, yeah.
Baby step.
When we first started, when you first started, when you first shared with me what this was about, I was thinking about how I had just rediscovered the, my going back to the gym. So, I started going to different gyms, ones that were closer to my house. But I had been going to the LA Fitness in Mill Creek since 2000. So, for 20 years, I went there four or five times a week and literally knew everybody in the place in the morning because it was the same people there, 5:00, 5:30 every morning. And then COVID came around and things that stopped. Right? Well, six months ago, five months ago or so, I decided to start going back to that particular gym because it was familiar. It took me five hours to get out of there because everybody that was, a lot of people that were there remembered me, and we ended up talking, and now it's like, I can't wait to go back to that community because you know everybody. And brings it maybe a little more familiarity to it.
Yeah.
Which, is that good? I don't know. But it definitely makes you more motivated to go there.
Absolutely. And how you present yourself in those situations. Right? It's like they want, they're glad to see you again. Right? When I went to the teriyaki place, they were glad to see me again because we were cordial, we were open, we were nice, we were kind to each other. It got to the point where she was even saying, you know what? No more orange chicken for you. She's like, I have diabetes. I don't want you to have diabetes either. So, we're going to get you on teriyaki. Okay. Sounds good. It's like, without too much time, like, she's actually caring for my health. And it's just like, and like the people in the gym, it's like they were so glad to see you again, took five hours to leave, it's because there was an authentic connection there. Yeah. So, this is something that actually came to me today also. It's interesting. There's kind of like a little bit of a download today, this morning, of just additional content. And I'll just throw it out there because I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it a little bit and see what you guys think. So, it seems like in the Bible, when it talks about community, that it focuses more on the community of the church than necessarily the community of the family, which I do think is interesting. And then so I started, because the thing that came to mind was, it was really, it struck me when Jesus was on the cross and he speaks to John and his mother, saying, this is now your mother, this is now your son. It's like, well, that's kind of interesting because there's this, I don't know, two people that aren't of blood, but they are now family. And so, a couple of verses that came to mind. The first is, and then the opposite is kind of true because God seems to speak more to the division of family, which is the, more the typical idea of community and relationships is within the family. But it sure does seem like there's more time spent on the community of the church. So, for example, in Luke 12:51-53, this is the division part of it where Jesus says,
"'Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.'"
And then verses that talk about within the church. Matthew 12:46-50.
"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.'
"He replied to him, 'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.'"
Yeah. And then, like I said before, with Jesus on the cross, John 19:26-27.
"When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold, your son!' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!' And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home."
And so, it's just, it just kind of struck me. And again, still trying to wrap my brain around it a little bit, but it's like there sure does seem to be more of an emphasis on the church body is more accurately your family than even your biological family.
Yes.
That's a trip.
That verse that you just brought out isn't a mistake. I mentioned the Charlie Kirk assassination. It has divided my family completely to the point where some of my children don't want anything to do with me. And as devastating as that is, it gave me comfort to read that in the Bible that Christ is all we need. I mean, we need fellowship, body, but yet, if it comes down to your family or Christ, we have to be strong enough to choose Christ, as painful as that is, as much as I love my children, as much, they're adults now, as much as I would do anything for them, them rejecting me because they're glad about the assassination of somebody I truly believed was a man of God on this earth and are happy for it. And to know that Christ said in the Bible that, or Christ said, period. I have not come to unite. I've come to divide. And as painful as that to live through, it's comforting to know that it's best to choose Christ above all.
Right.
Yeah.
And he let us know it wasn't if it happens, it's when it happens. It's, yeah, it's kind of in an odd way comforting, though, because it's like he saw it coming and he's like, heads up, there's going to be some pain.
Yeah.
But you know, I have overcome the world. That's the other side of it. You're going to have hardships and troubles in this world, but I've overcome the world. So, yeah, he gives us a heads up.
Yeah.
Not to say that it makes the situation any easier emotionally. Right? But man, we have a God that knows and loves and yeah, he is the God also that makes beauty from ashes. So that's why we keep these things in prayer, too.
And I think it's worth, like, kind of noting, like when Jesus talks about this, like the division between mother and daughter and son and father. And I don't think he's advocating that we disown our families by any means. But I think he, like many others in that day, they use hyperbole to kind of emphasize a point. And when it comes down to it, like you're saying, if I have to choose between the family that I love and Jesus, it has to be Jesus. And with, I remember being like 15 and 16 years old, I came to faith and none of my family did. And like, my mother is an amazing woman. She raised me as a single mom. She is so affectionate and so lovely. In the end, she, doesn't know the Lord. And there was a lot of contention that happened in our family as a result of me coming to know Jesus. Primarily, she thought I joined a cult. And I mean, in fairness, looking back, I'm like, that would be pretty strange if you knew your whole daughter her entire, like your, her whole life and suddenly she came home from this retreat, and she's talking about Jesus. And, like, this seems completely crazy, like, from. So, it's like, I have more understanding for it now than I did at the time. But a lot of contention happened in our home as a result of me going to church and choosing this. And I remember some friends that I had that I met at youth group. They all have, like. I mean, it seemed like all of them were like, pastors, kids. And like, they all knew each other since they were babies and kind of grew up in the church. And I remember one of them asked me one time. They're like, Robyn, how do you do this? Like, it's hard enough knowing, like, my family knows the Lord, but how do you do this? Like, going home every day and none of them know? And I remember, like, it was one of those moments where you don't know until, like, someone asks you. And I was like, I, like, what choice do I have? I was like, there's no other way but Jesus. Like, and it really was kind of a defining moment for me of, like, I mean, no matter what, it's always going to be me and Jesus, and it always has been, it always will be. And I think also, like, even this conversation is emphasizing to me, like, this need for community for some of us is like, especially within the church, is dire. Like, I've said to a couple people, like, who kind of don't understand this, like, weird season of I'm 37 and single, living alone. And it's not just like, oh, I'm single, living alone. It's like, I have. I'm tethered to nobody other than the Lord, honestly. And so having this, like, church or church communities that God has grafted me into is the biggest blessing because it's not just me or just like, me and God against the world. Like, there's a community of people that have surrounded me and supported me and have, like, helped me grow into the person that I am. And I really. I truly mean, like, I couldn't do. I couldn't have the life that I have without the people that God places in my life, too. So, I think even just as you, like, brought that up, I'm like, it isn't. It isn't just that, like, community is a fun thing. I think it's. It's actually like a vital thing that we make sure that we get connected to and grafted into. Because in some cases, it really can be like, life or death spiritually. If that makes sense. So.
It does, yeah. Paul says to do it alone. Right? He says it's better to not be married. So, you're actually. Well, I can tell you at times it's a lot easier to not be married. But, to have somebody that you love and adore and to feel conflict over your faith, is not, it's not comforting.
Right.
And it's only the Lord that can sustain us through that. And the church, a gathering of believers, like-minded followers of Christ, is the most strengthening thing I've experienced in my faith in many years. And you guys are part of it, and I appreciate that. So, there was something else I was going to say about the gathering at Thanksgiving. You know, we have to do what we were just talking about. Love them like we love ourselves. Right? You know? And sometimes that's hard, you know, because sometimes you don't love yourself all that much. Like you said, you know, it's hard, but yet making the effort, regardless of whether they can't stand you and don't want to talk to you and hate anything you say, you still have to love them, you know?
Yep. Their behavior towards us has no bearing on our behavior towards them.
It's true. It's true. Yep. Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. Like it. Like in John chapter 6, in verse 67,
"So Jesus said to the twelve,"
Or actually in verse 66, it says,
"After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.'"
So, between, you know, who's leaving who, we don't really abandon our family. But are they abandoning Jesus? Are they abandoning the believers? They're the ones who go away. Right? Many of those who follow Jesus, they, they're the ones that are departing. And so, maybe that helps us understand a little bit of the dynamics that are happening there. Like, it's not that we're leaving our family members in those cases as we're uniting with the body of Christ, the church, we would pray that they, like a prodigal son, come back. Right? It's like, where's the home base? Where's the starting? Where's the home place, I guess is kind of what I'm trying to say. So.
Yeah.
Kind of like you're saying, Bill, around, like at Thanksgiving time, we're around people and friends and family, and those are opportunities to love. And we don't really have opportunities to show patience unless we're around people who test our patience, or opportunities to not be envious unless we're around people who are perhaps successful and would test our envy.
You know, these are aspects of love according to 1 Corinthians 13. Right? How do you practice those things? And so, we might be put into situations where we're around family members, kind of like your blog said, we're around people that might be difficult. As Corinthians says, love bears all things, it endures. Right?
Right.
So, another encouragement, I guess, just as we're around people this time of year, is that at, like, how other way would we be given the opportunity to love in those ways unless we were put up with a situation where you have to practice those things?
That's what, like, yeah, like, because you sent out that question and like, I did, I don't really have, like, a great, like, anything to add to that. But every time I thought of it, I just started laughing to myself because, like, yeah, you will need to be butted up against those types of situations in order to do the things that Christ called us to do. If a person says he loves and no one's, no one experiences it, does that person really love?
Right?
Well?
And that's the interesting thing about community is that God has directives to, you know, to not sin, obviously. But there's not like a directive like, fix your quirkiness.
Right, yeah.
So that you become more.
Right, Exactly.
I mean, you need to live in harmony with people. But the admonishment there is to show the patience, to show the grace. That, of the two parties, that's the party that is supposed to show love. The other one, I don't want to just say, be who you are and ignore how you're affecting others. But, you know, you might need to work on manners and certain things. But.
Well, no, it says love is patient. It doesn't say love isn't annoying.
Yeah.
So, it's like, yeah, the responsibility is on us to show love, not like, am I annoying to anybody ever? Like, yeah, so, yeah, good point.
I guess it wasn't you that sent out the Corinthians 13 verse. So, my little computer search on it was patience presumes irritation. Kindness presumes provoc—
Provocation?
Provocation. Thank you. Not envying presumes situation where others outshine us. Not boasting presumes opportunities to elevate ourselves. Not insisting on our own way presumes conflicting preferences. So, it's putting ourselves in a place where we have to deal with those things.
Yeah.
It helps us be stronger.
And if we're mindful about community and being in community, then we'll be ready for these things.
Right.
Right?
We should be.
You don't want to, but here we are.
Well, that's the next step is wanting to. Just tell ourselves that we want to. I want to be, I want to come into contact with somebody who tries my patience.
Right. No.
Then it won't be so bad when it happens.
They say never pray for patience. Right?
Yeah.
Never pray for the mind of, heart of Job.
The heart of Job without his experience would be great.
Right.
That's right.
Well, I kind of wonder, you know, like, that the book of Job starts with Satan saying, have you, or God saying to Satan, have you considered Job? You know? And Satan's like, well, you know, let's test him and see.
Right.
I'd hate to be like the person where God's like, well, yeah, if we test him, he's definitely going to crumble.
Right.
You know.
Don't think about Bob. Have you thought about Joe, though? He can handle it.
Forget Bill.
That's really funny.
Yep.
Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of Gather?
Well, I think for me, just closing thoughts are, I think, kind of like the blog, how it, how the vlog, kind of, the purpose of the vlog was basically, it's worth the effort. Community is worth the effort. It's worth putting time and effort into creating an environment that is welcoming to those that we're around. And yeah, we don't know exactly why some people are in our sphere or it's by accident or divine. It doesn't really matter. The people that are in our circle, those are the ones that God is entrusting us with. And so, every person is an eternal soul and we should treat each other as such.
That's true. My closing thoughts, I guess, would be community is a big part of our faith. You read Scripture. My, one of the things that has drawn me back to faith was the series The Chosen and how much of their community involves celebrations and Sabbath, Sabbat. And it was a much bigger part of their culture. Right? And here we are, the things in our life that give us joy, even though sometimes it comes with a lot of heartache, is our holidays. Right? We gather and we remember those holidays over the years, and we just have to go in with the heart to love others as we love ourselves and do the best we can and shine where we can for the sake of Christ. So.
It's great.
Closing thought. I don't know. I think we kind of covered a lot that I would have wanted to be my closing thought, just my overall just gratitude to the Lord for bringing community and for allowing me to be a part of it. I think it's, the church has been, I mean—I say this to some people who I have random interactions with, like some parents at the school, some co-workers and things like that, and people always think of the church as a very oppressive and judgmental place—and it is kind of an honor to be able to say, actually it has been the, like, the saving grace of my life, that God grafted me into the church and that I found Jesus and like, literally saved my life. Like, there have been too many times where I've wanted to give up, or where I wish I was dead, and instead, like, I just have had such a great experience. And that's not to say that there hasn't been like, quote, unquote, church hurt, because there has. But overall, I think that the people that God has placed in my life and whether they've lasted this entire time or whether it's just been seasonal friendships sometimes has been like, I think, better than I deserve sometimes. And I think that that is a very humbling reality, is that we all deserve far worse than we've gotten. And I think so not only the love of Jesus, but like the love of Jesus through people has been a very transformative experience for me. So, I would encourage anyone who's like, feeling isolated or feeling depressed or alone to go ahead and take like a first step, like whatever you think you can handle. And like you said, like going, maybe it doesn't have to go to a church, but maybe just going to like your local teriyaki shop for once a week and just trying to practice, maybe practice some social skills or something, if that helps make you feel a little more. You guys wouldn't believe this, but I used to be really awkward when I was younger.
Were you younger last week?
Younger is very relative.
We all were.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, I guess my closing thought is just the word gather appears in Genesis about kind of the end of life. And it's the way the word is used is to describe like in verse 8 of chapter 25,
"Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people."
It says something similar for Ishmael and then Isaac, and then even in Numbers, chapter 27, starting in verse 13,
"'When you have seen it,'" the Promised Land, "'you also shall be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was,'"
This is the Lord speaking to Moses.
And then in Deuteronomy, chapter 34, starting in verse 5.
"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day."
And to me, that just kind of confirms, like, we're not talking about gathering physical bodies, bones together. When it says we've gathered to his people, we're talking about like the souls of people, right? And so, there's like this eternal aspect to gathering that is even present way back in the first book of the whole Bible. Right? Abraham was gathered to his people. Moses was gathered to his people. And as Jesus says in the Book of John, chapter 14, starting in verse 1,
"'Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.'"
So, gathering together has been part of the Bible from the beginning in Genesis, and Jesus confirms it. That's the work that he's actively doing. He ascended into heaven and that's what he said he's working on right now, preparing a place for us. In the meantime, he's left His Holy Spirit with us to remind us of the words that he said. And so, those words we can use to encourage each other, as it says in Hebrews there,
"encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
So, that's, that is the encouragement there is to gather, continue to gather in the present and as we look forward to the future as well. So. Well, great discussion. Thank you one and all for joining us. Thank you, listeners for listening and be sure to like and subscribe if you're so inclined. We look forward to another episode soon.
Be inclined.
Be inclined.
Take care everybody.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at thedefinepodcast.com.
