Episode Transcript
When I was in my early 20s, my brother, a couple friends and I would regularly find ourselves in downtown Seattle engaging in an unnecessary and needless culinary tradition that tested the limits of our will and wisdom. Before "Man v. Food," there was the trifecta, a monthly lapse in dietary discretion that pitted good food against better judgment. If it wasn't obvious that we took our youth and intestines for granted, residents of the Capitol Hill neighborhood in the early 2000s certainly knew better. The trifecta included back-to-back-to-back stops at Matt's Gourmet Hot Dogs, Dick's Burgers, and Pagliacci's Pizza. And like most ill-advised behaviors, the journey from thought to deed was anything but scenic. The basic progression—or digression, I suppose—was simple. Someone first declared boredom, which led to a few knowing looks, which ended with someone asking the one-word titular question, "trifecta?"
What followed was inevitable regret wrapped in grease and Pepto Bismol. It was the dietary equivalent of a rage room. Senseless abuse and destruction of a perfectly good living space.
Your body is a temple. We've all heard the comparison, a metaphor uttered either to dissuade or to motivate, to drop the donut or to hit the gym, a pithy reminder to take care of ourselves physically. But the body-temple comparison isn't merely a shallow prompt to eat well and to remain fit. Like a Chicago style pizza, it's deep.
James 2:26 reads, "the body apart from the spirit is dead," pretty straightforward.
James is stating that there's an obvious spiritual component to our existence, one that Jesus alluded to after he laid waste to the temple court, the original rage room.
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." He was speaking about the temple of his body. But unlike today's body-temple comparison, Jesus was not speaking metaphorically.
To understand the significance of the body, the last temple, it helps to understand the significance of the first.
Throughout the Old Testament, the temple was where God resided, the place where he communicated with man on earth, provided atonement for sin, and offered a space for communal worship. It was God's literal presence with his people.
After Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, God spoke to him, saying, "let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst." Almighty, all-knowing and all-powerful God wanted a space that he could have a direct relationship with his prized creation, his people.
At first, the space was in the form of a tabernacle, the mobile precursor to the temple that could be constructed and deconstructed as the people of Israel were led through the wilderness.
And then sometime after the Israelites settled in the promised land, present day Israel, the permanent temple would be constructed. I'm sure God was all for living out in his creation, but hundreds of years living in a tent was long enough. King David constructed the plans and his son Solomon constructed the temple. An undertaking that took 70,000 laborers, 80,000 stone cutters, 3,600 foremen, and seven years to complete. But perhaps even more incredible was the amount of money King David alone donated to the cause, upwards of $10 billion—that's billion with a b—in today's gold and silver. But in order for God to commune and communicate with his people, there was a catch. Since God is pure love and man is born into sin, he had to come up with a plan to be with, yet not overwhelm him, in his presence.
Because pure love isn't the last five minutes of a Hallmark movie.
It's a supernatural warning label: it may cause trembling, nausea and death—not unlike the viewing of the last five minutes of a Hallmark movie.
No, that type of love isn't winning a bake competition and subsequently marrying your high school sweetheart. It's terrifying. Terrifying in the sense that it is by definition holy, just and all-consuming. These qualities render impurities—sin—unable to exist in his presence. A sinful man in the presence of a holy God is free speech on an Ivy League campus, good as gone. Thus, the Holy of Holies was created. The innermost part of the temple was where man spoke with God directly. A veil separated the Holy of Holies from the outer courts, a barrier separating sinful man from a holy God. Only once a year could the high priest enter this place to make a sacrifice on behalf of Israel. And just to highlight the environmental significance when entering the Holy of Holies, it's been said that the priest wore bells and a rope, proof of life and means of extraction, respectively. The physical temple was no joke. It was an architectural wonder that had one primary purpose, to house Almighty God. And all that was about to change.
Jesus' body-temple statement was no metaphor. It was a foreshadowing, a favorite of Christ's narrative devices.
During the wedding at Cana, Jesus foreshadowed the significance of his blood. At the temple, he foreshadowed the significance of his body, both of which would be revisited at the Last Supper. Body broken, blood poured out. And after his death and resurrection, the spirit that descended on him like a dove would be available to descend on us all.
No longer separated by a veil, we have full access to God because He resides in us. In a sense, our bodies become the Holy of Holies. As the apostle Paul writes, "do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
When I was in my early 20s, my temple looked more like a house of pancakes than a house of worship. Literally and metaphorically. And thankfully, Christ was and is always gracious enough to overturn my tables when needed.
Jesus said to the money changers, "do not make my Father's house a house of trade." A reprimand for their irreverence and their disregard for whom the temple housed.
I wonder what he might say to you. What he might say to me. Do not make my father's house a house of—you fill in the blank.
Does your temple look like 10 billion with a b? Or does it look like the supernatural equivalent of a late-night trifecta? Because for some of us, our temple is barely suitable for Burger King, let alone the King of Kings. So, remember who you host. After all, your body is a temple.
Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
Along with Dr. Jon, my brother, my name is Chris, your host. We are joined once again with Robyn Nelson, Rogelio Navarro, and Mandy Michaels. Welcome back, everybody.
Thank you.
We are picking up in the Book of John, picking up kind of where we left off end of last season. We are now in chapter two and we're looking at verses 13 through 21 out of the ESV.
The kind of title for this is Jesus Cleanses the Temple. So, our word is "temple," as you spoke of in your blog there. So, all right, so that passage reads,
"The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, 'Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade.' His disciples remembered that it was written, 'Zeal for your house will consume me.'
So the Jews said to him, 'What sign do you show us for doing these things?' Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' The Jews then said, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?' But he was speaking about the temple of his body."
And then verse 22 says, "When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken."
So that's the passage we're looking at today, focusing on the word "temple." We'll go with top line thoughts around the table and take the discussion from there. Dr. Jon.
Perfect. Yeah. So, temple I thought it was. So, when I was writing the, the post for this word, this topic, really what kind of kept on coming back to me was just obviously kind of that cliche, "your body is a temple." And we've really kind of grown accustomed to that being just very much a kind of a toss away phrase. But according to the Bible, like the temple is something very significant and kind of like thinking through it and thinking through kind of where the Bible, you know, thinking through how the temple was first constructed and the intentionality behind it.
It's massively important. And then for the reason being, I think a lot of it is like so many things in the Bible, there's a foreshadowing of things to come and like the significance of the temple being built and constructed and then the intentionality behind it to then later on understand that our bodies are the temple that house the Holy Spirit. And so going back to like how the temple was constructed, I just think that's something that is, it's a good reminder that it's no small thing that we house the Holy Spirit, that we house God in us.
And even some like the more, like, just practical things.
King David, I mean there's a lot of different kind of thoughts about how much money he gave, but it's around, it's around $10 billion worth of gold, just his own donation to get the temple constructed. You read the books Chronicles, First and Second, you read First and Second Chronicles and it's just really kind of a cool illustration about, you know, the intentionally behind it. And then just really quick, too. When Solomon dedicated the temple, it says,
"Then the king and all the people offered sacrifice before the Lord. King Solomon offered as a sacrifice 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep."
I mean that's just an insane amount of livestock. And so, I don't know how long that took, but I mean that's, it's just amazing. And so, but what's another thing that's interesting is once the temple was completed by Solomon, there was this very large prayer and dedication before it was, you know, official, like the ribbon cutting ceremony, basically. And at the end of his speech, he says this, "'And now arise, O Lord,'" So, this is in 2 Chronicles 6:41.
“'And now arise, O Lord God, and go to your resting place,
you and the ark of your might.
Let your priests, O Lord God, be clothed with salvation,
and let your saints rejoice in your goodness.
O Lord God, do not turn away the face of your anointed one!
Remember your steadfast love for David your servant.'”
And then it says,
"As soon as Solomon finished his prayer, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple. And the priests could not enter the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord filled the Lord's house. When all the people of Israel saw the fire come down and the glory of the Lord on the temple, they bowed down with their faces to the ground on the pavement and worshiped and gave thanks to the Lord, saying, 'For he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever.'”
So, the same power that filled the temple is the same power that fills us. And I just think it's no small thing. It's more so certainly, obviously for believers, because we're the ones that have the Holy Spirit living in us because we have accepted Christ.
But it's really important, I think, that we just remember who we house for sure.
And that's 10 billion in today's dollars?
Right.
Yeah.
Important.
Yeah.
Yeah, my first thoughts, I was thinking that actually this month is the month that in Israel they celebrate, or not really celebrate. They remember the, the two temples falling, they were both destroyed around the same date, two different years. And the first one was destroyed, they believe, between the 7th and the 10th of the month of Av, and the 2nd on the 10th of Av. So, it's really fascinating that we're talking about this, and this is the month on the 13th of August, our time on our calendar, that they were mourning and just remembering their past. And my thought around that was, how often do we forget the past? How often in our culture, too, we're trying to erase the past when we really need to remember and not forget where we've come from so they don't repeat what we've done.
Yeah, I really like this image of Jesus being the temple itself and being risen again, like sort of the I will rebuild the temple in three days and how he, you know, is really referring to his life, passion, death, and resurrection, and how we are also, because of him, we're able to participate in his body, where it's kind of like we, you know, we become the body of Christ with Christ as the head. And I know there's a lot of mystery, but it's a reality that spiritually we also are part of the body. And so, we house the same spirit that lives in him now as adopted, you know, members of his family. And so, I did, I love, that's so profound to me, the participating and somebody coined the phrase, like, "divine intimacy." I don't remember where, but it just makes me think of that, like this divine participating with Christ.
That's good.
Yeah. There was a part of, when you explained it in your blog, you were talking about the temple, especially way back when, when a priest would go into the temple with like, a rope around his ankle and a bell so that they could determine if he basically if he died or not in the presence of God. And it just reminded me of, like, how casual I can be approaching the Lord sometimes. And given that Jesus has bridged that gap for us so that we can have that intimacy with the Lord again. But how also just being in awe of God and who he is and the weight of that separation between us and him if it hadn't been for Jesus. And. Excuse me. So that's really where my, like, my first is just kind of like reminding me to be just in awe of the Lord again, of what Jesus had to go through in order that we could have that intimacy and how big of a separation that really was. Like, you couldn't even in a physical space, encounter the presence of God without it being to your own detriment and, yeah.
Yeah.
We'll start there.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah. Each of the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John talk about Jesus cleansing the temple, basically. And in the book of, for example, Matthew, chapter 21:12-13,
"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. He said to them, 'It is written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer," but you make it a den of robbers.'”
And then in Mark, chapter 11, verses 15-17,
"And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. And he was teaching them and saying to them, 'Is it not written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations"? But you have made it a den of robbers.'”
And so, he's referring back to the prophets. It looks like a couple times here he's back in, like Isaiah, chapter 56, in verse 7, it says, last part of it,
"'for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.'"
He's also referring, it looks like, to the prophet Jeremiah, who in chapter 7, verse 11,
"'Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the Lord.'"
So, he's. It's very interesting that Jesus is referring to these Old Testament prophets, these Old Testament sayings, things that the Jews would have known about in really elevating the status of the temple and how important it was that they take it seriously.
That thought of the house of prayer, though, is, I think, very interesting, because if you look all the way back to, kind of like you were saying, the initial Temple—Solomon's Temple is what they called the first Temple—prayer was a major part of that.
So, like Jesus says in Matthew and Mark, it's a house of prayer, or in Mark, a house for prayer for all the nations. It's very interesting to look in 1 Kings, in chapter 8, when Solomon—there's another account of him, just like in Chronicles, he's making this, like, opening dedication—and prayer just shows up so many times.
And not only prayer, but the name of God also. It's a place where prayer takes place among the people, and it's a place where God's name dwells as well.
Sec— or in 1 Kings, chapter 8, and in verse 19,
"'Nevertheless, you shall not build the house, but your son who shall be born to you shall build the house for my name.’"
He says. Anyway, very interesting how much prayer comes into place there.
A few more verses. It's a huge, it's almost the whole chapter. So, I'll just see if I can pick out a few verses here where he points that out. I can come back to it. But anyway, some thoughts on the topic of prayer, though?
Yeah, well. And what the temple was intended for initially versus obviously what it became when Jesus came on the scene.
It's. To me, it's not too dissimilar from some. I just got done finishing another post about the Sabbath and how the Sabbath was initiated to be a certain thing for rest, and then the Pharisees made it a way to be very works oriented. And so, it's. Which is very bizarre because the most unrestful rest probably there was because there's like so many rules surrounding rest and the Sabbath. And the temple, it's, it was a way for people obviously to commune with God, to communicate, for God to communicate with man and to atone for sin. And then it turned into something completely different than that. It turned into a, well, "Here, buy my pigeon." Right? Buy my special, you know, brand of sacrifice, so that you. And it turned into just a very—again, kind of my understanding anyways—a very works based, non, a non-relational, faith or religion. It became religious. And so, yeah, it's like it was intended to be a house of prayer and yet it turned into something completely different over the years. And it's like a slow burn.
Slowly but surely the people grew farther away from God being led by the religious leaders. And they were under the impression they're getting closer to God, but very slowly they were being led farther and farther away because it was nothing about relation. It's all about works.
Yeah. I'll just read out a few of these verses here in 1 Kings, chapter 8 and verse 27.
“'But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! Yet have regard to the prayer of your servant and to his plea, O Lord my God, listening to the cry and to the prayer that your servant prays before you this day,'"
And then going on to verse 33.
“'When your people Israel are defeated before the enemy because they have sinned against you, and if they turn again to you and acknowledge your name and pray and plead with you in this house,'"
Verse 37.
“'If there is famine in the land, if there is pestilence or blight or mildew or locust or caterpillar, if their enemy besieges them in the land at their gates, whatever plague, whatever sickness there is, whatever prayer, whatever plea is made by any man or by all your people Israel, each knowing the affliction of his own heart and stretching out his hands toward this house, then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know,'"
Goes on to even talking about all nations in verse 41.
“'Likewise, when a foreigner, who is not of your people Israel, comes from a far country for your name's sake (for they shall hear of your great name and your mighty hand, and of your outstretched arm), when he comes and prays toward this house, hear in heaven your dwelling place and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to you,'"
Verse 45, "'then hear in heaven their prayer.'"
So anyway, it's really setting it up as how the temple is a place of prayer. And then we become that, like, that's one of the key things that sets the temple, I think, apart is that it's a prayer, it's for communing with God.
Yeah.
And then. So then if. If the people believe the temple to be something, and then Jesus is like, I'm the temple. But the people are like, well, the temple is just. It's a. There's nothing. There's nothing. There's no substance to it. It's just. It's just something that we do to, you know, check off a box. Like, well, then Jesus saying that he's the temple. It's like people won't really recognize him probably. As for what it is.
Right.
And what they're supposed to do with that.
I like that they just. Sorry.
Oh no.
That the disciples figured it out, you know, at his death. They figured out what he really meant by that. Because obviously you can't destroy the temple and have him rebuild it in three days, the physical building. But how cool for them to have these prophetic words as gifts. Kind of he left behind for them.
Yeah. I was just thinking about how like, the other thing that. That happened in the temple, like with the, like, sacrifices and like, you know, in Leviticus it talks about like burning grains or like. Or obviously like, you know, ox and bulls and goats and all this kind of stuff for different. There was different rituals for like, different atoning. Atoning for different sins like cereal and grain offerings and blah, blah, blah. And. And there was always this something about like, let's correct our, like, covenant. You know, basically our relationship with God. Like, we have to correct our relationship with God in the temple through sacrifice. And unlike. So, when Jesus, like, basically is the living sacrifice and, you know, he. He's. Yeah, I mean, it's. I don't really know where I'm going with that. But just the fact that he's. He is the temple, but he's also the sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice of the temple.
Well, yeah, because it's like there's again, kind of goes back to the foreshadowing because the. I mean, Jesus as the perfect sacrifice, the. The one without blemish, the one without sin. It's like if people could really catch on to what they've been taught for all these years about what the temple is and the significance of it, and then they can see that in Jesus, they'd be like, oh my gosh, like everything's changing now. But again, the Pharisees were getting in the way of something beautiful. It's like, well, what are you doing? Like, I'm, I'm coming on the scene to let people know that the thing that they been taught for years and years is they're going to get a misconception about who I am.
And so, yeah, again, the foreshadowing of Jesus, the temple is showing the people that once Jesus comes on the scene, he's going to be. He is the temple for sure. And I love what actually you were just saying about, about that too, because I'd also looked up in Romans, because when there's a call in Romans, Romans 12:1.
And so, Paul's saying,
"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."
And so, that's like another example about, well, we don't sacrifice like they did in the temple anymore, but we present our bodies as a living sacrifice. And I think that's something that is. Again, there's so much complexity when you start to really read the Bible and get into it and it's so beautiful. And we really start to realize like, what a significant role Christ and Jesus had coming on the scene. And then just another example, when he cleared the temple courts, it's like it was for a good reason.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can I just add one last comment to that? How, you know, there's this idea of sacrifice so that there is like covenant with God. Like they're two go together. Like, the new covenant with God is through Christ. Like he even says, like, this is, this is my blood of the new covenant. Somewhere later in John, like, well, spoiler alert.
But. But yeah, just the fact that he is the ultimate sacrifice. So, he is the restored covenant with God for us.
Yeah.
I was just thinking kind of bridging together a lot of those thoughts. Where mine, my mind went also was in, I think it's 1 Corinthians that talks about how our bodies are a temple of the Lord. And he talked, he mentions like.
All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. And then he talks about food and then he talks about sexual immorality. And basically, with what we're talking about here is that if my, like, if my body is a temple and it's, it's a house of prayer, basically it does matter what I do with my body. And so, it's not necessarily like going back to like, you're talking about, like, they turn these things into like religion again when we, it's meant to be, you know, the Sabbath is meant to be a day of rest and before we know, it becomes religion again. And I think a lot of people, a lot of believers will make excuses about what we do and we don't do with our body, thinking that it has no bearing on our eternal life because Jesus did die for us, though I think it's pretty plain in Scripture, like, yeah, technically everything is permissible but, or everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. And is what I'm doing honoring the Lord with my body and does it invite the Holy Spirit to continue to like reside in me as a temple or is it not that way? And that's just like a conviction that I'm like continually having like there's a lot, like technically as a believer, I really don't think Christians have a lot of rules. I don't think it's a rule-based sort of relationship that I'm in with the Lord. Technically speaking, I can do whatever I want, but I've learned that not everything is going to benefit me and not everything is going to lead me to that like divine intimacy that you're talking about with the Lord or even with other people. There's my thoughts.
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
Yeah. In John, when the, when he was clearing out the temple, when Jesus was clearing out the temple and then he was asked, what sign do you show us for doing these things?
And the, The Living Bible actually says, “'What right have you to order them out?' the Jewish leaders demanded. 'If you have this authority from God, show us a miracle to prove it.'”
And Jesus didn't say, it's because I calmed the storm. He didn't say, it's because I fed the 5,000. He didn't say it's because I heal the sick.
What he said is, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." He's talking about his own sacrifice. That's the authority that he has to cleanse the temple.
They probably didn't even see that.
They didn't see it. But like you're saying.
They would be the ones to destroy the temple, the very people he's talking to.
And like you're saying in 1 Corinthians, in chapter 6 there, verse 20, "for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
Verse 19.
"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,"
So.
Right.
It's interesting how that all kind of ties together how Jesus, the very sign, the one sign he said that he has the authority to do that is his sacrifice and then 1 Corinthians kind of reiterates that there as well.
Yeah.
Jesus is so cool.
He's the best.
Can you imagine you're Jesus and you're like, this is what the truth is. And they're like, no, it's not. Okay.
I gotta sacrifice the trifecta of. What is it? Pagliacci's.
That's right. Matt's.
Dick's and.
That's right.
Oh man. No more chocolate today.
You know, what I was thinking what you were reading out of 2 Chronicles, you know that fire of God coming into the temple, that's what lives in us. Like this is what is in us. Those who are believers have the Holy Spirit in us and just have. How incredible is that? Like, I think we just get so caught up in the Christianese language on the temple of the Holy Spirit, like we said, right, that you lose sight of how magnanimous that is and how incredible that is that the God who created the heavens and the earth, who literally breathes the stars, would live in us and be within that temple. Within us. How incredible is that?
Well, yeah, and, and not from like, you know, certainly this is. Like I said in the blog, there's been times when Jesus turned the temple in my own life, the tables in my own. Right? It's like, because, you know, there's been some clearing out that's been needed also. But to that point it's like, how, how serious do we take it that the God that filled that temple with fire and people were on the ground face down because of the awe, like, awe inspiring moment. And we have that in us. And it's like, and how. And what are we doing with that? I mean, I'm asking myself that too at times, right? It's like, what am I doing with that? Because it is, that is again, it's, it's incredibly massive. That is so powerful.
And I think you were saying something about sacrifice and I think that's our sacrifice. We still sacrifice to the temple. We sacrifice by saying our noes, like, this is not what's going to benefit me. God said that it's not going to benefit me. So, I'm going to say no to that. And that's a sacrifice or sacrifice in obedience or sacrifice in time. So, we still have those sacrifices that look different than they did in that day. But.
Well, and by nature, to choose something over something else is to sacrifice. Right? And so, to choose God over everything, to put God at the very top of the hierarchy is by definition to sacrifice everything else for that, for him. And so, it's every day that we put Jesus at the top, then we're sacrificing our own will and our own desires and our own wants to be God.
Yeah, there's another connection here with Solomon's dedication prayer at the temple where he's talking about God's name being there.
So, yeah, in verse 29 there of 1 Kings 8, "'that your eyes may be open night and day toward this house, the place of which you have said, "My name shall be there," that you may listen to the prayer that your servant offers toward this place.'"
Out In Revelation, chapter 3, verse 12 says,
"'"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name."'"
So, temples have the name of God written on them. That's one of the characteristics of a temple.
And that's. So, we've. We're looking at what Jesus said. He.
His temple was his body. And then you're saying that we now our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit. And now there's even something to look forward to in the future. There's a future promise to the one who conquers. There's another temple being a pillar in the temple of my God is what Jesus says there in Revelation. So, it really shows up a lot in the Old Testament, the New Testament and Revelation for the future. It's like this recurring theme of where that is mentioned over and over and over again.
It's almost like he's kind of putting an underline to temple. Like, get this, understand this, this is going to be significant not just in this life, but the one after as well.
Yeah.
That's a good example of holy anger too, when Jesus sets the record straight there.
Yeah, yeah.
Righteous.
Absolutely. Anger is not a sin. Though we're called to be slow to anger. But. Which God is incredibly slow to anger.
Really though.
I mean incredibly slow.
Sometimes I'm like, listen, get there.
Why are you not as upset about this as I am, okay?
So, here's a question.
Yeah.
So, is there like an instance where Jesus in your own life could be putting a whip of cords together and driving some things out of one's own life?
Yikes.
What would that look like? What would it be? Would he do that? And. And if so, what would that look like?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I, like I mentioned the blog, right? There's been times in my life when, you know, Jesus has basically done that, right? Turned the tables and basically just highlighted things that weren't of him, right? And I think that that's something where we have to, a, be students in the sense of, you know, if we're being taught something. Actually, that's something that I think is interesting too, when it comes to quote, unquote, "bad things happening in our life."
That could very well be because he is disrupting the norm and he's. He's getting stuff out of our life that, that is not good because we're going down a path that's going farther and farther away from him. But then, like, something happens and then it just, something is disrupted. It could be pain, could be even tragedy. And then we're like, "How dare you, God?" And he's like, no, this is, this, turn to me during this. And, and it's far better to have a little bit of pain right now than eternity away from Him. It's like, you know, it's like the, as the, the saying or whatever the story goes, you know, a little baby gets taken into the doctor's office to get, you know, some type of, a, some type of vaccine, right? And then the baby doesn't know why the stranger is, you know, pricking him with a needle. But the, but what the baby doesn't understand is that a little bit of pain now is preventing, you know, him from getting very sick later on in life. And so, yeah, it's. And that's where we can embrace the suck.
Because if we trust God, then allow him to, you know, flip the tables and, you know, break out the, the cords.
Yeah. I think that even there are sometimes that God allows those really uncomfortable or painful situations because he's trying to push you into something better. It could be a result of terrible things. It could be a result of, like, your own actions. It could be consequences. But I do think there are some situations that, like, had God not allowed it to get that bad, you might not have ever had the courage or the strength or like, the motivation to move on to something way better that he had for you in the future.
Right.
Something smaller, like in the book This Present Darkness, he talks about the angel putting a sword through the guy's engine and he's in a hurry to get somewhere, so he breaks down and he's trying to figure out like, "Why, God, would you allow this to happen?" What he didn't know is that he would have been in an accident.
Right.
A few miles. And how many times has God saved us from ourselves and we have no idea we'll get to heaven and stand before him and see him throughout our lives? How many times that he stepped in in a way that didn't feel right and didn't maybe feel good in the time, but at the end of the day was always for a benefit.
Yeah.
I like to think about like the people that were selling stuff in like the temple courtyards and how we can put ourselves probably in their shoes sometimes where they're like, "I'm doing something good, like this isn't like a bad thing." And then talk about like having your life disrupted. I mean, a literal example of Jesus disrupting your life. Tossing your table, tossing out your livelihood, saying this is wrong. And then like that, literally we're looking at Jesus in the face saying like, why would you do this to me?
But it's like it's for their greater good because they need to understand what actually is happening here and the, how they've been lulled into, I guess, a false sense of security in their religion. Yeah.
I don't know if you've seen the part of The Chosen where, our listeners, where I think it's Thomas goes before Jesus and asks, why didn't you heal me? Is it Thomas? Whichever, the disciples, anyway, and Jesus has this conversation with him, basically says, 'cause I trust you because I trust you to still follow me, still believe. And I think that in our lives that's where we, where we need to be, right? Where we need to end up in a relationship with him. Whatever it looks like in our lives that we're, we're crying out like, "what's going on, God?" And like David always did, he always came out with like, I'll still trust you, I'll still praise you. I will still worship you.
Yeah. He had a lot of emotions in between.
He did. And we all do. And I think that's, I think that we're allowed to, I think that God honors that and God honors the fact that we're upset or whatever that looks like and we choose to still actively follow him.
Right.
Right.
I think we end up tasting kind of the result of our own choices. I mean, sometimes it might taste bad. And we're like, oh, like, you know, I, maybe I didn't follow the Spirit in this area of my life. Like the times I've been corrected and, and then how, like, we get back on track and we're trying to follow the Spirit, but there's always like, something that, you know, like, tries to tempt you. I mean, we're talking about like, sacrifice, but like, no, I was making a joke about like, you know, eating like 10 burgers or whatever, but really not even talking about food, but just in general. Things that appeal to the senses and things that can go in through our eyes or our ears or the things that we, that we dwell on, like, as far as our attention goes and the things we listen to and the movies we watch. I mean, there's a lot of things that can enter into our temple and sometimes we might experience something as, like, "oh, that actually left me less fulfilled or rather kind of feeling empty." Whereas something that comes from him actually feels life giving and fulfilling and, you know, like, Spirit filled. Like, this is, this is a good thing. Like, I, maybe it hurt in the moment, but the sacrifice led to something better. Like, I felt more peace. I feel consoled. So, I think there's a spiritual kind of like, tasting of like, what happens when you, you know, embrace the suck or when you give into the temptation.
Right, Yep.
Yeah. There's a. When Jesus was referring most likely to this Jeremiah passage here, 7:9-11, it says,
"'Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, "We are delivered!"—only to go on doing all these abominations? Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the Lord.'"
So, I. It's interesting, all the. It's a long list.
Right.
And then later on Jesus says, like, well, you don't actually, because it's an issue of the heart, all. The heart issue could be any one of those things there.
Right.
And so how often could somebody potentially claim, "we are delivered," and then do those things?
Right.
I mean, it clearly, even back then in the actual temple, they were claiming that they were free of all those things, but they actually would go and do those things. And so, it seems like it's not a stretch to say that something very similar could happen in today's modern age, given the sort of the redefinition or the clarification Jesus had with all of those aspects of abominations, as he says in Jeremiah.
Yeah. It's like, are we just Sunday morning Christians? I mean, you walk into the church service and then, you know, by Sunday afternoon you're, you know, cussing out the TV because your football team's behind or I don't know, Monday, you're.
You've been watching me?
I flip my coffee table.
Clean your temple out.
Or even on the way out of the parking lot of church, you're getting upset 'cause there's traffic and you want to get to your favorite lunch spot.
Leave the parking attendants alone.
Yeah.
You decide to go to a big church.
You know what you got yourself into.
Yeah, it's that elaboration on what den of robbers is, is kind of eye opening a little bit.
Yeah.
Can I add to that? I was reading that in those days you had to pay a temple tax and so you had to actually buy this specific coin with your money to give for the temple tax. And what they were doing, actually the den of robbers was taking a fake coin and making it look real. So, they were actually conning people. And that was part of why Jesus was upset.
Yeah. It'd be pretty mad too.
Right?
Yeah.
It's almost implied. Like when Jesus says it's supposed to be a house of prayer, but you've made into a den of thieves. It's almost sounding as if like there was no prayer happening. Like legitimate. I mean, but you've made it a. It's like, it's like it's not happening. It's supposed to be this, but you've made it this.
Yeah.
So, it's almost like it cancels out the prayer part and it's like, so, was there even any like actual like faith, like God directed faith happening in the temple at all?
Right.
I mean, maybe not.
That's a good point.
And I think that's something we can always ask ourselves to then is like, are we, are we just pretending? And is this, is this something that is actually like a relationship with Christ or are we just playing temple?
Yeah.
Not funny.
It's not funny, no. It's funny because I don't do it. No, I'm just kidding. I want to play temple.
And it was, it was probably gradual. It's not like it was just like overnight. It could have been just even one generation to another. Like over time, like they just kind of lost sight of things and.
But they, there were some who did realize that Jesus had a point because Nicodemus in the. Not long after, in the Book of John, he's like, we know that you're from God.
Right.
Like, it. What you're saying is accurate.
Right.
So, fortunately, there were those that were able to be like, oh, yeah, my bad.
I don't just want to play temple.
I'm sure they said it like that, too.
This isn't like a fully complete thought. I was just thinking that you don't see Jesus often that angry. Like, we were just talking about. The Bible says that God is slow to anger and that that situation had him flipping tables. Like, what specifically about this situation was so incredibly offensive to him?
And probably the fact that there were leaders that were misrepresenting God. Like their whole purpose was to represent God and they weren't representing him.
Yeah.
And so. Yeah. You wonder how long. I don't know. How long that stewed before Jesus just like, this is. I'm done with this. This is. This is ridiculous. Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking back to the 2 Chronicles again. And God's presence would have still been in the temple when Jesus walked the earth as well, right? So, for him to actually go to the house of God and to see what's going on there and to recognize his father's been forgotten.
Right.
You know, I'm sure that was part of what stirred the anger there.
Right. And the concern perhaps that he's not. His children aren't going to make it to heaven because they've been misled.
Right.
And they've decided to, you know, basically worship falsehoods.
Right.
And so, there's. And again, the righteous holy anger is because, like, you're. You are taking my kids, God's kids from them. And I'm here to bridge the gap.
Right.
And you're making it very difficult for people to recognize that I'm the bridge between them and God.
He's taking advantage of people.
Right.
And represent God to all the nations, too. Like it says in Mark, a house of prayer for all nations.
So even to represent God to, you know, the foreigner.
Right.
People who had very little knowledge, you know, to go on, but they were kind of depending on.
Right.
Representation to go to. To learn about God. And when they go there.
Right.
To hear, who is this God that I've heard about from the far ends of the earth? And they show up and there's all this trade or scamming or robbing, robbing going on. Yeah. It was even on for them. It was like one of their only glimpses into who God is was very skewed.
Right.
They were desecrating the temple.
All right, well, any closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic for the day?
Yeah, I mean, I think. I think it just, for me, just goes back to the significance of the temple itself, like Solomon's Temple. The intentionality and the purposefulness of building it, and how long it took, how many people it took to make it, and then what it was used for, the significance of it, and then for Jesus to say that he is first the temple and then for us to house the Holy Spirit as temples for the Holy Spirit. It's just. I think we've already kind of said it, you know, a number of times, but it's no small thing. And so, I think the question that we can certainly. I mean, I'll continue to ask myself is, am I housing the Holy Spirit well?
When I was thinking about this, I was thinking about this organization called the Temple Institute out of Israel, and they have actually recreated the temple and everything that will go in it. You can actually go to a museum and see the menorah and see the priestly clothing garments, et cetera. And they have it ready to go because they believe that there will be time to build the third Temple. And I was just thinking about how in awe we are of this and how in awe I have been of this idea that they're training Pharisees today and forgetting, again, like you said, forgetting that I am the temple of the Holy Spirit, you know. And forgetting that I should be in awe of that. I should be in awe of Jesus living in me and being that temple today that walks the earth.
Yeah. And, you know, to your point, Jon, I don't want to get caught up in playing the temple and not even realize it, because playing the temple, I mean, especially if people really were taking the holiness out of the temple and, like, Jesus got really mad about that. I can see how, you know, it can just happen to people. I mean, to us people, where maybe on the inside, you know, there's times where I'm kind of, like, you know, not letting holiness be in my temple or, like. I mean, that sounds extreme, but, like, it also, in part is true. I think we're all looking for greater holiness, but there's times where we can, like, not actually increase in holiness. And I think it's important to remember, like, there's a real temple going on and I need to care for it.
Yeah. I was just thinking how cool it is that it just seems like it was so intentional that God started with his temple in a physical place. To house his Holy Spirit and then moved on to Jesus being the temple and then to each of us and like, how intentional that must have been, but then the uniqueness of. And I. I'm not even sure if this is okay to say, but, like, the Holy Spirit in you interacting with the Holy Spirit in me and how good that can feel to be among community of believers, because I think when you were talking about sometimes, like certain movies we watch or certain things that we partake in and then, like, do we feel good after? And I just started thinking about some of the relationships that I have too. And there are some people that I love to be around and some. And not that I don't love every single person that, like, it's a valuable relationship, but there are definitely some people that, like, I can honestly say I don't think I laugh as hard as I do, except for, like, with this group of people here because of the, I think what is probably that joy and that, like, that, that the, like the Holy Spirit kind of interacting with himself in a way too, of that community and that community of believers coming together and just what an awesome experience that is. So.
That's good.
I think it's interesting how Jesus contrasted the den of robbers with a house of prayer. And it almost is like an indication to us that if we remain prayerful that we won't risk becoming a den of robbers. It's kind of like the opposite or the. It's like they can't exist at the same time, in a sense. So it just seems that if we study more about, you know, how to pray and we do pray, and we make that a priority and we communicate with God and that'll help us be that temple that he desires. And we won't be like a den of robbers, in that case, doing all those things that God doesn't want in his temple. It seems that if prayer is at the forefront, then that'll keep those other things out.
Right. Yeah. Well. And how many times again does Jesus compare his relationship with us to a wedding and the bride? And if somebody is married and they only talk with their spouse on Sundays for maybe like an hour, I mean, is that relationship really going to go very far? Or if that person is stepping out on the relationship time and time again, is that really a relationship? And so, yeah, to stay prayerful, to say prayed up, in the words of Mark Wahlberg, stay prayed up, it's good. But to do that is like, it's a relationship.
Yeah.
Great. Excellent discussion, everybody. Thanks for joining us once again for, for The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care, everybody.
I was gonna say I made a comment how I don't laugh harder than I do with you guys. And I don't know.
Nothing.
You didn't feel like you laughed that much.
Put our monies where our mouths are.
That's right.
Yeah.
Anybody got any good jokes?
Um, what happens—
Are you making this up as you go?
Where does something—
Oh, my gosh.
No way.
You should look it up.
What happens once a year? Once in a year, but twice in a week?
What?
The letter E.
Oh, gosh.
That's good. I like that.
Let me see, let me think of some words.
If you just put words together, maybe it'll make a joke.
It's all in the setup.
It's all in the setup.
It would just be funny if, like, we just ran out of tape, like, right as you're thinking about, your joke.
Keeps going.
And it's done.
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