Episode Transcript
The kids' table. It tries but really can't compete. Forever relegated to live in the shadow of its adult counterpart, the kids' table is the furniture equivalent of Robin compared to Batman, Portland to Seattle, Cougars to Huskies. It's where the bread rolls begin and the turkey ends. Unlike the sturdy, dependable adult table—a piece of distinction mahogany and optional leaves—the kids' table literally folds like a cheap poker table. It's designated seating for accompanied minors and unaccompanied adults. A seat here feels like an unspoken slight, borderline punishment. And for many of us there's been times in our lives that have left us feeling exactly this way, like we've been unfairly and unexpectedly relegated to the kids' table.
There we were, minding our own business, enjoying small talk, football and appetizers in a type of bliss only found with ignorance.
In that moment, life was good and the call to dinner was our Jim Collins moment. We were about to go from Good to Great on this night, and we continued our conversation with Uncle Ron as such.
Drinks in hand, we strolled along the table's edge, carrying on as if equals. And not a care in the world.
We should have known that there was a problem when Uncle Ron suddenly went silent midsentence. We look back, but it's too late. Uncle Ron is down. He's found his place. He's seated. But he's a respected CPA and well-traveled, so losing him early on and toward the head of the table was expected.
We turn our attention to Aunt Jane across the table. Small talking while stationary is difficult enough. Small talking while moving is a deeper level of awkward, but we forge ahead. We chat about the weather and the election while tilting our heads to read the cursive names on creased cardstock. The conversation is a bit forced, but it's nice to be a part of something greater than ourselves, a part of the masses slowly making their way downtable. We look up from another place setting, another that isn't ours, and Aunt Jane is gone. She's down as well. Then Uncle Rick, then Aunt Rachel. One by one, family and friends continue dropping and the herd starts to thin. At this point we do some light deductive reasoning, comparing empty chairs with those still standing.
A couple out of state cousins and someone you're sure wandered in by mistake are all the eligible adults that remain. The end of the table is fast approaching, and as if you're driving a 66 Thunderbird, you start to realize you're about to blow right past this ledge.
Your younger and less accomplished cousin from Minnesota gets the last seat at the adult table, an obvious DEI selection. And that's when you realize the painful truth. Your seat is at the kids' table. Your place setting nearest the toilet and farthest from grace confirms it. Surprise, frustration, confusion. These are all present and accounted for.
Gratitude? Not so much. It felt unfair. At first, we assumed that there must have been a mistake, but we soon realized that our lot was neither an accident nor an oversight. Even worse, we concluded that the host knew exactly what lay before us at the time of our invitation and yet said nothing. No warning, no apology, just unmitigated deceit. And as we double checked the name on the place setting, we realized the only difference between the host and Judas was that Judas had the decency to do his betraying after dinner.
No, a seat at the kids' table is rarely viewed with gratitude or thanksgiving. But perhaps it could be. Charles Dickens once said, "Reflect upon your present blessings, of which every man has many, not on your past misfortunes, of which all men have some." Powerful words considering Dickens was forced to work 10-hour days in a factory as a child.
As Dickens implies, gratitude is a choice. And we know now that the benefit of choosing gratitude is worth the effort. Psychotherapist and best-selling author Amy Morin writes, "Developing an attitude of gratitude is one of the simplest ways to improve your satisfaction with life." Morin explains that there are numerous scientifically proven benefits of gratitude. It opens the door to more relationships, improves physical health, improves psychological health, enhances empathy and reduces aggression, improves sleep, improves self-esteem and increases mental strength. And better yet, developing this gratitude attitude doesn't have to be complicated. New York Times bestselling author Shawn Achor explains that the simple act of maintaining a gratitude journal—that is, writing down three gratitudes each day—is a good place to start. Achor explains that intentional gratitude forces the brain to scan for positive events that occurred over the past 24 hours. Achor writes, because we can only focus on so much at once, our brains push out those small annoyances and frustrations that used to loom large in the background, even out of our visual field entirely. He goes on to say that research shows that the positive impact of gratitude is not only far-reaching but also long-lasting. In one study, Achor writes, researchers found that participants who wrote down three gratitudes a day for a week were less depressed and happier at their one-month, three-month and six-month follow-ups. Not a bad return.
Something to keep in mind when we find our name card seemingly misplaced on a dinner plate.
A seat at the kids' table is rarely what we want or expect, but it's not in our control, really. Inevitably, we all find ourselves there at some point. And as we sit on the unpadded piano bench, knees tucked uncomfortably beneath the table's low clearance, we have a choice.
We can either focus on our present blessings, or we can focus on our past or current misfortunes.
I suggest, like comedian John Crist, that we focus on the former.
After an evening at the kids' table, Crist asked, "Why would you want to hear Dave's story about middle class tax cuts when you can hear Dylan's story about how one night all of his stuffed animals came to life and they snuck out and robbed a bank?"
Good question. And a bit profound. Because an increase in misfortune doesn't mean a decrease in blessing. But our focus can easily convince us otherwise. So, as we round the corner toward a new year, let's literally count our blessings, at least three a day. Because if the year has you feeling like you've been demoted to sitting with the kids, then November is our opportunity to not only thank the host for the invitation, but to also give thanks for a seat at the table.
Well, welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/Dr. Jon et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry and psychology, seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
I'm your host, Chris, and we are joined once again with, of course, Dr. Jon, and once again returning to the studio, Robyn and Maxine, and for the first time, Kathy Myhre of Myhre Counseling Services. Welcome, Kathy.
Thank you. It's good to be here.
Yeah. Kathy has 11 years experience as a pastor in the Foursquare churches. She's owned her own counseling business for years as well here.
20 plus years.
Nice.
Holds a master's in social work, specializes in trauma.
I do.
And we're excited to have her part of the group here.
Well, we are embarking on season two of our podcast here and take a quick departure from the book of John here to focus on the word "thanks." Looking at gratitude here. And our key verse for the day is 1 Thessalonians, Scripture is 1 Thessalonians, chapter 5, verses 16 through 18. Reading out of the ESV.
"Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you."
Dr. Jon, you had an opening blog on the topic of thanks and let's go ahead with opening thoughts around the room.
Yeah, so the topic of thanks especially, I think from like a psychological perspective, it really, like when I'm in therapy, I'll use, like a gratitude journal as one of the first things to do as, like a homework assignment.
And a lot of times that helps with depression symptoms. But I think sometimes it's also overlooked a little bit that gratitude is directly connected with anxiety also. So, I just kind of wanted to also highlight that.
And one of my favorite verses is Philippians 4:6-7, from the ESV, and it says, "do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."
And that kind of walking through that a little bit.
First, it's told to us, be anxious about nothing. Like, don't be anxious at all. But how we do that? Well, through prayer and supplication, so asking humbly and earnestly about everything.
But then it's with thanksgiving and so with thanks, make your requests known. And I think that that is an amazing thing because I think what that can kind of be telling us a little bit is don't just ask, but then also be grateful for what hasn't happened yet. And that also builds our faith.
And so. And then. And the peace of God, which surpasses understanding doesn't make sense. The peace that we would have in those moments where we should be anxious, we should be stressed, we should be, you know, even, you know, perhaps depressed.
It supersedes all of that.
And then it guards our heart and our minds in Christ Jesus. So, our thoughts and basically our emotions is all covered through that. So, gratitude, it's not just psychological, which is massively powerful psychologically, but there's definitely a spiritual component, too, which is really helpful.
Great. Next around the table, Maxine.
Sure. Yeah. I was really inspired by your blog, and especially the part towards the end where you talked about how we have a choice about what we're going to choose to focus on. And so, it reminded me of the quote, whatever we focus on increases or magnifies. And I remember reading, I've heard it said that if you like, in terms of offense, for example, if you ruminate on offense, let's say you rehearse it 20 times in your brain. Your brain actually responds as if it's happened to you 20 times, which I thought was so interesting. And so, I think the same could probably be applied to thanksgiving, that if we actually choose to ruminate and think over and rehearse the good things that have happened, that we can actually almost change the experience of that situation as well. So, I thought that was some kind of cool brain science to put behind that quote that we can actually yeah change our experience just based on how we choose to, what we choose to focus on and think about.
Yeah, it's like a cognitive rehearsal. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I do think that gratitude is a, it's a behavior, it's a mindset, but I think it goes deeper. I think it's an essential component of healthy, mature spiritual formation.
And when I think of gratitude, I don't think of just a quick response to something, but an attitude of the heart that's really a precursor to the gifts, you know, to the fruit of the spirit. I think a truly grateful person will become more loving and more peaceful and kinder and more faithful and more self-controlled.
That's good.
I guess my brain was going the same place as your guys' was going, that that attitude of gratefulness is, I mean, the scripture that came to mind—I'll probably use the scripture a lot because I just love it so much. But it's being transformed by the renewing of our mind. And I feel like actively engaging and being intentional—thanking God for what he's given us or what he's done or what he's yet to do—is a great way to actively change our mind about things and change ourselves.
I personally benefited a lot from just getting in the habit of thanking the Lord for what he's done and seen depression lift off of my life just through that practice alone.
And it's not that it's magical or anything like that, but I think our perspective is powerful. And when we can choose to do even a very simple thing like choosing to give thanks, it challenges us. We find we have a lot more to be grateful for than we realize. And it can change us too. So that's definitely on board with where you guys were.
Yeah. I looked up gratitude on psychologytoday.com and it says there "Gratitude is both a temporary feeling and a dispositional trait. In both cases, gratitude involves a process of recognizing, first, that one has obtained a positive outcome and, second, that there is an external source for that good outcome."
So got two things working together there. And I think it's interesting some people might have one, but not the other.
For the one who sees good outcomes but doesn't see an external source of those outcomes, that could be perhaps narcissistic or selfish kind of behavior.
And then perhaps at the other side, if somebody doesn't see positive outcomes but does recognize external sources, that maybe that's a victimhood mentality, perhaps. It's so. Anyway, any thoughts on that? How those two things both need to work together in order to really feel gratitude? And have you ever seen people who need encouragement in one of those two areas? Either more encouragement in seeing the positive or perhaps more encouragement in seeing the external sources of those outcomes? Is there a tendency for people to see one and not the other?
Right. Yeah. So, there's the external and then there's actual, the thing that is positive.
Yeah. That a positive event is occurring, recognizing that there are positive events at all. And then secondly, that something external is the source of those.
Yeah. Did it. Did it go into what the external source was at all?
I think just a external source.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts. I don't know if it's related to it, but, you know, I think for the most part, what I found in my practice, and certainly neuroscience shows this to be true, is that our brains have a negativity bias. We tend to remember negative things in a much stronger way than positive things. And, you know, and we all have identified, you know, there could be, we could have a wonderfully fulfilling life, but there's one area in which we're disappointed in, whether it's our finances or our marital status or our health.
And our brain, without our permission, will want to hyper focus on that one area.
And then we can get the feeling that our whole life is defined by that. And so, I think gratitude is essential in healthy neurochemistry and in healthy psychology because it's a way to overcome that negativity bias. You know, it's, "what else is going on here?" kind of a perspective. And so, anytime I'm working with somebody with depression or anxiety, it becomes essential that they can pull the lens out and give the situation that they're focusing on more of a landscape view. And not only what else is going on here, but for the Christian, it's, "Lord, who are you through this situation?"
And, you know, "what do you want me to hear? What do you want me to learn? And what are you doing through this situation?"
And so, you know, I think certainly the external source can be the Lord. It is for me.
And that's the only stable external source.
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like you were saying, it's almost like people get caught up in a couple of different cognitive distortions, which is disqualifying the positive. And so that's kind of like you're saying, like, like every lot of things can go right, but then one thing goes wrong, and then that's kind of the. That takes the main stage and there's catastrophizing and so like blowing things up out of proportion, basically. So, when those two things are kind of happening simultaneously, you know. Yeah, it's the, it's the kid in class who gets, you know, all A's except for, you know, one C or a D. But then they're, they're "stupid" because they got that and kind of like you were saying, like with depression. Yeah, totally agree. We have a tough time compartmentalizing if we do, if something does go poorly. And so, we think that might apply to everything in our lives. And so. Yeah, I mean basically just echoing what you're saying is. Yeah, that's, that's, it's really important that we understand that just because something goes sideways or wrong, we're having a rough moment even doesn't mean that it's going to be like that's the whole end all. But then, agreed also, like the external source. What is your external source? Because if things go right, then what, you just got lucky? Or like this is just something that's a positive thing just because like, you know.
Your own merit.
It happened to be a good day? Yeah.
What would you say to someone who, I guess, because I think that we are understanding the power of gratitude in our own lives. But I do think that if I were to come into your office and I had suffered tremendous trauma and I'm feeling very depressed, anxious, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then you were to be like, "let's be grateful. Here's a gratitude journal." Yeah, I like, I just wonder about just kind of not to minimize what they go through. But I just. How, like, how would you address that? I guess.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
Yeah. So, with. That's when. That's one of my first assignments that I give.
A lot of times I'd say more often than not it comes back incomplete or not even touched. And so, then you know, okay, let's try it again. And it's really. For me it turns into just like how slow of a process does this need to be? I encourage them. I say as soon as we start being grateful, it does start to change. The brain chemistry and the neuro connectivity starts to, I mean just like the blog says, it actually starts to change the way we perceive things.
So, I would just say take small steps and do your best and if you can come up with one gratitude this week, then let's start there and then let's just build off of it. But yeah, it's like no one, when you're really in the throes of it wants to like be really forcefully happy.
Right.
But it's a, but it's, it's a, it's a choice though. And it does come down to what. Either you want to focus on this or you're willing to really do the hard work. And it is hard work sometimes for sure. Or you want to stay in the misery.
Well, I love that question. I think that's a really good question that a lot of the hearers are going to be struggling with.
It reminds me of a time years ago when I was facilitating a recovery program at the church and we had a young woman who came. Her husband had died, I think it was the day before in a freak work-related accident. She was having a lot of extended family flying in the next morning and ran to the church because she needed the support of her small group. And as she shared what she had been going through, there was a woman in her group that started singing. Put on the garment of praise for spirit of heaviness.
Isn't there a proverb about not doing that?
And. And it was really hard. So what gratitude is not. It's not the denial of pain, you know, and as a matter of fact, that kind of cheap gratitude, it can't result in, I don't think, a genuine heart that is truly grateful. Sometimes you cannot really grasp how good the good is until you grasp how bad the bad is.
And I think, you know, we're to comfort each other with the comfort we've received, but if we don't acknowledge the bad that's going on, we'll push away any comfort that comes. Well, that what I just described was not comfort and that probably had to do more with the hearers discomfort in the topic that was being addressed.
And so, for a lot of people going through tremendous adversity, we have to understand that sometimes it will be days and days and weeks and weeks, maybe even months and months before they're able to come enough out of the fog where they can really feel, you know, thanksgiving.
But we can lean them in a direction of, you know, asking them what kind of good do you think God could bring out of a situation like this? That's actually one of the questions in the critical incident stress debriefings, you know, that we do after traumatic events.
So, I think it's important to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think you guys both nailed that. Like that was kind of where I was going with that because I can just see people being like, "let's not minimize what I've been through by just being grateful." But, you know, the power of turning that around. And like you said too, like, how long of a process is this? Could be a long process, you know.
Sure.
Worth it, but it could be long.
Yeah, I definitely wanted to touch on that too. Of like, none of us are advertising for toxic positivity.
Right. Yeah.
We can also be, you know, led to do, even as Christians. Right? Because we're supposed to always look up. And so that was a really great example. So, when I think about it too, it's like you've. There's biblical examples, right? We've had the whole book of Lamentations. And even in the Psalms, there's so many psalms that start off with acknowledgment of saying, like, my soul is in anguish. Like, I feel abandoned. Where are you, God? And then towards the end, there's, there's the declaration of like, but I know that you are faithful. But there is a time and there's a place to grieve and to recognize those things. So, I definitely hear you on that. And then one of my favorite life scriptures is Romans 8:28, and it says, "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." So, I love, Kathy, what you brought up about, and that's what we're trained in coaching as well to do, is talking to someone who's going through something hard and saying, well, if God has meant this somehow for your good, like, what do you see God doing? What is he forming in you? What is he doing in you and through you? And so, I think those are really great questions to ask.
Yeah. On Wikipedia, it says, regarding, in the Old Testament, the thank offering or sacrifice of thanksgiving was an optional offering under the law of Moses. It wasn't really required, it was just kind of, and there wasn't a set time, like it has to be done on a certain date or anything like that. But it was kind of left up as an option.
And it seems interesting, obviously on purpose. Everything is intentional in the Old Testament. And why do you think it would be optional, like, of all the offerings that were given, at least in the Old Testament? I just find that interesting.
Well, I guess I kind of equate it to, like, a kid that opens up a gift on Christmas. And, like, would a parent rather a kid be grateful from their heart or, like, now you be grateful? Are you grateful? Yes, you are. So, like, how much more beautiful is it when we actually get to that place ourselves, to where we are expressing gratitude because it comes from within, not because it's a mandatory rule or something that we need to do in order to, I don't know, to check a box.
Yeah. It seems like that's one of the things where, seems like God's like, no, this is going to be, it's gonna be you. And, and when you get there, I'd love, I'd love to have, have that conversation with you and to receive that, that thanks, but I'm not going to make you.
That's a great point. Yeah, yeah. Because he knows the difference, doesn't he?
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Whether we're just checking a box or.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, when Jesus came on the scene, I mean, so many boxes were being checked, and he's like, we, we missed the point here.
And Jon, you bring up another point too. I just. In the Old Testament, there are so many places where the Lord will tell his people, remember, remember, you know, and somehow as human beings, I think it's the Holy Spirit reminding us that we need to remember what God has done in our life and when we can, and sometimes I will do what I call some resource development with clients where I'll ask them to identify times in their life when they felt really good about life or when they accomplished something that they were really grateful for, a time when God showed up in a miraculous way or just one of their powerful spiritual markers.
And by anchoring to those experiences of what God's done in our life, I think the natural byproduct, the more and more we do that, is this just state of gratitude that Chris was talking about.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Sometimes what I'll do in session with the gratitudes is when they write them down, I'll say, okay, now put them in a jar and keep filling up the jar. Because some weeks or days, you might not feel super like anything's going right, but you pull something out from the jar and you remember when things have gone right. And it's kind of like that's a reflection. So, yeah, from the spiritual standpoint, it's, remember what God has done for you. Psychological, it's a little bit, I don't think it's quite obviously nearly as deep, but it's a reminder that there are good things that happen. But, man, the bad times can really make us think that there's nothing good. And almost like, it's almost like a reset. "My life is horrible now." What we need to remember that it's just, it's. It's always momentary. And when I talk to a client, I'll talk to them.
And more so when I've worked with them for maybe like an extended period of time, and I tell them, no, you will be okay. You're going to get through this. And you know how I know this and like, "well how?" it's like, because you always have. You've never, it's never not happened where you've gotten through this. And now we just need to hang in there and keep moving forward.
There's a quote by attributed to Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Life Together: The Classic Exploration of Christian Community.
It's a big one.
It says, "In the Christian community thankfulness is just what it is anywhere else in the Christian life. Only he who gives thanks for little things receives the big things. We prevent God from giving us the great spiritual gifts He has in store for us, because we do not give thanks for daily gifts. We think we dare not be satisfied with the small measure of spiritual knowledge, experience, and love that has been given to us, and that we must constantly be looking forward eagerly for the highest good. Then we deplore the fact that we lack the deep certainty, the strong faith, and the rich experience that God has given to others, and we consider this lament to be pious. We pray for the big things and forget to give thanks for the ordinary, small (and yet really not small) gifts. How can God entrust great things to one who will not thankfully receive from Him the little things? If we do not give thanks daily for the Christian fellowship in which we have been placed, even where there is no great experience, no discoverable riches, but much weakness, small faith, and difficulty; if on the contrary, we only keep complaining to God that everything is so paltry and petty, so far from what we expected, then we hinder God from letting our fellowship grow according to the measure and riches which are there for us all in Jesus Christ.”
So, Dietrich Bonhoeffer is suggesting that there's really no thing that is too small to be thankful for. I mean, it's daily little things. Right?
And that, I would think, would be a great starting point for just about anybody who's being counseled or coached or perhaps being educated and needs a starting point.
Just about anybody, I think, could come up with something small.
Um, is. Is there. Would that be difficult that you think to suggest to somebody something really very small to be thankful for? Like, I gotta start somewhere, right?
Right. Yeah. And that, in my experience, that's the tricky part is because I can even suggest certain things if there's, like, nothing there. And like, well, what about, you know, did you sleep in a bed last night. Like, yeah, but. But it doesn't cross the threshold for some reason for. Or they don't.
I don't know. I don't want to put the onus completely on them, necessarily, because there's. There's a lot that they may be going through, but it's like. But. Or they're choosing not to recognize it as a positive, which I think that is what it comes down to, because logically speaking, if you get to wake up in a bed with, you know, a roof over your head, that is. That is. There's no argument there. That's a good thing.
Right.
Like, that is. That is something to be grateful for. So, I guess it does end up being a choice. But there's something so deep, such deep pain. But, yeah, you have to start somewhere.
You do.
And. Yeah.
That's actually.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Okay.
All right. I was just saying, as I'm hearing you talk, you know, I think one of the things that's important to know is that we don't all start in the same place. You know, if I'm raised in a loving home with nurturing enough and stable enough parents, predictable enough life, and I've had good things in my life, maybe it's not so much of a stretch for me to be thankful in small things, but if I've been raised in a home where my dad's a drug addict and, you know, he's been in prison for 20 years, and my mom's on her third marriage, and I was, you know, abused by one of the stepdads, and I've been alone and not fed, it is a little bit more of a struggle. And so, you know, helping people to see just like what you're saying, Jon, some of the little blessings, as long as we understand that for some people, it's going to be hard at first to do that, but it's just so essential.
And even starting with our kids, you know, as you were talking, I thought about a story when my kids were really young. My daughter was five, and my ADHD, Ring of Fire, sun. By the way, I'm 65 now, so I have grandkids, but this was back in the vaults of my memory.
We were at my best friend's house for Christmas Eve, and she had. She knew my kids very well, and she had lovingly picked out a gift for each of them. And Garrett opened up his gift first, and it was this highly stimulating toy with marbles and bells and whistles and lights and water.
And we put it together and we had so much fun. And then Leanna opened up her gift. And my friend knew that my daughter Leanna had a love for animals. And it was Jim Harriet's Treasures for Children. And if you've never had. It's my favorite children's book.
And I could tell Leanna opened it up and politely said to Auntie Sharon, thank you. But she put it down and then went to play with Garrett's toy. And I could tell by looking at her she didn't understand yet. What, how.
What incredible a gift it was until about two weeks later, when Garrett's gift was already in the garbage. And I came home from work and Leanna sitting on her dad's lap, and they were reading out of this book, and she looked up, up at me with a little tear down her eye, and she said, "Mommy, you were right. This. This is so special." And she named the book "The Spesh."
And so, I think sometimes we struggle with gratitude because we just haven't yet experienced, you know, the goodness that God has.
Yeah.
That's really good.
One more verse here in the New Testament, In Colossians, chapter 3, beginning in verse 12, says, "Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful."
I think it's interesting, and that's out of the ESV, how "And be thankful" gets its own standalone sentence there. I mean, these other ones, they're grouped together. There's explanations for it, there's reasoning for it, and then it tacks on at the end and be thankful. Like, there's no. There's no randomness to it. I mean, there's a purpose, I think. I just wonder, like, is it self-evident almost.
Right.
Like. Or is it. It's interesting how it is telling you to do that. You know, be thankful. And that word there in the Greek there, it talks about in the interlinear Bible, defines that as thankful for God's grace, working out what is good.
That's, and another, looking at that word again, perhaps acknowledging that God's grace works well, a related word there. So, acknowledging that somebody is doing something good to you for you and that that's for your good. It's just acknowledging it. You don't have to reciprocate you don't like an equal pay it back or pay it forward, Just acknowledge it.
Right.
Just acknowledge that God's goodness is upon you. And I like how it, it does have that reminder there. And it's in the midst of all this, these other things that are related in, in relating to others, forgiving each other, that's a relational thing, bearing with one another compassion, these are all relating to other people. And be thankful somehow that also is somehow tied into relating to other people, it would seem, at least that's the context there. Somehow being thankful will affect our relations with other people, it would seem. So as subtle as it may be, somehow it would seem that there's some type of connection there in community, in the act of thankfulness.
Yeah, I like how thankfulness and thanks. It's kind of like the Where's Waldo, like in the Bible. It's just like where's it going to pop up next? It seems like it does seem kind of randomly like. But there it is, it's like, oh, there's another one. It's like, and be thankful and be thankful.
And I think that it does create better relationships because I think you were touching on it earlier, Kathy, just, it does create, it creates a better ability to love and to care and, and those things are massively important when it comes to relationships. I guess the opposite would be the opposite of, you know, gratitude. It would be just like ungratefulness obviously. But it's like, then it's just like a bitterness and there's like, it's really easy to be bitter. Really easy to be.
I think it's entitlement maybe too.
Yeah. Or if anything does go good, then it's, it's, yeah, because I did like I earned this or I deserve this or I should. Right? "Should statements," another cognitive distortion. So, it's, yeah. So, entitlement. And then, yeah, if we don't have that chip on our shoulder, then we can really. I mean, who wants to be around someone who's always just like, I don't know, resentful and bitter and unforgiving?
I'd love to keep talking about how do we give thanks in difficult situations? And I'm sure maybe a story comes into mind for each of you, but I have a couple stories that come to mind, but for me, which one do I want to share? So, a number of years ago I was called to ministry school and it was obviously a really big thing in my life, but the Lord was very clear about not going right away. And it started this very long three-year journey of actually having to wait on the Lord. And it was just so difficult to hold on to hope and steward that hope as I was waiting for this, this thing to come to pass. And it was just a really difficult season for me.
And after the fact, I think being able to look back, I now see the goodness of the Lord in that. So, for example, during that period I learned a lot of keys for how to steward hope that I actually use now in my coaching with my clients as well. And looking back also, I can see the divine timing of the Lord where there are things that I completely would have missed out, including getting certified as a coach because the program didn't start until three years later that I wouldn't have had an opportunity continue to do. So, I think that was a big one. And then more recently, very, very near and sensitive to my heart was a couple weeks ago I had this huge sink debacle. So basically, I was just trying to replace a kitchen sink. And I've now learned that apparently when you start to do one thing, it just snowballs into like a billion other things. And so, I just remember feeling so overwhelmed. It was so triggering. It was like just having to deal with like, I wish I was married, you know, like having to deal with all this by myself, the snowballing costs, all those things. And I don't think any of us are probably super great at like being grateful in the moment, but I do think afterwards I made sure to talk it out with some people that I, that have wisdom to just say like, I don't want to leave this experience saying "thank God that happened. I never want to think about that again." I wanted to leave this situation thinking, "how can I mine this experience for what was God doing in my life and how he was working in my life and what was he forming in me?" And so, even just the example of like, oh, I wish I had a husband that I could just outsource all of this stress to. At the same time, like, I learned that I can do really hard things. And it developed in me like a perseverance and a self-confidence to know that I can do hard things. And that's actually going to get me a lot further than like trying to just export it out and to be thankful that I actually have the funds to be able to afford the extra thousand dollars that this cost. So anyway, I think that was just a really good reminder to always kind of mine those experiences. And yeah, we can choose how we want to frame those situations even after the fact as well. So.
Yeah, yeah.
Does anybody else have any stories they want to share?
I had a laundry situation that kind of was the same way.
I feel your pain.
Wish I had a wife.
You're going to leave us hanging?
There was no laundry situation, was there?
No. No.
That was just a really good joke.
I think that there's a lot. Kind of like we were talking before. How, if you're grateful for the small things, then it can. You can be, you know, grateful for the bigger things. And so, you know, there. I think. I think that progressively throughout my life, like, there's been situations and challenges that have gotten more bigger and bigger. And I think that's just the good thing about practicing gratitude as small as you can is because the big things are coming. And when those things come, you don't want to look at a trial. And then that. That's the thing that totally screws you up. So, like, yeah, I've had situations where, what was one of them? Well, it's like my clinic burned down that I was interning at.
That's a bummer.
Yes. That was one of the bigger ones, right. That I was. I was. I was. I was led up to take that, you know, that difficulty.
Yeah, I was. I was sitting there in the, in my office and I was doing some work, and then I hear someone yell out in the hallway, like, "there's a fire!" And so, I go up to the hallway and I look to my left and the whole wall at the end of the hallway is just engulfed in flame. And I run inside and I get my supervisor. I said, "we gotta get out of here. There's a fire." And we got out of there. We're kind of like ducking under the smoke and everything. By the time we got out, we got a good distance away, and it was only a few minutes later that the entire building was completely engulfed. And it was completely. It was like a total loss. So, I didn't have a room to work out of, didn't have an office to work out of. But it's one of those moments where it's. It's. I wasn't concerned, like, "oh, my gosh, where I get my hours from, what am I going to do next?" Because I think that I looked for the small gratitudes all along the way. I just knew it was going to work out. Yeah, it wasn't anything that, like, stressed me out.
When I moved to California for a different internship. And then day three. Yeah, I walk out into the parking lot, and then my supervisor there said, "this isn't going to work out." So, I'd moved to California. I think I might have shared this before, perhaps, but it's just like, yeah, I wasn't stressed. I mean, a little bit stressful, but it's like, okay, what's God going to do through this?
Yeah. Then my clinic closing in Bothell, in 2019. Didn't know what was going to happen. It was like three days before Christmas. I get a call saying we're going to be closed by the new year, so you need to clean out your office and everything. So. But that, you know, led me into private practice. And so, I don't know, between. Between good things coming from difficult situations and God working all things together for good, whether it's his plan that difficult things are supposed to happen, or it's, it's in spite of the difficulty that's going to make things work well, we win.
Yeah.
We always win.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a situation a little while. Well, maybe it doesn't matter how long ago. It was a while ago, where I just, like, I had this experience where it felt like a dream I had had just died. Like, I just been planning and preparing for this thing, and it just could not come to fruition. And so, I had to really. At first, I was like. Like they say with grief, like, you're just in denial.
Oh, I'm having this weird response that everything's fine. And then when it finally hit, it hit hard. And I remember I was at the house I was living in with some roommates, and they were all gone. And I just felt like I was like, in this, like. Well, I told. I told my roommate later. It was a spiritual battle of my life. And then it. I later realized I might have been just hormonal. But the point really is, is, like, it was very real in my mind and, like, my emotions were very, very strong. And I remember I had, like, worship set on, and all I could really do through, like, tears was, like, lift my hands. Like, I didn't have words. I didn't have anything else. But it was like this decision that I was making. So even though my emotions were driving me into a very different place, like, I just was setting my will that I was going to worship the Lord either way. And I mean, however long later, it's not like, you know, oh, all of a sudden everything just turned out and it was all great and it actually did happen. That's not the case. But it's like God has been consistent and faithful, and my perspective has been able to change on that because God is still working something good through that. So, yeah.
I have a couple things that come to mind. I. So, I'm going to age myself right now. I've been actually practicing since 1981.
That's three years before I was born.
That's before I was born. I wasn't going to say it though.
Thank you for that.
I was just validating.
Thank you.
I was validating you.
And so, I, I took off a few years to raise my kids, you know, so I was out of the field for about seven years and then I decided it's time to go back. Well, the laws in Washington state changed and now clinicians had to be licensed and I missed the grandfathering date for licensure by three days.
Oh, wow.
Which meant I had to take the level C board exam.
I had to go through all the hoops, the, you know, classes and everything like that that you needed to take. And I was copping a major bummer for about three days. And then I thought, "okay, Lord, let's do this. I know this is your will." And so, they, they didn't even have prep classes for the board exam. We had a bibliography. And so, I just went to town and I read, you know, till, you know, one or two o'clock every morning. And I passed the board exam. But what I wasn't anticipating is that afterward, it so boosted my confidence, my, in my clinical knowledge and in my professional competency that I thought, "Lord, you really knew what you were doing," you know, and that. And I can look back at that and by remembering that experience. First of all, I'm not as afraid of adversity that comes. And I'm just genuinely, helped me to genuinely trust the Lord through every situation.
And then the second thing I had mentioned during the break is I got Covid very early in January of 2020, which meant I got to pay for all of my Covid treatment. And I was hospitalized a couple times and it was over $11,000. And so, I was again, really, really bummed and advocated for myself by getting a, my own Covid antibody test and then was told by my medical, you know, providers in the hospital that this just proves I had Covid, but doesn't prove that that's what they treated me for.
And so, I thought, well, what, what am I going to do about this? And, and I just, you know, pressed into the Lord and I did a little cognitive reframe.
I started feeling naturally, just so grateful that I had the funds, like you were saying, to really be able to pay for, you know, pay for those bills. And the reframe I did is that in 2020, I gave a sizable donation to the Sisters of Providence. And it remarkably felt so different because what we focus on really, really translates. And Jon, you know this to how we feel and then behaviorally, the path we're going to take.
But remembering these things, the times when God showed up, I think has been the biggest anchor to me for gratitude. And he shows up in all of our lives.
That's good.
Yeah. I feel so encouraged because we're all just sharing testimonies and I was looking up, the Hebrew word for testimony actually means do it again. So, like, every time we talk about these things were saying, do it again, Lord. So, we all feel encouraged by that.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was involved at a church for some time and involved in a small group I was attending. And, you know, it's great to finally get plugged in and meet some people there in the church. And then that small group started to wrap up. And I think probably separately, there was some sort of offense that happened in the church. I'm like, I don't know if I just. I don't know if I want to go back.
And it would become easy to discount everything, all the good that had happened. And then at about that time, someone approached me and said, well, hey, it'd be nice to, you know, kind of keep a small group going. Let's, how about, how about, let's host something and then, well, okay, yeah, you know, and so it. Then kind of reframing it. Still be thankful for, you know, prior experience and prior connections there and move forward in that, rather than, you know, say, like, well, maybe it's time to find another church, or maybe it's time to start from scratch all over again. You can. You can still find something to be thankful about the past and overlook offenses and still move forward and which is what a lot of that, you know, Colossians was talking about, you know, forgive people and be thankful. And that's where the growth takes place. It's the opposite of that would be to take offense and uproot. You know, we shouldn't be in the business of uprooting everything that happens in our past. We should be in the business of being thankful for things that happen and continue, you know, to grow. That's kind of the kind of like what Dietrich Bottenhoffer's quote was talking about. Like, the bigger things come along when you're thankful for the smaller things.
Not marinating in the garbage.
That's right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That just doesn't sound fun at all. Why do we do that?
So, I, I wonder about that. We were talking earlier about how there's a tendency in the brain, I think Kathy brought that up, to ruminate on the negative. And I just wondered, is there like a survival instinct? Is that the reason of that? Is that in order to survive, in order to live, I need to focus on what was wrong so that the wrong doesn't happen again? And if that mindset is taking place, does that translate to a lack of faith or a lack of trust that life is external, it comes from an external source. God is our life, Jesus is our life.
Can ruminating on bad things be a way of forgetting that our survival is due to an external, well, really internal when he's in us.
Right. Yeah.
When he's within us and the Holy Spirit in us. But anyway.
Yeah.
Is there, is that, is that part of reframing that whole concept there, that our survival does not depend on identifying every bad thing and ruminating on those bad things?
Right.
There's a great quote that says worrying is imagining a future without God. And so I think that's a, that's a big part of it. Like when we just keep ruminating and then when we worry about things that are going to happen and then they don't happen, we've actually still had to go through the emotional stress as if they happened. So at least.
That's true.
Yeah.
I see this as an element of the flesh, you know, and a lot of us don't realize it, but at the time of the fall, it wasn't just this planet that started decaying and our bodies that started to sag and wrinkle and decay, but our souls fell as well. That comprises of our mind, our thoughts, our will or behaviors, and our emotions, our feelings.
And you know, I do think there's something to it. I think our brain tends to generalize, again without our permission, negative experiences in an ill-fated attempt to protect us. I see that as an element of the flesh. Right?
But we now as Christians, we have to learn to contend with that because the mind is the battlefield of our enemy. And so I think we need to be purposeful and in practices like gratitude and thankfulness in order to fill our minds with, so to so, competing messages. Because the enemy is at work and he's never going to stop. He prowls around like a lion looking for who he's going to devour and he manipulates those painful experiences we've had and you know, lies to us about them.
What about in special education if there's youngsters that are perhaps coming from a challenging home life, or maybe they are just experiencing other challenges developmentally or something like that.
Does gratitude play a role in softening their demeanor and relating with others better and becoming less combative, perhaps? Is that a tool? Is thankfulness a tool that's used at all in the special education system to help them process challenges and relate better with others?
Depending on the student and depending on their situation. I, I think the biggest thing that is coming to mind is us as educators expressing gratitude for them and the things that they're doing well or the things that we see them attempting to do well.
A lot of the kids that I've worked with have come from very well meaning parents who just don't know what to do. Like, they've been through their own issues and their own tough home life, the way that they were raised and whatnot. So they're kind of in, in a way, kids themselves raising kids. And so, they have their, their way of raising kids. And there's a lot of focusing on negatives and, "don't do that," and "don't do that," and lashing out in their own emotions and et cetera, et cetera. And so, a huge part of what we have, we work on is, well, especially a big component is the 5-to-1 ratio, which I'm sure you heard of. Like, for every negative, you need at least five positives to, you know, counteract that negative that you just said. So, we.
And like I say, depending on the student and their cognitive ability. But I think hugely, it's just modeling that idea of, like, I'm really grateful that, you know, you always come behind my desk and crawl my lap and you don't seem to care that I'm working, but, oh, I see that you just stopped and you asked me first. And thank you so much for acknowledging that you want to sit in my lap or acknowledging that my boundaries, like, any little thing that you can think of, any little, like, the littlest things make the biggest difference. And it's actually funny that you would even, like, ask that question, because one of the things that I thought of when we first started talking or when I first read your blog, I guess, and the topic of things is the impact that gratitude has on your relationships, which you've already touched on a few times in this podcast. But the dynamic that that creates between you and another person when you express gratitude for them versus honing in constantly on their shortcomings and the impact that that can have not only on your relationship, but on that person is very, very powerful. So I would say that would be the key thing when I'm working with, like, kids who've been through. And I'm sure that you could speak to this a lot with like, the trauma informed people that you're working with too. But for our students, that is, I think, the biggest tool that we have is expressing positives and thankfulness and gratitude for any little thing that we can think of, because a lot of times they're starved of that. And that is also a lot of the cause of the issues that we see come up. So.
Yeah. And you're showing them how to be grateful and what it looks like.
Yeah, it's modeling. The modeling is the biggest piece of that. And so, like, we can only teach people so much through just telling them what to do. But when we model that for them, especially young kids who are like little sponges, it's super powerful.
Super powerful.
So maybe that's why it's tough for people who are really going through a tough time to find things to be grateful for is because they weren't, it wasn't modeled to them that those little things are.
Right.
That those little things are something to be thankful for. It's like, "oh, you put that away. That's a good job."
Right. Exactly.
"I'm grateful that you did that small act." And so, yeah. Being able to model to people like, what gratitude is. Yeah. Really important.
I think it maybe reflects on, like, sometimes you see me with my dog, and you think it's ridiculous.
Sometimes?
Every time I praise Mabel in front of Jon, he's like, "what is she even doing?"
She's just sitting there.
She's breathing. She's just breathing.
And my response was, "well, she's not trying to eat your food, so."
That's a stretch.
And. Was it?
Says the non-dog owner.
Right? Yeah.
Well, that's interesting that. Yeah. In that setting, the educator would express gratefulness towards the student, and that becomes a motivating or positive reinforcement, I guess, type of a thing. Same thing in coaching? Same thing in motivating people to, or counseling, to, to continue in certain acts or progress. It seems so backwards in a sense that the educator or the person doing the counseling thanks the student for progress.
But I mean, that is a, highly motivating. Right? It is motivating to hear the words, "thank you." If you hear the words, "thank you," that's very motivating. And so, it seems like while it seems like the student should be thanking the counselor or the educator.
Yeah, it would be nice, but.
Or the coach. That would be nice. But I mean, it probably starts from the, the other direction. Right?
Right. And it's not like a means to an end where it's like. Like we're saying it so that they'll be enacted this sense of like, "oh. I'm doing a good job." Like, no, it's like, I can just speak for myself.
If they'd only say, "thanks, doc." Last time I heard, if I get. If I got a dime for every time they said, "thanks, doc," I could.
Well, well. And so, it's, yeah, it's. It's not just saying it for saying it's sake, because I think I can speak for myself. I'm sure Kathy would agree that we see how difficult it is for some people to do certain things. And it's like, that is actually really impressive. And legitimately, I'll say this with, like, all honesty, it's. It's. Other people may not see, like, what an effort that was for you to do that this week, but if no one else sees it, that's. That's hats off to you because that was, that was really either brave, it was really strong of you, it was really kind of you. And then just. Yeah, basically just mirroring back what they're doing and saying, "no, this is something that's really good." Like, "you're actually doing a really good job." Yeah.
And piggybacking off of that. You know, as a trauma therapist, one of the things I always look for when I'm doing trauma processing is what were those points of light along somebody's journey? And I can't even tell you how often it's a teacher that anchored that person into completely giving up on life. Because there was one person who saw them, one person who saw good in them. And I wish I could tell you how powerful that is in some of my clients. And then I think of Jon is probably the happiest, most positive person I've ever had the privilege of working with. And there are times, yes, you Jon. Sometimes where I'll see.
You're not even getting paid for this.
One of the clients that can't even lift their head, you know, walking into his office, and I am thankful to the Lord that for 50 to 60 minutes they get to interface with somebody who's going to reflect back to them goodness and worth and value, and it's absolutely powerful.
Well, thank you.
That's great. Anything in regard to coaching, where perhaps some of your clients are, if they hear the thanks, I suppose, do they find it motivating or is it helpful to help identify more people that?
I can definitely relate a lot to what Chris and Kathy were talking about. Because oftentimes I have clients, like I, you know, I check in with them, how did the last couple weeks go? And they'll kind of frame it a certain way and I'll frame it a different way and say, wow. But like, what I see is you. Yeah. Like really kind of highlighting those things that they did do. And one of my favorite quotes is like, we celebrate progress, not perfection. Right? And I also do beliefs training and working with clients to help them, you know, really go after those beliefs. And we do those check in points as well. And we'll check in and we'll say, where is the evidence? Like, where are you starting to see forward momentum of movement? Right? And the person who trained me said, you're looking for the breadcrumbs. You're helping them find the breadcrumbs because that'll always lead to the bread. And so, I really love that analogy as well.
That's good. Yeah.
The little things lead to the big things.
Absolutely.
My heart is filling just sitting here.
Well, any closing thoughts then? Are we ready for closing thoughts?
Sure.
Are there any midway thoughts that didn't get expressed yet that you wanted to jump in and share before we move on to closing thoughts?
It might not make the cut but here's a couple of jokes about thanks.
Thanks for giving us a heads up it's a joke.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For those of you who don't get humor.
Wait a minute, let me get the laugh track ready. Just a second.
This is a joke. Everybody, it's a joke.
It's not a good joke. Neither. None of these are really good.
Why did the cranberry turn red?
Saw the turkey dressing.
If April showers bring May flowers, what do May flowers bring?
Pilgrims.
What did one juvenile troublemaker turkey say to the other juvenile troublemaker turkey?
Let's get basted.
I'm in distress.
I, I'm surprised you just said that one.
Oh, you should hear some of the things.
And what do you call a sad cranberry?
A blueberry.
Love a good blueberry.
That one was good.
They're all pretty bad.
May have been the only one that was good, but that was good.
A blueberry.
I'm laughing on the inside.
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, man.
Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of thanks, gratefulness.
Yeah, I think, Yeah, I think that if there's something I would just encourage any listeners or watchers to practice or just try out is try to write down three things you're grateful for every single day. And then put those into a jar and just keep filling up the jar. Even from a visual standpoint, you'll see the jar on the counter and you will see that thing is full of good things. And if you need to, you can dip into it and you can pull one out and you can remember what good thing that was. And then I would encourage everybody to wake up every single day and train your brain to be grateful first thing in the morning. It's like a shotgun of gratitude, where it's just, how many things can you name in 30 seconds. When you can bookend gratitude, I do think that that is something that is, it's, it's so powerful. It's probably just below exercise when it comes to depression, because research shows that exercise, like the number one treatment for depression. And it's even more powerful, research shows, than medication or talk therapy. So, if you can do exercise regularly and practice gratitude daily.
Dogs are also on that list.
They're not.
Actually, Jon.
Some are. Some dogs are. Yeah, I think that that is, that is a good, a good recipe to just try out and just see, see how it goes.
Good.
Yeah. When I was earlier this year, when I was praying over this year and what I felt like the Lord wanted to speak to me on, I heard him say that this is a season of resting, not in defeat, but in his love and his faithfulness. And that just brings me to my closing thought, which is that I think so much of what enables us to look forward with joyful anticipation is trusting in the character of God and His goodness. One of my mentors, Steve Backlund, says that hope is the safety net for when the thing that we have faith for doesn't happen.
And so, because our hope is grounded in the character of God. So, for example, I have, I have faith I'm going to get married someday. But the hope says that I'm going to have an abundant life anyways. And so just wanted to remind us that the goodness and the character of God and how he's unchanging and immutable is really how we can continue to look at life with hope and grateful anticipation.
That's good.
And I guess for me, I want to leave with just pure economics. And one of the things I do with my clients is remind them that, you know, we don't really have control over the thoughts that hit us. It's part of the programming. But we do have control over where we're going to camp. And so just notice when you're thinking about that thing, that negative thing that happened or that fearful thing that you think will happen, just notice the emotions that come up and then if you were to camp there, you know, pitch the tent, set up the camp chairs, light the fire, and whip out the s'mores, what path would that take you down?
And instead, notice, you know, as you practice gratitude, as you shift your focus to one aspect of life or the situation that you can feel good about, just notice what emotions come with that and what are the choices that you know are born of that and what is helpful and what's not helpful. So, I want to leave you with that.
That's good.
I am also one of those people. I wake up every morning and I am a bed person. So, I love to tell the Lord how grateful I am for my bed. And then it turns into my apartment, and then it turns into that I got to sleep through the night, and I was in the most vulnerable position you can possibly be in, and no harm came to me. And before I know it, what I actually find is that I, like, feel the strong presence of the Lord. And I was kind of ruminating on that the other. Ruminating is probably not the word. I was thinking about it, and then I remembered there's a scripture that says, enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise. Give thanks to him and bless his name. And it just. It really occurred to me that is like.
I mean, that's a recipe for. If you're curious about getting into the presence of the Lord or if you're feeling distant from the Lord, one, like, very practical thing you can do is literally just to start to thank him. And I think sometimes as believers we'll be praying for one another, and we often start off. It's almost like, redundant. Thank you, Lord, for this, and thank you for this person. And thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. But it really does kind of prep your spirit, I guess, to be in the inner courts of the Lord in what you discover there. It's like you were saying, it's less. It's. It is a spiritual experience to become a grateful and thanksgiving person, I guess. So, I guess that's my closing thought.
Okay, good.
Good.
Yeah. That kind of ties in with this verse that I have here. Psalm 92, verses 1 through 2. This is out of The Living Bible. It says,
"It is good to say thank you to the Lord, to sing praises to the God who is above all gods. Every morning tell him, 'Thank you for your kindness,' and every evening rejoice in all his faithfulness."
And I think that word in the Hebrew there, if I. If I'm understanding it right, the saying thanks, it's like it could also mean to cast forth or to cast out is like starting here, but then sending it out. Like saying something, not just, you know, internalizing it completely, but saying thank you. Kind of like you were saying, let it out, express it, let it be heard, say thank you to God, to the Lord, and it's a good thing. You know, it's, find something. And you know, really when you think about it, there's no shortage of things to be thankful for to God, you know, as the creator of all that is good.
You know, there's a long list when you really, when you really think about it.
So anyway, that's kind of the encouragement there is to actually verbalize it.
And if you make it a practice every morning, like it says there in the psalm, I think you'd really find a positive change there in living what the Word actually says there. So.
All right, well, great discussion. Thank you everyone for joining us here for another episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al.
We look forward to another episode soon. Thank you.
Take care everybody.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com.
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