Episode Transcript
Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon, et al., a Bible study in which panelists from a variety of backgrounds, including coaching, education, management, ministry, and psychology seek hope and truth in what some would call austere times.
Psychologist and author Dr. Jon Troll is your host. I'm co-host Chris today. We're joined once again with Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson, Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate Rogelio Navarro. And for the first time in the studio, Maxine Toh, Christian Life Coach. Welcome.
Thank you so much.
Maxine, can you tell us a little more about your profession and your coaching and your business?
Absolutely. Yeah. So, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here today. So, yes, I'm a Christian Life Coach. I help Spirit-filled Christian women pursue their God dreams with clarity, confidence and momentum. Really passionate about helping people overcome limiting mindsets and really understand any core lies that are holding them back from really advancing the kingdom and pursuing God. So, I'm excited to be here. I also have a background in corporate work and ministry school, as well as I've launched a couple businesses. So, a couple different things, but mostly coming from the perspective of a life coach today.
Okay. Very cool. Awesome.
Sure.
Excellent.
Well, we are continuing our conversation on the topic of "who," as found in the book of John, and just additional thoughts on identity and what that means to be found in Christ and what that means for our lives. So additional thoughts around the table. Opening thoughts, Dr. Jon.
Yeah, so with the vlog, there's that large portion again about labels and titles. And I was at Woods the other day, and I was doing some work there. I'm a Woods man now.
Woods coffee.
Yeah. Woods coffee. Woods coffee.
I didn't know that.
Yeah. Yeah. And I made the switch. And so, I was walking out and I see this car with a bumper sticker, and the bumper sticker says student driver. And it struck me as kind of odd because a bumper sticker is pretty permanent. And to have a label that says student driver on it, it's like, well, how long does that person decide going to have that sticker on there for? And so, it kind of just got me thinking again about the labels and the titles that we put on ourselves and just kind of taking that, you know, that situation out a little bit further.
You know, if this person in all reality was driving for 20 years and they still have the identity of a student driver, I know that's ridiculous, but just kind of going on with that for a second, there's a list of Socratic questions that we can ask that can help us determine whether or not something is true or false. And so, it's more of a psychological tool. Obviously, spiritually speaking, we get our identity from Christ and through Christ. But then from a psychological standpoint, we can ask ourselves, okay, what are some of these, what are some questions that we can ask to see if something is true or not? So, using that, if someone was driving for 20 years, am I a student driver? Right?
Not true.
It's not true.
It's not true.
It's not true. You're not a student driver anymore.
But you can get this list from the website, TherapistAid.com, which I think is a great little handy website to go to. A lot of their tools are self-explanatory a little bit, but, like, the thought to be questioned, right? I'm a student driver. Okay, well, what's the evidence for this thought? Was the evidence against it? Am I basing this thought on fact or on feeling? Is this thought black and white when reality is more complicated? Could I be misinterpreting the evidence? Am I making any assumptions? And so, there's just a list of logical questions we can ask. Again, from a psychological standpoint, is this identity, this title, this label I put on myself, is it actually true or not?
Excellent.
All right, opening thoughts around the table, Maxine.
Yeah, for sure. I really love this topic and the importance of understanding yourself and your identity. And there's a quote that came up for me from one of my mentors, Steve Backlund. He says, "You can't consistently do what you don't believe you are." And so, when I have clients that come to me, oftentimes they think they're not able to accomplish something because they're just not motivated enough. Like, they just, you know, they just need more discipline. But so often it really comes down to their beliefs about who they are or what they can do or can't do or who God is. And so, it reminded me of the cognitive triangle, which I'm sure you could probably explain better, but it's basically a cornerstone of cognitive behavioral therapy about the interconnectedness between our thoughts, our feelings, and our behaviors, and how our thoughts influence our feelings, our feelings influence our behaviors, and our behaviors reinforce our thoughts. So, it's just a really helpful concept that I use sometimes to talk to clients to help them understand. Like, before we go after why you can or can't do something, let's actually go back to those limiting beliefs that you first had about yourself. And those are some really great questions. I agree on just helping someone to dismantle those thoughts and have a better framework of who they are.
That's great. Very good. All right.
Yeah, yeah. With identity, I do see the need that we have as human beings to act in consistency with our identity. So, if I say, like, I am a bad person, then I'm going to do bad things, because it just kind of lines up. And so, I think it is really important, of course, that we are a work in progress, and it's really important for us to go deeper into our true identity, which really involves stripping away a lot of layers of, like, distortion. And I think just learning more about who we really are and who we are each created to be.
I know it's a lifelong process, too.
I wouldn't want it to sound like I'm a finished piece of work. I know who I am, and there's nothing more to discover. But I do think there's a basic, essential part of our identity that happens when you put on Christ, as the word says.
And one of the scripture verses that stuck with me around identity is Romans 8:17, which says, "Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory" (NIV).
So, to share in Christ, to put on Christ, is to put on our true identity. And it's easy to say that, there's a lot there, but I think just at least striving, not striving, but maybe releasing a lot of my own pretenses, or at least that's the intent, to release the "who I think I am" or "who I should be" or like.
And actually just, I think being humble is a challenge. Like, it's a struggle. It's a struggle for me, it's a struggle for all of us, I imagine. But I think wanting to go deeper into what our true identity is, is just so important. Letting go of falsehoods and illusions. And that means stepping in closer with Christ.
Kind of off, the two things that you said, one with the student driver, and you were mentioning, like, those mindsets that we have, and then we follow those mindsets, and we need to change our mindsets in order to change who we are. And the student driver, for someone who's been driving for 20 years, kind of reminded me of working at Starbucks. And, like, if someone would make a mistake and the customer was angry enough, we might just say, "oh, they're just new," even if they've been there 20 years.
That's funny.
And the thought really, like, I know it's funny, but the thought is, like, there's a lot of, there's, like, less expectation on someone who's new. And if that is, like, I guess, how you choose to identify as, like, I'm a student driver, I mean, you might hop in my car and wonder if Robyn is, in fact, a student driver, because she mentioned that time that she drove her car into a ditch and, you know, but there's a lot of grace for someone who's new and learning. But if we are a certain, I don't know, way down the path in whatever endeavor we're seeking to do, then you feel like you should have learned by now. Like you're saying, like, humility is hard. Like, it's hard to admit to ourselves, "this is who I am" versus "this is what I've done," I guess, sort of thing. And so those are thoughts that are coming to my mind with that is like, there is almost certain kind of, like, comfort, I guess, in just like, "I'm just learning" versus, "I should maybe have a handle on this by now," whatever that behavior is or whatever that, like, mindset is. I guess, so.
Yeah. More responsibility. I mean, once you recognize that you are responsible for more. I mean, if that person is purposely having that bumper sticker on their car just so they'd be like, "well, hey, I can do—"
Don't flip me off when I'm driving.
Yeah. But, yeah. And I suppose that we all are susceptible to perhaps doing that, where it's like, well, are we being ushered into something a little more deep? Are we actually responsible for more than we're claiming that we are? I mean. I mean, was it, Paul that said, when I was a child, I thought like a child? But now that we're no longer children, where do we go with that?
Yeah. I had actually prepared the same verses you did, Ro. There in Romans, chapter 8. So, I think that's interesting, that part of identity. And before I get to that, I'll just kind of actually read a different verse here in Ephesians chapter 2, in verse 10, it says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (ESV).
So, part of our identity is actually that we do good works. That's why God created us. That's part of the workmanship, his design for us.
And then in 1 Peter, chapter 2, verses 18-21, "Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps" (ESV).
And so, part of the identity is to do good works. Those good works can bring along suffering, as you mentioned in Romans there. But the suffering itself can be viewed as an excitement, in a sense, depending on your mindset. So just kind of tying a lot of things together. The thoughts can frame the emotions. If your thoughts have framed it as, like, an unjust thing, and this is terrible, that bad things are happening to me.
However, if it's framed in a sense that I'm identifying with Christ in this way, when these hardships come, then all those emotions get reframed as actually an excitement type thing. Like, this is an opportunity. This is a way to actually be closer, in a sense, in identifying with Jesus through identifying with him through the sufferings.
Yeah.
And the way that 1 Peter says it, it's not like, it says, servants, be subject to your masters. That's like Joe Schmo. Like, everybody. Like, day to day, you got jobs, you got. It's not like a missionary going into the belly of the beast, you know, endure this. Like, it could be, like everyday stuff, you know? So, it applies to, like, everybody.
Yeah. And it's like, don't. Don't like your main purpose in life, to strive for a comfortable, happy life. Because then when life goes sideways, it's like, well, my whole world's falling apart. But if we understand that suffering is a part of life, which it most definitely is, then when those times come, if we can even not just endure it, but then to actually embrace it, I'm gonna, I forget which branch of military might be Seals, but "embrace the suck." I mean, if we can really just take that and, like, own it, and when something bad happens, embrace the suck. I mean, if. If the bad times can't touch us, then nothing can.
Another thought is that in Hebrews 10:39, it says, "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls" (ESV). It's kind of like a call to endure. It's kind of like you can overcome these challenges. And I just wondered to what degree, like, even in coaching, like, people just need to hear some, like, an infusion of their identity. Like, you can do this.
Absolutely.
There's like a parallel to, like, actually physical training where you have an actual coach telling you "You're not gonna quit," or maybe on the football field or something like that. "Give me ten more pushups" or whatever it is.
Sports.
Sports.
But there's like, I think, a strong parallel just to life in general and the Christian life in particular, to where people can really benefit from being told that they are not quitters.
Right.
Or that you are actually destined to finish this race. So perhaps you can speak to how coaching and motivating others in that regard.
For sure. I mean, a couple of things come to mind from my own life. Just a quick story is, I remember a number of years ago, I was talking to a friend and just saying, wow, I feel kind of lonely in this season because I'm going after all these things, and it just feels like I don't have people around me that are going after the same things or whatnot. And he just said, well, it must be sometimes hard and lonely when you're a leader and when you're a pioneer. And in that moment, it completely just refrained my mindset to go, oh, okay. To your point, that actually gave me courage to keep going, to go, oh, okay. This is probably a little bit normal when you're pioneering something, to sometimes have to be the first one doing something and not having people necessarily alongside you. And so, I think that was a great encouragement.
Yeah. And we also talk about in Tony Stoltzfus is one of the people that has done a lot of the training for me in, like, your calling journey and your purpose. And there's just so much around helping people understand the context of the highs and lows of our values in life and how if you look at all the people in the Bible, too, you can map out their lives and see everyone has mountains and valleys, and, like, a valley of identity is one of the valleys that he talks about in his book, The Calling Journey. And so just really coming to a deeper understanding of yourself. And it's really in those seasons where you do the most internal work, and you really understand who you are. And a lot of your life purpose really comes out of who you are, not just the things that you're doing. And a lot of it does come out of your suffering. I know some of my deepest life messages come out of my hardest seasons in life, too. So, I 100% agree with that.
Yeah, I remember many years ago, I actually overheard, I thought I overheard a friend. Here's a little story here. I thought I overheard a friend talking about me behind my back negatively. And I was, like, walking around the house all, like, sad and, like, moody and just wanted her to know that I was mad, but didn't really want to tell her why because I have the tools to do that. And I remember she pulled me aside, and she was like, "Robyn, are you okay?" Like, I was like, "Wouldn't you like to know?"
I'm a different person now. But she's like, "You're just. You're just kind of moody."
She just named everything I just said, and then she was like, "It's just not like you. Like, that's not like you. So, I'm wondering if something is wrong." And I don't know if she, like, if she was doing that on purpose, but it was very, it was very tactful, and I loved it because it actually, in my head, I started to feel like, "Okay, this isn't actually who I am, and I'm not acting in consistence with who I am as a person." And I didn't feel at all attacked or shamed for the way that I was, even though it was really petty. But it's something that I have always, like, pocketed and take with me with any kind of friendship or relationship, but especially with the kids that I work with. I know that, like, I mean, a good 90% of what I do is just trying to change that, their internal thought dialogue about themselves, because a lot of them have been to, like, five or six different schools. They've been kicked out of schools. They throw chairs when they're mad. They hit people. They spit on everybody. They have a lot of these, like, negative behaviors, and they internalize these thoughts of, like, I'm a very bad kid and I am a bully, and I am mean and all these things. And so, when we start to really speak new identity over them and give them different tools and just, you know, like. And even if it's not 100% true at that time, we try and, like, really pull out the positive things that we're seeing in them. I mean, majority of the time, the behaviors start taking care of themselves because they've changed their thought process about themselves, and, "well, a leader in the school wouldn't act like that, so I'm not gonna do that." And, like, "someone who is a friend with another friend wouldn't do that, so I'm gonna not do that." But, you know, "Someone who has a best friend is gonna do this for their best friend." It's very powerful what identity can do, negative and positive. It's, you know.
I mean, kids or adolescents or even adults that don't have the belief that their identity is what Christ would say. Right? Or they're just like, "No, I'm worthless. I'm unlovable." You know, all those things.
Well, then, the ones that do know truth, it's like, well, if you can't do it for yourself, then let me do it for you. Like, you are created for greatness. You are fearfully and wonderfully made. And that's something that I'll tell, yeah, my kids that I have in sessions that are way more on, like, the I guess you could say, the trajectory of, like, not good behavior. And you can see it, you know, going down a rough path. It's like every time, I'll just end the session, like, "You're made for greatness, and so you know just that you know that." And you know, it's like, "Yeah, whatever," but it's like, but then, "If you don't believe it, I'm gonna keep on saying it until—", and then eventually they're like, "Yeah, I know what you're gonna say." Like, "Good. Good."
That reminds me of the scripture when Gideon was hiding in the wine vat, and the angel appeared and said something like, bless you, like, mighty warrior. And at the time, he was not. He didn't feel like a mighty warrior, but they called out who he was really inside, and it was almost this foretelling and foretelling and gave him the strength to go after that. I loved how you're applying that in real life. That's very good.
I also know that remembering who we are, sometimes it helps to have people, as you were saying earlier, like friends or family or whoever, kind of speak the truth about who we are. I mean, we do it for each other, and I think we do it in counseling as well. I think sometimes just hearing words as a reminder might be easier than, say, just hearing my thoughts or, I know, especially just having an episode of depression before. I know maybe the one thing that kept me alive through all of that was just remembering who I was.
Because it's also like. I think it also helps endure. Like, it helps you get through any storm if we have who we are and that's in the right place. Like, everything else can just hit you like a storm, but you'll still carry on, and you'll come out the other side of that. And I think that's part of the suffering. I think the suffering that kind of transforms pain or wounds. And even, as you were saying, Maxine, like, using personal wounds or personal story of, like, being hurt as a way to also, you know, love other people or to be a testimony or whatnot. But I think that maybe that makes the difference in times of suffering is if we can attach that to our identity in Christ, then it's kind of like hugging the cross or something, where it's like even the worst situation now has a meaning to it. It's a suffering with purpose, not just this empty suffering of just vast emptiness.
Yeah. And to have those people in our lives that will speak that truth over us. Absolutely. And in therapy in particular—but I imagine with coaching and in your line or with teaching—is that if someone comes up to us and they say, they say all the wrong things are going on in their life, like, life is really, really just falling apart, and the response is, "Yeah, you're fine." And it's like, it's like, that's like the worst thing you can really say to somebody because, like, "What do you mean, I'm okay?" Like, "I'm fine." Like, "No, I'm not okay." But then to have somebody say, "No, you're fine." It's like, "Well, what do I do with that?" And so, it's like, no, you're not okay. But here's how we can get okay.
There might be times when they need encouragement to keep at it, to continue in a way that will undoubtedly bring additional hardship. That can be a need for encouragement as well, because according to, like, these scriptures here, the hardship comes with the proactivity of doing something good. It's, like, unavoidable. But it's also the evidence that someone is making progress, basically doing something that matters for the kingdom, something that is answering the call that God wants them to do.
There's another type of hardship, is what I guess I'm trying to say is that the alternative is also to do nothing or to step down or step aside or reduce the amount of good that one is trying to do. Yeah.
And are you saying, like, suffering for righteousness' sake? Is that kind of the thought?
Basically, yeah. Yeah.
There's probably multiple ways of looking at what suffering is.
There's hardship, of course, that comes from life.
There's also hardship that comes from doing wrong. And that's why the verse says, to paraphrase, you get no points for getting a whooping when you deserve it, but
You got yours.
But if you were doing something good and it's not fair, there's actually a reward in that. Yeah.
Well, any closing thoughts on the topic of who and identity?
Yeah, I think I'll just go back to just the Socratic question list.
I know in the vlog it was just one particular question, like, who passed this thought or belief to you? And if so, you know, are they a reliable source? But just an encouragement. Don't just allow a harmful thought to steamroll you.
Challenge it, question it.
A lot of times, it's the emotion that it takes hold, and it's very emotional to think that I'm worthless or that no one loves me.
And to bring logic into that equation, I think is massively therapeutic and helpful to really just pump the brakes and ask, "Okay, is this actually true?"
A couple of additional questions is, am I looking at all the evidence or just what supports my thought? Could my thought be an exaggeration of what's actually true? Am I having this thought out of habit, or do the facts support it? And so, we can get in the habit of thinking a lot of things about ourselves, and if we can just take a little moment to really challenge those—and it can be difficult, for sure—but to do it, it can be really helpful.
Yeah. I think one other thing that just stood out to me in the scripture is when he says, you know, he identifies his identity, not just in terms of just, I'm a great guy or I'm a great speaker. It was in service to the Lord. And so, I think my exhortation is, when we think about our identity, how do we mainly see ourselves is to really understand how is that in relation to God. So maybe you're a mom, and that's like taking up 24/7 all of your time and energy, which is understandable. And maybe it's reframing and saying, you know, I'm a mother that's raising up kids that are going to change the world, or, you know, that's, this is my high call in life or whatnot. But similar to what Jon was saying as a coach, I think some of the questions that I would ask, again is, what is an identity word that the Lord is speaking over you that he really wants you to step into? And what is one thing that you could do to step into that, whether it's to meditate on it more, to put it on your wall, to have conversations, to search the Bible, to look for truth, to do this exercise or to step into it, start taking classes, whatever that is. If you're called to be a writer, like, really starting to step into that role and take opportunities as well. So just an encouragement to everyone as well.
Yeah. Yeah. And right along with that, I think you were speaking to me as whatever that one thing is. I think it can also be like living more in alignment, like, with my own values. I think that's one way that I'm feeling challenged, to just step deeper into that identity. And with identity, yeah, as far as, like, feelings being a part of that—as you were saying, Jon, as well—feelings, there can be highs and lows, but who we are, there's just something about, like, so. If God is who he is, right, and we are who he says we are, then the truth is we are perfectly loved.
We're enough, and we're loved. And I think that kind of like the scripture that you have tattooed, Robyn, the perfect love casts out all fear. And if we're perfectly loved by God, then that really kind of, I think it helps to take away those, the anxieties of, like, "I'm not good enough," or "I'm not loved," which is right, like, it's like a distortion of identity. Like a lot of adolescents or, well, you know, any of us can, if we forget who we are.
Right.
It's like the fear is. The fear is I'm not good enough and I won't be loved.
It's almost like the belief, "I'm unlovable," is, like, one of the most basic lies, because for God so loved the world, so every individual person, that he gave his only son to die for us. It's like that is the most basic lie, "you're not loved." It's like, what else does God and Jesus have to do to prove that you are?
Yeah, I found this scripture the other day. It's in John, but it's a little ahead. So, forgive me for being an overachiever, but, said no one ever about Robyn.
Identity!
Come on, little chief.
It's in. It's John 5:31, and it's Jesus saying, “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me" (ESV). And then he goes on to say, "If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true" (ESV). He said, "You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth" (ESV). And I think if even Jesus, like God sent John to be a witness about who he is, and then how much more so do we need that witness about who we are as well? I may be taking this a little bit out of context, but in my mind, it just is this thought of, like, God has, He has sent John to bear witness about who Jesus is and how much more so do we need that reminder. It's that humility piece that you were talking about, I think so that like Jesus is so humble that he's, he's asking like, this is confirmation of who I am, that God sent John to bear witness to other people about who he is, and not to say that John is the authority on who Jesus is so much as he's borne witness about it. And I think that we also need likewise have that community of people who confirm like truth over us and encourage us and spur us on in that way as well, if that made sense.
It did.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Be affirmed.
Well put.
Thank you. This is why I show up to these things. Not really.
Or community.
That's right.
An overachievement success.
All right, well, thank you for joining us once again for The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. We look forward to another episode soon. Thank you.
Take care, everybody.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to, like, share, subscribe, and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com.
Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
The ESV text may not be quoted in any publication made available to the public by a Creative Commons license. The ESV may not be translated in whole or in part into any other language.
Scriptures taken from the Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.™ Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved worldwide. www.zondervan.com
The “NIV” and “New International Version” are trademarks registered in the United States Patent and Trademark Office by Biblica, Inc.™
