Episode Transcript
Tests. No one likes them. Test results are typically consequential and are often black and white. As such, they carry with them a weight that most people prefer not to bear. Because, logically speaking, if we don't pass, we fail. But I've learned over the years that not all tests are created equal, and not all test administrators have the same grading criteria.
A few years back I took a test, not realizing that class was in session. I had just been hired as a therapist at a local clinic and needed to pick up a couple items to give my new office that certain je ne sais quoi. That's French for lamps, I think.
Now I've always been a little more HGTV than ESPN, so a quick run to Hobby Lobby wasn't the worst errand in the world. I was just a little pressed for time, so the stop couldn't take long. But thankfully, I knew exactly what I needed. Or so I thought.
I had just made my purchase of two distressed lamps, got $20 cash back, and was crossing the parking lot in the pouring rain when a voice called out from a few cars back.
"Hey, do you have some money so I can get something from 7-Eleven?"
The man looked to be in his late 20s, and he also looked like he was in the market for something a little stronger than a Slurpee.
"Shoot. Sorry."
My response was quick. Too quick. I knew it. He knew it. And the canned, pseudo sympathetic reply didn't help. You know the kind I'm talking about. The kind you give when you're unable to help a friend move because you have tickets to the home show or Seahawks game, depending on your persuasion.
"Shoot. Really wish I could."
Shrug.
"Sorry."
Which even that would have been almost okay had I not but two minutes earlier asked for $20 cash back at the checkout.
"Alright, thanks anyways," the man replied.
Now I could have blamed my response on a lot of things: I was in a hurry, the guy looked a little high, or due to the fact that we were standing in the middle of a heavy downpour, I could have gone the Milli Vanilli route and Blame It on the Rain. But to do so would have been intellectually dishonest, the worst of all the dishonests. And if I learned anything from Milli Vanilli, it's that dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise, can come back to bite you, back to bite you, back to bite you, back to—
As I sat in my Jeep, the test continued with a significantly shorter question,
"Really?"
Now, this question was of the still, small voice variety.
"What?" I replied as I removed my hood and started my engine.
"You don't have any money?"
"Okay, in my defense, not sure giving him money would have been the smartest thing to do."
"But did you listen to him?"
"Yeah, I heard him. He asked for money, which he'll probably use only for You knows what."
"But did you listen to him? What did he say?"
"He said, 'Can I have some money?'"
"What did he actually say?"
Then like a kid begrudgingly saying what he's sorry for, I answered, "'Do you have some money,'" initiate Eeyore-esque tone, "'so I can get something from 7-Eleven?'"
The still small voice continued,
"You didn't have to give him money. You know you could have just bought him food, right?"
Does God ever call you out the same way you would call someone else out? Sort of annoying.
"Yeah, okay, You're right. But he's probably long gone by now."
"He's not."
I turned off my engine and flipped on the hood of my raincoat.
"Yeah, I know."
It wasn't difficult to track the man down.
"Hey, you said you just wanted to get something from 7-Eleven?"
"Yeah."
"Here. Why don't I just put it on my card?"
Oh, like you'd use the cash that was in your pocket all along either.
"Okay, great. Thank you," the man said.
The 7-Eleven was across the parking lot, so we walked over together. He told me how long he's been on the streets, recent hardships, and the last time he had a meal. I told him about my lamps.
We entered the minimart and I told him I'd wait at the register. The man grabbed a chocolate milk and then went to the case of hot dogs.
"Hey, would it be alright if I grabbed a couple of these?" he asked.
"Yeah, sure thing."
He gave both hot dogs the works and brought them to the register. The cashier rang up the items and gave me the total. I slid my debit card out from my wallet.
"You're not planning to pay with that, are you?" the clerk asked.
"It crossed my mind."
"Cash only. Didn't you see the sign on the door?"
I've never been a fan of rhetorical questions, let alone two in a row.
"Must have missed it."
I thought for a second. Because it only takes a second to dig a deeper hole. Instead of outing myself by using the $20 I've had this whole time, why don't I just run back to Hobby Lobby, buy something small and pretend to get cash back?
I flipped on my hood.
"I'm going to get some cash. I'll be back in a second."
Now, to make the ruse authentic, I ran across the parking lot and back into the craft store. I grabbed a bag of Cheese Nips, jumped in line, and waited. And waited. Apparently, every creative thought and aspiration in the greater Seattle area was coming to fruition at that same moment. A vortex of dioramas, vision boards, and home makeovers were making landfall at the corner 100th and Evergreen, a veritable DIY nightmare. The line moved like rubber cement—aisle four, if you're curious—all the way to checkout.
"Just this for you?" the cashier asked.
"Yeah, thanks."
"Just stopped in for some Cheese Nips, huh?"
"Yeah, I really like craft store snacks."
"You know, there's a 7-Eleven just over there."
I took the receipt and crackers and flipped on my hood.
"You know, I think I'll head over there."
I ran back through the rain, across the parking lot and into the 7-Eleven.
"Where did he go?" I asked the cashier.
"He's gone."
I looked at the counter.
"What about the hot dogs?"
"I threw them out."
"Why?"
Yeah, I can do rhetorical questions, too. But before the clerk answered, the door beeped and the man entered the store.
"I didn't think you were coming back," he said to me.
"Yeah, sorry about that."
I handed him the Cheese Nips.
"That really took longer than it should have."
The man got another chocolate milk and reloaded two more hot dogs. I gave the cashier a $20, the same $20 that was in my wallet the entire time. And after taking my change, the man and I parted ways, but not before he let me pray for him.
As I walked back to my Jeep, it sunk in. That really did take longer than it should have. I wonder if any of Jesus' disciples ever felt the same, that in hindsight, the lesson took longer to learn than it should have. I imagine at least one of them did. In the sixth chapter of John, we're presented with one of Jesus' more memorable miracles, the Feeding of the 5,000. In the account, Jesus multiplies a young boy's lunch to feed thousands of hungry followers. But before Jesus turns his attention to the needs of thousands, he turned his attention to the needs of one, Philip.
John 6:1-7 reads,
"After this Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick. Jesus went up on the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples. Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, 'Where are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?' He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he would do. Philip answered him, 'Two hundred denarii worth of bread would not be enough for each of them to get a little.'"
The more I read the short exchange between Jesus and Philip, the more I love it. I can imagine Jesus was sitting between Philip and John on the hillside as thousands of people began filling the valley below. A few comments about the growing crowd were probably exchanged between them as they began assessing the situation. Now it's already clear that Jesus already knew the outcome. He knew what he would do, the text reads. And yet he asks Philip his opinion. Why?
English theologian Charles Ellicott explains,
"This gives us a glimpse into the educational method of the great Teacher. There is for Him no difficulty. He of Himself knows what He is about to do. But Philip had, we may think, been present at Cana of Galilee, and had seen the wine multiplied to supply the needs of all. Other signs had spoken to the eye, and a fuller teaching had spoken to the ear. How far had either spoken to the spirit? He had felt the Divine Presence in separate instances. Had he realised it as a law of life, holding for every need that could arise? The student has learnt individual facts, but has he laid hold of the principle which underlies them? The one is from without, and depends upon the teacher; the other is from within, and is the true education of the man himself. He has been taught; he is now to be examined."
This makes sense. It's obvious that an all-knowing, all-powerful God doesn't need help knowing what to do or how to do it. So, it's not for his benefit or need, it's for Philip's benefit, and ours. God doesn't need our help, but he wants to include us in his plans and work. But why test Philip at that moment? The book of Luke gives us some insight.
In Luke, the account of Jesus feeding the 5,000 begins this way,
"On their return the apostles told him all that they had done. And he took them and withdrew apart to a town called Bethsaida. When the crowds learned it, they followed him, and he welcomed them and spoke to them of the kingdom of God and cured those who had need of healing."
Now upon the return from what? Glad you asked. From being sent out two-by-two to heal the sick, cast out demons and proclaim the kingdom of God with these explicit instructions,
"'Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics.'"
So, Philip had just returned from a faith-laden mission, some say upwards of six months, one where he was to bring nothing but the clothes on his back and the sandals on his feet. No food, no money, nothing. I would argue that Philip had experienced the Divine Spirit as "a law of life, holding for every need that could arise," at least for six months.
It's like Jesus was asking upon his return, so what did you learn? Unfortunately, the miracles Philip experienced and the provisions he received was in short time a distant memory. By all accounts, it looks as though Philip failed this particular test. I know the feeling. And interestingly, it looks as though this isn't the last test that Philip came up a little bit short.
Later in the Book of John, Jesus and Philip have another exchange, highlighting once again their teacher-student relationship.
John 14:7-11 reads,
"'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.'
Philip said to him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.' Jesus said to him, 'Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.'"
In total, Philip is highlighted roughly four times in the Book of John, and half the times it looks as though he's failing tests. Thankfully for him, and us, as the saying goes, God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called. And while it looks as though Christ's teachings took a while to absorb, Philip eventually appears qualified, as we later see in Acts 8, where he heeds the voice of God to care for the needs of an Ethiopian official.
St. Augustine once said,
"What does love look like? It has the hands to help others. It has the feet to hasten to the poor and needy. It has eyes to see misery and want. It has the ears to hear the sighs and sorrows of men. That is what love looks like."
But without recognition of need, eyes to see, there will be no opportunity for hands to help, feet to hasten, ears to hear, or hot dogs to buy. If I were in Philip's sandals at the Feeding of the 5,000, I probably would have responded the same. I had a problem feeding just one person, let alone 5,000.
I'm so grateful God qualifies the called. An old Yiddish proverb states,
"Man plans, God laughs."
That day in the Hobby Lobby parking lot, I planned and God laughed. And not maliciously. He just had something much better in mind. Some of the best lessons I've learned have been taught outside the classroom. That day at 7-Eleven was no exception. Between buying my lamps and the impromptu Messianic masterclass, I walked away a little more enlightened: with a reminder of purpose—to love, and a change in perspective—to see. And all for the price of some minimart food. I feel fortunate. Such change can come at a much higher cost. Me, I paid next to nothing. I got change for a $20.
Okay.
Feeling good.
Feeling good. Well, that's good. That's an important part of putting together a good podcast—
Feelings.
—is your feelings.
I feel good.
I think our feelings are liars.
Mine aren't right now. Feeling good.
Okay.
No, you're wrong.
We look at facts in my office, not feelings.
My feelings and facts are lining up.
In alignment, that's great.
Feeling good.
Completely synced. Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. My name is Chris. Dr. Jon, Psychologist, is in the studio once again.
Howdy.
And we're joined with Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson, Licensed Mental Health Counselor Christina Konrad, and Educator and Former Missionary Josh Ferguson. Welcome back, everybody.
Thanks.
Thank you. Thank you.
Well, we are looking at the word "test" today as it appears in John chapter 6. And Jesus had a test for Philip just before he did the miracle of feeding the 5,000. So, I'll read that passage and then we'll go around the table for opening comments.
"After this Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick. Jesus went up on the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples. Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, 'Where are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?' He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he would do."
So, we're looking at the word "test." It came in the form of a question.
It did.
A one sentence question from Jesus to Philip. Go ahead with opening thoughts, Dr. Jon.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, before getting into a little bit more of the meat of it, I got a couple of test jokes. We'll see how they land. If I got 50 cents for every failed math exam, I'd have $6 and 30 cents.
Okay.
Okay.
Once I had completed my final exam, my professor told me to turn it in to one of the teaching assistants. Good thing I've been practicing my origami.
Wow.
Turn it in to.
Turn it into.
Oh, that's funny. It's funnier once you—
Explain it.
—once it sinks in a little bit.
A good joke shouldn't have to be explained.
You know, it's kind of a theme with me, though. So, settle in. It's kind of my, kind of my thing.
Kind of my thing.
It's kind of my thing. My shtick.
I tried to ace the exam on safely capturing butterflies, but I got a B instead.
Okay.
Good one.
Bee.
And finally—
It's good because I got it.
I messaged my ex the day before my exam. I asked her if she had any good tips on cheating.
Oh.
Wow.
Ouch.
Okay.
Once again, Dr. Jon keeps his day job.
If that were real, that actually would be a pretty nice burn. Taking a test. Got any tips on cheating?
That's right. But yes, I'll be sticking with the counseling for now. Stand up to come. All right, so opening thought. There is a part in the in the vlog where, it's a saying that I'm sure a lot of you have heard before, God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called. And I just love how Jesus takes a moment to talk to Philip about something. We don't know what it was exactly that Jesus saw in Philip that needed to be tested or he would benefit from being tested with. But I was kind of curious about other disciples in the Bible that Jesus also tested because certainly I do think that God tests us for our good, and I think it was for Philip's good. But I just thought that's kind of interesting.
So, Peter—Jesus taught Peter. This is just from AI. Jesus taught Peter the lesson of humility and grace. After Peter boasted that he would never abandon Jesus, Jesus predicted his upcoming denial in Matthew 26:31-35. Later, by the Sea of Galilee, Jesus offered Peter a restorative lesson in unconditional love, asking him to feed my sheep three times to counteract his three denials.
Thomas: Jesus directly addresses Thomas's need for tangible proof. The Thomas, after Thomas doubted the resurrection, Jesus did not condemn him. Instead, he personally appeared, inviting Thomas to touch his wounds and teaching him that faith can overcome doubt.
James and John: Jesus confronts the Sons of Thunder on their wrong motives and desire for earthly glory. When they aggressively requested the highest position of power in his kingdom, Jesus taught them true servant leadership, explaining that to be great, one must first be a servant of all.
Matthew: Jesus taught Matthew a profound lesson in redemption and inclusivity. By calling Matthew, a hated tax collector, directly from his booth, Jesus modeled that his ministry was not restricted by social judgments, demonstrating that the Gospel was for outcasts.
I just, I think it's cool that it's not just Philip that Jesus taught lessons to actually throughout the entire, all the Gospels. He probably taught something to every disciple that is actually throughout Scripture. And I'm just grateful that in that moment in the Hobby Lobby parking lot, I got to kind of join in with them in a lesson that was taught me. And I just think that we, I wonder if we look back, how many lessons could we say that actually, yeah, God was actually doing similar to us what he did for the disciples. And I think that he works the same way today as he did back then.
I think one of the first things that comes to mind for me is that, you know, I think we have the feeding of the 5,000 in each of the Gospels. But I didn't remember this element before I read back through it, that Jesus is testing Philip. And then it even clearly says Jesus already knew what he was going to do. And so, it starts producing those questions of like, well, why would Jesus test him if he already knew? But pretty quickly when we consider Jesus' character, we know, if Jesus already knows what's going to happen, it's for Philip's benefit. It's not to condemn him or make him feel bad. But it also is interesting to me that I wish that John wrote more details of the follow up. Like, we don't get that. And so, we're left to consider how that, well, the miracle that follows, how Philip responded to it. And I wonder, we can read it through our own lens of like, oh, he's probably like, oh, but he might have been like, bro, that's crazy. He might have been kind of a surfer dude. We don't know. But like, it could have been all sorts of different responses. I tend to think of it as like, oh, fail. But who knows? Obviously, Jesus knew his need and that was part of why the conversation happened. That's interesting.
Good. Yeah.
I also just did an AI search, which I'm new to, so we take this with a grain of salt, right? But I was like, I don't, I was like, I don't really like the word "test." And I think a lot of people assume a test is like a negative thing or I know a lot of people who believe, like, maybe God is not kind or is punishing or spiteful and so he puts us through hard things. And so, I was like, well, let's back it up and like, we really have to talk about what the character of God is and that he's not up there in heaven, like shooting tests at us because we're failing. Like, he allows us to go through things when we need to grow or when we need to be, something needs to be plucked out of us that's not actually for our benefit. But all of that is actually his kindness and provision for us, not like a test you're gonna fail kind of, like, thing. And the AI response was saying—and I didn't study to see if this is factual, but I think it sounds good. So, it says,
In the New Testament, the word used for test or trial, the words used for test or trial mean to prove by trial.
So, it's like going through trials or, like, when things aren't going our way, like, what are we supposed to be learning from that? It's not for, like, to punish us or to make us struggle. It's to help us grow.
Okay, Robyn.
My first thoughts are really similar to your guys' as far as, like, I've read this Scripture a million times, and I hadn't fully honed-in on the thought that Jesus was testing him. And it kind of, it almost made me just, like, visualize this thought of, like, the test didn't seem super—like, when I think of testing, I think of, like, really hard trials that I'm going through in life. But this just seemed like it doesn't make or break anything. It's just like, he's kind of gonna see how he's gonna respond. And I almost wonder if Jesus is just sitting there kind of giddy, like, ooh, where are we going to find some food? And knowing, like, what he's gonna do on, like, how he's gonna provide, that he has this miracle up his sleeve that's gonna change people's lives and ultimately point to him as the bread of life. You know? Like, that it was really to point to the bigger picture of something. So, the way that I think I saw this for the first time is that, like, this, it is testing Philip, but also that it just, like, shows this side of Jesus that I think, like, sometimes maybe when he's testing us, it's like this, like, I don't know, that he has something up his sleeve for us down the road. So.
Yeah, the test that Jesus did, it was like a one question, one sentence test. And it was, where are we going to buy bread? Right? And so, as I read that, I'm thinking he's asking him, the test is, what is the source going to be? What is the—to where are we going to obtain enough to help these people? And Philip, he kind of didn't really answer the where part of it. He went instead to how much it'll cost. It'll cost us 200 denarii, or a half year's wages—different translations say it that way. And so, part of the test, I think, is like, just who do you believe Jesus is? So, there's various reasons for tests. Some reasons could be, you know, for, is it for personal faith reasons? We can speculate that that was it. Or was it to prepare Philip to help others? But what if the main purpose of the test is just to reveal who Jesus is, reveal more of himself, and just to test if Philip was catching on to just the revelation of who Jesus is? And that kind of takes the sting out of it a little bit, doesn't it? The testing part of it? But it's very important. It's still very important. It's just, it's not determined on, like, doing something as much as it is, it's like, what do you believe? What do you say? And it makes it seem kind of easy, even though a lot of people are still hindered by coming to that realization. Any thoughts on the nature of the test and what he's actually testing?
It does seem like it was like a rhetorical question a bit, because it is interesting how he asked, where will we go to buy food? So, it was almost like a, it's almost like a leading question where it's like, well, where are we gonna buy food for all these people? And it's absurd because—and I think Philip's response was in line with what it, any one of us would have been, like, well, that's kind of nuts. What do mean buy the food? For starters, we don't even have probably that much money among all of us. And so, what do you mean to buy food for, like, all these people? And so, it seemed rhetorical. And so, maybe a little bit to what you were saying is kind of like—I don't know if Jesus would have been like, ooh, but—
Well, agree to disagree.
Surfer dude, I can catch on with. Ooh, not so much. No, but. But yeah. So, it's almost like it's impossible. You're not going to have enough money to feed all these people.
Yeah.
What's the next level to this? Think outside of the natural, the ordinary. So, yeah, I guess that's kind of my thought there.
You know any—
It makes me wonder, like, what would have been the right response? Like, he's like, he said this to test him, not like, you know, knowing what he was gonna do. So, if he says, where do we go to buy food? what is actually the response that would have been passing the test? I guess. You know?
Yeah.
That was just—
Right.
Like, not that there's only one response, but, like, it's really out there to go, well, actually, you're God, so why don't you just make it happen? You know?
Well, how many—sorry, go.
It kind of, it takes me back to, like, Ezekiel was asked a question, too, and it says, son of man, or, can these dry bones live? Right?
Right.
And his answer was, Lord, you know.
Yeah.
It's like, I don't know, you know. And that's almost like, more in line with a good response, I think, than—
Actually, oddly enough, yeah.
You know anywhere good to eat? And it's like, we're poor. What are you talking about? You know? We don't got enough money for food.
Right.
That's kind of like, I don't know.
Yeah. Sometimes I don't know is the best response.
Right.
Right.
I think, too, just like, I think Jesus is looking for us to turn to him first and say, I believe you can help me with this. Instead of worrying or thinking, like, how can I fix this? He's saying, turn to me, I want to help you.
That's a really good point. I don't think that God, like, in my personal walk with God, like, if God were like, well, where should we do this? I'd be like, well, you're the one that I would ask about it. You know? Like, what's up with that?
Right.
Why are you asking me? I don't know.
And yet he does want us to be part of the journey. And so, that could be part of it, I guess. But, yeah.
Well, because his mother, right? At the Wedding of Cana, she kind of took the initiative to actually say, go do whatever he says to provide the wine for the wedding. Right?
Right.
And so, in that case, it's like she, Mary, already—she wasn't even being tested, but she, like, knew what the answer to the challenge was. It's like—
That's true.
They run out of wine? Do whatever he tells you.
Right.
And Philip, he's not quite there yet, obviously.
Right.
He's being actually asked the question, you know, where are we going to buy food for all these people? Now, he, shouldn't he have known about the Wedding of Cana?
Well, that's a fair point.
But it's still a growing process, obviously.
Right.
And so, I think that, knowing that the Wedding in Cana was just a few chapters back, right?
Right. Yeah. And to that point, even just, like, a few days before, perhaps, they just got back from six months of doing ministry and seeing all sorts of things that they've never seen before and being capable of doing things that they've never done through Christ in the power that he gave them. And so, it is interesting that, that it's like, now there's another opportunity for a miracle to happen. And yet that wasn't at the forefront. The Wedding at Cana wasn't at the forefront. And what he had just experienced for like six months wasn't at the forefront. It was back to the natural.
That's a good point.
So, that's kind of interesting too.
Yeah, some little, like, context, like chapter 5 and then further in 6, like in chapter 5 or—talk into the mic—in chapter 5, Jesus, you know, and John writes it as prior to this event, you know, Jesus is saying things like,
"'whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life.'"
You know, saying that people who believe in him have passed from death to life, that the dead will hear his voice and they'll live. So, he's making these really I'm God statements. And he's being accused in chapter 18 by the other—or sorry, chapter 5, verse 18—by leaders saying they wanted to kill him because he was
"calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
He's saying that he's, at his voice, the resurrection is going to happen. And so, he's using this language that was probably surprising to the disciples, I would think, based on what seems like the expectations were maybe more of a ruler that's going to come in and save them from the Romans. So, Jesus is, I wouldn't even call it hints, but he's showing his divinity. And then after this, so, I wonder if part of why Jesus set this up for Philip and for all the disciples—I imagine they were all like, bro or something because they're all—
They were all surfers.
Yeah, they. The Sea of Galilee. Peter walked on water and stuff, so. It's like pretty epic. Dude. No more fun. But right after that, Jesus walks on water. And John doesn't record Peter surfing, basically, but. But Jesus goes on then to, I'm the bread of life. And so, here he's asking a question to Philip about how could we feed all these people? And I don't know. And they've got a little bit. And Jesus turns it into a lot. And so, he goes on to, you know, say to whoever's with him in the moment here, but, you know,
"'I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.'"
And so, he starts to refer to himself as the bread of life. And he compares himself to the manna that God provided in the wilderness. And so, this picture of like 5,000 plus people being fed by Jesus through a miracle, he's saying everybody can eat of me and have eternal life. And so, I think it's interesting that the physical version sets up just later in the chapter him saying, I'm the manna that came from heaven. I'm the bread of life.
That is the sermon illustration of all sermon illustrations.
It's like God-level multitasking. He's testing Philip as he's prepping to do a miracle which is symbolic of the manna in the Old Testament. It's his own body. He's—4D chess. It's like, not to reduce it to a game, but he's like got this all working at the same time.
Exactly. Better than Trump.
Well, I kind of went back in, was like looking at the order that Jesus called the different disciples in. And like, they were fishermen. So, I think they sound more like the guys from Deadliest Catch in my brain than a surfer, surfer dudes. But was Philip a fisherman? Like, what was Philip's background? Cuz, I didn't see, like, when he came in.
Thinking of The Chosen, he was sitting underneath the tree, right?
I mean—
Nathaniel was under the tree.
Oh, it's Nathaniel.
Yeah, it's his bro. It's his bro.
Anyway, I just was like, I was curious about his background, cuz—
That's a good point.
—for some of the disciples, like, it makes sense, the tests that Jesus has them do.
Right.
I don't know.
It was kind of catered to them—
Yeah.
—more so. Right.
And I was like, oh, that's kind of random.
It's a good idea.
It's just a weird thought, right?
Well, I do—
Should look it up.
I think he put this in one of the text messages, but that he's just from that region.
Yeah.
You know. Like, where do we, be like, if you're like, hey, Robyn, where can I find like the best coffee in Snohomish?
I'd be like, oh, well.
Yeah.
And I'm like, actually, you're Jesus. So.
Yeah.
It's just because he's familiar with the area? I'm not sure.
You know, a lot of the times when Jesus is ministering and teaching, he's got Old Testament precedent for what he's saying. And in this case, with turning the water to wine and multiplying the bread to feed the 5,000. If you look at Isaiah, chapter 55, starting in verse 1, it says,
"'Come, everyone who thirsts,
come to the waters;
and he who has no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price.
Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread,
and your labor for that which does not satisfy?
Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good,
and delight yourselves in rich food.'"
And so, that kind of sets up, you know, some precedent for this verbiage that he's using. He's talking about buying food for purposes of sustainment, sustenance, for living. Bread, wine—these are the very things that he's doing in miracles in the book of John. So, I think it's interesting how there's a prophetic word in Isaiah, and later on his disciples were like, wow, remember this? And they're making connections with what happened in the Old Testament and what they're seeing now. It's that kind of thing that even adds support for why he's doing what he's doing. It's like it was all spoken in advance in a lot of ways.
Yeah. And I think to the earlier points, like pointing people towards Jesus, like, this is like, this is what it's all about. It's what it's always been about. Yeah. Front. Yeah. Seeing him do it in real time.
Yeah. So, like, that verse even is like, kind of addresses his concern, Philip's concern. It's like, where are we going to, even, how much money it'll take? Well, Isaiah says, buy it without price. Right? Like for you, you don't have to work for it and, is kind of what I'm taking from that.
Yeah.
It doesn't require the labor of work to earn wages to purchase what you need to be sustained. Right?
Right.
Because isn't that kind of like the basic nature of why we work? We work for money, for food, to live, I mean—
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's, that's the grind, right?
It's pretty real.
Case of the Mondays, I guess. No, that's—
Yeah.
It really distills it down. Hopefully you get some enjoyment out of your work more than that, but.
I do.
But, I mean, in all reality, that's gotta, you gotta work to eat. Right?
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, yeah.
For finances.
That's right. Yeah. But the deeper level stuff too. And actually, with the, that kind of reminded me of the account in Acts 3. So, Acts 3:1-6, it says,
"Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. And a man lame from birth was being carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple that is called the Beautiful Gate to ask alms of those entering the temple. Seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, he asked to receive alms. And Peter directed his gaze at him, as did John, and said, 'Look at us.' And he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, 'I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!' And he took him by the right hand and raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong."
And so, like another thing, like he wants something physical, but what he needs isn't necessarily going to be found with money or gold, silver, but it was in the name of Jesus that he was made whole. And so, it's like, and it's like what we're looking for is we think we, we think we know what we want, but it's actually something deeper than that. And again, pointing the man towards Jesus. In the name of Jesus, get up and walk. Not money to help you slowly keep on getting by.
I'm starting to see the test in another light now that we're talking about the money more. And these verses and other parables of like of the talents or the, or the person who owed a lot of money and then found a servant, a fellow servant that owed a little bit of money and he would not forgive the lesser servant.
Right.
But the master had already forgiven the large amount. And you know, that's like, has to do with money again. And didn't Simon the Sorcerer want to buy—
The power.
—the power using money? And these verses like Isaiah, the verse like silver and gold, I do not have, but what I have, it, it's almost like part of the test, part of Philip's test had something to do with the money aspect of it. So, it's not only the source, to whom do we go? But what must be given in exchange to obtain the sustenance?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's part of the test too, isn't it?
I just had a brain wave.
Brag.
So—
One brainwave.
One, just one. But I mean it's a what if. But like what if Jesus was looking at Philip and like if Philip was over concerned with money and then he's like, okay, Philip, where are we going to buy food for all these people? I mean that'd be kind of an interesting lesson if that was part of it. Again, it's total, you know, I don't know if that was the case, but I just think it is interesting where Jesus adds the buy. Like where are we going to buy this from? As if it was kind of pointing a little bit at, hey, you think we can all buy things with money? Okay, where are you going to, how are you going to handle this with money?
Right.
Maybe.
Well, and then he starts to talk about, like, it isn't just, it isn't just the physical distribution of bread, but this is like pointing to a larger issue. But like a, I am the bread of life, so what you actually need, you're going to find in me. So even, I think it just points to that fact of even if you had all the money necessary, you can't buy, like, what I'm giving you with physical money. You know? Like, that's, I wonder if that's kind of what he was trying to point out there. Because, like, I wonder even—it might help if we read it in one of the other Gospels too, for more context—but I wonder if they would have even thought, like, it's like he, Jesus pointed it out. They, like, they're going there to listen to him and he's the one that points out, hey, everyone needs to eat. So, you know?
Well, what's interesting is this isn't in any of the other Gospels. It's only in John.
Really?
Yep.
The testing aspect?
The testing aspect.
That's what I thought. Yeah.
Yeah.
But the actual miracle is—
Oh, sure.
—in the other ones, right?
Yeah.
So, I wonder if there was more dialogue surrounding, like, how they got to that part.
It goes pretty much right to we have somebody who has, a boy that has a lunch is, I think, where that all jumps, kind of jumps to. Yeah.
I should have read that.
Well, hey.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
We all can't be Dr. Jon.
Why do you think John documented that little statement and none of the rest of the Gospels did?
Sticking it to Philip.
Some beef.
They had some beef?
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, just kind of in a general thought, what is some, what are some reasons for a test? Is it advancement, graduation, additional responsibility, to receive an endorsement, certification? That's what we use tests for, and—at least in America here. Generally, what is the purpose of a test? And was there a purpose for any of those things, perhaps for Philip?
Right.
Does additional responsibility, for example, come upon someone once they're tested? And, and what is the, what can go wrong with giving someone a promotion or an advancement or a endorsement if they have not passed that test?
Right.
I just went and got my driver's license renewed.
Congratulations.
Yeah, I had to do the eye exam thing again.
Oh, boy.
But, you know, so far, so good.
We good?
We're good.
Well, you drove here, so.
I passed the test.
Yep.
So, I'm on the road, you know? But what would happen if I didn't?
Yeah.
And you still drove, right?
Well, you know? Yeah.
Well, yeah. Danger.
There's a reason for the—
Liability.
There's a reason for the test. There's a reason for making sure that someone's prepared for what comes next. So.
You know, just, this is coming to me now as a teacher, but, like, I test my students to find out what they know and what they don't know. Like, what are their skills and where are they still lacking. It isn't always for like a certification or—I mean, I guess once they pass, then I know they can move on to, like, next level academics or whatnot. But sometimes, and I think in this context with Jesus, like, Jesus would have known what was going to happen, but Philip wouldn't have. Like, I don't know until God tests me, like, what I'm like, what my true character is or what I really think about something. It's like, it reveals something to me, I guess, of the nature of something that's already there or isn't there. You know? And I, but that's interesting that you're bringing up, like, advancement or achievement or whatnot. And if this were to bring something to surface that maybe would, you know—
Right.
—bring Philip to deeper levels of trust or like trust that he is God. I'm not sure, but.
Right. It seems like tests—probably more to it than just this—but covers two areas. One is personal growth and then the other one would be forwarding the mission. And so, it's, so, I can't think of anything more than that. There might be more. But personal growth and forwarding the mission. And so, Jesus, obviously, he invites us to forward his mission with him. And so, that could be part of what we're looking at is tests could be certainly to be able to help push forward the important message that Jesus wants us to preach and to spread, is the gospel.
Yeah.
And so that could be part of it.
Which is interesting that. Oh, go ahead.
Just. I was gonna say in James, talks about testing and trials. So, it's,
"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."
That's good.
So, it's like we go through these trials, or tests, if the word test is actually a trial, because it's what is meant to grow us to make our faith more complete.
Yeah, that's good.
I was thinking about like different types of assessments I'll give as a teacher. And so, there's formative assessments where you're assessing, it's not a high consequence, it's just for information either for yourself or for the student—in this case, like Philip, to learn about himself—and it shows you where instruction is still needed. Then the bigger deal, the like "test" test, is a summative test. It's like the summary or the, you know, the fulfillment of, see where are you really at. And I'm thinking in life, like these examples we see in the word of tests seem to largely point to people learning about God's provision. You know, Israelites are in the desert and they have to trust God to provide the manna and quail and just different things. How is Jesus going to provide for all these people? Yeah, he did. You know, whether it's something where we're tested with our finances or if we'll endure when the feelings aren't what we want them to be. It's, will God provide what we need or want eventually? And so, I was thinking of that as like our life will be full of these formative assessments that keep revealing to us our character and God's faithfulness. And ultimately, though, the summative test is like, did you stay faithful to the end? You know, we're encouraged in the Word over and over again to stay faithful to the end, endure to the end. And I think that, in my mind at least, that's how I would think of, like, the final assessment is, did you keep enduring, regardless of how all those other tests went, until the very end? And there's a verse right in that same context of James that I, I'll add in there, because that's such a good point. Unless you just read it, then that's awkward.
It's James, chapter 1.
Yeah. So, just later in the chapter there, in verse 12, it says,
"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial,"
and I think of that as just, like, one trial. But it says,
"for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him."
So, there's kind of that big picture—like the trial, being under trial—for the whole big picture, in the end, you'll receive that crown of life. And so, it's kind of that final test is in, at least how I would think of it, is just that enduring until the end.
I used to be a teacher as well, and I, when I gave tests, a history test or an English test or whatever, I'd be, I would, I had the blessing of teaching in Christian schools for a lot of my years of teaching. So, I would say, I would kind of give them the speech of, may the force be with you.
That's right.
And then I would say whether or not you pass this test does not keep you out of heaven. Because, like, it tells me what you've learned, but the real test is—
There you go.
—do you stay steadfast till the end?
Good.
Yeah. So, thinking of the biggest picture level of like, our life is the big test. And we've got Jesus in Matthew 16 asking Peter, or he brings up, Jesus brings up the idea of, like,
“'Who do people say that the Son of Man is?'”
referring to himself there. And they say, so, the disciples, like,
“'Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.' He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?'"
So, he asked the disciples this ultimate question of, who do you say I am? And Peter responds,
“'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'”
And Jesus goes on to affirm like, yes, you're blessed, you know, Simon, in knowing that. And so, I do think that for, well, I know, that for each of us and anybody listening, and ultimately, for everyone in the whole world, literally, that's kind of the biggest test question is, who do you say I am? Because our eternity is determined by Jesus and our faith in him or our lack thereof. So, I think that goes to the biggest picture test question and not to, not presenting that in like a fearful way, but the answer is, he is the Christ, the Son of the living God. He's, he is God. He's the Son of God. He's the Messiah. So, yeah, that's the big test question.
That's a big test question.
And it's a, it's like a standing question. It's like, written there in the Bible, it's like a question that we could answer, any one of us can answer that at any time. Right? You can say it. You can confess it. You can—
Right.
You can answer this question that is essentially asked in the Bible of you as, I believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Right.
I think in some ways, we're confronted with that question kind of all the time, especially during times of testing. You know?
Right.
Like, what do we really believe about God and how, like, because that's determining how we, how we live our lives, you know?
Yeah.
How we respond to situations or—
Well, yeah. If trials even come up in our own lives, as we're already believers, we might be subjected to, like, an additional test. Like, do you still believe that Jesus is able to do this? Do you still believe he's the source? Do you still believe he's who he says he is?
Yeah.
Right.
I think in some ways, as believers, like, Jesus would be, like, we would be confronted with that question probably more than anybody else because we kind of have to, you know, put our money where our mouth is, like.
It's probably a good question to ask ourselves, like, every once in a while, kind of like a little check in. Just like, so who do you say that I am today? I mean, kind of off to your point of when bad things happen, in particular. Because we're really good at saying, hey, Jesus is Lord when life is great.
Right.
It's usually the tough stuff that we start to be like, well, yeah, but. And it's like, but, you know, maybe every little once in a while, just ask, okay. Like, think of Jesus asking you personally, like, okay, today, who do you say that I am? Because that is, that is the, that's the biggest, like you're saying, that's the biggest test question there is.
Right.
Yeah.
So, here's a thought. What is good test prep? How do you remain in a place where you're ready to give that good response? Like I'll, I would think remaining in a Bible believing church and not neglecting to gather with people where you, you'll hear—because faith comes by hearing, right?
Right.
And hearing by the word of God. You'll hear the answer to that question, the answer to that test. And if you—I think repetition is a good part of being prepared.
Absolutely.
So that when that test comes Monday—case of the Mondays—you're kind of prepped with the answer, right?
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
What are some thoughts on test prep and how you can remain ready for that?
Well, in therapy anyways, like, I'll end up talking a lot of like existential type concerns, anxieties, fears and those types of things. And so, and I'm sure Christina does as well. And it's, one of the things that I keep on coming back to it seems in conversation, is like, don't wait until the bad thing happens to figure out where you are with your relationship with Christ. What is the test preparation? Well, it's when things are going relatively good or neutral that then you start digging in. Because you have to, you have to fortify the fort before the attack starts happening. Because if you start to fortify it while the cannonballs are coming through and the attack is happening, it's like, well, you're going to be, it will be a losing battle if you're trying to figure out what is, which end is up in the midst of fighting. And so, it is interesting when life is good and easy, how we can just put our, you know, take our foot off the gas and just coast a little bit. And then we get pissed at God when something bad happens. Like, well, you weren't really preparing for this because it will happen. Like there's going to be, something bad is going to happen just around the corner, potentially. And so, like, will you be prepared for that? And a lot of people aren't. And they shake their fist at God and say, well, why'd you do this? And like, God's like, well, why didn't you start preparing for bad stuff?
Yeah, it's kind of like, I mean, in the classroom especially because I teach special education. One thing that we teach a lot of is just coping skills, like how to deal when you are overwhelmed or frightened or whatever. A really bad time to teach coping skills is when they're already screaming and they're already like running out of the classroom and we're like, okay, let's access a coping skill. They're like, they're like blue in the face and you know, just like, it's just like the worst time is when they're, when the test is already happening, you know, so we try and pre teach and model and do all that. And I think like to your point, like, similarly the best time to really like hone-in and prepare is kind of like when things are good. Like get your, I think spiritual practices are much more than just like religiosity, but it is, it is your like training ground really for the battles that are coming.
Right.
Those spiritual practices being in a faith-filled church, surrounding yourself with people who also know the Lord and are seeking after him, reading your Word not because, because God will get mad at you if you don't, but because this is your weapon against, you know, spiritual warfare and girding yourself up in prayer. Like all of those things. It's not just so that you look really cool as a saint. It's, it is what you need to survive.
It's battle prep.
It is, yeah. And it's serious. So.
And it says in the Word that we are gonna face trials and we will be persecuted. Like it's not an if, it's when. So, you, yeah. You have to have a plan. How are you going to respond when things don't go the way you thought? And I go back to like, what do you believe about Jesus? Like, do you believe he is a good God who is allowing this to happen? Or is he like spiteful in making this happen to you? Like there's a different way of looking at that. And I think we have to believe that he's good and kind and loving. And so, if we are going through that trial, it is for our best.
Right.
Yeah. I was thinking of how, like I was a pretty good test taker as a student, at least in—
Showoff.
—you know, up through high school maybe. But sometimes I would end up cramming, you know, and that's not ideal. It's better to just have space, repetition. But I thought of how in Psalm 119:11 it says, you know,
"I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you."
And there's that idea of meditating on the Word, keeping it in there and in that sense more so for not sinning, like towards temptation, but within tests, you know, we can feel quite tempted to lose faith or whatever the mistake might be there. But studying for the test. Or cram if you have to. You feel that test coming, then get after it.
And I do think repetition, I just, in my own life, that's the thing that I try to do the most of, is, it's usually when I'm driving into work, it's just recounting like who God is in my life. Regardless how the day goes, it's like, okay, whatever happens today, you're still good, you're still God. And like, if that continues to happen every single day, well then when the bad thing does happen, it's not going to be a question. It's like, oh, no, God is good. God is great. I already know that. It's like set in stone in my mind. Whatever I'm dealing with, that's an emotion thing, that's a human thing, but it's not a God thing as far as like, is he good or not? But I think that repetition is one of the most important things that we can do. And that's like psychological, you know, basis there too.
I kind of talk about it with my clients, like, building that, you know, when we exercise and we get strong, like it gets easier to do. Right?
Right.
And so, same with how we think, like, we have to exercise those like pathways in our mind to go from, okay, this is hard and it sucks to I still believe you're good.
Right.
Like, like the more we practice that, the quicker that response time gets, right?
Right. Yeah. And for some listeners or watchers, if you, you might be tasked with first figuring out for yourself, is God good? And that might be more of a starting point and then investigating and researching and looking into the facts that are there that will lead you to, yes, God is good. But that might be more of a starting point for some of you, it's figure out, is God good or not? And if you're saying that he isn't, or you're questioning it, well, research it, look into it, because you'll find that he is. But you can't just have a mantra that it doesn't have anything behind it. You have to actually believe it.
And one thought on when this test happened, it was after miracles are being done. There's a momentum of good things happening. And that's when the test actually came. You know, it's like the unintended consequence of all these miracles is that there was a large gathering of people who were getting hungry. And it's like that's kind of a good problem to have. And yet that's when the test happened. So—
Right.
I think there's a caution there to not get frustrated or take it out on, take out frustration, get frustrated at the good things happening. Like, for example, if someone is involved in ministry and it's very successful and you're feeling a little bit of burnout or, you know, I just did VBS and now we got this, now everybody showed up the following Sunday. And that's a good problem to have. That's kind of the test, like.
Oh sure.
What's the alternatives? I wish we didn't have all these miracles? I wish all these people weren't getting healed? You know, it's like.
Sure.
It's a good problem to have. That can sometimes be the context in which we are tested. It's like, what's the source? Is it going to be, you know, you could kind of sense a little bit Philip's burnout. I'd have to work half a year to get enough money to pay for all the food for all these people that are following you now. You know?
Like, there's a stretching that can follow, like, even answers to prayer and seasons of miracles and whatnot. That, like, brings you to those, like, greater levels of testing and faith that you're talking about. Like, once you pass a subject in school, you usually move on to something next, you know? And I think a lot of times, like, if God sees, oh, she's been so faithful in this area, I think I can put an, like, put a little more pressure on and see what now she's capable of. That grows, that grows you. It's a good perspective.
Well, what are some examples today how the testing could come to us? Now, be mindful God already knows, and if we take this application here from the Book of John, God already knew what he was going to do. Jesus already knew how he was going to provide. But is there some application in our own lives where we could be tested? God knows how he's going to provide, but how could that question come? Does it come directly through Scripture or the Holy Spirit? Does a fellow believer challenge us? You know? Who are you going to trust? Who are you going to, have you brought it up in prayer? Is that how the test comes to us? Through the, a question from a friend or a family member encouraging us to consider where our source is? A stranger?
Could be a stranger.
At 7-Eleven.
At 7-Eleven. That's right. Because it, I mean, obviously, God can use whoever he wants.
Yeah.
And yeah, that particular test, that was one that's like, it, I wasn't expecting it, and I wasn't asking for it, and it wasn't something that I was prepared for, obviously, because I lied, like, five times throughout the entire thing. So, it's like. It's like, I guess that's kind of the fun thing, too, is like, screwed up so many times throughout the entire process of that until finally it, like, it resolved. And I think that that is how God approaches us and walks with us, is just like, nope, keep on going. Nope, that's not it. Nope. Kind of like just directing us back in line. And it was cool because I did get to pray with the guy afterwards, and nothing, I mean, as far as I could see, nothing came of it other than he got some food and got to say a quick prayer for him. But, yeah, that test definitely came in a package that I wasn't expecting or, yeah. It was good, though.
Yeah. It seems like for me, often the tests come less through a question, though it did in this context, just a circumstance, you know, some situation. And so, one of the biggest things recently for me that fit well with this context was, so, my youngest child, Claire, she's had pretty severe eczema for a couple years, plus some other things going on there where she, like, is rarely coming out of her room. Not because of, like, depression, just because of, she's so uncomfortable, like, getting dressed and coming out of the room is a big deal. And so, I wouldn't see her literally, for weeks, sometimes—days, sometimes weeks. Michelle was seeing her every day and helping her. And it's very personal stuff, but I think it's okay to share the generalities of it. But just probably two months ago, she was so uncomfortable at times that she's just crying, like, basically weeping. Like, I'm going to bed early because I get up early, and I hear her in her room down the hall, like, kind of wailing, like. And Michelle, my wife, can't do anything for her at that point. And so, it's just a weird, terrible, helpless feeling. And so, it's just kind of the weird prayers of like, Lord, you're good. This is terrible. Like, please fix it. Like, you could fix it. It kind of feels awkward to pray that way. So, I don't want to feel like I'm being disrespectful. But it's like, God, please. Like, I know you could just touch her and she'd be healed. And so, it's very tough. And I remember the next day or that weekend being at church on Sunday and we're singing songs. And I think I was just there without the family, but. And it's like, I can say these things, God. I don't feel them at all. And I'm just doing it out of kind of discipline or respect because I believe they're true. But I'm low and sad because this is terrible. Like, yes, you're still good, you're still great. But I, you know, like, it just, it was a weird disconnect of, like, that's true—and I've been through lessons in life where I've learned that, like, yeah, keep praising when you don't feel like it—this is just kind of a new level of, like, it's not me, it's my daughter. Right? And so, it felt pretty heavy. Fast forward about two months. Yesterday we did her belated birthday party with her closest friends at, you know, trampoline park in Everett there. And she's just been progressively improving over the last couple months. And so, we've been thanking God for that. And it just kind of culminated yesterday with, you know, trampolines: Hey, dad, you want to go in the obstacle course part of the bouncy house area? Like, let's do it. And it was so cute because when I've seen her, mostly until the last couple months, for the last year and a half or two, she seems, I don't know if she's like frail, but, like, she seems wounded and hurt and guarded. And so, to see her yesterday, like, pushing through the bouncy house things and jumping over stuff and climbing up the little, you know, ladder thing to go down the slide, it was pretty shocking. Like, that's normal kid stuff. But she hasn't been able to do normal kid stuff for a couple years. And so, I was thinking about tests and thinking, well, this has been one that's been really tough. And it's probably tougher on my wife because she's in there each day with Claire. And we had people come and visit our house and pray. And just, we've had lots of people praying, and we tried all sorts of medical things. And so, at some point, though, it has turned and now she's doing so much better, which is super exciting. And so, it's fun to be on what appears to be the very back end of this really long test that culminated, like, peaked in some of its severity just a couple months ago. And so, it was exciting to be preparing for this and thinking, like, it's nice to be on the testimony side of it instead of just the test side of it. And so, give God thanks for that. And it's exciting to see she's not only like, that her skin looks way better and almost totally better. She's like herself. She's not guarded and hurt. So, I get to see her joyful childlikeness and just her personality, which I didn't get to see the true side of that as much over a long season. So, it was a big test, especially for her. She's the little girl going through it. But it's just interesting from a parent take how awkward it is when she's struggling. We see examples of parents coming to Jesus in the Gospels, like, hey, help my son, help my daughter. And he did help. And so, I've got a current situation where Jesus has helped out. She's getting way better. So that's cool.
That's really good.
That's a good testimony. And I think that we didn't even really like, specifically talk about those long tests, too. Like you said, like, a very long season of testing. And this whole entire conversation I kept thinking about, like, moments of testing, I guess, like, where I'm, like, faced with a decision or whatnot. But it didn't even, like, we didn't even talk about, like, the Israelites being tested, like, in the wilderness, like, for forever. And all of their, you know, and all of their complaining and their constant failing tests thing, like, God provides, and the next day they forgot kind of thing. But, you know, like, there, there's a lot of, yeah, a lot of long tests of just God's faithfulness in our life. And are we believing it or not? You know? And a response to having to wait for something for a really long time when we know that God could in an instant just change our circumstances. And so, why doesn't he? You know?
Right. And there's probably Scripture that speaks to weariness. And I mean, I'm not coming up with any at the moment, but I'm sure some Psalms about, you know, crying out, like, why?
Yeah. And I think that—
"How long, O Lord?" Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And so, it's a true, it's obviously a true thing that we experience is weariness during long testing, for sure. And there's something to that also.
Yeah.
And what that is specifically it might be for each person individually and, but yeah, it's weariness and long testing. Yeah. That can be exhausting.
Yeah.
And I mean, I know some people just, even in my work in the past, like, chronic pain. I mean, that's a, I mean, it's not too dissimilar from having, you know, chronic eczema. It's like, it's constant and it's tiring and it's frustrating and all of those things, for sure. But, yeah, so we can get to God is still good through it and keep moving forward. Obviously, we want to keep growing through the difficulty.
I mean, for a long, I mean, for me, when I was younger, singleness was what I—
No.
But then you just get married and you switch singleness problems for married problems. So, you're just trading. Like, it's not really better, it's just different. I'm sorry, that's. But tomorrow is my 16th wedding anniversary.
No way.
Congratulations.
Matt, come on in.
I was just thinking, like, a test that I've been through, that was a test that didn't resolve how I had dreamed it would resolve, was my husband and I were not able to have children, and I was very devastated by that. And we did all the things that you're supposed to try to do, and some of them weren't really options for us for various reasons. So, it kind of just came to a dead end. And I was like, okay, I'm not, I guess I'm not going to be a mom. And that was really, really hard for me. And I was angry for a very long time. But I think that the resolution, the arc of that, for me, it didn't end up how I dreamed it would, but God really changed my heart about that. So, like, now 16 years into my marriage, and I look at lots of different things, and I'm, I can kind of see, like, what God was doing or why that didn't work out. And I still don't know the exact reasons, but I see possibilities. And my heart isn't, like, broken and destroyed about that like it was 10 years ago when we were really going through the thick of that. So.
Yeah.
Just an example.
When I think a testimony that, when something isn't, when a prayer isn't answered in the affirmative, I suppose, right? The testimony that you have, that people in your position have, to say, yep, this didn't happen how I prayed. And yet God is still good. I mean, that's crazy powerful because people are like, well, what do you mean he's still good? You didn't get what you wanted. And then you say, well, and here's all the reasons why he's still good.
Yeah, that's good.
Well, closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of test.
Yeah, well, I just love the fact that in the midst of everything that was going on, Jesus took the time to speak to Philip on a personal level. Whatever, for whatever reason that was specifically, it's just, it's kind of like we're talking before. Like, God is like the ultimate multitasker. He can do so many things all at once. And I'm just grateful that he taught me a lesson, and very personal. I mean, it's crazy that the God who created everything, the entire universe, cares to teach us a lesson, and that's just, it blows my mind.
Yeah. I'm just reminded as a final thought that it's so important to remember that God works out all things for the good of those who love him. That he's good and he's working things out for good. I want to read just a few verse, or a few lines from a song called "Remember" by Katie and Bryan Torwalt. It says,
"How quickly we forget the God
Who lives in every day
How easy to lose sight that You
Reside in the mundane
How quickly we forget the power
That's running through our veins
The kind of power that empties graves
And oh my soul
Remember who you're talking to
The only one who death bows to
That's the God who walks with you
And oh my soul
You know that if He did it then
He can do it all again
His power can still raise the dead
Don't tell me that He's finished yet"
Good.
Love that.
That's great.
I'm a big fan of songs as well. And Jon's story at the beginning just reminded me of a song from the 90s.
Nice.
You guys are probably too young for that, but I was a, I'm a big country music fan. I'm actually a very eclectic music fan. I have a very eclectic jukebox in my brain. But um—
Jukebox?
One of the songs is uh—
Yeah, that'll date ya.
Jukebox. Do you all know what that is?
Yeah. Yeah.
What's a jukebox?
So, there's a country music artist named Collin Raye, and he sang a song about what if Jesus came back like that. And, like, the verses are about a homeless person begging or a baby that's born hooked on crack. And it just really makes you think, like, no matter where you are, what you're doing, like, we're called to love whomever is in front of us in what, the best way we can and, like, really reflect Jesus, because Jesus died for that person too.
That's so good.
Yeah.
For my final thought, I feel like I have to switch it. Because when you asked the question about if anyone has like a test, a long test that they endured, I, something came to mind. I did not share it and I'm feeling very convicted about it, so. So, like a few years ago, I was dating this guy, and it was like an out of nowhere thing where, like, you immediately connect and he's your best friend immediately, and you think it's going somewhere. And he was a Christian and I'm a Christian. And my conviction obviously is that I would end up with someone who loves the Lord. And there was a while there where after a while I started to notice that while he is a Christian and I'm a Christian, there was a huge disconnect in where we were meeting in our relationship with the Lord. Like, it just was like, it started to feel like I couldn't like, fully, like, love the Lord like fully in front of him because he just doesn't get it. And it was just to sum it all up, what it ended up being—after some prayer and counsel and some very vivid prophetic dreams—that I could continue in a relationship with this guy or I can continue a relationship with the Lord, but I couldn't have both. And this was not an easy decision to come to because it's not like he was a bad guy. He was a very funny guy. He'd probably get along with everyone in here. And like, it was super fun. And I've always wanted to get married. I've always wanted to have kids. We were kind of in the same, going the same direction as that. But what it boiled down to was like, I could not have the closeness with the Lord that I wanted and be with this guy. So, in the end, I chose to cut it off with him. And this was not like, it's not like one of those things where you're like, good riddance. Like, you know? It's like literally like in tears about this. And like, now looking back, I'm like, the Lord saved me from something because he had a whole host of issues too. But, like, I think that that was a very testing moment for me. And the long test of it is that, I mean, it's probably like, I can't remember, like, four or five years ago. And usually when you hear testimonies like this, then girls get to say, and then a month later, I met the man of my dreams. And, you know, spoiler alert: I'm still not married. Like, and it's, but I, but the thing is, I got out of that relationship because I wanted intimacy with the Lord. And five years later, however long it is, like, I have never been closer to the Lord than I am now. And I know that had I stayed in that I wouldn't have what I have now with the Lord, and I wouldn't trade it for literally anything. Like, if this is how the rest of my life goes, this is it. But I'm not, I don't think that's the gift that God has for me, but. But I just felt like I needed to share that and say, like, sometimes, like the fruit of the test isn't what we think it's going to be, but it is always worth, like, the, like, the right choice. The problem is sometimes you don't know that it's a test at the time or you don't always know what the correct response is. But I think that if you are in a space where you can pause and ask the Lord, like, what's the right way to go? He's faithful to show you. And it's always worth, like, whatever, whatever directions God is leading you in, so. I don't remember what my other final thought was, so I hope that's. That's my final thought.
Good. Alright. That's perfect. Alright. Well, that wraps up this topic of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Thank you, panelists. Thank you, listeners. If you haven't already, please like and subscribe if you're so inclined.
Please be inclined.
We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care, everybody.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to, like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com.
