Episode Transcript
Jesus once said,
"'Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.'"
Years later, Ralph Waldo Emerson would pen a statement that would be just as divisive: "Life is a journey, not a destination."
And if you've ever traveled with friends or family, you understand the divide between journey/destination ideologies and its ability to set man against father, daughter against mother, and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. "'A person's enemies will be those of his own household,'" indeed. Because there are two kinds of people in this world: those who are all about the journey, and those who are all about the destination—a distinction that typically remains dormant outside one great American pastime: the road trip. If you're an along-for-the-ride kind of person, it's time to pick a side.
First, journey people. Journey people are vagabonds, drifters, hippies, the jobless nomads of our family and friends. They lead with their hearts more than their heads, so are easily distracted and swayed by the pull of novelty. As such, roadside attractions are impossible to avoid. These free spirits prefer open borders, so spontaneous side trips to Meteor Crater, Mystery Spot and Cadillac Ranch are always in play. Journey people's plans are typically last-minute, fluid, and day-to-day. They go where the wind leads them. If it feels right, do it kind of people.
Contrast this with destination people. Destination people are calculated, determined, orthodox, the proverbial stick stuck up an over-packed trunk. They think with their heads more than their hearts, so are not distracted or swayed by the pull of novelty. Roadside attractions are roadside distractions and are easily avoided, sometimes at all costs. A straight shot down Interstate 5 or across I-90 are the big, beautiful walls to their traditionalism. Their plans are long-standing, concrete and fixed. Wind plays no leadership role in their lives. If it is right, do it kind of people.
However, for all their differences, both the journey and destination people have this in common: the need for a map. Whether driving to a KOA campsite or the world's largest ball of yarn, eventually everyone needs to get to where they're going. Because without a map, we'll wander. And not even a pithy Tolkien quote will justify our aimless meanderings.
But in the fifth chapter of John, we're introduced to a third category of travelers, a strange group of people who are neither journey nor destination motivated. And they don't need to be, because they never journey farther than the driveway. They're map people. Pirates without purpose. They're all chart, and no booty. They sit in their stationary ships studying the route, imagining navigating channels and traversing oceans, believing that the treasure is in the searching rather than in the finding. No more important than any other markers, the X on the map is just another symbol. Because for map people, it's neither about the journey nor the destination, it's about the map. And if it weren't for the chart resting neatly in their laps, they'd be nothing more than idle navel gazers.
But 2,000 years ago, these people had a different name. Back then, these port dwellers, they were called Pharisees. Not long after the healing at the Pool of Bethesda, these religious leaders sought to kill Jesus because not only did he break the Sabbath, but he called God his Father, thereby making him equal with God. And Jesus was like, yeah, and? I'm the guy. You've been studying and reading about me for years. But just as I learned time and time again in high school algebra, studying does not equal understanding. Many Pharisees made a career out of studying Scripture yet never understood to what or to whom the reading pointed.
"'You search the Scriptures,'" Jesus says, "'because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.'"
It's like getting directions to the nearest Chick-fil-A and starving to death in the drive thru. But how is this possible? How could these Pharisees be so close and yet so far off course? J.C. Ryle writes that the answer is actually quite simple:
"They do not [truly] 'search the Scriptures.' They do not dig into that wondrous mine of wisdom and knowledge, and seek to become acquainted with its contents. Simple, regular reading of our Bibles is the grand secret of establishment in the faith. Ignorance of [all] the Scriptures is the root of all error."
And the Pharisees did a lot of erroring. Killing Jesus was a big one. But this isn't surprising really.
Proverbs 28:16 reads,
"A ruler who lacks understanding is a cruel oppressor,"
In a sense, they were just living up to the not-so-great expectations.
But the tragedy didn't lie so much in their ignorance as it did in their misunderstanding and ultimate rejection of truth—"'you refuse to come to me that you may have life.'"
Ryle explains,
The Old Testament Scriptures "show the important truth which too many are apt to overlook, that every part of our Bibles is meant to teach us about Christ. Christ is not merely in the Gospels and Epistles. Christ is to be found directly and indirectly in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. In the promises to Adam, Abraham, Moses, and David—in the types and emblems of the ceremonial law—in the predictions of Isaiah and the other prophets—Jesus, the Messiah, is everywhere to be found in the Old Testament."
The Pharisees had no excuse. More than anyone, they should have understood the map they held and to whom it pointed. They knew the law, the Psalms and the prophets. They knew the promises to Adam, Abraham, Moses and David. They knew the predictions of Isaiah. They even knew Greek, so they knew full well that X marked the spot. And yet they refused Christ. We must be careful not to do the same.
Romans 1:19-20 reads,
"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
Both journey and destination people would agree that there's nothing special, exciting, or particularly worthwhile about the map itself. Outside of that to which it points, it's nothing more than ink on a page. That to which the map points, is that which makes it worthwhile. And it's not an either/or, it's a both/and. It always was and always will be about finding and following Jesus—the destination, and the journey.
I have a pastor question for you.
Oh, great.
Start us off really well.
Okay.
In all of my years of going to church, I've never heard anyone use Scripture out of the Song of Solomon.
Use what?
A Scripture out of the Song of Solomon.
Oh yeah.
It's in the Bible.
It's awkward, yes.
You never, ever hear anything out of there.
That's for church at night.
It is for church at night.
Wow.
There's nothing in there that's pertaining to anything else but that? Like, nothing?
It's. I think it's one of the most awkward books to preach.
I think you should go through it verse-by-verse.
I think so.
You're literally trying to quote it, and people are looking at you like.
It's like where you avoid eye contact with everybody in the crowd? Yeah.
There's some gazelles, do not arouse—
Gazelles and meadows and all kinds of things. You're just like, oh, no.
Nature is going to be nature.
Wow.
They keep nature nature.
It's just a whole lot of heresy.
It's literal, they were real gazelles in the meadow, right?
Well welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. My name is Chris. Dr. Jon, psychologist and author, is in the studio once again.
Howdy.
And we're joined with special education teacher Robyn Nelson; Pastor of Life Church 425 and author of Discipleship?: Following Jesus in a Post-Christian Culture, Pastor James P. Beirne; and investor and from Reach Ministry, Mandy Michaels. Welcome, everybody.
Good to be here.
Thank you.
We are talking about the word "search" today. We're in John chapter 5, and our verses that we're looking at are verses 39 and 40. I'll go ahead and read that out of the ESV.
"'You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.'"
This is Jesus speaking what appears to be in response to, in response to the Pharisees. It says in verse 18,
"This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
And he goes on to say that the Scripture testifies about him, and yet they are ignoring what they have read all along. And so, he's saying they did not understand that the Old Testament was talking about him, so. We'll start with opening thoughts around the table and then we'll continue the discussion. Dr. Jon.
So, I was looking for, like, jokes that had to do with, like, search, but I couldn't really find any.
Oh, that's a joke.
That's good.
Oh, shoot.
Yeah.
Oh, shoot.
Did you not realize that?
That's funny.
I thought you were delivering that so perfect.
So, actually what I ended up doing was then I. Well, I should just stop with that.
It was so good. I really thought it was your joke.
That's awesome. That's pretty good.
That worked out quite nice.
That's pretty good. But what I was going to say is because I couldn't find anything—irony—I asked, again, AI to make a joke about The Defined Podcast to see what it would do.
Oh no. I should try that.
So, this time around, it says,
"How many members of The Defined Podcast does it take to change a light bulb?"
"Five. One to change it, and four to spend an hour defining what light truly means from a psychological and theological perspective."
Yes.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good. That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
And then another one I thought was pretty funny is,
"Why is the podcast break room always so quiet?"
"Because after hours of deep diving into Scripture, the panel needs to look into the definition of small talk."
Wow.
We don't do small talk. That's pretty good.
That is great.
Yeah.
That one's got a little more zing to it.
A little zing. That one hurt a little bit.
Yeah. I just had kind of a basic question that kept kind of going through my mind, is why would somebody be searching for something without, like, caring to know or finding the end of it? And I know I came up with a couple of thoughts as to maybe why people might do that. One, belief that the end can't be found, like, it cannot, it's unattainable. And so, this is a lifetime of we'll try, but we can never actually know. Another thought is just feeling good about the act of searching in itself. There's some type of a, I suppose, a virtue of trying and trying and trying and trying. And that could be like some type of a benefit of, well, what else can I do? I mean, I'm trying, so that's got to count for something. But then I was kind of thinking like, well, that's kind of like writing, like a dissertation and studying and like, writing it, writing it, but never turning it in. So, it's like, well, what's the point of that? But there's something to like, well, I'm doing something. And then the last one I kind of thought was for personal gain, which it seems like that that might fall more in line with the Pharisees. So, religion as an enterprise or for power, I just kind of jotted down here.
Pharisees made a living and a career as leaders overseeing the law, tithe and offerings.
Then I thought like, well, if the temple, if Jesus came also and said, the temple is now people, it was kind of like saying, well, I'm removing your job, your whole building away from where you're perhaps using it. And they were using it and as a, you know, den of thieves. And so, yeah, I just thought it was kind of interesting, like, why would somebody search and not care to find? And then one last little bit. In that Scripture itself, it says,
"'you refuse to come to me that you may have life.'"
I thought that part was interesting, "'you refuse,'" because that makes me think more like it was more nefarious, where it's, you do search, but you're refusing to come to me that you may have life. So, there was gain that they were probably scared to lose and they weren't sure what to do with not having perhaps the power afterwards. But yeah, just a couple of thoughts anyways.
I think God has a great sense of humor because this has been kind of what God's been doing with me lately, is really searching, you know, what is my looking for in Scripture? And am I finding him in it? Or am I just looking at Scripture? And recently I watched the documentary Messiah 2030, and it's literally about the day and the hour Jesus comes back and finding that. And we all know the verse: we don't know the day or the hour. And so, everyone keeps quoting that to me, that I talk to you about it. And yes, there's that verse, but what else does the Bible say? So, I've just been kind of looking inwardly at have I gotten so used to Scripture that I'm not willing to look beyond what I think it means and ask more questions and find Jesus in it.
Many thoughts. Number one, I, the first thing that comes to my mind is that every human being is searching. Every human being is searching for life. And the bigger question for me has always been, where are you searching and who are you leaning into? And so, when I look at this whole thing from afar, I think how amazing it is that first of all, I was able to find life in Jesus Christ when so many people are down all these different rabbit trails and they're searching to live longer, and they're searching to be healthier, and they're searching for affirmation and so many things. And of course, the reason I'm a pastor is because I believe if you find Christ, all of those questions are answered. Your identity's—the question of identity is answered, the question of future is answered, and it becomes searching of a different kind. It becomes searching for a deeper relationship rather than searching for something that just works temporarily and then you have to search again. So, that's my thoughts.
So, I kept thinking on, like, the tragedy of searching for something your whole life, and then it's in front, like, it's right in front of you and you never realize it. And so, I guess it's kind of the same route that you were taking, Jon. But I, like, my thought was, I think this happens in all of our lives to some degree, that we could spend so much time searching that perhaps we just, like, we get so used to the search, we really are no longer convinced that we're going to find what we're looking for, because we grow comfortable in the search. And so, it could be, that could be part of it. I also picked up on he said, "'you refuse.'" And to me, that spoke a little bit to possibly the Pharisees, like, the identity of being the searchers, I guess, the people who search the Scriptures, who know the Scriptures, and they're the ones that, because they're the searchers, they have, like, the authority of eternal life they think, and then Jesus comes up and he confronts that identity. And so, it's this like, if I'm wrong about what I've been doing my entire life. Like, how can I let that go if Jesus is in front of me saying, like, it's all for naught, basically. And I think that, not to like excuse that, but I just, I think it's actually really relatable when we're honest with ourselves that we have a tendency to the same thing, that Jesus confronts the reality of what we're like, placing our identity in or what we've built our life on. And when he stands in front of us, we often have to let something go in exchange for the life that he's offering us. So that was kind of a lot, a lot of the same things that you mentioned was what ended up in my notes. So, yeah.
It kind of seemed like the, what's the, was it sunk cost fallacy? Where it's like, I've gone so far, put so much effort into this and like, well, I can't, I can't say that was wrong. I'm going to double down and keep moving forward at this point because I've made a whole career out of it. And yeah, it kind of seemed like, and maybe there is, like, even like the Pharisees, maybe there were some that were very much like, no, we know what we're doing. We're retaining power and this is what we want to do. And others that probably just got, you know, sucked into the fold and like, well, this is what we do, is what I'm trained to do. And so, yeah, it's sunk cost fallacy, I think, is an interesting thought for those that are truly, were truly searching. But then it's like, well, I can't, I can't go back now.
Yeah, willingness to reevaluate what they thought they knew. Right? Because Jesus could have, those words of Jesus could have pierced through their preconceptions, even if they believed in error before, like, they didn't have the full revelation, as he is revealing himself, there's still a challenge to reevaluate what they thought they knew. And that's one of the hurdles is that a lifetime of thinking one way and then having to be like, wow, my whole life. I mean, the Apostle Paul, his whole life was knowing one way. And then it took a major revelation of Jesus to really break through that preconceived idea. So, what are some other obstacles that people might have in coming to faith in Jesus as savior? Because there's even those who are supposedly searching, they still might have some kind of resistance there. So, what are some obstacles that could be present?
I see a lot of hurt in people, and people blame God for that. I see a lot of people acting out of a place of whatever happened in their childhood or somebody that they loved, that they prayed for, that didn't get better. You know? Something to that effect. I think that—it may not be fair to use Stephen Hawking as an example—but, you know, he ended up where he was. And maybe he was angry at God for how he ended up that way, with a praying wife. And you can see why out of that he grew to a place where he wanted to bring people away from God, you know, because he, in that pain, decided God wasn't for him. I think that that's a lot. That's what I see a lot on the streets is people have an incredible amount of pain, and they don't see past that to Jesus being their savior instead of the one that instigated it.
Yeah.
I see a lot of spiritual people that would call themselves spiritual. The problem is they're spiritual without submission to Jesus. And I feel like that's one of Satan's greatest tools is knowledge. Like, people, they know Scripture, they know Jesus was a good person, they believe in a God. But at the end of the day, we have the sin nature inside of us that's saying, I don't want to submit. And just going back to what I said earlier, one of the beautiful things about Christ is: what would make any of us want to submit? And I know that goes into a lot of other areas of Scripture, but I mean, you think about that, just the beauty of God's grace over our lives that have allowed us to say, I give up, I submit. Where some people, they have all the head knowledge in the world, but they just, they miss Jesus Christ and they don't want to trust—going along with what you said—they don't want to trust somebody else with anything. They want total control over everything. Even though at the end of the day having total control over everything, that's not all it's cracked up to be anyway. I mean, releasing things to Christ is a beautiful thing.
Right.
And so, I see it. Lots of spirituality in the world and even lots of people who know everything there is to know about Christ except one thing. How to say really truthfully, I surrender all. I surrender everything to you. So.
Yeah, and the spirituality part, it's such a, it's one of those things where it's close but not. And that's one of the most trickiest thing, I think, because, like, well, I'm, I am a spiritual person. I believe in higher powers, entities. I believe in God, as I see him, or for some or her. And it's like that's, it's close. You're on the path, but you haven't actually found the treasure that you're actually searching for.
Yeah, yeah.
Like most stranger religions actually incorporate Jesus in some way, shape or form, and they believe in him in some degree, but never over the mark. Which is fascinating, you know, that they're looking to all these other things.
Yeah. I thought, I just, when I was reading this, another Scripture that had come to mind was in Jeremiah where it says—sorry. It's Jeremiah 29:13. And the Scriptures actually promise,
"'You will seek me and [you will] find me, when you seek me with all your heart.'"
And so, I just thought it was super ironic that these people are the searchers and they miss him. And so, I kind of looked up search and then heart, and then—I don't know if this is relevant really—but basically when it says to search with all your heart, it's a Hebrew word, leb, which is not merely an emotional center, but the very core of a person's being, which encompasses the mind—so, their intellect, which they had—but also their will, which is their choices and their emotions or affections. And so, I think it's this interesting idea of like, I mean, you guys are talking about like some spirituality, but not a whole self or like a commitment to the entire truth. And I think that when we kind of compartmentalize in our mind, like what we want God to look like, we can and we will miss him. But if we're searching for, like in all totalness, the actual truth of God, we have no choice but to find him. Like the Scripture promises that. So, I think there, it probably really is a heart posture thing in that. And things like offenses and past wounds do come into play. And they're all, I think they're all relevant. I think that God finds value in that and he can speak to that. But it does, it require like a full submission, which is heck scary. So, when you don't know God and you don't know how good he is, you know, that can be a challenging thought.
Yeah. And the thing that kind of came to my mind a little bit on what everybody kind of mentioned a little bit is the rich young ruler who was searching. And the last thing that Jesus told him to do was to give up the thing that was most important to him, so it seemed, anyway. The money was maybe the most important thing. And that could be another barrier, is Jesus wants everything. He doesn't want 90% of you, 99%. He wants all of you for the best reasons possible. Because in him, that's where we find fulfillment. And like the rich young ruler, that's something that he couldn't give up. And so, I think that that last barrier could be, what's the thing that's most important to you? What's the thing that, I'm going to hold this really, really tight because this is where I find my identity, this is where I find my value, my worth. And Jesus wants that too. Yes, he wants it all. Because if he doesn't have everything, then that one thing becomes god. And that then becomes the eternal stumbling block for you.
My pastor said it this week. If God asks you to do something and your first act is to think about what would get in your way, that's where you're putting your hope in. That's what you're putting your faith and your trust in before you're putting it in Jesus. And that's so true, isn't it? That we're stopping and thinking about what are the obstacles, or what are something that would stand in my way, something I want to do more?
Right. Yeah.
It's a little upside down when you think about it. You know, people can have so much success that they don't have a need for—I don't even know the word I'm searching for—but they have so much success they don't really have a need for Jesus. They're like, well, I haven't done anything horrible. Look at my life. I have all these things. Look at the achievements I've had in my life. And it takes me back to, really the book of James, where James is like, hey, count it all joy when the hard things come, because those are the things that are going to lead you to Jesus. And so, I see that a lot in the world today, especially in the US, our need to achieve and to climb the ladder. People are busy. They have everything they think that they need. And like the rich young ruler, how do you give that up when it's all that you know? It seems like in that position, maybe Jesus is a step down from all the success and all the achievement until life tragedy enters. And then you have no physical way of dealing with anything. It has to be spiritual. And that's when people find Christ is at the end of themselves and the end of their resources. So, I agree with James, of course, obviously, that when we have those hard things in our lives—I would imagine everyone around this table has had very hard things to deal with in their lives—and it's why we submitted to Jesus.
Right.
So, having everything isn't everything for sure. And it just brings me full circle with what we're talking about.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. One interesting thing is, to me, is that people can just be spiritual in general, but they can also be searching the Scriptures and their motivation can sometimes be a blockade. Like what are, what is the purpose for them searching the Scriptures, right? And if their motivation isn't completely aligned with the truth that Jesus is the Son of God, that can be an obstacle too, their very motivation. So, I'm thinking ahead to John chapter 6. He's going to multiply the food, right, and feed the 5,000. There's a range in which people can use the Scriptures to get what they want. And it can range from, we'll call it kind of an innocent thing here where like in John 6:26, Jesus will say,
"Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.'"
And then in John 6:31, they basically own up to that. They say, well,
"'Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, "He gave them bread from heaven to eat."'"
Got any food, Jesus?
I mean, they're using the Scripture for the motivation of: where's the food? Right? The physical food. In that, that's where they think they have life is in this food, right? In the bread. So that can be kind of like an innocent thing. That's just the way I hear it when I, when I read it. It sounds a little self-serving. Right?
Right.
The other extreme is in Matthew 4, chapter 4, starting in verse 5,
"Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, 'If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,
'"He will command his angels concerning you,"
and
'"On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone."'"
So, there's a range here. Either motivation of kind of self-serving, I think I have life in bread, and then the other extreme is using the Scripture, "'it is written,'" again, it says to try to get Jesus to prove himself as the Son of God. And so, that's where it gets a little bit kind of tricky is because people can actually be using the Scripture and supposedly searching the Scripture, but not really with the intent of finding Jesus. It's almost like prove yourself Jesus, prove that you're the Son of God. And I think that's an interesting take there, how you got to kind of be careful because there's lots of people, politicians, motivational speakers, influencers, some ministries might even use the Scripture. And you got to kind of ask, probably ask God for discernment to really and you know, confirmation to make sure that at best it's not just a misapplication, but at worst a full-on—
Right. Manipulation.
Manipulation or something, right? You know?
Right.
Any thoughts on that? How, that range there?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the Bible has been used as a tool of manipulation and power for you know, since the, you know, parchment. It's like this is, that's, yeah kind of tale as old as time. And I was thinking of maybe on the other side of it, on the other side of the spectrum is what I've experienced in counseling and therapy is someone will be sitting across from me and they're going through something very difficult emotionally. They've gone through something traumatic. And a lot of times I hear like, well, if this didn't happen, then I would believe that God is real. Or why is it that this would—and it's kind of like, it's like a proving. It's like if he would prove to me that he's real, he would do so by removing me this pain. And it's coming from an honest place. It's coming from a place of pain and hurt. And yet it's still like, prove it to me, Jesus. Prove, prove it to me that you are God. Because if you, if you're all powerful, you'll take this away from me. And it's interesting because again, it comes from an authentic place and that opens up, you know, conversation and you know, our perception and everything. But, but yeah, it's interesting how the Word can certainly be used in a lot of different ways.
And Jesus' response to the people was, he beared with them. He did, he used that as a teaching moment. He continued—he was compassionate on them. He, it's not like with the devil where he said, "'Be gone,'" you know? There's, he responded appropriately to each one, you know. If somebody is hurting, for example, they're hungry, they're hurting, his response is one of compassion still. But yeah, if, like the devil, he was actually intentionally trying to tempt Christ, in that case, his response was appropriate, "'Be gone,'" you know?
Yeah. Well, I wonder just like not fully knowing every context that this happens in, but Jesus would be able to discern kind of like the intention of how people are using Scripture, I guess, and like what is appropriate response to that. So, like the devil intentionally trying to trick him, which is like just so silly, because he's Jesus, but like, and so like, "'Be gone,'" which is a great example for us. Like when someone is intentionally using something against us, like disengage, that's just what are you going to do. But when people are truly like, I think—and all of us have been here—naive about what the Scriptures mean and we're kind of just genuinely like using Scripture to our best ability to understand God's will or make sense of what's going on in our world, I think that God is very patient with us and understands like a genuine intentional heart. But I might be oversimplifying that whole thing, but I just think that God is big enough that he can understand like, you know, where we're at in that and what we're trying to accomplish through that, you know.
Well, and to that, to kind of all these points is like there's a particular politician that's running right now for, in Texas. And it's interesting that he's using his platform of the pulpit in his run for power. And I think that that's just an interesting correlation right now using, using the Word of God, twisting it and then using it as self-promotion to elevate himself in front of man. It's interesting. It's happening right in real time.
A little bit of, a little bit of Scripture goes a very long way. I mean, it's the power of God. I mean, this isn't like anything else we will ever know or see in our lifetimes. I mean, it's God's power.
Yeah.
And it's why people can take small bits of it and lead people so astray with, and lead people in such a, to such a dead end. But to comment on what Robyn was saying, but God is good and God is big. And so, a lot of times newer believers, when I'm discipling newer believers, they'll say like, I just need God to prove himself. And I never really, I don't really bat an eyelash when I say, that's okay, he'll prove himself—to go along with, you know, God knows the authenticity of our heart, he knows what we're thinking. But on the other side of that, a lot of times people who are in pain and suffering, they're like, hey, God will show me who he is by taking this away from me. I still think that's a great place to be in because truthfully, God may, he could, but on the other side, he may take that person to a completely different place that they could never comprehend before that. And they'll see the goodness of God in a completely different way. But it had to start with a question somewhere. And it's the whole idea of being a searcher. And I really believe that, yeah, I know who I am in Christ and I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and I'm sealed for eternity. I know these things, but I'm still searching. I'll always be searching. I'm searching Scriptures that I've read over and over again. And the Holy Spirit keeps revealing more and more and more. To me, the danger is not in being a searcher. The danger is in being a searcher and being appeased by a counterfeit. That's where I see the real danger. It's like you search the Scriptures, you know these things, and then maybe you get caught up in a prosperity doctrine or something where all of a sudden that authentic search comes to an end. And I don't think that it comes to an end permanently. I think for all people who are truly searching for Jesus, we have our dead ends and our stops and our starts. But the fact that in all of our unfaithfulness and all of our confusion, that Christ is faithful, that answers the big question for me. It's okay to ask and that we should all keep searching. And he's going to keep refining us. He says it over and over again. So, I love the hope in, you know, not just like, hey, we're going to search forever. We're going to hit dead ends and be stalled out. I don't think so. I think in the goodness of God and the love of Jesus Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit, people whose hearts are authentic, they're going to find God.
Absolutely.
It's going to be a beautiful thing when they do, so.
Absolutely.
Amen.
Yeah, that's a good point. Because there's, one of the things that can stop a search is, like you said, appeasement, satisfaction, I guess, with a counterfeit, with a substitute, with something that feels like it fills the void, feels like it provides life, and yet really does not. So, what are some things that we need to probably be very mindful that we don't ever substitute that for true life that is in Jesus Christ. Because in Galatians 1:6, it says,
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ."
So, there's, there are counterfeits. There are other things that can even be preached, you know, to persuade people that it's the way that it's—"a different gospel," as it says, "not that there is another one," but that's how it gets presented sometimes. Some thoughts I had is just, you know, our own head knowledge, morals, you know, morals sometimes that's viewed as, well, I did the right thing or something, you know.
Right.
It's the right thing until somebody else who's smarter reevaluates it and can put someone in their place pretty quick sometimes, you know. Anyway, any other thoughts on some things that we should be aware of, that could be that different gospel, that different good news. And good news, like it's good news, I'm okay because of this.
Right. Yeah.
As opposed to the good news gospel is I believe in Jesus as the Christ.
Yeah. I mean, I think just piggybacking what you said and then you mentioned earlier, Jim, is just like, I'm a good person and so my own values, my own morals, that can bring a lot of a sense of security or a sense of fulfillment or I'm, I've reached the pinnacle because I haven't done X, Y, or Z. Then of course, it's, you know, under that mindset, it's relative. Like, well okay, so you haven't done this. So, I mean, A, why haven't you done it? Where did that come from? But then B, it's like, well, if I have a different set of values and morals and then you don't agree with that, is that wrong then, by definition? And then also to the point of elevating our own values and morals is like the top, is we can end up just being in our own echo chamber, either thinking the same thing over and over again, or we'll surround ourselves with people that say the same thing and it makes us feel good. And it's like, to the earlier points, not being fearful of questioning and the possibility that you've been wrong. And I think that's just a scary thing. And then you hold on to what you know. Because I've gotten this far with it and I got a car and I got a job and I got a picket fence and it's okay, right?
Yeah. I think also, I mean, to be like, slightly inflammatory, I think that there's a danger in the false gospel that looks, it just looks so close to the true gospel that you almost like think you're living out this Christianity, but you're not. Like, and I think in especially like in our very Western culture where it's very legal, it's very, I mean, this age still to be a Christian, like, we have a very churched America. And because people go to church and they sit in the pews, they may think that they know the Lord, but the Bible like talks about a time where Jesus is going to look at us, and for some people he's going to say, I never knew you, like. And so, I think that they're like, just to put it simply, I think that there are sometimes, probably close to what you're talking about there, but it can look, it just is so, there's so many things there where we go through the motions, we're doing the things, but we're not truly like, having an intimacy and a like a heart knowledge of the Lord where he is allowed to call out our sin, he's allowed to correct us, or where other people know us closely and they're allowed to check us and correct us where we're like living in growth. And I think also what I've seen a lot of is like, well, I went to church at some time, so I have this exposure or this knowledge of God, but like, you know, like, I know all the things because I did it at some point. So, thinking that you still know the Lord just because you sat in a pew. And I'm not trying to get into like Calvinism versus Armin—nothing, nothing like that. I just mean that is kind of whatever the danger is, for me is, do you know the Lord? Like really, at like, versus are you just a churched American kind of thing? So, I guess just specifically to our culture right now, that's what I would think would be really close to a false gospel, if not a false gospel. Yeah.
I think which gate are we trying to get through is a big question for me. Scripture's really clear that the way to Jesus is narrow. And especially in the Western church, we see this huge shift in the teaching, this huge shift in consumerism. Like, hey, I believe that we're forming consumers. We have to be really careful of that. They want to consume worship like a concert every night that you have church, they want to consume a motivational message that makes them feel better when they leave. But the narrow gate—that's the broad gate, everybody can follow through that. It doesn't take much to want to go to that, because I feel good every time I leave. On the other hand, I don't think it should all be hellfire and brimstone either. But the narrow gate tells me that I'm still searching. That's going back to the searcher thing again. I'm searching for that way to Christ and the only way, Scripture tells me, that I can only find it with humility, which means I'm going to be wrong about a lot of things along the way. And I can never get to a point where I'm like, hey, you know what? I've arrived. Paul says it himself. He's like, I haven't taken hold of it yet. And I think if a guy like Paul hadn't taken hold of it yet, how am I taking hold of it right now? But one thing I do is I press on and I strive towards what God has had. And that's what being a searcher is all about, in my estimation. There's a lot of ideologies in the world right now, and we trust in politics. I see this American nationalism fusion with Christianity that scares me right now in the world, because, yeah, God bless America, but we're not the only country in the world. And God doesn't just love America, he loves the world. And so, when we start to become too isolationist and we start to become too much of a club, there's a big problem in all of that. What are we worshiping? Are we worshiping America, or are we worshiping a God who loves everybody? Everybody has a name, everybody has purpose. And it doesn't mean you can't be patriotic, because I'm patriotic. But on the other side of it, it means that give me your tired, your poor actually really meant something to people coming here. It's like, hey, we were a country that wanted to help other people. That's very Christlike, that's very beautiful. And slowly we're becoming a country that doesn't want to help anybody else anymore. And again, it's part of that gate thing. It's really easy to just jump on the bandwagon with everybody else. It's a whole other thing when sometimes you just say, you know what? That's not for me. And we wait on the Lord and he leads us. But, yeah, there's a lot going on people are trusting knowledge, people are trusting politics, people are trusting all kinds of self-help types of things. I've never seen as much as there is now, especially with social media. I see it just all over the place. And it's sad to me that they can find a temporary fix on that. But the truth is, like for every single thing God has done, Satan has cloned it and counterfeited it in a much lesser way, but enough to fool us along the way. And so, I think that searching for that narrow gate, it's like, Jesus, I know you're there. It doesn't mean that it's an exclusive group or anything like that. It just means we're searching till the day that we're with him, when our faith becomes sight. That's a big deal.
Right.
It's faith right now. It'll be sight when we're with him.
Right.
But right now, we're like, okay, I don't see it, I don't feel it all the time.
Yeah, yeah.
We keep searching for it.
Seems like there's a little bit of a parallel between the narrow gate and sacrifice. And it seems like the wide gate is lack of sacrifice. Obviously in life you choose one thing, by definition you sacrifice everything else. And so, to choose one God, the God, Jesus, is to sacrifice all the other belief systems and all the other things that have been put into that highest place. And I think that sacrifice is difficult, sacrifice isn't pleasant, sacrifice isn't fun. There's portion of Scripture that like I'm sure that we all have at some point read and we're like, man, that kind of, that sounds kind of rough. That's not, that's not very pleasant. And yet, we have to sacrifice in those moments our own beliefs of what's right and how I feel for actually what is right. And that requires us to sacrifice, to die to ourselves. And I think that's really tough for a lot of people and anybody to die to themselves. It's tough for me. It's not pleasant, it's not easy. And yet that's what we're called to do, is to sacrifice on a daily basis. And I think there's some parallel probably to that narrow gate is paved somewhat with sacrifice because of what Jesus sacrificed for us.
Absolutely.
I think for me, not knowing what the sacrifice is going to be.
Oh, come on now.
That's where I get stuck, get hung up. I got to really think this through. Give me a hint?
Yeah.
What if it's my cool knives?
Never.
Going back to your blog, Jon, you were talking about how there are people who are more destination minded and more journey minded.
That's right.
That's a really fun, fun blog for me.
And that came, what thought, what came to mind with that was Mary and Martha. The contrast between those sisters and Martha would kind of come across as maybe the more reserved one and Mary the more journey person.
Whimsical.
Whimsical, I suppose. And they both have the same goal. They both have the same, they both love Jesus. They're just two different approaches. And I think there's room for both, you know. That more, there's a more reserved kind that is looking forward to heaven someday. And we've got kind of denominations that are, they got the hymns that are very much someday, you know, all the pain of the world will be gone.
I will fly away.
And for good reason because the world is tough, you know?
Yeah.
And it's like when Martha was talking to Jesus when Lazarus died, John 11:24,
"Martha said to him, 'I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.'"
She's looking forward to that.
Yeah.
Mary, of course, was the one who spent time actively at Jesus feet in the moment. Didn't want to miss out on—so that's kind of where I'm getting this thought that there's room for both. And it's, but it's the Pharisees who did neither, right?
Right.
They weren't really necessarily—or especially the Sadducees, they didn't even believe there's a resurrection. Right?
Yeah.
And.
Right.
And so, there's definitely something to be said for, I think, that there's different types of searching, you know, in—just to kind of use that analogy a little farther—is that the church is filled with people who might be, need more encouragement to look forward to heaven, you know, have that mindset, and then people who might need to be more encouraged to have the abundance of life that Jesus has for us even now, right?
Right.
I’ve come "'that they may have life and have it abundantly.'"
John 10:10. So.
Yeah.
Any thoughts on that?
Well, yeah, and I think what they both have in common is an authentic like search that there's, they want to know what is truth. They want to know, they want—that they are truly seeking. And yeah, I think that, yeah, the two little categories is, there's a, it's a big tent for people that are truly searching. And so, yeah, it got, it kind of plays into I think different personality traits and just ways that people approach life. And I think that Jesus would say if you're truly looking, like we already said, you will find me, like, and it's going to be good. And so, yeah, there's not, it's interesting, there's only one way, but it doesn't seem like there's just one way to search. And I think that Jesus meets us where we're searching and how we're searching, if it's true and authentic.
Yeah.
We talked about that portion of Jeremiah 29 where, when you seek me, you'll find me. But if you continue on in that same passage, God says something really cool. He says,
"'I will be found by you,'"
I'll be found by you when? When you seek me with all of your heart. And looping that back to the James comments earlier, when do we throw our whole heart out there? Not when we're on the top of the mountain and life is going great. We don't need to.
Right.
It's when we're in the pit that we throw our whole heart out there. And kind of to connect that to Mary and Martha, I think we have to have both. You can't be one or the other. I think we go through seasons of both, and both are necessary in our spiritual development. There's times when we have to sit at the feet of Jesus, but there's also a time for action. And I've always been kind of sad as an action person myself, that I always felt like Martha got the short end of the stick—
You're a Martha man.
—on that Scripture because they're like, you know, here's somebody who wants to get out and do something. And what I see in church sometimes is a lot of people who know an awful lot about Jesus, but they surely don't want to have that discussion. They don't want to do anything with it. It's kind of like we've arrived where we're at and don't ask us to do anymore. So, I think there's a little bit of Mary and a little bit of Martha in all of us, but I think they're both, like, really, really necessary. And one other thing I want to say is just that, you know, with all of these counterfeits to Jesus—there are so many—I think we have to ask people if we want to know, if we want to be responsible Christians and people are sharing their hope with us and hope that isn't found in Jesus, I think we have to ask them, well, first of all, what do you believe about Jesus himself? And then I think, secondly, we have to say to them, well, where is life found? So, we ask those two questions. What do you believe about Jesus? That will give us plenty of work to do, depending on what somebody's answer is. And then where is life really found? So, if you're searching and Jesus is just part of that, that's okay, because that can grow. But I think we have to guide people along the way as well as leaders. I think, you know, we have to say, hey, it's great that you believe in Jesus, but where, what does Jesus say about where life is found?
Right.
And that's where a lot of people hit the wall. Because the truth is, Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth and the life. That's super controversial. You say that today and people are like, well, there's many other ways to God. But the truth is, the biblical truth is he's the only way. And so, our remedy for those counterfeits is to continue to discuss and question, first of all, who is Jesus? And secondly, where do we find life? And I think those things are a little Mary and a little Martha. The where is life part, a little philosophical, maybe at the feet of Jesus. The, you know, who is Jesus? Getting to know him, that takes a little more action in some ways. So, I think there's a place for both of those things. So.
Yeah.
Good. Matthew Henry has a commentary on this word, "search," basically. He says,
"We must aim at some spiritual benefit and advantage in reading and studying the scripture, and often ask, 'What am I now searching for?' We must search as for hidden treasures (Prov. 2:4), as those that sink for gold or silver, or that dive for pearl, Job 28:1-11. This ennobled the Bereans, Acts 17:11."
That's the end of his quote. But now Acts 17:11 says,
"Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."
So, those Scriptures being the Old Testament. So, examining the Scriptures, how would that change how you read the Old Testament law, prophets, historical books, poetry, knowing that the Scriptures speak about Jesus? The Bereans, as in Acts there, they were examining the Scriptures, you know. That would be the portion that they're looking at and finding Jesus in the Old Testament. So.
Right.
So, how does, how do you see Jesus in the Old Testament?
Right. There's a great book I read years ago called The Emmaus Code by David Limbaugh, and it goes through every book of the Old Testament, and it says where Jesus is found in each of those books. And really cool read because it's, he's there in all of them. And I think also what's interesting is, it's over 300, but how many prophecies in the Old Testament point to Jesus that he fulfilled? It's like 300 plus. And so, with those, with kind of that in mind a bit—and we have the luxury of having this information and then going back and looking at it—but it's wild because everything points to Jesus. Like that's the whole thing in the Old Testament points to Jesus.
The whole point.
The whole point.
Yeah.
And it's everything, everything changes in the Old Testament when you are looking through the lens of Jesus.
Yeah.
It's yeah, it, it's way deeper.
Yeah.
It's really cool.
Yeah.
Similar to that, there's The BEMA Podcast in, for people who haven't heard of it, it actually goes back into the original language and what was the culture and what did the culture say of it? And you get so much more out of the Scriptures, and you learn so much more, it's a deeper dive and same thing. You just see so much more of Jesus in it because you under—you have, your understanding, your depth of your understanding is so much greater.
Very cool. We don't promote other podcasts.
We do today.
I was thinking about this, and I put some notes in here about the Old Testament pointing to Jesus. First of all, the law reveals our need for Jesus. So, you start thinking about the law and you are looking for a way out right away. Might not be always the right way out, but Jesus is refreshing. The history is God's faithfulness. We look back on the history; we see all of his faithfulness. He never fails. The poetry is a longing for him. I read in the Psalms what David's saying. He's longing for God. They're longing for him. And the prophets, they're promising the Savior is coming. And the Bible's ultimate purpose, truthfully, is the coming King. And so, when I look at the Old Testament, I see those things in there. On another place, or in another place though, I think that it's easy to approach it chunk by chunk by chunk, and you get lost in all of it. And I really think it's important that people read Scripture as one big story, not chunk by chunk, because you miss out on a lot of it when you go to one place and you skip to another and you go to another. That's not always the best way to preach. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But for personal study, reading the Bible as a story is really important. And a lot of people will say never try to read from Genesis to Revelation, you'll get lost in there. I completely disagree with that. I think that the way that events form in my mind and chronology and all those things, I look at it, I'm like I need to know that there was a beginning and I need to know what's going to happen in the end. And so, it does a beautiful job of laying all of that out. Even with the Song of Solomon.
I was going to say you forgot that book.
Forgot that.
How does that point to Jesus?
The forgotten book.
That's right. Yeah, I've heard it said like the Old Testament is Jesus is coming; the Gospels, Jesus is here; and then from the Gospels to Revelation, Jesus is coming again.
Love it.
And so, it's, yeah, it all points towards Jesus.
It does. Yeah.
I just think it's interesting like we've talked about how there are different things that can take our attention or that we can work towards that isn't God. And I guess a subcategory of that is different religions, different belief systems and just really quick, just a few of them.
So, the Christian perspective, right? The meaning, so the meaning of life, right, is the ultimate purpose of human life is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
The atheist perspective—since there's no higher power to dictate a plan, atheists believe individuals are responsible for creating their own meaning.
Humanistic natural perspective—humanists believe in the inherent dignity of humanity and the ability of humans to shape their own destiny. Meaning is anchored in ethical living.
Agnostic perspective—instead of committing to a definitive stance on the existence of a higher power, agnostics focus on living authentically in the present. Purpose is often found in continuous learning, deep relationships, and open-minded pursuit of truth and beauty, embracing the mystery rather than needing a definitive answer.
And then pagan—the meaning of life is found in living harmoniously with the natural world, honoring cycles of the earth and engaging in community and ritual.
It just interesting. It seems like Christianity, it's focused towards Jesus. All the other ones it's focused either towards self or created, the Creation. And it's just, I don't know, it's just, it's, I guess it goes back to the point of some of these are kind of close like some of them have, like they're stepping in that right in, in the right direction or in a direction that recognizes that there's something bigger than ourselves, but we can get caught up in, we can get caught up in good enough.
Yeah.
And that's a scary place.
Well, and Jesus said, you know, even though those things all have the same goal, life, right? He says in verse 40 of chapter 5 of John,
"'yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.'"
So, he's offering what basically all the, everything is, humanity's looking for life. Humanity generally wants to live. What he is speaking about himself and what he says the Scriptures say is that he is what people are looking for. Even if, even if they weren't searching the Scriptures, if they're just searching in general.
Right.
He still is what they're searching for, right?
Right. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's interesting that you see people come out of all of these belief systems and all of them say the same thing. It never filled me up and never gave me what I was looking for. I searched and searched, and you get to a place of complacency, and you think, this is the best it's going to be. And then you get a little taste of Jesus, and you realize you're off the mark the whole time. And—
With the Apostle Paul, I think it's amazing that, I mean, he was so learned when it came to Scriptures, but all of that learning didn't do anything for him. It actually was an obstacle to him. And one of the biggest obstacles that I see, it's not evidence. The Bible gives us evidence. We have archeological evidence. We have other writings that give us evidence. It's never about the evidence. This is where it gets down to Jesus Christ. It's about heart. It's about a change of heart. So, you have a learned Pharisee of all Pharisees who knows conceptually all of the Old Testament, what it means, how it's laid out. And he still can't see Jesus until his heart changes. And I think that's one of the greatest things about Paul is he was Saul and that whole big change happened. And all of a sudden, Saul, the uptight Pharisee, all of a sudden had a heart. And I don't think it was soft right away. I think that was a ongoing dying-to-self process for Paul, especially when he found out he was going to be going to the Gentiles. I think he was like, really? I mean, this is the best you can do? I, I've turned my whole life around and now you're going to send me. But in the end, what does he say? He talks about what an honor it is to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. Like that's a special, that was a special thing. And so, yeah, I think that there's tons of evidence for faith and for Christ and for God. It's out there, it's everywhere. But it all comes down to a change in heart. And that can only happen through Christ and the Holy Spirit. And so, I feel very blessed to have a heart change in my life. Not just know everything up in my head intellectually, but to know that my heart does lead me, but that heart is filled with Christ. It's not just my heart leading me, it's a Christ-filled heart and it's convicting and it's loving and it's fearful sometimes there's all those components in it, but nevertheless Christ is in the middle of it and so he's changing my heart every single day, all of ours. So.
Amen.
I kind of was just, as a question I guess to posit to the team here, just all this talk of searching and they were searching the Scriptures and they still miss Jesus. And I was, I'm just wondering for people who are listening, who are similar to us and love to search the Scriptures, what are some, maybe even practical ways that we can guard our heart against like that, I mean that sense of arrogance like that God could be standing in front of us and we might miss him? How do we, like what are I guess just like spiritual disciplines or mindsets that to be weary of. I'm not sure. But does that make, question make sense? Like.
Yeah.
Because we could easily just end up being just like them. Like we could read this and be like, oh naughty Pharisees and then kind of miss the point, you know, like. And even though maybe God is not going to like walk up in front of us in the flesh, but we very well could be searching for our whole life for something and have the arrogance or the lack of faith to see when God answers that prayer kind of thing. So, I don't know, like, just what would be your guys' thoughts on that? If it's helpful, but.
I mean I'm a simple man with simple thoughts and I just, I personally, I just ask God for humility and that's like please keep me humble so that I don't think I know more than I do. And that's my little simple remedy is I just ask God to keep me humble and to guard against arrogance. I just ask God to help me in all the areas that I know I can't help myself in.
I think there could be a tendency to view the Christian life as like a job in a sense where the longer you're in it, the more seniority you attain and the more, because there's always, there's like new believers all the time, right? And so, that's kind of like a new hire on the job site, right? And it's like Paul was like a radically saved new believer in a sense. Right? And yet he gets in Peter's face about what true freedom is. And so, one thing to be on guard about is probably just like taking some pride in how long you've been a Christian and relying on that somehow as like—and somehow allowing that to hinder you from searching. When a new believer might question some, maybe a strongly held belief, and maybe they're right because maybe they're spending a little more time in prayer and spending a little more time in the Word then. Maybe we got a little bit comfortable. Maybe.
They're searching purposefully.
They just might be more actively searching.
Right.
I just. And they need guidance, of course, everybody does. But just to be on guard against that, I think, is a possibility. Seniority doesn't have quite the same weight in the Christian life as—
Walmart.
As, as Walmart. I don't know.
Discipleship isn't like a 12-week course that you take and, you know, you level up every 12 weeks the longer you do it.
Yeah.
I love what you said. I think that there's a place for humility and then there's a place for faith. And I think humility and faith go hand in hand. We're going to be arrogant from time to time because we're sinners. But the beautiful part is in all of our unfaithfulness, Christ is faithful. And so, when I think of this as a whole, like, how do we handle that kind of thing? I have to trust in God like I've never trusted in him before. I have to trust in Jesus like I've never trusted him before. To say you, I belong to you. And because I belong to you and I'm precious to you, you're going to hold my hand and lead me through these times where I'm a little inflated, but you're also not going to let me live deflated all the time as well. And in all my unfaithfulness, you're faithful in all of that, faithful to the end, to take us and complete us. And that's where my hope really lies, is all my deficiencies as a pastor, all my deficiencies as a husband, as a father, just a person in general, I've got to trust that Jesus Christ has me. And if I approach him humbly, he's going to just keep walking me through. And even when I don't approach him humbly, I shouldn't even really say that. I mean, he is so faithful that he has walked me through the good, the bad and the ugly, all of us. And I think it's a great kind of a ending piece is it always points to Jesus and Jesus' faithfulness never ends. I mean, it's like the eternal answer to all of our problems and issues is his faithfulness and his love.
I think the same thing that I just accept that I'm going to have that place of arrogance, that's going to be where I land sometimes. And, but as I am drawing closer to him, he's going to shake me out of that and show me where I'm wrong and help me to grow in that and kind of get out of my own way and into him.
Yep.
We'll go ahead with closing thoughts at this point as we wrap up this topic of search. Dr. Jon?
Yeah, so I think my closing thought kind of falls more in line a little bit with kind of like we're talking about earlier, those who might be going through the motions in church, but not necessarily like it's more of a, of a culture or, you know, a type of identity than it is an actual relationship with Christ. So, this is from Entrepreneurship Facts' post.
It says,
"Being busy can be one of the most dangerous forms of self-deception.
It feels productive.
It feels responsible.
It feels like you're getting somewhere.
But activity alone guarantees nothing.
You can spend years climbing a ladder only to realize it was leaning against the wrong wall.
That realization hurts.
Not because you worked hard.
But because you worked hard on the wrong thing.
Before you ask how to work more, make sure you're working on something worth building."
And then it says at the bottom of that, it says,
"Motion and progress are not the same thing."
And I don't know, I just think that it's a good, it's good for me too, just to re, like evaluate, check in with myself to see am I going through the motions? Am I, like we said earlier, have I been a Christian so long that I can get complacent or kind of ride, you know, put it in neutral and just coast? So yeah, I think that what we talked about here today was wonderful. Not just for like, it's, it all started with the Pharisees like they were nefarious in it, but it swings back to a very personal application, is, what am I doing in my life? Am I truly searching? Or am I just like, yeah, I'm reading my chapter for the day. I'm just doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Because to Jim's earlier point is, there's such a depth if you are truly searching. And not like, we've searched and found Christ. So, there's that, but then there's searching for, okay, how deep can I go? Like, what revelation can I learn? And it's never ending, which is, it's the most fun thing to be a believer in Christ because you, you'll learn more and more, and he'll speak to you in deeper and deeper ways. And it's just, it's a heck of a ride.
Yeah.
Amen. I echo that. I just, my prayer would be for anybody listening to find that place of getting back into that searching. And I love Proverbs 25:2,
"It is the glory of God to conceal things,
but the glory of kings is to search things out."
I mean, God wants us to search for him. God wants him us to know him. God wants us to take that time and grow deeper with him. And that can be a little scary because you don't know where that path might lead. But then you ask him to walk that out with you too. You know, he's always going to be in that with you and walk the road with you. He's never going to leave you or forsake you. And so, my prayer is just to go for it, go deeper. It is going to be an eternal thing that we do. We will go deeper with God eternally. And this is just kind of the first fruits of that. And the rewards are incredible.
Wow. Yeah. I, my final thoughts are a little different. I think the tragedy of John 5 is that the people who were most devoted to studying God's Word, they were the ones that failed to recognize God's Word in flesh in Jesus Christ. They knew the Scriptures, but they missed the Savior. And I think for all of us, there's a little warning in that. Be careful where you search and stay in tune to what you're searching for with an end in mind, maybe, of moving forward. But we can know the Bible and we can love theology. We can attend church, and we can still miss the one that everything is pointing to in Jesus Christ. And the purpose of the Scripture, it's not just to inform us or inform our minds. The beauty and the purpose of Scripture is to lead us into the presence of a savior that loves us so much, gave everything for us, and to really transform us and change us. And so, that's kind of my closing thought, I guess.
That's good.
Good.
Yeah. Mine probably is similar to what you guys have already been talking about, but I think studying this word was kind of really fun for me, I think, just because of, I immediately found myself feeling like a Pharisee. And that's a weird setup for what I'm about to say. But it kind of, I just, when I read the Scriptures, I try and think, like, how am I like this person and what's the lesson I can learn? I guess. And I almost feel like the Lord immediately brought some personal situations to my mind where, like, you've been asking me for this thing, or you've been searching for this thing, and maybe now it's in front of you and you don't even, like, it's, you're in disbelief because you kind of never thought it was going to happen. And so, we, I mean, even in this discussion, we've all kind of speculated why, like, why did they miss it? And the Scripture doesn't say for sure, but, I mean, God did, Jesus said, like, you refuse to believe it kind of thing. Like, God gives us enough that we should be able—like, he gives us a measure of faith, so we should be able to—he gives us what we need in order to believe and to trust him, right? And so, on, like, for me, on a personal level, it, like you were saying, we know the Lord, we've searched, in a sense, and we found the Lord himself. But to continue going further and to even just to continue to believe that he has more beyond what we already know as seasoned Christians or what we've already experienced, that there is a greater depth that we can go to and that he really is the prize. Like, in the, the journey and the relationship of the Lord is like the most fun and most exciting thing. And because of things like this, like, I thought I had it figured out, and God still surprises me. And even that he thinks, like, I am worth continuing to pursue in that relationship. Right? Like, I don't deserve any of this, but it's still exciting for him to continue to reveal his goodness to us. And so, I don't know if that, like, summarizes everything, but my kind of closing thought was, I think that in actuality, we're a lot more like the Pharisees than we think we are most of the time and that there's a lot to learn from them, usually what not to do, but. But I thought it was a really fun study, and I would encourage anyone to kind of look at where they're at. Not just like, okay, I found God and I'm done. But, like, how much further can I go, and can I still be humble enough that God can still show me who he is and kind of shake up my world a little bit? So. Done.
Can I just give a shout out to my friend John? A quick update. My friend John has been listening since day one and he disappeared on us. But there's the rumors he's back in Seattle.
Awesome.
So, if he's listening, we love you, John. We can't wait to see you.
Yeah.
Excellent. Glad to hear it.
Our number one fan.
He's got the best name.
Keep searching, John.
With an H?
Yeah, with an H.
I don't trust silent letters.
Well, that wraps up this episode of The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. Thank you, panelists. Thank you, listeners. Please like and subscribe if you're so inclined.
Please be inclined.
We look forward to another episode soon.
Take care, everybody.
Alright. Bye.
Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to, like, share, subscribe, and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com.
