S3 E7 "Force" • John 6:14-15

You going to start with a joke this time? Well, I—so, I did look up a joke that had to do with, like, "force" or "forceful." This is, I swear, it's the only one that came up, really, that was worth sharing. But it says, my dog forcefully jumped into my arms. Left me no choice. I had to put him down. Oh. You—that cannot be the only one that came up. Brutal. That's basically it. You— Redo. So, then I asked. So then what if, what if you were to tell a joke, AI, about The Defined Podcast using the concept of force? I like these ones. Eh. It said, how does the teaching and psychology background on The Defined Podcast handle a stubborn door? They don't use physical force, they just reframe the hinges until the door feels deeply understood and willingly opens itself. Okay, that's actually pretty good. Whoa. I like the dog one better. Is there a third option? Nope. Oh, okay. That's all I got. Should we take a vote? There's five people in this room. Okay. Raise your hand if you like the first one better. Two paws. You can't. I'm making up this game. I'm making up the rules. Okay, if you like the second one better. Okay. Some of you didn't vote. The first one. Wow. I think laughing is a prerequisite to voting for either, and I did neither, so. So, it's tied. Well, actually. Ineligible. Three paws to two. Disagree. Welcome back to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. My name is Chris. Dr. Jon is back in the studio once again. Howdy. And we're joined with Special Education Teacher Robyn Nelson. Cue the hello. Oh, hello. I have literally asked about this one. I know you did. I said, do you want us to say hello? I know. We've been waiting ever since. You said nope. Nope. What's up? Rogelio Navarro, Licensed Mental Health Counselor; and Small Business Owner Maxine Toh. Welcome back, everybody. Hey, good to be back. Thanks a lot. Maxine, tell us about your business. An update, if you will. What are you doing these days? Yeah, what am I doing these days? So, I did have a background in coaching, so I was doing life coaching for the last four years, on and off. I recently felt led to move in a different direction, and so I've discovered the world of color. So, I am now a certified color analyst. And so, if you want to follow along, I have some really fun videos on just transformations, challenges, guess your best color, that sort of thing. It's Beauty by Design Studio on Instagram. So, if you want to check it out. Great. We'll get that in the show notes. What would you say about a coat of many colors? Is that recommended? You know— Never heard of it. —there's got to be at least some colors that match. Okay. I'm sure you charge a well-deserved analysis fee, but a quick thumbs up or thumbs down around the table? I can handle it, I think. Chris, you failed. You failed the color expressiveness. Let's do that off the recording. Let us have it. Let us have it. You're the professional. Do it, do it, do it, do it. I think you guys all look great, actually. It's hard for me not to actually watch people and go, oh, those look. I bet. This color would look terrible on me. I know that. Really? Yeah. Oh, gosh. My eyes. All right, well, we are. Hey— Go ahead. —one quick question, though. Is there any color that is universally good, like, on everybody? That is a fantastic question. There are some. Usually kind of the middle of the road colors where they're like, not too bright, not too soft, not too warm, not too cool. So teal is known as, like a pretty universal color. Bravo, Ro. A medium teal. Brav Ro. Kind of like a navy blue. Like, it's not quite as harsh as black. I don't want to break anyone's hearts, but it's a common misnomer that black looks good on everyone. Yeah. It's a little too stark. So, like, a navy is kind of more forgiving for everyone. Gotcha. Your two free tips for today. Find more on Beauty by Design Studio. What about a nice forest green? I like that color on everybody, but I just like that color. Like this kind of green? Or like a— Exactly this color green. Works great for warm-colored people in autumns. I would look half dead. It's good. Yeah. Sorry to cut you off. I just had to know. It's a great question. You gotta know. Our topic today is the word "force" as it appears in John chapter 6. I'll read verses 14 and 15 out of the ESV. "When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, 'This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!' Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself." And some of the questions that kind of come up in reading that passage there is like, why would Jesus withdraw? In what way was this approach to making him king by force contrary to God's will? So, there's a little bit to jump in there as to why he would do that, when on the surface, it kind of seems like it's a good thing. Right? He is the, he is the king, and yet he, in not in this way. So, we'll go ahead with opening thoughts around the table. And we'll dig in a little deeper. Go ahead, Dr. Jon. Yeah, well, I thought it was just kind of interesting, like, why. Yeah, why would Jesus remove himself from the situation? And the, I looked up really quick, what is like the Greek, the Greek word or the meaning in Greek for force or how it's used in this particular passage. And I mean, not too shockingly, but to seize or to snatch. And so, I started to look up other places in the Bible where the same word is used, at least the grammatical variation of the same word that's used here. So, you got Matthew 11:12. That was a forceful cough. That was so satisfying for me. Okay, that's better. All right, so. So, some examples around the Bible. You have Matthew 11:12, which reads, "'From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.'" Matthew 13:[19], "'When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart.'" John 10:12, "'He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.'" And then John 10:29, "'My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.'" And then finally, Acts 23:10, "And when the dissension became violent, the tribune, afraid that Paul would be torn to pieces by them, commanded the soldiers to go down and take him away from among them by force and bring him into the barracks." So, this was like a mob. It was more like, it was more like this is an intense, like, takeover. And it wasn't like, hey, Jesus, we really want you to come up here. Doesn't seem, anyways. It's like, no, we're going to put you where we want to put you. And it seems like there was some, I would say, ulterior motives besides, like, this is the Christ. So, it was like a, it just seems like it was way more of, like, a mob mentality. And I just wrote down, this wasn't for Jesus' good. It was a mob that wanted what they wanted. I think one thing that is just so impressive is that, what it reminds me of is—I mean, I don't know that Jesus struggled with this—but I think sometimes we can be tempted by the world and the shortcuts that the world wants to take in order to get to where we think we need to go. And so, but Jesus was so aware of his Father's will, his Father's timing, the way that his Father wanted him to do things that he wasn't like tempted in any way to go, oh well that could be a shortcut to the way, to the way it goes. And we've seen people try to take shortcuts in the past. Like I think about Abraham and Sarah who instead of waiting for God's promises, said, oh, let's help God, let's just do it this way. We can, we can make it happen in our own timing. And so, it just begs the question of like where in our own lives are we perhaps trying to do things out of timing or trying to conform God to like our version of what we think God should be in our lives? And so, love to dig into that more. But I'll leave it at that for now. Nice. Nice. Yeah, for me, I'm just going to start very personal with this one. I think, I kind of relate to more when I think about like force and you know, God's availability to us and his perfect love and his perfect authority. I think of, well, I think of how those go together 100 percent, his perfect love and perfect authority, and how he never forces himself onto anyone. And so, any of our faith, our personal faith, it's also a response to, to his, to him. But my point with that is that because if we look at Christ himself, he was not just sufficient for the salvation of souls, but he actually was, he was super abundantly sufficient for the salvation of everyone, like all of humanity. Right? But we also know that not the entire humanity gets saved. And so, from that angle Jesus is enough. But there's a response required from people and he won't force people to have faith and he won't force people to believe. Yep. Yeah. That's good. I mean, I guess like my opening thoughts were a little on the personal level too of kind of this idea of like there's, I mean, what's wrong with wanting Jesus to be king? And like, I wonder, I just wonder like what Jesus' own thoughts were. Like, obviously like he was wanting to escape and he retreated. There is that mob mentality. I actually had to Google that because I was like, could they literally just force someone to be king who didn't want to be king? And there is that mob mentality that kind of overtakes and things happen and get violent. So, he did what he did to, you know, get out of that. But that, I just was like trying to think of how this plays out in our own lives of, like, sometimes wanting, maybe even if anyone's ever looked at you and wanted you to be something in their life that you couldn't be for them, like. Like, there was nothing wrong with a desire for it. Because I even think about this time, like it was Roman rule and it was pretty oppressive. And so, they were looking for some sense of salvation from that too. And the point that he came for was much bigger than that. And that would absolutely, like, kind of, you know, subvert what he actually came to do. But I just had, like, a lot of thoughts on, like, there's this—I don't think there's anything really wrong with what they wanted so much as how they were willing to go about getting it. They kind of misunderstood the point what Jesus was trying to do. And also, like, how that happens in our own lives all the time too, of this, like, maybe I want somebody to be something in my life that they can't be for me or vice versa. And it was interesting to see that play out for Jesus in that situation, so. Alright, good. Yeah, the people were expecting a prophet, kind of when they say, “'This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!'” they're, it looks like they're referring back to Deuteronomy 18, where it says, starting in verse 15, “'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me,'" now this is Moses speaking, "'from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, "Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die." And the Lord said to me, "They are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him."'" And so that's, that seems to be what the people had in the back of their mind when they were like, oh, this is the prophet. That's what they said. They didn't say, this is the Messiah. They didn't say, this is, you know, they want to make this person the king. Kind of like Moses was their leader. It kind of seems like that might have been what they had in the back of their mind. Yeah. That maybe just like Moses led the people out of Exodus, or out of Egypt through the Exodus, then this person can be their leader and lead them out of Roman captivity. Right? And yet that's not quite what Jesus, his purpose was in that point. And I also kind of thought back to like, the temptation of Jesus. That was one of the things that the devil used. Like, I will make you, I'll give you all these kingdoms. Right? Right. And I just wonder if Jesus' withdrawing was—it didn't say it was a temptation in the text there, but it sure was kind of the same setup, wasn't it? Which is what we're instructed to do with temptation is. Well, yeah. Basically— Right. —get away from it. And also, I thought of, like, when Peter said, this will not happen to you. Right. You will not go to the cross or something like that. And Jesus said, get behind me, Satan. Right? Right. So, it kind of made me think like, maybe that was like a way where, why did Jesus withdraw? Well, maybe it was removing himself from that situation. And I wonder if, like, I wonder if there were some temptations that were stronger than others for Jesus, just like they are for us. Right. And like, Jesus being king and want—I would imagine—wanting to rule in a way that is just and holy, the way that his Father has given him the authority to do so, that that could be one of the temptations that is like, the more like, this is actually what I want. And yet I know that this isn't the way that my Father has laid it out for me. So, it would be interesting since it did come up like three different times. And maybe there's more than just those three that we just discussed where Jesus is like, nope, I got to get out of here. Right. Because I do want this. I mean, he wants to be Lord over our lives. That's pretty clear in the text. But that's an interesting thought. Like, because, like, that's what he was designed to do in a way. Right. Like he was designed to rule. So, like, that would make sense that he would have, be tempted and toward that way, you know? Perhaps. I feel like it would make sense to me that Jesus was tempted throughout his life, not just three times. Oh, for sure, right. Yeah. And maybe just another layer of this. You know how like, it says in Revelation 19:16 and also 1 Timothy 6:15, Jesus is called King of kings and Lord of lords. Would it be settling for less than best to just to be king only? Yeah, I mean, he's King of kings. Right. But isn't there like a temptation to settle for just king when he actually is King of kings. That's good. Right. Well, and he would be a just king. Like, in going up through all the kings of the Old Testament, I mean, every one of them failed. And I'm sure Jesus was like, well, I wouldn't fail. Like, I couldn't fail. And yet I would only be king. And yeah, not King of kings. Be trading great for good. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I think there was something interesting too in some of the discussion questions we talked about. Of like, when you think about a political king and what that would mean. To me, it probably meant like someone kind of far away, kind of removed from the people. People being forced to rule—under him. Not having any, like, say in that. And like, Rogelio, what you were saying about, like, that's not the relationship that Jesus wanted with his people. Like, I think about the parable of the Master who invited everyone to the banquet. Like, literally the end, everybody was invited. But he only, he didn't force anyone to come. And yeah, it just feels like that's, like Jesus wanted a different relationship with us. And in the end, he ends up calling us friends, not servants. And so, yeah, it's just interesting thinking about what kind of relationship he really wanted. Yeah. Yeah. So, we see that Jesus did withdraw again to the mountain by himself. And that's kind of like, it's kind of like a cause-and-effect thing. Like it says, perceiving that they were about to do this, then he did that. And so, and I just wonder if there's anything that we could take from that as to where, we know that Jesus will not leave us or forsake us. But at some level it can feel like if we force something, God might not be in it. And that is sort of a—I don't want to read into the text there—but just it seems like there's a cautionary note there about not forcing something because we want God to actually be in it. What do we risk if we force an issue? And is there any other biblical examples of issues being forced and then which then kind of in a sense causes God to withdraw or causes God to not be in it? Or perhaps better stated, we would remove ourselves from God's presence in that sense. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the more intense examples is Acts 19:13-16. It says, "Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, 'I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims.' Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. But the evil spirit answered them, 'Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?' And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." It's, you kind of wonder that example if, like, if they were doing something that was not in line with what—they obviously weren't like, they weren't acting under the authority of God in that moment. And, but they were using the name of Jesus and they were using the things that they had seen, maybe the disciples do, or some things they'd seen, you know, some of Christ's followers do. And they're saying, well, maybe this is the secret sauce. Maybe we can do it too. And that didn't turn out too well for them. I don't, even though I don't necessarily understand enough to know kind of why their approach didn't work, it reminds me of how, basically, whenever we believe that God will act, we kind of have to be in line with his will in a sense of—I mean, I think of like the branches in the vine. Right? He's the vine and we have to graft ourselves into his plan or his will. We still have to believe. And so, I'm not sure about this case, but I feel like his will gets affected kind of through us. Or maybe we cooperate with God's will sort of in a way that we, we're grafted into his will, not just the belief itself. Because sometimes people can take, or I can take belief as like, oh, if I believe hard enough, then I'll affect this change or something. But if it doesn't line up with God's will, you know, it doesn't work in reverse. Like his will, I have to believe it to kind of cooperate with it. But if I believe something, it doesn't mean that it becomes God's will. So, I think belief can just on its own, cannot, doesn't, you know, tell, it doesn't give God the timing to act. Right. Right. Yeah. I think in some ways, too, a lot of times it's also sort of the good, better, best life in God. Like, I don't know if, you know, we're not necessarily debating doing really crazy things, but I think it can be very tempting, again, to kind of compromise even on the small things, you know, whether it's like, I want to get married now, so I'm just going to marry, you know, this guy, even though he's you know, really not really going the way that I want to go and things like that. And I think that God is gracious, and I think that, you know, he'll come whenever we want him to come. But it, I was literally having this conversation in the car with God this morning because I was thinking, okay, God, like, are, where are there places in my life where I'm trying to impose my timeline on you and where I need to really submit that to you? And really have that honest conversation with the Lord where I was like, okay, God, like, if this and this relationship status and the way that my life is right now is actually going to bring you more glory and actually reach more people, then, like, I choose to submit to that, then try to make things happen in my own way and not reach as many people. So that's kind of my good, better, best thought about things as well. Well. No, you go ahead. I was just gonna say that's a beautiful example of submission, because I feel like we all struggle with that. Most of us really struggle with submission. So, thank you for that. Yeah, no, I don't, but. Except Robyn. That's right. I was just kidding. No, but even that question that you posed originally remind me of what Maxine was saying toward the beginning and that, like, Abraham and Sarah with Isaac, and there was a promise they had—like, the idea was right, but then they thought they needed to help God out. And what ends up happening is, like, centuries worth of just, you know, all of this, like, there are just consequences that could not have been perceived by just trying to help God do something he already said he was gonna do. And I think that that's what's interesting about this, is like they did, it says they recognized Jesus as the prophet that Moses was talking about. They weren't wrong about that. But then what they tried to do with that is make him into something that he wasn't. And so, it's, it is like that lesson in our own lives of surrender versus, like, okay, maybe the thing that God said, maybe he really did say that to me and he really did promise that. But what is my role now is me trying to help God do something he can do on his own and force my way versus submitting to him and surrendering to him because he's got it. So. Yeah. And I mentioned King Saul and David is like an example to where he had the opportunity to force something. Even that was something that had been prophesied. He was going to be king. Right? And in 1 Samuel chapter 24 starting in verse 4, it says, "And the men of David said to him, 'Here is the day of which the Lord said to you, "Behold, I will give your enemy into your hand, and you shall do to him as it shall seem good to you."’” And basically, David had the opportunity to kill Saul and become the king and, but he didn't force it. He didn't make it happen in that moment. And yet the road still led to the throne. He still got there eventually. God's timing. Yeah, right. And so, the way seemed to matter. And yet even though he might, David might have been in a dark place in that moment, being hunted basically, it didn't mean that he wasn't in the will of God for that moment. He was still going to see, God was still going to see that promise occur. Right. Wow. Yeah. I almost feel like there's like a natural tendency—I don't know if this is just our own nature as humans—but like, the tendency to want to, like, almost like how much can I get away with before God leaves me? It sounds like a terrible, like, mode to operate in. But, like, I feel like sometimes that's just how we default is like, how much can I get away with without God leaving me instead of what's the least I can get away with? Well, it's like, because the Bible says God is slow to anger also. I don't know if his anger is enacted with our behavior. But it's like, just because something doesn't happen right away, because when we do something we're not supposed to, it doesn't mean that we're not in danger of that thing being corrected at some point down the road—which, lovingly, he will correct us. But I know, it's like we do, sometimes going down a path that we know isn't right. Well, nothing's happening yet, so I'll just do a little bit more. Nothing's happening yet, I'll do a little bit more. And then eventually it's as if the natural consequences also catches up with us to the point where it's like, yeah, God will deal with us, but it's also like we're kind of making our bed and we're about to sleep in it. And so, there's the safety net of God correcting us, and then there's the natural consequences. And those are, yeah, those are big corrective tools for sure. But I think you're right, Ro. Right, Ro. I just thought it was interesting that up until this point it seems like the last time we hear people like wanting a king it was back in 1 Samuel when the Israelites didn't want to be led by God specifically anymore, but they wanted a king. And so, I don't know if there's much to that, but it's just kind of interesting that now again, Jesus is on the scene and the people want a king again, and there's the consequences that come with the king. And it's interesting that again, I don't think the people really knew what they were asking for because in 1 Samuel 8:4-19 it reads, "Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah and said to him, 'Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.' But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, 'Give us a king to judge us.' And Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, 'Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.'” And then Samuel goes into this long exposition about what actually they will experience with a king, like all the other nations, versus God leading them. And it's not a great list. I mean, verses 10 through pretty much the end of the chapter, I believe, it's just, it's a lot of, well, this is the consequence of having a king. And so, it's interesting that the people wanted, it seemed, like a king again. And it's almost like a mirror image back then to now. And it just seems like that, well, I just wrote, the people wanted a king again, but God in his mercy and grace was not going down that road again. No longer would the people be ruled and governed as in the old days. God would give all people that which they didn't realize they needed: a savior not of their nation, but of their souls. Yeah, it kind of seems like kings of the world always involve some sort of power that gets abused. And most of the time people want a king to like get out of powerlessness or just to try to one up the other king or something. But so, it's really hard to imagine. I think in the world it's a big problem to think about a kingdom. Like, even the idea of a kingdom sounds kind of outrageous at this point because we know the abuse that goes with it. So, I think, I see why people would have a lot of trouble accepting the, even the word authority in our modern society, nobody likes that word because, you know, like, especially I would say in our US culture today, I feel like people kind of want something along the lines of like a, the people's democracy of Jesus or something. Like people want everything to be super equal and like even the idea of like authority, obedience, and power are just outrageous. Like, everybody hates the idea of a king. So, it's like, it's, maybe I'm going off topic a little bit, but modern times, I can see why people don't accept the idea of Jesus being king, just to put it bluntly. And there's a lot of rebellious behavior also. Rebellion is like, yeah, in complete opposition to authority and rule. So, and I turn on the news and yeah, it's just like little, like, city takeovers and, like, freeway takeovers where it's just, like, we're gonna do what we want, you can't tell us what to do. These, mostly young people. But yeah. It's a different type of king. I mean, it's a heavenly kingdom. Right. Yeah. So, it's a spiritual, God. Yeah. I think one thing also that God cares about that maybe, you know, a political king wouldn't care about is a political king might just say, follow the rules. Don't care what you think about it, just follow the rules. And Jesus, like, there is a passage in Matthew 23:27 where he actually confronts the Pharisees, right? He says, like, woe to you. Like you, you know, like you're whitewashed tombs. Like you "'outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones'" and uncleanness. And so like, God actually cares about the posture of our hearts, not just what we do on the outside. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sort of a random thought, I guess, is just how the people thought that Jesus was the prophet and they wanted to make him king. But if you refer back to that Deuteronomy, it just says, listen to him. Like that was the instruction, just listen to him. And it's like they wanted above and beyond or something totally kind of unrelated to what the instruction was. Later at the transfiguration, it's recorded in Matthew 17, "He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.'” So, the main thing is just to listen to him. And yet the people wanted him to kind of conform into a worldly system. They wanted Jesus to adapt to the world rather than the world adapt to Jesus. They wanted Jesus to, they wanted to cram him into like the Roman structure or whatever, rather than let their own lives conform around him. So. Right. I just wonder if there's a warning there against like putting our own structures and trying to cram God into that rather than giving him free rein and saying, what do you want to do right now? And if he chooses to withdraw from that or if he chooses to approach it from just a different angle or delay it or something like that, just wonder if there's anything there for us to kind of evaluate in ourselves. Like, are we looking to force Jesus into an existing structure? Oh, I think it's like a constant battle, not necessarily with every single person, but it's, I think I see a lot where people have a tough time conforming their lives to Christ and they really want to like change what the Bible says. They really want to say, I mean, heard it plenty of times where it's like, well, the Bible's outdated or the Bible just needs, the Bible needs to become more progressive or whatever like the sentiment is. It's like that's just nuts. And yet I think that that is kind of tale as old as time, is wanting the Bible to mold to our feelings rather than our feelings and the reality molding to what truth is. Which is so ironic because if you think about it like if you could make him be king against his own will, like, what authority does he have anyway? Right. And if we could make God out of our own image, what authority is there really for this so-called God? Like, how is he even, how does he even exist as God then? If it's like of our own doing. It follows what we want. Right? Yeah, like, that's like, I think it's like human nature to want to be under authority, ironically. Like, I know that we want freedom and liberty, but we love, like, that's why we crave a king. That's why for, you know, centuries, Israelites have craved a king. Like, make us like the others because they have kings and they want a king. And I even think about like if we lived in the same country without the authorities that we have and the government that we have, like how actually terrifying that would be to live in a state where, like, everybody just does whatever comes into their head. I don't know. Like, there's just, like, we want that, and we desire that, really. But, yeah. And it's interesting that, like, Jesus was like, but, like, you're, like, it's, you're just contorting it. Like, what is actually what he came to do. And it is a heavenly kingdom that he is ruler over. It doesn't mean that he couldn't have been an earthly king, but it just, it was just so much more. They just completely missed it, you know? Right. Yeah. If you can make Jesus king, then you can unmake Jesus king. And it seems like it's, and not to criticize the way some people present it, but that is kind of the phrase that is used sometimes. Are you ready to make Jesus Lord? And I understand that. Right. I understand the call, but— But he is, whether you like it or not. Right. Sorry. I'll just say it. I mean. To allow him. It's just a little verbal thing where I know that there's no bad intentions, I'm sure, in phrasing it that way. But I just mean, like, it seems like there would be a more respectful approach to say that as if, are you, maybe it's, are you ready to submit to Christ's lordship? Are you ready to, just the thought of making something, it just makes it sound very similar to what these people were going to do. Right? They were going to make Jesus their king. And from that, he actually withdrew. Right? Right. Yeah. And so, is there another approach? Is there a more accurate approach, appropriate approach? Like what it means to make him king? You know what I mean? Yeah. And this, like, I, funnily enough, I feel like this is kind of what we talked about at church today, but there was this idea of, like, we don't try harder, but we surrender better, I guess. Like, I don't know if "better" is the right word, but, like, it was less about us, like, trying to do—do, do, do, or make God do these things, so much as, like, it really is about me surrendering my will. And I was only kidding when I said he's, whether you like it or not, that was a joke. But. Well, maybe the sentiment is, like, are you ready to accept the fact that Jesus is lord of your life? Right. Maybe something along those lines. Because our will is definitely involved in that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, you go. No. I was gonna say, I think, like, the way that he is actually king, like, for us, not because we make him so, but the way he is, he, like, he the irony, I think a lot of it is he wants to lift all of us up. And I go back to Bible verses like, humble yourself and you'll be exalted at the proper time, and how Jesus actually, or actually God, almighty God, will actually make us co-heirs with Christ. He'll kind of, because in Christ we become adopted sons and daughters and how we become part of the kingdom in a way that we, I mean, it still blows my mind to think that we become one with Christ, that to even inherit God's promise. And so, the king, like, takes care of, perfectly, of the kingdom and, or the people in the kingdom. And so, we're lifted to such a high degree that a lot of, I don't think a lot of us can really wrap our mind around what it means to allow Jesus to be king because we ourselves become, what we can infer from the Bible, is that we become like a priestly people. What is it? Like, priests, prophets and kings. Like, we become also like the people who prophesy and kings in the sense of from Jesus' throne. Right, heir to the throne. So that we partake. Heirs of the throne. Thank you. So that's, I think that was the point I wanted to express there. All right. Can I kick something, kick a can and then see what you guys think about this? Love that. Give it a good kick. Give it a boot. I was thinking about this idea of like, so the idea of force and how God won't force anything on us, but we have to continually respond and say yes to the Lord. And I was thinking of like husbands and wives and kind of like that image in Ephesians of intimacy and the husband and wife and how it's like a continuous process. It's not like they just one day, on the wedding day, people just get married once. They say yes to each other once, and then there's nothing you ever have to do again because it's like, oh, we're already married, so I don't have to do anything. We still have to actively choose God's will, or to will God's will. I think that's an active choice. And we have to want what God wants. We have to do what God wants. You know, like, those who obey, those who hear my voice will obey my commands and all this stuff. So, I just compare that to husbands and wives, how they're actively in relationship, responsive and not just like, oh, you know, I'm saved, so there's nothing I need to do anymore kind of a thing, you know? Yeah. And I think that's kind of the difference between being like coerced into or forced into to following versus choosing to. Right. Because being forced into it. There's a lot of difficulties that come with being forced into doing something. And psychologically, why free will is better than force, so free will is, Higher motivation: you care more about the goals you pick yourself. Personal growth: making choices teaches you how to solve problems. Better mood: freedom makes people feel happier and satisfied. And then there's Long results: habits formed by choice last much longer. And then why force fails. Loss of control: people hate feeling trapped or pushed around. Anger: force makes people mad and rebellious. No real change: people stop the good behavior the second the pressure goes away. And then High stress: force creates fear and worry instead of learning. And so, if you're forced to do something, then that's, it's going, it's almost like the parable of the seeds. Eventually, like quickly it's going to, it's not going to produce anything. Because if it's, if the soil is loss of control, anger, no change, high stress, that's not good soil. So yeah, it said in Deuteronomy there, you must listen to him. And Jesus is, gives a lot of teachings. And that's really how much of the growth of the church happens. Jesus at, in the last chapter of Matthew, he's actually telling people to go out and teach people, make disciples. Just there's not a lot of forcing happening, right? So, isn't that kind of fascinating how that's how a lot of the growth takes place and faith takes place is by that initial listening? Right? Faith comes by hearing and discipling, teaching. It's like, it's very gradual and non-forceful. Right? Yeah. And there's so many people that actually are resistant even to that. They say that's forcing them. It's an interesting take on that. Things could be a lot more forceful than that. That word does not mean what you think it means. And so, that's such a, kind of a gentle approach. And it's so much in line with Jesus' other ministry where he's actually like, do you want to be healed? Do you want, do you believe that I can do this, is how he phrases some of his approaches to people in ministry. So, any thoughts on just how that's so in alignment with his other ministry, is that he actually, it's so non-forceful, in a sense? Well, yeah, and I think that's why he also, there's so much love involved in when Jesus says, if you want to follow me, love. Because if you're going to be teaching, if people are going to be hearing you, it, I mean it even says speak truth in love. And so, yeah, if you're not going to be doing anything by force but by teaching and by them hearing what you have to say or by them seeing you live your life, if it's not done in love, then it will be just, be like just noise. People won't—which is kind of interesting. If that's the only way that people will come to Christ is through love and hearing obviously the good word and obviously the Holy Spirit doing his job in the individual, then people aren't going to get saved. But it's kind of, it's kind of interesting. So, they, there has to be a, an open door for people to hear what's being taught. And it seems like the open door is love. And then his call is for people to follow him. So that's also a very non forceful way. I mean there's in this account here or right around it, after he is talking about he's the bread of life and so forth, a lot of people choose to stop following him, so it's non forceful. It's like do they follow? Do they not follow? Do they, what will they do? You know? Well and it goes back to the free will thing too because people have a choice. If it's not by force, then they have to choose. And so, there's a few Scriptures that came into mind there. Matthew 16:24, he's kind of alluded to that, And then Jesus said to "his disciples, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'" Matthew 11:28, "'Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give'" them rest. So, first we have let them "'deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'" So, it's an action, but it's not, you're not compelled to do it. "'Come to me, all who labor,'" so, then there's that. Then Revelation 3:20, "'Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in ... and eat with him, and he with me.'" So, "'hears my voice'" and "'opens,'" so an action. Romans 10:9, "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." So, you have to confess, "if you confess with your mouth." So, it's all if. There's a lot of ifs in there. "'If anyone,'" "if you confess," there's a, there's an invitation to "'come to me.'" And so, it's, that's not force, but it's, it's a decision that still needs to be made. John 14:15 says, “'If you love me, obey my commands.'" But it's because you want to, not because you're forced to. Exactly. You're not. "'If you love me.'" Yes. Yeah. You're not compelled to do it. You're not forced to do it. It's an invitation to willingly do it. Yeah. I'm also reminded again of John 15 where he says, John 15:15, where he says, "'No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.'" And it's just a beautiful way of how the Lord wants to relate to us. Not as servants, just tell you what to do, don't care what you think, just go do it. But actually inviting us into relationship and it's just been a journey I've been on is like relating to God not as just, oh, just tell me what to do. But actually, oh, you want to hear my opinion? You want to co-labor with me? You want to design something together with me? It's just such a beautiful way that he wants to relate to us. Yeah. And Jesus heard from God and the Bible says, listen to Jesus. So, it's like that's a direct line to God himself. In John 6 when people are referring to that prophet, and that takes you back to Deuteronomy where they're talking about the voice of God at the mountain. Hebrews mentions that account there in chapter 12. And it seems relevant to this. And I'll kind of point out some similarities here, but Hebrews 12 starting in verse 18, "For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them." So that was mentioned in that Deuteronomy 18, right? On to verse 25, "See that you do not refuse him who is speaking." And so, Father said, listen to him, listen to Jesus. Right? It goes on to say verse 26, "At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, 'Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.' This phrase, 'Yet once more,' indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain." And this is where it ties into the king part. "Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire." So, it's almost like if they wanted to make him king, that's make him king of a kingdom that can be shaken. That that was their extent of their understanding of that position. And yet Jesus refuses that. He's King of a kingdom which cannot be shaken, which he talks about with Pilate, which is a fascinating dialogue of, if you've read that. He talks about being a king not of this world. And Pilate just, he's like, what is that? And he actually tries to tell the people, this is your king. “'Behold your King!'” And they just, they wanted him crucified, the people. So. So, what does it look like to increase in God's kingdom, like, while we're on earth? I don't know. Oh, well, it's to live as he, as he told us to and to do what he would want us to do. And I guess if there was, if God's kingdom is at least, to some extent, opposite of what earthly kingdoms are, you know, his commandments are, love God, love your neighbor, love your enemies. So, opposite perhaps of earthly kings and kingdoms. Serving others. And just some examples, Jesus washed the feet of his followers. He said, true leaders must act like a servant. Giving up power. Earthly kings use armies to take power, Jesus laid down his life willingly. Weakness as strength. Jesus won a spiritual victory through his death on the cross. Early rulers saw the cross as total defeat. And loving the poor. Jesus came from a humble family. He praised the poor and the weak, and he told people to look after the poor and to care for them. So not to say that no leaders or kings look at these things and, you know, act in that way, but it is definitely opposite of perhaps what traditional, like, rulership might look like. So, I suppose that would be something that we are to do is to do those things: serve, giving up power, weakness as strength, loving the poor. Yeah. Very counterculture cultural. Yeah. I just think it's interesting that what happened right before this was the feeding of the 5,000. And so, the people saw Jesus do something miraculous, and they were like, whoa, well, if this guy can do this, then there's a good chance that he can be even more than just a typical king, because he's got some, like, crazy powers, too. And so, you match that with just their whole history of being ruled over for so many years. First, I mean, there's a Babylonian empire, the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and now the Roman Empire. And so, I guess it's not to just totally, like, throw them all under the bus and just being like, you know, well you just want just whatever you want. But, like, I think desperation also brings about some poor choices sometimes. And I think they were desperate and they saw somebody doing something amazing. And what's interesting is the fact that the Bible says that the signs are to point towards Jesus. They were close. The signs pointed them towards something, but it ended up pointing them towards an earthly king and not the king who Christ actually is. And so, again, it's close, but not quite. So, yeah, the sign did point them in a direction, but it wasn't the way that Jesus had wanted or where to point specifically. I feel like I remember hearing at some point that they were, they, I mean, a lot of them had the right idea that Jesus be the Messiah, the prophet they spoke of, but that some of them were waiting still on an earthly ruler. They did think that that's what he was going to do. Right. You know? Yeah. I just think it's also weird that, like, by force, it's like a, by violence. So, it's like. Yeah. You're gonna rule us. Punch in the face. You're gonna rule us. Punch in the face. Like, do it. I don't know if that's what it means exactly, but it's weird to say, I'm gonna make you leader by force. Yeah. By violent force. I'm not sure who the violence is against, but, like, I wouldn't want to be anybody's king who would, like, beat me up to get there. Yeah. That's just using you at that point. For sure. I think, Robyn, something that you said earlier was, like, the people were expecting God to show up a certain way, and it just made me think, like, where are there places in our lives where we're expecting God to show up in this way that we actually miss what he's actually doing, and we actually miss how we could be joining in another way. So just a thought. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You know what I like about the multiplication of the loaves is how he, because he could have just suddenly said, here's 5,000, you know, he could have just provided everything just on his own initiative. But I love that he, like, uses what the disciples have. So, it's like, just bring me what you got, and what do you, what, you know, just show me what you got. I'll do something with that. And I like that because that's relationship. Yeah. He could have just made them feel full. Well, yeah. That's right. Exactly. All of a sudden people are like, I'm not really hungry anymore. That's weird. Exactly. Yeah. Actually, I feel full. Exactly. Leave it to you to be like the most like this is, we're gonna be as efficient as possible. There's like, no, there's no middle part here. I just gained three pounds. What the heck? We don't need to feed each other. Hunger's gone forever. We don't need leftovers. We don't need to pick up later. I taste hummus. Right. That's fun. Well, and like God had provided manna, you know, in the wilderness so many times before, like, that, I would have, I think if it were me, I might have assumed that that would be how he'd do it again, like he'd just manna from heaven. But. Well, any closing thoughts as we wrap up this topic of force? Yeah, I think a closing thought it's just I think that we've kind of shared a little bit—oh, do you have something? No. Oh. Yeah, just a closing thought. I think that we've kind of alluded to it a little bit. But just the thought, like, not what I want, but what God wants and not to create something by force in my own life. Barnes' notes on the Bible says, "When Jesus perceived," so, he's kind of highlighting that point, "They were satisfied by the miracle that he was the Messiah. They supposed that the Messiah was to be a temporal prince. They saw that Jesus was retiring, unambitious, and indisposed to assume the [rank] of office. They thought, therefore, that they would proclaim him as the long-expected king, and constrain him to assume the character and titles of an earthly prince. Men often attempt to dictate to God, and suppose that they understand what is right better than he does. They are fond of pomp and power, but Jesus sought retirement, and evinced profound humility. Though he had claims to the honor and gratitude of the nation, yet he sought it not in this way; nor did it evince a proper spirit in his followers when they sought to advance him to a place of external splendor and regal authority." And so, just going back to where it says, "Men often attempt to dictate to God, and suppose that they understand what is right better than he does." I guess it's just my prayer, hopefully somewhat even close to what Jesus prayed in the garden—you know, not my will, but yours be done—I think that's a really important thing for all believers just to keep in the back of their mind and to make it a normal part of their prayer. Just, God, not my will, but yours be done. Because my will, it's going to turn into, I mean, each of us can put ourselves into that mob, easy. And if we can't imagine ourselves being in that mob, then we've got bigger problems because we're capable of everything and worse. So, I mean, we are capable of killing Jesus, I mean, to say to crucify him, obviously he laid down willingly, but we can put ourselves into every quote, unquote nemesis throughout Scripture. And so, just that humility of saying, like, God, I don't know what's best for me. You do. So, not my will, but yours be done. Yeah, I had a similar closing thought of just encouraging those who are watching to spend some time in reflection, you know, with the Lord in just thinking, where in my life might I be trying to force my own expectations or desires upon God and where might he be inviting me to surrender to his ways? And one of the Scriptures that we often quote is, "Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." And I think oftentimes it's easy to focus on the second part: oh, God's just going to give with me the desires of my heart. But there's a part about delighting yourself in the Lord first. And I think it's through choosing to delight ourselves in the Lord and His ways and how he thinks about things and his thoughts that actually changes and syncs up our desires to his, not his desires to ours. So, leave it that. Yeah, mine, for me, I thought of like, you know, how God loves us so much that he does respect our own free will and our own response to however we respond to him and how he just lets us. Like, of course he wants everyone to be saved, but people choose their own choices. And I think he respects that. And I think there's something about the free will that like, because people always say, well, if God was so loving, like, why do we have hunger? Why do we have world hunger? Why do we have kids who, right, are starving to death in Africa? And people will use that almost like, as a, as an obvious defense of, like, well, there is no God because what kind of cruel God would allow this stuff? But it's like, if you think about it, it's really like it's on us. It's like, how do we respond as people, as humanity? You know, we mistreat each other. There's plenty of food to go around in the whole world, but we just don't, we're not set up that way because of greed. Anyway, that's a whole 'nother podcast. But just coming back to the idea of force and how we have to respond and be willing and loving back and allow God's love to flow through us. And just kind of summing up the thought of, like, that relationship growth as like a husband and wife, I do think there's kind of an intimacy, too, that God continuously wants us to grow closer to him and how we can increase in that, kind of like husbands and wives becoming, or just going deeper and deeper and becoming just not, they're not always going to stay at where they started, just say yes once and then just kind of become neutral and stale. Like, you have to keep working at it. And obviously I'm not married, but I know that that is true. I know that it's hard work for couples, for a lot of couples. But what I mean is, I feel like that's the same with God. I feel like our relationship has to be poured into and tended to. And so, I think that there's a, like a cooperation that, like, God can, it's his presence. Not—I'm not saying like my holiness, but I think we, but letting God be present kind of like as a temple, you know, when the Bible calls our bodies like a temple to the Holy Spirit. Right. Like, we could all be the, whatever, the thief on the cross or like, we could all do the opposite. But I think God wants to grow his presence inside each and every one of us. Yeah. I think that's an invitation from him that I get. Yeah. You can't just say I do and then live your separate lives. Exactly. That's not a relationship. Exactly. Yeah. I think my final thought is probably pretty similar to my opening thought and probably pretty similar to what you guys were already just saying there, but just kind of reflecting again that I think that they had it right in that they recognized him as the prophet that Moses spoke about. And I think that we can often do that same thing. We can get like, an idea in our head and a click on, like, yes, God is on this thing. And then we can so quickly jump in and try and take the reins. And I don't think there's anything wrong with, like, I don't think there's anything wrong with their desire to have Jesus be king. Like, I just, I, but I think that the wrongness came in when they tried to take control and they tried to do something that God then was not on. That was not God's purpose for Jesus in that moment. And so probably pretty similar to what you guys are talking about is just that idea of, like, I'm not in control. And even with what you're talking about as far as marriage, like, the point, a lot of the time for us surrendering to the Lord in this way is to increase in that intimacy with him. Like, it builds trust and it builds ultimately that relationship with him is what he truly wants from us. Like, I don't think that he just wants our submission, that it's not like he just wants control. It's that he wants to be proven that he is as trustworthy as he says he is. And then the way that we come to know that, though, is by risking, like, letting go of our own control and submitting to what he says. And on occasion, what I want comes into alignment with what he wants, but it's usually after submitting what I first wanted. You know what I mean? Like, if my will always match his, I wouldn't have to submit necessarily, like, because we'd be on the same page. And so, yeah, I guess my closing thought really is that just like, reminding myself, like, yeah, I may be able to recognize that God is on a certain situation and how am I going to respond to that is to make sure that I'm still submitting to him in that he is, you know, being the one that's driving it, I guess. So. All right, great. Well, that wraps up this topic of force. Thank you, panelists. Thank you, listeners. Please like and subscribe if you're so inclined. Please be inclined. We look forward to another episode soon. May the force not be with you. Take care everybody. Thank you for listening to The Defined Podcast w/ Dr. Jon et al. If you enjoyed what you heard, we invite you to, like, share, subscribe and give a five-star rating. Find us online at TheDefinedPodcast.com.